AK or AR????

[makarov]

AK or AR????

I heard about many tests AK in USA in matching with AR-15. These tests explicitly are rotined in the book « The Black rifle (M16)”. There is always written, that AK always loses tests.
What YOU think of it?
In Russia now do(make) AK -101 and AK -102 under the cartridge NATO (5,56x45). Russia is off-the shelf to sell for army of USA till $ 200 for 1 AK. I think, that it would be very expedient, than to buy for army of USA AR-15 (M16A2) in some times more dearly(more expensively).

It would be interesting to learn(find out), that YOU think of it.

Yours faithfully Vladimir Makarov

[imanaknut]

I have always believed that it is better to have 5 or more very good weapons then have one very expensive high technology weapon. For the money, you can arm more than 6 soldiers with an AK to go against one soldier with an AR for the same price. Even though some would argue that the AR is more accurate than an AK, with 6 times the fire power, I do not think that it matters.

[Swarzkopf]

Performance? Eh....

I like the way the AK looks and feels better, and since I'm not a combat soilder thats enough for me. :)

[imanaknut]

Totally agree, Swarzkopf, the AK just happens to be the perfect size for me and I like the look as well, and as my daughter found out this past Monday, a little mud will not stop an AK-74! Gotta love it!!!

[Swarzkopf]

At the risk of sounding corny, I don't think they're a sweeter looking rifle than a clean, basic AKM. I look at the wood and metal of the AK and then the AR just looks boring and plain in all black.

[confederate]

I joined the USMC back when the hostages were taken in Beruit and was brained washed that the AK was a "piece of sh*t", I soon found out that the M16A1 was the "POS" or I should say not reliable. I still didn't believe that the AK was any good. In "89 my youngest brother bought a SKS...hell, I wouldn't shoot that thing to save my life till one day after a few I got the nerve to shoot it...I was totally impressed! BUT, I still wouldn't try an AK.

Finally in '93 a gent was wanting to trade his milled MAK90 for one of my Browning Hi-Powers. I had told him many time "Hell No!". Well he offered it to me one more time except this time he would throw in a 75rnd drum......75rnd drum! It didn't take much for me to agree on the trade after that. Then came that very day...my nerves were shaky...my palms sweaty....many flash backs from the day that this was a "POS" .....bang....dang man!....bang, bang.....heck, this ain't bad. I was hittin every thing I was aiming at and it felt and functioned like a dream and I mean the best dream I could have ever dreamt. Bang, Bang, Bang...I was in LOVE! Ever since then I have been nothin but about the AK. Sure I've owned a few AR since and will again...of course for tradin purposes ONLY:D

The AK isn't the most accurate as far as a bench rested AR on paper goes...but when I go out and shoot with those guy's with thier AR's, I hit what ever I aim at AND I shoot better than the guys with thier AR's on paper (not benched) and it burns them to no end;)

The AK is the most reliable combat rifle in the field today. The US doesn't want them because that would mean that a cold war weapon is far better and thier sales would slip even more than they already have.

Thanks for askin.

[LittleJacek]

M16 is a POS?




LittleJacek

[confederate]

M16 a POS? Yes! Even today as it is used in Afganistan, it's a POS or not reliable. The GI's that I talk to today say it's always having to be cleaned from all the sand that gets caught in it, if it's not keep wrapped and cleaned, as if the experiance in Kuwait wasn't enough.

Do you want a weapon like this? I shoot with guys that have nothing but AR's. They clean them things every time they come back from the range because they know that it will malfunction if they don't. Now mind you, these guys are Veterans and they'll tell you the AK is more RELIABLE. The most I've ever shot through one AK with out cleaning it is 2000 rnds only because it was looking pretty bad. I'm not talking about just shooting at the range but actually goin up in the hills where all the things that happen in the field can happen...the AK is more RELIABLE.

If I offend anyone, I appoligize now. This is just from my experiance, from what I've been told and from what I've read.

[RJ Shooter]

Originally posted by confederate
M16 a POS? Yes!Hmmmmm. I live in Florida. Nothin' but sand and salt everywhere too. I have almost 1K rounds though my AR have not cleaned it internally once, and have not experienced a single hiccup.

http://www.netwalk.com/~rjandla/aknet/m4a3.jpg

btw, I know a few in Afghanland and they haven't had any trouble with theirs. Other than long-range shots (which the AK isn't any better at), no real complaints at all!

There are also a few Combat Arms vets from Vietnam and Desert Storm that are here in the forums and have had no real complaints about the 16 either.

Interesting...

[LittleJacek]

When and if you are in Combat conditions you should clean your rifle daily no matter what type it is...... everybody has time to clean : ) but i do agree that an ak can take a shit beating and still go click. More so than an AR. but we also aren't a conscript army filled with people who don't want to be there.... so having to maintain the rifle isn't a problem. Still never should have made a total switch to the 16 from the 14......... Best rifle ever designed.... bar none.




LittleJacek

[confederate]

M14 Main Battle Rifle:D

[LittleJacek]

yesssssssss : )



LittleJacek

[timkel]

Interesting question.
IMHO if compared the the current U.S. M-4 rifle.
The Russian AK-101 is more reliable in combat conditions, just as accurate and available at a much lower cost.
http://www.hunting-pictures.com/members/timkel/AK-101-2pic.jpg

[confederate]

"Small Arms Review" Put out an article on the M4 2 issues(?) back that said they were having problems with the rifle and were gonna change the barrel length(?). It wasn't a complete article and it mentioned a future article because all the details haven't come in.

Of course with everything, there are exceptions. I too have heard many stories personal and second hand about Vet's who say they haven't had a problem with the M16.

[Fallschirmjäger]

What RJ said. I participated in Desert Shield/Storm Part 1 and we didn't have issues with our M16A2's. If you clean it and prep it for the area (ie. don't oil the shit out of it in the desert), it'll do it's job quite nicely. Between the AK and the AR in battle? I'd prefer the AR, but the AK is great too, just not as accurate.

[confederate]

Gentleman, thank you for allowing this to be discussed and not becoming something of an arguement. I always allow for input, the more there is the better of a picture one recieves.

[RJ Shooter]

Originally posted by confederate
Gentleman, thank you for allowing this to be discussed and not becoming something of an arguement. I always allow for input, the more there is the better of a picture one recieves. Hey, it's always good to have more than one opinion in a conversation. Nobody learns anything if everyone thinks/knows exactly the same thing. :D

Fallschirmjäger, how's the Columbus area? I just moved 1200 miles from there. :p

[confederate]

I shouldn't have used "POS" to describe the M16. It is a very nice rifle. I have found it to be less reliable in extreme conditions.

RJ, you have mail.

[ak74auto]

This is the most civilized AR vs AK debate I have ever read . I hope that this will continue to be a polite dicussion . :D :D :D

[makarov]

The friends, I am happy,
What this subject ” AK or AR???? ” Has appeared interesting to you.

If it is interesting to you - I can tell concerning Russian weapon in fight from my experience.
When the Russian soldier is in a peace service (not war) - it(he) cleans AK each day after dinner - 45 minutes each day. It is the general(common) command on all Russian army. It is the law!!!

But when there is a war or small-sized military conflictings - AK can be utilised 100 and 1000 cartridges without cleaning. I have used AKMS in Afganistan and was so, that I did not clean it(him) very long. Also there were no problems with his(its) reliability. As was and in Chechnia. I saw AK-74, which one was permanently used 3 months in special operations FSB both was not cleaned almost. Also there were no problems. The Russian soldier never worries concerning reliability AK. This very reliable weapon.

In 1985 in Afganistan we had a trophy - M16A1 + 1500 cartridges. We have used it some times in special operations. It was very precise weapon. But …. It(he) should always be cleaned, that it would act reliably. As it was broken, when utilised in short-range I fight. It has appeared not strong. Aluminum - not strong metal.
At the same time we had very few problems with AKM and AKMS. As our enemies always have used against us AKM frequently Chinese.

YOU are right, M16 is more exact, than AK. But … It is meaningful at fire in a peace time (in output(day off)) on a paper or bottles. And it has no any sense on war, when AK or AR will be used on a distance(range) of 5-50 meters. When in fight in the soldier shoot - it(him) terribly and it(he) has no time (and desire) precisely to aim. In this sense not accuracy, and reliability and strength of weapon is very relevant.

As concerning a recoil momentum in a shoulder(arm) - AK-74 has less momentum(pulse,impulse) on 30 %. I think, it as “ +” to AK.

I think, that AR is a good and precise weapon. BUT … this weapon for rich and very much of technically equipped army. And the operatings (war) of this army should be very well organized. If the soldier will appear with this weapon in an extreme situation and far from a home base, it can have other consequences.
Russian weapon (AK) was always planned(glided), as the weapon for the independent soldier, which one can be at war in anyone, most poor and severe constraints. And this weapon should be always reliable and valid.

Yours faithfully, Vladimir Makarov

[makarov]

I as have overlooked(forgotten) to tell, that there is a very large difference between Russian and others AK (China, Poland, Bulgaria, Egypt, Hungary, DDR, Indium, Romania, Yugoslavia and some other countries). The quality Russian AK is much higher, than AK from these countries. In these countries make AK with violation(disturbance) of quality and know-how.

Yours faithfully Vladimir Makarov

[RJ Shooter]

Vladimir, I think it also comes down to the training of the troops using the weapon. And just as you stated about money, budget plays a major part in the training of troops as well.

The US has luckily won every major engagement since Korea in the 1950's. We've had the M16 during that time period, but I think it was training more than the individual weapon.

Thanks again for being in our forums (just like Desantnik and the others) to add a Russian perspective to our discussions!!!! :D

[makarov]

For RJ Shooter

I am always done one`s best to be useful for my friends!!!
And I am happy, that YOU support this section of a forum.

I think, that such forums consolidate friendship between our countries. Also help us to receive many new friends.

Yours faithfully Vladimir Makarov

[turbotrailgod]

the m-16 was first released with out a cleaning kit or a forward assist.I have freinds that remeber the horror on their dead buddies face with a jammed up gun.This all traced back to supposedly using up the old ought 6 powder to load the new 223 round.So we know the gun is ammo sensetive,if your not around good clean ammo the gun soon becomes a club and if SHTF all ammo aint gunna be good.My AKs cycle anything and it dont take a rocket scientist to figure out if your blowing your exhaust back into your firing mechanisims your gunna have trouble,you dont run your car exhaust back into the cab of your car.Look at the feed lips on the clips,tell me which will last longer.The old saying goes if its any good someone will copy it,china did for import back into the usa.OOh the 5 million of our tax payer dollars grip is nice and i do like the trigger and they are good trading stock and look cool.But me throw it in the mud ,bury it,come out shootin it,s the ak for me, the horror of watching my friends go back in time to a scary place and their only way out was to kill someone for their gun,the ak.Maybe you just have to see their eyes and hear their trembling voice.reliability over splattering water melons our paper targets my 02 cents

[RJ Shooter]

Uuuullllllrighty then...

[LittleJacek]

Also Russian and US troops are trained quite differently...... and the rifles fit the training profile quite well on both sides. The US isn't worried about cost when it comes to rifles and supplies But with the Russians having a conscript army that when in combat may see minimal resupply the AK fills that job better than any rifle in the world(except the m14,hehe)....Russians tend to lean toward an overwelming ground blitz where as we lean towards an air blitz followed by ground recon...this produces different standoff distances between our ground troops with the exception of US SF which only the victims know where they were hit from.......that is one of the reasons why 5.45 is of a lower velocity than 5.56.....you can also dump also twice as many rounds down a 5.45 barrel than 5.56 before its shotout. but 5.56 is far superior at distance... and it isn't very good at that. And that is why the M14 is the GOD of rifles : ) hehehe. Its hard for most people to disagree with that : ) all we need is M14's with 2 shot burst.......




LittleJacek

[makarov]

Concerning accuracy AK.
I demonstrate photos - I has used AK-104 (Saiga MK-03) - short barrel and AK-103 (Saiga MK) - lengthy barrel.
It was on 100 meters. It the cartridge 7,63x39 was used.

http://www.hunting-pictures.com/members/timkel/Vladimirtargetpractice1.jpg
http://www.hunting-pictures.com/members/timkel/Vladimirtargetpractice2.jpg

If to use the cartridge 5,45x39 - outcome it will be better.

Yours faithfully Vladimir Makarov

[PeeWee]

Thanks everyone for the great info!

[LittleJacek]

Here is an example of the average 1 of my AR's can do... it isn't milspec so it is cheating i guess, hehehe. With the same upper have put 3 shots through the same hole before.... don't ask me why i didn't save the paper : ( the rounds under the tape were mixed SnB poo ammo... the tight group is with american eagle fmjbt. its just under an inch at 100 yards.

http://image1ex.villagephotos.com/pubimage.asp?id_=1260493

Mak you might want to try and get a hold of some winchester 7.62x39......they are expensive but i bet your groups would be cut in half.



LittleJacek

[LittleJacek]

OMG i want that 104 in your picture : )



LittleJacek

[RJ Shooter]

Originally posted by LittleJacek
OMG i want that 104 in your picture :)Ditto that!!!!

[makarov]

I have used the cheapest cartridges for the test. It not military, are civil cartridges. The military cartridges have the best characteristics and the outcome will be as better.

If to use to optician - outcome it will be better.

If to use 5,45x39, the outcome will be even better. I think, that it is worse, than AR. But close to AR.

I know, that the American cartridges very precise. But Russian cartridges have low accuracy, but very high reliability - (discard 0,002 %- military cartridges). What discard have the military American cartridges?

In Russia to buy AK-104 (Saiga MK-03) for individual(private) usage (for the citizens of Russia) without problems. It NO automatic (full) of a light(fire). You buy the licence ($ 0,7) and buy AK-104 (Saiga MK-03) - about $230- $ 250.

The precise copy AK-104 - air rifle Yunker 2 is freely sold.

Vladimir Makarov

[confederate]

NICE!!


How does the AK104 compare to the AK102 on accuracy?

[LittleJacek]

What we really need to have imported are some Bizons..... People would go ape over those here. Probably in 9mm para as well to make the cartridges easy to find and cheap as well.

The thing i like about 5.45 the most is its tapered case design and long protruding bullet that aid in feeding and overall reliability... that was a very good Russian design decision : )



LittleJacek

[LittleJacek]

Here is my Chinese 56s rare sidefolder i like the classic 47' heavy barrel a bit more than the akm barrel but it does make it a bit more heavy..... I "Euro-ized" it a bit.... it easily has exceptable accuracy using Wolf ammo...It is my favorite ak that i own.... I also put a 74 style break and 24mm adapter on it and it cuts the recoil down to nearly nothing. Infact my M4 has more muzzle rise than this weapon. Mak notice the wood and magazine?? hehehe

http://image1ex.villagephotos.com/pubimage.asp?id_=1265291

http://image1ex.villagephotos.com/pubimage.asp?id_=1265290


LittleJacek

[makarov]

You can see below photos of an air rifle “ Yunker 2 ” (AK-104) and MMG AKS-74U is is sold freely.

http://mmaakkaarr.boom.ru/ak6.jpg
http://mmaakkaarr.boom.ru/mmg8.ipg

Yours faithfully Vladimir Makarov

[makarov]

LittleJacek,

YOU are right, BIZON - very pleasant thing. I participat in large tests BIZIN. And it really is very pleasant. It has now different versions of cartridges without problems (9x17, 9x18, 9x19 (PARA)). I have many interesting photos, but I have problems for the publication them here. My large friend Timkel helps me very much in it.

Surprised, but in Russia there is no money what to do(make) mass extension(issue) BIZON. This weapon has passed tests, the positive takes, but … are obtained very much

I well know Viktor Kalaschnikov (designer BIZON) and it(he) prolongs to work above this weapon.

If this subject (BIZON) is interesting to many - we can create a separate subject “BIZON” and speak much about it.

I had a contact to the Russian designers of cartridges and they speak, that have used the largest achievements at creation 5,45x39. As all problems and errors with the cartridge 5,56 were taken into account(discounted). There is a good Russian saying: ” It is good to study on another's errors ”.

I think, that you have Chinese AK model 56S-2. You have established here as Russian tree (AKM) and a compensator of a light(fire) (type AK-74). You as have no Russian mags.
It is good activity and I am glad together with you.

Vladimir Makarov

[timkel]

Vladimir,
I have also suspected that the 7.62x39 cartridges being sold in the US civilian market are of low quality.
Higher quality 7.62 ammunition would improve accuracy somewhat.
Here are the pics that go with your post above.
http://www.hunting-pictures.com/members/timkel/ak6vlad2.jpg
http://www.hunting-pictures.com/members/timkel/AK6vlad3.jpg

[makarov]

TEST

YOU see this photo?

With large words of thanks Vladimir Makarov

[confederate]

A gentleman came in where I work. He said he was a unit armourer in the Army (still active). He said that he only knew of problems relating to improper care. Carbon build up, mag lip problems were the main concern. He also agreed that the M16/M4 were maintanance oriented.

Boots were the biggest complaint from Afganistan. They would wear out in 3 weeks from the rocks. Danner/SOG? had designed some for the Marines and the Army has recieved them also.

[LittleJacek]

Wow that tubular magazine is brilliant! What is its capacity?

And the magazine in my 56s is a real Russian mag. very very very rare here. even though it has the flat feed lips it still fit in my 56s... all of my other ak's have the "U" shaped extrusion on the trunnion except my 56s.. so luckily i didn't need to modify the magazine : )

Your M3's would make absolutely perfect home defense weapons...... do you know what their fragmentation range is with the shorter barrels in 5.45?

Its too bad Russian can't export its military grade ammunition to the US : ( Maybe someday our countries can exchange items freely.

I have a question Mak... Are M1A/M14's popular at all in Russia? or are they viewed as to unwieldly and large? Just curious : )



LittleJacek

[BARN8/11]

Originally posted by LittleJacek
Wow that tubular magazine is brilliant! What is its capacity?



I believe 64 rounds. If my thinking is correct. Good idea regardless.

Makarov, Thanks for sharing your info.

[War Dawg]

I have read all the post and feel its what normally one has been trained on.Normally. I have just read (The Black Rifle " M16 Retrospective " ) .It gives alot of info and testing and problems and improvements to the M16.The Nam factor was a rifle that was thrown into combat with out proper testing.It was a new design. Mistakes was made in what was best for it and the troops. The ARMY Armory people asked that it be made with a chromed chamber and bore. That was turned down to save money.They produced the ammo with ball powder against Stoners advice.The powder was nasty and left a deposite in the gas tube/chamber.Also the brass they used was a little soft . Also with the use of Ball powder it speed up cycle rate. That would have the timeing of the action off.There fore you would be proned to haveing more FTE . And on top of that untrained soldiers on the weapon.That led to the storys from Nam.The rifles not entirly at fault.It was never put through the proper tests before put into battle. And also the last time I checked the M16 was being sold at about $400 a rifle to the U.S. That was a couple of years ago but the price shouldn't moved much. If the AK was $200 a rifle that would only be 2 AK's to 1 M16.Not 6 to 1 . Part 1 War Dawg

[War Dawg]

Now I have a cousin in Special Forces group . I have talked to him on the holidays when he comes home and he says they have no problems with the M4 . I have carried the M16A1 and the M16A2 . I like the A2 better.But hated the 3 round burst.Rather have the option of full auto.Like before stated the politics get involved and not what the soldier truly needs. I had no problems with any of the two I carried.My A1 had the 203 attached.Had my own artillery.He he he .. I desert train mostly with the A2 and had no problems with it and sand.I did wipe it off once a day.Two minuets of my time. The U.S. military doctrine is clean it and clean it some more. Thats for any weapon system. Even the AK's that was brought out to get real time with was always clean very well after use. The M16 is a very effective weapon system.Very deadly.And above average in reliablity. But not as reliable as an AK.But in most other catergory it tops the AK . I hate the safety.Thats praboly the biggest complaint from me.Not user friendly.There been many ambushes spoiled because an VC/ NVA slide there safty off and our boys heard the clack . Now to round this out as not an AK bashing, I love the AK. I would love to meet the man. I have 4 Civy legal AK's .A SSR 85B , Romain SAR 1 , Romainian SAR2, and a Bulgie AK 74 . They are very fun to shoot and cheap.I just got a Kobra Gen 2 optic for the Bulgie 74.But if today I was to head out for battle the choice would be M16A2 ,then M14, AK 74 , AK 47 .To end this my rifle that guards my home, wife and kids is the Romanian SAR 2 . It is simple and my wife can use it will little and or no training. I showed her how to put the mag in and charge the bolt.She knows what to do with it from there. :cool:

[War Dawg]

I forgot to say this is based on my opinion.I served with the U.S. ARMY 4/9th FA ( Pershing II NUKES ) & 4/23rd INFATRY ( Light attack ) 1985-1989 . Hope everybody has a great New Year. War Dawg

[RomanStepanov]

I've shot both brilliant weapons.

I shot the Russian AKM, AK-74, AKSU and the RPK-74

and I shot real true American military M-16A2s and M4s bot semi, burst and FA versions of all.

M-16 is very comfortble to all people, I love M-16's accuracy and the extras you can put on, and universal parts. Basically tricking out the M16 for your standarts and comofrt is what I love about the M16. However I do believe it's less reliable rifle in the nasty, dirty, adrenaline high combat.

I've been in Chechnya and used AK-74M, and AKS-74. Though I preffer the solid stock version of AK-74, I think the cartridge is little bit weak. Though its been called the poison bullet, I believe 5.56 is much better. The biggest thing I found about real life combat was - You heart skips beats when 2 things happen. Your Ammo is gone in the magazine and the most of all - it choked and didn't go bang while jaming inside. This got many US troops killed in Vietnam. Also US government sent the M16A2s to test in the field against the Soviets in 1980's, the mudjaheds quickly found out that the rifle requires more care and attention. Since the laziness of the mudjaheds taking a single shower, I doubt they wanted to clean their guns more then themselves.

In Chechnya during fall-winter-spring season the climate was the worst. Lack of well maintained military bases for Russian troops made us to fall in love with our AKs. Most of the time we would be very exosted after constant relocations, moving hundreds of pounds of junk around all day, and of course the combat wears you out to the point where you just want to sit down, start a cigarete, and think about WHAT THE FUCK JUST HAPPENED!!! After an hour of realizing that you just been in combat, and saw an hour of human life dissapear like it was nothing, you start thinking about what you just saw. There goes 3 hours of sitting there, and finally it hits you to the point where you just want to cry out loud, and crawl under your baby bed. Even the officers, and higher authorities if survived are too busy making sure their soldiers are all in place, and nobody is seriously hurt. Some people get more adrenaline and start cleaning their guns right after the fight is over, and the barrel is still smoking. So the most of us don't have the time to dissasmble the rifle completely and clean it spotless.

I think I went 3 weeks before our officer highly recomended that I look inside of my reciever and noticed the buildup of junk, especially after 8-10 magazines on full auto for 3 and half weeks.

So I will take the AK in combat against any enemy with any rifle any time. If enemies invade my country Russia, I;ll go back to fight for her, and will take the AK with pleasure. If an enemy atacks America, with my respect and love of this country, I will take my AKM with pride and fight my American brother's enemies.

But during peace time, I enjoy them both with much love.

Here is a target of yesterdays shooting at Casa Grande range. Took my Half Russian Half Maadi AKM and tested myself.
I placed this small pistol target ammo at 300 yards, and emtpied a 30 round magazine in it. 1 second interval between shots. Got 9 in the cirle, 2 on the target, and the rest around it on the 1'x1' board.
http://image1ex.villagephotos.com/pubimage.asp?id_=1272649

[yasnevo]

You mean 300cm, right?

I will bet you a case of Baltika that this is not 300 yards....

Come on...a friendly wager.... a bet between friends...

Davai Roma...davai!

Yasnevo

[yasnevo]

Okay, perhaps it was at 300 yards...but I bet that 100 rounds were expended to get these hits.

Round for round I would like to challenge your AK to my AR, Roman... for a case of Baltika....

Yasnevo

[Nicole]

Not to brag...

http://rogerl.0catch.com/images/Nicoleshoot2.jpg

^but this is my group at 25 meters...and it wasn't the easiest thing in the world to see.
I was using the AR as well. :D

Hi yasnevo. http://tweetz.virtualave.net/smilies/hug.gif

[RomanStepanov]

THE BET IS ON !!!!!

Dude my girlfriend, and her father was there with us.

BUt I will take your bet, accept AK vs AK

No AR shit vs AK

Name the place and time !

[RomanStepanov]

Our good friend Jacek can also confirm me hitting a half an inch pole at 20-25 yards twice out of 8 shots. Also a tiny little orange steel sircle for .22s at a range of approx 100 meters.

Can't wait for the bet. Take any of your 7.62x39 rifles and we will go at it !!!!

[yasnevo]

You better eat your Wheaties....

[yasnevo]

"Can't wait for the bet. Take any of your 7.62x39 rifles and we will go at it !!!!"

Sure, when you come up to meet with Chamberlin... bring your AK and we will have our little contest. Round for round.... none of this typical Soviet dumping of a whole case of ammo to get one hit either...

Round for round... I will even get some 25 yard pistol targets and put them at 300 yards for you to shoot at. We can use my laser range finder to determine the exact range.

Since Makarov started the thread about AK vs AR...its too bad you do not wish you have your AK go against my AR... it could be the epic battle...like Rocky against Ivan Drago...

Case of Baltika is cooling now...

Yasnevo

[Chamberlin]

Hey, after you guys are done comparing targets at the end of the
day, I hope there is some Baltika left for you kids :) hehehehe


in your deepest voice: "I will break you."

You guys are funny.

-C

[yasnevo]

I so wanted to go AK against AR, but... our esteemed VDV Vet already said a resounding "Nyet"...so, the xolodnaya voina prodolzhaestya...

Chamberlin, any idea where to get some 25M pistol targets that we can place out at 300 yards???

Yasnevo

[War Dawg]

DesantnikVDV has already stated his experiance with the AR system being more accurrate.And he also said the AK is more reliable in harsh conditions with out haveing the clean it. I will have to agree on all that he said.I personally believe that yasnevo would cut his shot groups in half if shooting skills are equal.I believe I could with my own AR. But both systems do exactly what M.K and E. S. engineered them to do.I have no problem with haveing to carry any of the two into battle if I was call upon .I wouldn't want to have to make a one shot 450meter sniper shot with an AK47.I wouldn't want to take a M16 through a battle with a Sand storm going on.They both have there limits.If you can appreciate the values and what both can do, and do well, hopely you will make it back to base camp to share your battle story.
And by the way whats Baltika? I would guess its beer.What would you think a Georgia boy might find in a Liquor stor thats considered good Russian beer? I don't drink Volka.Im a Jack Daniels guy. Its a nice day outside.I think I will go shooting.AR, AK, M14, Glock, 1911 sounds like a well rounded group. War Dawg

[makarov]

The friends!!!
I have idea.
All of us know, that our policies very artful and clever. When Russian policies are decided by(with) they speak « AK- best ». When the American policies decide, they speak “ AR - best ”. And it can be prolonged indefinitely.

We, member AK-47.net can do(make) independent (independent) tests and to define(determine) true at last!!!
We can invent a system of the tests, test(experience) reliability, accuracy and other parameters.

And to collect wishing to participate in this test together. 5 men - AK and 5 men AR. We can invent the most interesting tests and tests. We can attract in these tests very large attention. Russian and American military (weapon) the log-books will be very much interested in this material. I know many journalists in Russia and USA, which one will be happy to participate in this project.

If this idea is pleasant to you - we can begin to consider the program of the tests.

The empty words - will suffice it is necessary to show the present tests!!!!

Vladimir Makarov

P.S. For LittleJacek

We have no any M14 here in Russia. AR-15 - I saw in rack - $ 2000. It is very expensive. For this money it is possible to buy 6 rifles SVD. I never saw such mags. Send please me on e-mail more in-depth photos. And I shall speak concerning that Russian it, whether or not. Now I think, that it not Russian.

[Swarzkopf]

Sponsored by your organization, with volunteers from this site?

That could get alot of attention...and it'd be really interesting.

If I were a better shot I'd volunteer. :D

[turbotrailgod]

that'd pretty much answer the age old question. I want it on film consumers report even better,soon i'll be out of this wheelchair or i'd be right there EXCELLENT EXCELLENT IDEA
:shtf:

[Nicole]

Are women allowed to participate in this little battle of the pantbulge? ;)
I'd love to show off my shooting skills. :D

[confederate]

Could have a 2 day shoot, the 5 best of each group, AK-AR, shoot the last day. Scoped/un scoped?

AK-AR Custom Rifles welcomed?

Sometime in Febuary when Mr. Kalaschnikov will be in the US to attend?

Oh the possibilities:p

To bad Mr. Stoner wasn't still around. Both MK and ES present would be one heck of an event
:D

[RomanStepanov]

that would be bad ass

[makarov]

Roma,
I do not realize your words (“ that would be bad ass ”). You relinguish to participate in this experiment - competing AK-AR?
I very much calculated on your help and participation in this project.


Sincerely yours, Vladimir Makarov

[landser64]

Hello.
I just had to look in this forum to see what was in here. As an avid lover of fire arms, Especially AK's and AR's, I had to give my 2 cents.
The AR-15(M-16)
Some swear by it-some swear at it:mad: I have done both. When I was active duty in Europe, I had some really HORRIBLE feed jams on the range with my M-16A1 and thanked God it was only training. I like the low recoil and the accuracy but I really have to stop and wonder if Ugene Stoner was smoking crack when he decided to put a gas tube vent hole that would deposit carbon into one of the most important functioning areas of the whole weapon. You know-where the bolt goes back and forth in side the bolt carrier. I have a Daewoo DR200 and the South Koreans got smart about it and put an AK type gas piston that neatly fits into a recessed notch on top of the bolt carrier which results in-you guesses it, no inordinate amount of carbon in the bolt carrier. It does still however take M-16 magazines which is handy for me because I still like to shoot my AR-15's of which I have 2. A National Match and an H-Bar carbine. I like them and will forever keep them. I even want one of those M4 types just to round out my collection. My grief with the AR-15(M-16) is that:
A) They are not the best rifle this country can produce and I think that we have them because of political reasons. Hap Arnold got a hard on over watching one shoot one time and so it all began there. Just wish old Hap had fired the AK first and was given a demonstration of how good and reliable a weapon it was. He might have opted for an American version of the AK over the Stoner design.
B) THe round. The .223 round was originally intended for shooting varments like coyotes. When the .223(5.56mm) round was introduced, the thinking was that the soldier could carry more rounds and supress the enemy with volume of fire as the unit would shoot move and communicate. The wounding effects, although believed to be devisating to the human body were also intended to cause greater numbers of casulties by wounding and NOT killing the enemy and putting a greater logistic strain on the enemy because of the greater number of wounded. In Afganistan as well as in Viet Nam, the GI's reported that it took an average number of 5 rounds to kill the enemy. SOOOO-if you have a 30 round magazine and it's full and you actually have the ability to take aimed shots, thats only 6 enemy per 30 round magazine. If you took the old M-14 and did the same thing, you can drop the enemy dead with one ound of .308(7.62Nato) Thats 20 rounds-20 kills. The average foot soldier will shoot to kill and knows that the enemy wants to kill him and he's not interested in just wounding the enemy, but killing him. That is why if I have to go to war, I'm either bringing an AK-47 or an FAL or M-14.
When politics get in the way of a how we arm our soldiers, then there is something wrong with the system. As a matter of fact, Mr Kalashnikov himself said the he didn't like the idea of a smaller cartridge for the AK. He would have rather have improved the M43 7.62x39 round. I think he was right there too.
TH AK-47
The AK-47 is purely and simply a soldiers weapon. It is reliable and reasonably accurate for most of the combat distances that you find in modern warfare. The 7.62x39 round can be really accurate when properly made. The whole weapons system is well concieved and thought out. I own a number of AK's and want to buy more. I embrace the concept of simplicity and reliability in a field environment as well. If I were a soldier in a war, the last thing that I want to have happen to me is a weapons failure because that can be your ass. The only things I don't like about AK's is that being brought up and cutting my teeth on M-16's, I like the magazine change on the M-16 better. The bolt stays open after the last shot and I can change mags out more quickly. I like the trigger too. There is not as much creep as an AK and it feels a little more solid. I also like the fact that I can still handle the weapon even after it get really hot. AK's seem to get hotter to me. They have improved since the last time I got one where you can light a cigarette on the barrel. The stocks and grips have improved and I think Kvar has a stock set where there is a heat sheild on the fore grip, and Red Star Arms makes a damn fine adjustable trigger group for the AK.
So if I were to pick between the two-AR-15 for match shooting.
AK-47 if it's my ass.
Thank you-
Written transcripts of this editorial available by pushing the ptint logo on your task bar. Replys and mud slinging are welcome.
xxoo----->>>>> Der Landser

:D :happydanc :D

[yasnevo]

Makarov!

"Bad Ass" znachit pizdets po Amerikanski sleng...

:)

Yasnevo

[LittleJacek]

yes.. American slang for "Excellent" or "Great"




LittleJacek

[RomanStepanov]

Volodya !

Ya tak dymau chto eto delo nado osyshestvit. Ya bydy vistypat za Rossiu. Mojno sdelat Rossiya vs USA v oryjii. Klassno bi bilo.

I think that we need to seriously make this happen. I will represent my country. Russia vs USA on weapons. Would be very cool to see a friendly competition.

[War Dawg]

I sat here and typed for nearly 45 minuets in a reply to landser64 post.Just some good honest rebutel.I had sources and where to look for info and my damn computor locked up and I lost my reply before I got to send it. So this is a short version with out some of the info I had typed in before. The 5.56 round wasn't choosen to wound.It was choosen to kill.It does that very well.It has a greater wound channel and causes more shock than the 7.62x51 and 30 06 . It is in the Military charts as well I believe the FBI's. It gives a terrible wound. Documented is the NVA surgens working on soldiers that had been hit by it. Just like the Russian 5.45x39 round.The reports that came back from Afagns and Chechnya that have been hit by it /surgens that worked on people been hit by it.What gives the 5.56 pop is its speed.Slow it down and its less affective.M4= less affective.Shorter barrel= less speed.I love the 7.62x51.I have several M14 clones.Bought one and built the other two.Great rifles and I can hit anything with it.I great long distance rifle.The 5.56 isn't perfect.No round is. It is " THE MOUSE THAT ROARED" !!!:rockin: :gun: War Dawg

Oh I went to try to find some Russian beer and no luck.The Liquor store siad they might get some Chech ( Yugo) beer in.Not the same?? Im still looking.:( War Dawg

[Prometheus606]

AK v/s AR.....I WILL BE THERE!!! and the funny part is, I don't care which rifle wins, they are both fine weapons crafted by the finest of men, heros of there nations. I am sure that E. Stoner will be there in spirit, as for M.T. Kalashnikov the chance to see him with my own eyes and to shake his hand would be one of the honors of my life. So just let me know when, were, and how many rounds to bring....
Rusty

[War Dawg]

Yeah I would really like to go also.This country is so big though and the work schdule It would be hard for me to attend. But Never say never. I would really like to meet all of yall .And drink some Russain beer. ;) War Dawg

[LittleJacek]

I hope we aren't just testing for group size....there wouldnt be much point : ) its kinda hard to test for reliability other than just shooting.......




LittleJacek

[Fallschirmjäger]

One thing I get out of this thread is that the AK is more reliable than the AR because you don't have to clean it. OK, I'll give you that, but no one I have ever known cleaned his weapon during a firefight and they always worked, so I'd say our M-16A2's did just fine. We would always clean our weapons in our Assembly Area's, but what's the big deal? That's what we were trained to do; Respect our weapons, keep them clean and well maintained, and they will kill the enemy. I saw MK on the History Channell talking about throwing a handfull of sand in an AK and it'll work. Cool; So will an M16! I have intimate knowledge of that from Desert Shield/Storm, and rotations to NTC.

AK's are great, and I'm taking nothing from them. In the hands of the untrained they really shine, since they can be stored uncleaned and abused and still work. But the M16 was designed to be employed by trained soldiers, not to be exported to arms all the "Peoples" armies of the world and their revolutions. In the hands of a trained soldier, an M16 is hands down a better weapon. Don't believe me? Well, come out and shoot rifle qual's with both and see who walks away expert with which weapon...

[makarov]

test Avatar

[hkrustofski]

Volodya,
My opinion stems from my personal experience, and what I've seen on the web.

1 - AK's action is flawless. It is extremely durable and reliable.
2 - AK's are cheaper and easier to manufacture in large numbers, thus have a huge advantage in desperate times.
3 - AK's are very hard to cusomize. The scope placement is usually to the side of the rifle, forsing one to account for parallax when using scope at distances over 100M.
4 - AR offers a greater flexibility in accessories, bipods, scopes, etc.
5 - Properly maintained AR is said to be every bit as reliable as an AK...

There is a very good article posted by Israeli special forces who, unlike most armies of the world are not restricted into carrying a specific weapon system.

M16 Vs. AK47/Galil (http://www.isayeret.com/weapons/assault/m16vsak47.htm)

Here I have to stop, and interject my personal opinion. A weapon that is to be used in battle should be reliable. Everything else is secondary. Being able to use a scope, although an advantage, is useless in wet, foggy forests. When digging foxholes or trenches, worrying about my rifle falling into the dirt or touching it is the last thing I want to do when I'm under fire.

An AK will hit a target, while being shot off-hand 200 yards away with no problems. I don't think I can tell a difference between a civilian and a combattant any further than that, and if telling the difference is not important, then firing 4 rounds will work just as well.

An unmodified AR will produce 6" groups, being shot with no support at 100 yards, I've seen it. A modified AR will produce sub MOA shot placement, suitable for sniping, but .223 will not provide decent penetration at 500+ meters, which is a minimal distance for any sniper rifle. An accurized rifle needs to be taken care of as to not to throw it off by either shocking or dirtying it - again unacceptable for grunt work.

So the question is, in combat would I rather carry an AK or an AR - personally, and in view of the fact that my life depends on my decision, I would pick an AK. I need a rifle to go bang, when it has to, especially when my life depends on it.

[hkrustofski]

Originally posted by DesantnikVDV
Volodya !

Ya tak dymau chto eto delo nado osyshestvit. Ya bydy vistypat za Rossiu. Mojno sdelat Rossiya vs USA v oryjii. Klassno bi bilo.

I think that we need to seriously make this happen. I will represent my country. Russia vs USA on weapons. Would be very cool to see a friendly competition.

Name the place, bro.

[hkrustofski]

Originally posted by DesantnikVDV
that would be bad ass

Actually, a better way of saying is: "That would be fucking awesome!"
:D
-H

[hkrustofski]

Oh, WAIT!!!

I do have 2 major problems with an AK design.

1 - The sling slot is placed on the side of the barrel. When I shoot, I use the sling to steady my supporting hand. To completely fix that hand, the sling has to be tight. When the sling slot is on the side of the rifle, and even worse - on the side of the barrel, the tightning of the sling forces the shot to go wide.
2 - Magazine placement in an AK interferes with a comfortable placement of the supporting hand. The magazie keeps getting in the way, so I end-up supporting my AK by having a trigger-guard rest on the palm of my left hand.

-H

[Fallschirmjäger]

Originally posted by hkrustofski
An unmodified AR will produce 6" groups, being shot with no support at 100 yards, I've seen it.

So the question is, in combat would I rather carry an AK or an AR - personally, and in view of the fact that my life depends on my decision, I would pick an AK. I need a rifle to go bang, when it has to, especially when my life depends on it.

OK, well I've used military issue M-16's for about 9 years and I can tell you that a trained soldier can do better than 6 inches at 100 yards unsupported, and genereally in combat you only stand up when you're running; At least that's the US Army doctrain.

I have never, ever had an M-16 fail to go bang. Again, with proper cleaning (which doesn't need to be performed except when you're not on patrol anyways) and use, an M-16 is JUST as reliable as an AK.

If I had the choice, again, I'd take an M-16. I know how to clean and maintain it, and I'll be dropping OPFOR before they can get aimed fire at me, because my weapon is reliable AND accurate!

By the way, I NEVER qualified less than Expert on either A1's or A2's out to 300m, and I've never been standing trying to deliver aimed fire when people were shooting at me, either in training or combat.

[Prometheus606]

Groop sizes aside, the M-16 and the AK-47 are both COMBAT RIFLES!! I have never heard of a solder going out and measuring his groops on the chest of a dead enemy. In my opinion a groop mesurment is not a good way to decide which is the best rifle. If a range could be set up were there are moving targets, "real world" like conditions to put the rifles through..mud, water, sand, etc...then we would get a better test of the rifles. Just my opinion on the matter.......

[Fallschirmjäger]

OK, well let me explain something to you about combat rifles; They're used in combat, ie. where you have to shoot the other guy before he shoots you or your buddies.

If you're in a fighting position or kneeling against a tree or in the prone, which rifle would you want? A rifle that can be left to rot but still fire reliably, or a rifle that you have to clean when you're in your assembly area but you can drop the enemy with?

Let me ask you, how frustrating do you think it would be to fire a reliable weapon and not hit your target?

Last time I remember combat was still about killing the enemy. Then again I guess they just call in CAS now... :rolleyes:

[hkrustofski]

Originally posted by Fallschirmjäger
OK, well I've used military issue M-16's for about 9 years and I can tell you that a trained soldier can do better than 6 inches at 100 yards unsupported, and genereally in combat you only stand up when you're running; At least that's the US Army doctrain.

All I can go by is what I've seen. The guys at a range rapid fire (shot fired every 2-3 seconds) their AR's and their targets have nice round distribution patterns of about 12"...

I have never, ever had an M-16 fail to go bang. Again, with proper cleaning (which doesn't need to be performed except when you're not on patrol anyways) and use, an M-16 is JUST as reliable as an AK.

Again - with proper cleaning! What if you can only get to cleaning your rifle at night, with no light? Smaller AR parts can easily get lost. What if your cleaning kit gets lost in the heat of battle? What if you have to force march in adverse conditions, sleep 5 hours per day, eat on the go, and stop only take roll-call? Will you clean your rifle then, or will you use the extra seconds to drop and rest?

BTW, I HAVE seen AR's jam even at my range, without being bumped on rocks, and dragged through dirt!

The point I'm making is that if shit hits the fan, I'd prefer an AK at my side, rather than an AR. The less I have to worry about my rifle, the more effective will I be.

If I had the choice, again, I'd take an M-16. I know how to clean and maintain it, and I'll be dropping OPFOR before they can get aimed fire at me, because my weapon is reliable AND accurate!

Have you tried to shoot at clay pigeons with your AR? I have with my AK, I even hit a few! Here's the drill: Your weapon at your side, battle ready. Yell "pull!". You have 2 shots to drop the sucker!

By the way, I NEVER qualified less than Expert on either A1's or A2's out to 300m, and I've never been standing trying to deliver aimed fire when people were shooting at me, either in training or combat.

I never said I doubted your abilities, but the fact that you qualified as expert, leads me to belive that there were others that didn't. Meaning, there were people that couldn't hit the broad side of a barn with their ARs...

:D

-H

[Prometheus606]

by Fallschirmjäger

"If you're in a fighting position or kneeling against a tree or in the prone, which rifle would you want? A rifle that can be left to rot but still fire reliably, or a rifle that you have to clean when you're in your assembly area but you can drop the enemy with?"

I have both, the M-4(LEO) and the SAR-1, and -2 and I would take any of those rifles. Now depending on conditions I might grab a specific rifle. Example, In my job as a Cop if I am dealing with a barracaded suspect I will grab the M-4, better accuracy, more standardized ammo with the types of weapons my fellow officers will have, and better controlability. BUT in a SHTF situation were I might be away from civilization for some time the AK gets the nod everytime. Plus I have a ton of ammo for that rifle, but I only have about 1,000 rounds for the M-4....mere logistics!!!

[hkrustofski]

Originally posted by Fallschirmjäger
OK, well let me explain something to you about combat rifles; They're used in combat, ie. where you have to shoot the other guy before he shoots you or your buddies.

Agreed! That's what it's all about.

If you're in a fighting position or kneeling against a tree or in the prone, which rifle would you want? A rifle that can be left to rot but still fire reliably, or a rifle that you have to clean when you're in your assembly area but you can drop the enemy with?

I guess the point I'm trying to make here, is that I can reliably drop an enemy with my AK, while kneeling against a tree. In fact, I can probably make a head shot at 150-200 meters. Goo enough for combat?

Let me ask you, how frustrating do you think it would be to fire a reliable weapon and not hit your target?

You're implying an AK can't hit a broad side of the barn! This is a phalacy. Any rifle, in a hands of a marksman will kill with 1 shot. I'm no expert, but I can drop my target when I have to. If my rifle gets into the hands of a farmer, who never held a gun in his hands, it will go bang, but he won't be able to hit anything with it. The same can be said of a farmer holding an AR :D.

Last time I remember combat was still about killing the enemy. Then again I guess they just call in CAS now... :rolleyes:

:D

-H

[Fallschirmjäger]

What range have you seen AR's jam at? Civilian ranges, or Military? Yeah, I've seen AR's jam too, and I've seen AK's jam as well.

The biggest problem with the M-16 I ever ran into was the magazines get bent feed lips, but, if it's your weapon and your gear, you DX the mags that don't work.

Also...

"Again - with proper cleaning! What if you can only get to cleaning your rifle at night, with no light? Smaller AR parts can easily get lost. What if your cleaning kit gets lost in the heat of battle? What if you have to force march in adverse conditions, sleep 5 hours per day, eat on the go, and stop only take roll-call? Will you clean your rifle then, or will you use the extra seconds to drop and rest?"

That's called a Field Problem, ie. a training exercise. Been there, done that, and even in Iraq we did that, and guess what? We still shot the bad guys instead of clubbing them, even with M16's!

I have never even thought of shooting Clay pigeons with anything but my 12 gauge; In fact they'd kick me off the range.

Also, it doesn't matter about the marksmanship of the individual in this discussion, it's the accuracy of the weapon. I've had Privates I've had to retrain with the M16 and I've made experts out of them. The rifle has the ability, you just have to train the person. The AK does not have the same accuracy as the M16, period.

My SA M-7 really surpised me at the range. Very accurate. But, still not as accurate as an M-16...

[Prometheus606]

I have had my M-4 jam, But I think that was due to the reloaded Winchester "White Box" that I was shooting and not due to the rifle.

[Fallschirmjäger]

Originally posted by hkrustofski

You're implying an AK can't hit a broad side of the barn! This is a phalacy. Any rifle, in a hands of a marksman will kill with 1 shot. I'm no expert, but I can drop my target when I have to. If my rifle gets into the hands of a farmer, who never held a gun in his hands, it will go bang, but he won't be able to hit anything with it. The same can be said of a farmer holding an AR :D.

No, I'm saying an AK will not be able to drop OPFOR in the door of the barn at 300m with one shot. I have no doubt it would hit all over the broad side of that barn. :D

AK's are accurate enough for combat, just as long as the other guys are using them and I'm using an M-16. :D

Actually, I think the real argument anymore is against the M4, wich I have limited experience with. But still, with an A2, I'll getcha! And so far as loosing my cleaning kit, it's in my ruck, or in my buttstock, so either way I'm good.

Prom,

You argument doesn't persuade me much. What if you had more ammo for the AR than the AK? :P

[hkrustofski]

Originally posted by Fallschirmjäger
What range have you seen AR's jam at? Civilian ranges, or Military? Yeah, I've seen AR's jam too, and I've seen AK's jam as well.

I'm shooting at a civilian range. Military won't allow an AK. :(. I've never seen an AK jam. Sorry. I've seen gang-banger types unloading mag after mag through an AK, and it always worked, then I've seen special forces wannabees shoot their ARs and having to clear the jams.

The biggest problem with the M-16 I ever ran into was the magazines get bent feed lips, but, if it's your weapon and your gear, you DX the mags that don't work.

Hmmm, never had that problem with my AK. Maybe the AK mags are made out of a more rigid material?

Also...

"Again - with proper cleaning! What if you can only get to cleaning your rifle at night, with no light? Smaller AR parts can easily get lost. What if your cleaning kit gets lost in the heat of battle? What if you have to force march in adverse conditions, sleep 5 hours per day, eat on the go, and stop only take roll-call? Will you clean your rifle then, or will you use the extra seconds to drop and rest?"

That's called a Field Problem, ie. a training exercise. Been there, done that, and even in Iraq we did that, and guess what? We still shot the bad guys instead of clubbing them, even with M16's!

:D

I have never even thought of shooting Clay pigeons with anything but my 12 gauge; In fact they'd kick me off the range.

My range is up against a mountain side. On the right there are rows for high-power rifles, and on the left is a clay shooting station. Damn good exercise, though! Got the idea from reading an article on bolt-action rifles in how to improve the bolt working techniques. Lotsa fun!!!

Also, it doesn't matter about the marksmanship of the individual in this discussion, it's the accuracy of the weapon. I've had Privates I've had to retrain with the M16 and I've made experts out of them. The rifle has the ability, you just have to train the person. The AK does not have the same accuracy as the M16, period.

Herein lies the problem. You're convinced that your AR, given the same conditions will outshoot an AK. I disagree. I think you let your pre-concieved notions get the better of you. AK is a very accurate weapon. Take a stock AR, and a stock AK, lock them in a vice with sandbags, use military ammo, and see what kind of groups you get. I bet you they won't be that much different from one-another.

My SA M-7 really surpised me at the range. Very accurate. But, still not as accurate as an M-16...

You're learning... Heck, I bet in a few years you'll get to love your AK.

-H

[Fallschirmjäger]

Originally posted by hkrustofski
I've never seen an AK jam. Sorry. I've seen gang-banger types unloading mag after mag through an AK, and it always worked, then I've seen special forces wannabees shoot their ARs and having to clear the jams.
-----
Herein lies the problem. You're convinced that your AR, given the same conditions will outshoot an AK. I disagree. I think you let your pre-concieved notions get the better of you. AK is a very accurate weapon. Take a stock AR, and a stock AK, lock them in a vice with sandbags, use military ammo, and see what kind of groups you get. I bet you they won't be that much different from one-another.
----
You're learning... Heck, I bet in a few years you'll get to love your AK.

-H

Actually, I have 4 AK's, and I do love them, but, from EXPERIENCE, not preconcieved notions, I can tell you that an AR IS more accurate than an AK. We zero our 16's at 25m. Any and all AR's I've shot have shot cloverleaf into the center mass at 25m. Same target with three different AK's, there is a greater spread, although the SA M-7 was grouping the best out of the AK's. Practical application tells me that same group will expand as the yardage increases, so obviously the AR is more accurate just there. Then, going to an familiarization fire with captured AK's, I can tell you we were missing the 300m more with the AK. Don't get me started on the blade sight differences, since my M-60 had blade sights too, and I could drop a single target with one aimed round at 300m with that too (but that takes the discussion into trigger maniplulation on the M-60, and I would be digressing).

I've seen many a man burn off a clip in his A1 with no issues (our 203's were A1's), and I've seen Spetznaz wannabe's jam their AK's too.

BTW, the AR mag is fine. It has a life span, and is an expendable item, unlike the weapon. In training, they get used over and over, and supply doesn't like replacing them unless they have to, so there are always some mags in the bottom of the platoon box that suck. I wouldn't hold that against the rifle though.

[War Dawg]

I got to put my dog in this .I never carried the AK in a military. I have shot them at a familarzation fire in the dersert. It was a Russian AK.It did jam twice while on Full Auto. With different mags.It was clean when we got it.We put about 500 rnds through it.It wouldn't on semi but did on full auto.Ive seen a few M16's jam also. But thats over a 4 year span.The standard M16 at bench is more accurate than a AK. Thats fact.Iron sight to iron sight same shooting skills at 100 yards (bench, standing sitting , or prone )..Not a problem.Im in Middle Georgia.Im a member of a range. We can go. Out of fun and go get a beer afterward and have laugh about the results. whatever they turn out to be. We are all friends here.Same interest.Just my Ford is faster than your Chevy..I was trained on the M16.A1's and A2's.Its a great weapons system.I love the AK.Outstanding reliabilty. To those that say you might not have time to clean it (M16).If your my platoon you would clean it . Soldiers especially the lower enlisted always have a excuse to not have time to do something. Its the way the world works. Good leadership always has is men trained ,and combat ready, and rested the best he can.To those who think its an hour job to clean an M16.... It should take you between 5-10 MAX. It isn't rocket science.Its a very easy system to clean.CLP the bolt and hit it with your brush .Wipe off. Done.Run a patch down the barrel.Hit the chamber with the chamber brush and wipe out.Lube to the type enviroment your in.Your now back in tip top shape and good for a long battle.For those that think you can't shoot many rounds in a M16 with out cleaning it.I cleaned mine spotless and went to desert train.Two weeks later and about 1500 rounds later it fired flawless.Thats a mix of Nasty blanks and regular ammo.All I did was drop the bolt out and wipe it with a almost dry clp rag.It was basiclly dry.Q-tipped the bolt face.Took total of less than 1 minuet.I did not break the bolt down.All I did was wipe off the exterior. Just my humble opinion. War Dawg U.S. ARMY 4/23 INFATRY 1985-1989

[Fallschirmjäger]

Amen Dawg.

1/502 INF '89-'92
1/148 INF '94-'02

[hkrustofski]

Krusti folds up his AK, and walks away...

You shoot yours, I'll shoot mine. :)

-H

[War Dawg]

To all the friends and Comrades out there in AK 47 .net land . Hope you all have a joyful New years eve and New year.Im going to get shit faced tonight.Im staying at home watching football.Be safe out there and be SMART. We may not always agree on the type knife to cut up the pig with but can agree the Barbecue is good. War Dawg :)

[hkrustofski]

Hear hear!
Happy, safe and target-rich new year to you and yours!
May the Muslim menace die without a need to fire a single shot. May they realize the insanity of their cause. May their wifes and mothers rebel and take matters into their own hads.

And if none of that comes to pass, may my aim be true and my hand be swift.

Happy new year everyone!

-H

[Fallschirmjäger]

I'm already drinking Beamish, so Happy Days to all!

[makarov]

For "«hkrustofski" - you have written:

“Oh, WAIT!!!

I do have 2 major problems with an AK design.

1 - The sling slot is placed on the side of the barrel. When I shoot, I use the sling to steady my supporting hand. To completely fix that hand, the sling has to be tight. When the sling slot is on the side of the rifle, and even worse - on the side of the barrel, the tightning of the sling forces the shot to go wide.
2 - Magazine placement in an AK interferes with a comfortable placement of the supporting hand. The magazie keeps getting in the way, so I end-up supporting my AK by having a trigger-guard rest on the palm of my left hand.”

I do not see any problems with a belt. In Russian army train to use a belt for improvement of stability(immunity) of weapon - you can see versions of usage of a belt below on photos.
I have not understood your problem with Mags AK. Write please by simple words about it. Mine English awful.

Yours faithfully Vladimir Makarov

[makarov]

For "«hkrustofski"-2

[makarov]

For "«hkrustofski"-3

[makarov]

For "«hkrustofski"-4

[makarov]

For "«hkrustofski"-1

[timkel]

Vladimir,
I like that KA-BAR 1213 knife on your vest. Good choice!

[makarov]

Timkel
Yes, YOU are right, KA-BAR 1213 is a best knif, which one I saw!!! It is really worthy of the most good words.

Vladimir Makarov

[Krupski]

Originally posted by imanaknut
Even though some would argue that the AR is more accurate than an AK, with 6 times the fire power, I do not think that it matters.

How or where does an AR-15 / M-16 have "6 times the firepower" of an AK?

Although the AR round has a higher muzzle velocity, the AK round has a higher muzzle ENERGY. And, of course, the AK is more rugged and more reliable that an AR-15/M-16 could ever hope to be.

The only drawback is the larger, heavier rounds of the AK (which has been corrected in the AK-74).

I'll take an AK, anyday...

Roger

[hkrustofski]

Originally posted by makarov
I do not see any problems with a belt. In Russian army train to use a belt for improvement of stability(immunity) of weapon - you can see versions of usage of a belt below on photos.
I have not understood your problem with Mags AK. Write please by simple words about it. Mine English awful.

Yours faithfully Vladimir Makarov

Arrrgh! Volodya!
Ya ne imeyu dostatochno prav cho-bi posmotret tvoi fotki. BLIN!!!
:(
-H


Na schet magazina:

V AK, eto ne tak vazhno kak v Romak-3 (ruminskiy AK, udlenenniy 7.62x54R). Ya privik pod-derzhivat ruzhye levoy rukoy, to-est levaya ruka, s otkritoy ili slegka szatoy lodoshoy derzhit pered ruzhya, a remen zluzhit tomu cho-bi levaya ruka ne dvigalas v pered. Chem luchshe natyanut remen, tem boleye stabilizirovana pozitsiya levoy ruki. Pravaya ruka pochi ne derzhit ruzhye, a ruzhye opirayetsa v plecho i lezhit na levoy ruke. Levaya dlya luchshego upora, i minimalnogo usiliya dolzhna nahoditsa pryamo pod ruzhyem, to-est lokot levoy ruki, nahoditsa pryamo pod ruzhyem. V takoy pozitsii mozhno polnostyu ras-slabitsa, nastroit dihaniye, i plavno nazhat na kurok.

Angliyskiy...

In my Romak, a forward handguard is locate too far for a comfortable, relaxed grip. My hand tends to want to hold a receiver area, just forward of the magazine. Needless to say, the magazine gets in the way.

-H

[War Dawg]

Originally posted by krupski@acsu.buffalo.edu
How or where does an AR-15 / M-16 have "6 times the firepower" of an AK?

Roger

He was talking about cost of the AK vs M16. Saying you could get 6 AK's for one M16.So you would have 6 times the firepower(AK's) vs. one M16 . But I would think its more closer 2 ak's to one M16. The gov. don't pay what we pay for them AK or M16. They get them alot cheaper. War Dawg......;)

[hkrustofski]

Originally posted by War Dawg
He was talking about cost of the AK vs M16. Saying you could get 6 AK's for one M16.So you would have 6 times the firepower(AK's) vs. one M16 . But I would think its more closer 2 ak's to one M16. The gov. don't pay what we pay for them AK or M16. They get them alot cheaper. War Dawg......;)

Actually, my information sources say AR is about $200 / per, when as AK is about $25...

Makarov can probably quote you an exact figure on this... ;)
-H

[Krupski]

Originally posted by hkrustofski
Actually, my information sources say AR is about $200 / per, when as AK is about $25...

Makarov can probably quote you an exact figure on this... ;)
-H

Does that mean the AK has "eight times the firepower of an AR"? :jump:

Roger

[hkrustofski]

LOL,
Actually, if you read (not watch) "we were soldiers" about the air cav group in NAM, when re-enforcements arrived, commanded by the (forgot the exact last name) Ukranian - American officer, when NVA russhed, full 1/3 of his company was out of comission because they had to drop out of action and clean their jammed rifles! They were saved by the strategic placements of the M-60's, that actually worked...

Therefore, 8x3=24! AK has 24 times the fire-power of an AR!

From the same book, I loved the line when the Major (the author of the book) picked up an AR, pointed it at the NVA, pulled the trigger, and the barrel fell off!!! I guess the front or back pin fell out of it when it got dropped. Seems to me a rock will be better than an AR in this situation...

-H

[Krupski]

Originally posted by hkrustofski
From the same book, I loved the line when the Major (the author of the book) picked up an AR, pointed it at the NVA, pulled the trigger, and the barrel fell off!!!

Well, I guess there was no worry about a squib load in that one, huh? :jump:

Did it completely fall off, or did it hang by the gas tube? ROFLMAO!!

Everyone is looking at me... wondering why I'm laughing at the computer!


http://www.eng.buffalo.edu/~krupski/joker.gif


Roger

[hkrustofski]

Originally posted by krupski@acsu.buffalo.edu
Well, I guess there was no worry about a squib load in that one, huh? :jump:

Did it completely fall off, or did it hang by the gas tube? ROFLMAO!!

As I recall, he wrote "it fell off", my interpretation is that the gun broke in two, with the upper receiver / barrel doing a nose dive. I'd hate tp have that happen!

Everyone is looking at me... wondering why I'm laughing at the computer!


http://www.eng.buffalo.edu/~krupski/joker.gif


Roger

:D

-H

[landser64]

(QUOTE)I sat here and typed for nearly 45 minuets in a reply to landser64 post.Just some good honest rebutel.I had sources and where to look for info and my damn computor locked up and I lost my reply before I got to send it. So this is a short version with out some of the info I had typed in before. The 5.56 round wasn't choosen to wound.It was choosen to kill.It does that very well.It has a greater wound channel and causes more shock than the 7.62x51 and 30 06(QUOTE)

Thanks for all the attention to my input, I would have loved to have seen all the data you wrote about 5.56 wound balistics you mentioned. I have heard from men in combat and other data that 7.62x51 and even 7.62x39 has greater stopping power than 5.56. The 5.56 may have more velocity but I understand 7.62 in either flavor including 30.06 has more WOLLOP. I know velocity is important but in my earlier thread I mentioned that 7.62 has more stopping power. Recall the 5 hits to kill a person ratio to the 1 hit 7.62.
Please give me more input or suggested resources for your information. Alawys got room for more knowledge. Thanks again.
Der Landser.

[turbotrailgod]

an ak ,a ar and a order of fries ,will that be all sir??????????????? did i miss something:rant:

[bigden37]

Originally posted by LittleJacek
Still never should have made a total switch to the 16 from the 14......... Best rifle ever designed.... bar none.

LittleJacek


Amen to that!!!!!!!!! The M-14 is and was the best rifle the U.S. Armed forces has ever had, albeit it is much heavier than the M-16, but, I like the caliber, the range, the ergonomics, the simplicity, the action and quality much better than the M-16 POS. If I had a choice of the three to take into battle between the Ak-47, M-16- or M-14 it would be the M-14 first, AK second, and M-16 third. . The Garand type action was a true technological breakthrough the armed forces never should have abandoned. I have never shot the BAR but I would imagine that was one hell of a weapon likewise.

[makarov]

« For bigden37 »

I do not think, that the marines of USA will yield with you rather: ” The M-14 is and was the best rifle the U.S. Armed forces has ever had, albeit it is much heavier than the M-16 ”.
When you do(make) large run on 10-15 km in mountains of Afghanistan, or YOU are far from a home base and you can calculate only on yourselves - you will think of each superfluous weight, which one have in the implement.
M-14 And the cartridges to it(her) will be very high-gravity. And it is very inconvenient and is high-gravity.
As the cartridge 7,62x51 is a very powerful cartridge. I have used SVD much (7,62x54R) is a good weapon for the military sniper, but it not an attack rifle.

I think, that 10 cartridges in mags are much worse, than in mags 30, 45, 60 (prototip) or 75, which one you can have in AK.

Vladimir Makarov

[lockwood]

I had been into ar's for a long time and i even used one in the marine corps, but I must say that a lot of guys died trying to get the damn thing working sort of correctly, but bottom line is it is a POS and the AK rules hands down and when tweeked right can even out shoot an AR, considering the true effective range of the 223 cartridge which really is 300 yards and not 500 yards as they teach in the Uncle Sams Misguided Children USMC. As far as I am concerned the AK is one of the best damned weapons out there for the money and could use some minor ergonomic improvments such as a longer stock maybe better sights etc.

[Ivan8883]

Very im presssive shooting with Your AK74 at 100 yards. I have a Sar2 545 with the 74 muzzle Brake and the Romanian Vertical grip on the front handguard(Grip faces backwards which helps from ing stressing the hand). This Rifle , kneeling, and shooting at 200 yards rapid fire at the range in West Virginia will put them all on the target with nice tight groups. I love the AK 47 i have( ear I fibnly Maddi AKm) . But the AK74 type Puts more hits on the target and I think I can take on the AR15 shooter at 200 yards and do as good as him! Off the subject a bit, But COlonel Moore , aftr the battle in La Drang valley , mentiond that the AK47 was very accurate at the battle ranges with the hits on uS GI's mainly in the Head and center areas. AK 74 is Plenty accurate and Much stronger and reliable weapon for combat at the ranges Of Combat!I find that the Barnaul soft point 545 is even more accurate than FMJ.It is a no brainer. AK wins in a landslide.

[pzgen]

I know 2 friends that are active duty military (1 Army, 1 Air Force). The one in the Army saw duty in Bosnia and the other is currently coming back from Afghanistan for the second time. One day I asked each of them about the M16 and the supposed problems with the weapon. Neither one really complained about the M16 but they both acknowledge that the weapon does jam too much. They said of the problems are associated with feed jams and if you kept it rediculously cleaned there should be few if any problems, but the possibility of it jamming in a "bad situation" was always in the back of your mind.

Concerning which weapon is better, I would probably choose the AK simply because I don't think you should have to keep the gun meticulously clean to make sure it fires like it should. But I'm biased anyway since I own an AK myself.

Yes, I do clean my gun after I fire it just in case any wants to know.

[cowsnplows]

I'm kinda old so I remember the cold war very well. All my life I was told the Ruskies were not as smart as us or as technologically advanced as us, and also they had ugly women. In the last couple of years I have really gotten into the Commie guns, Got a Makarov, Tokarev, 2 SKS's, Mak-90, a couple of M-44's and also a Bushmaster AR. I think I got lied to, these people make weapons that are absolutley bulletproof, dummyproof, and they just keep shootin, and with that Anna Kindacurvy playing tennis I think they lied about the women too.

[hkrustofski]

Went to the range today. Met a guy who had 2 ARs. One AR-15 - A1 with all mil spec parts, tapered handguard, and one South Korean job. I shot 30 rounds out if each. I was shooting at a 200 yard steel plate.

The A1 couldn't keep a steady string going no matter what. I also had a bit of a problem with the peep rear site, being used to the com-block open notch type. Whoever said it's more intuitive was smocking crack. Also, whoever sait it's easier to aim was a crack addict. It's pretty easy to aim with it windage wise, but elevation was a pain in the rear. I prefer ligning up the front post and a rear notch. Needless to say I couldn't hit the target with any consistancy. One thing, though. It has very light recoil. Almost none, actually. The trigger was fine, but tended to travel too far after the 2nd stage break, thus causing the rifle to jerk. One huge problem with his rifle - accuracy. Because it didn't recoil hard, I knew exactly where the shot should land. Most of the time it didn't, and rifle seemed to throw rounds in every direction.

Korean job. Very cute rifle. Seemed better made than the M16-A1. One huge problem - very short distance between front and rear sights. Even smaller than my AK underfolder's. But consistancy in shot placement was much better. Same lack of recoil as the A1, but because the front post was too close, it seemed huge, and would almost cover the 200 yard steel plate.

All in all, my AK is far more accurate than any of these, fires a heavier round, with greater knockdown power, has the same recoil, and is more reliable.

I'm sticking with what I've got.

-H