5,45 or 5,56 or 7,62???

[makarov]

5,45 or 5,56 or 7,62???

I wanted in this section to speak about advantages and lacks Russian 5, 45 x39 and American (5,56x45) of cartridges. As about lacks and advantages 5,56 (5,45) and 7,62. The tables of efficiency of a bullet 5,56 and 5,45 are resulted at hit of a bullet in a body of the man below.

http://www.hunting-pictures.com/members/timkel/test545.jpg

http://www.hunting-pictures.com/members/timkel/test556m193.jpg

http://www.hunting-pictures.com/members/timkel/test556ss109.jpg

YOU can see, that Russian bullet practically is not shattered. Its(her) design provides occurrence(appearance) 2 temporary cavities apart 12 and 37 cm from a point of hit, after that the bullet changes the direction sharply.

The American bullet, falling in a body of the man - creates 1 temporary cavity apart 15-18 cm from a point of hit. As the bullet is strongly shattered on (36-50 %).

What it gives?
1. Russian bullet has advantage - temporary cavity forms closer to a surface, than on the American pool.
2. Russian bullet has advantage - 2 temporary cavities and if the bullet has not passed through - such wound very much frequently - fatal.
3. The American bullet has advantage - temporary cavity has the greater size.

Both bullets put very high-gravity wounds. But the American bullet is shattered and consequently treatment of such wound very composite and part(long).

Now we compare these characteristics 5,45 (5,56) to bullets 7,62.

http://www.hunting-pictures.com/members/timkel/test762nato.jpg

http://www.hunting-pictures.com/members/timkel/test762pss.jpg

We see, that Russian bullet as has 2 temporary cavities, but apart 27 and 42 cm, that is much farther, than on bullets 5,45 and 5,56.

The outcome is interquartile is obvious, that the bullets 5,45 and 5,56 are more effective, than 7,62. But …. Why then all special divisions(subdivisions) of Russian army and the polices aim to have 7,62x39, instead of 5,45?

I saw very many consequences of the use of weapons 5,45 and 7,62 in Afghanistan, Chechnia and for 12 years of activity in police. I saw many and many corpses.

The weapon 5,45 leaves terrible wounds, which one are very high-gravity for more often treatment, frequently are be fatal, but …. When in fight the man receives these wounds - it(he) prolongs to resist, it(he) is possible will die of these wounds later, but some more seconds (and sometimes and minutes) it(he) can shoot in you. I saw by the eyes, when at the criminal shot 6 times from AK-74 (have got), but it(he) prolonged to shoot in policemen. It(he) has died later, but it(he) had time(was in time) to wound 2 policemen.

The weapon 7,62 leaves less terrible wounds. But, falling in the man these bullets inject it(him) out of operation practically instantaneously. The man will be possible to have not fatal wounds, but it(he) ceases to resist.

I think, that it is very important at a short-range combat.

As, the weapon 5,45 has a very large skip (recoiling of a bullet at hit in subjects). Practically it is impossible to shoot through scrubs or branchess of trees in a forest. As it is impossible to apply in city and in the house is present HORROR, when you do(make) sequential queue of outrigger booms in a room. You sit(land) on a sex and start to be asked, that your bullet would not get in you.

As the weapon 5,45 has very low efficiency after 600 meters. This bullet loses all advantages.

I know, that when there was a rifle M16 (NO M16A1) is was planned(glided) as weapon for export - for countries of Indochina. The people there low and gentle. Therefore damages from 5,56 for them were very much both very essential. The Europeans and Americans - other people and consequently, I think, that 5,56 and 5,45 is unsufficiently for them.

Michail Kalaschnikov as was against calibre 5,45 mm. Russia very closely has learnt experience of war in Vietnam. The very large experiments were conducted. Also there was a solution about NO of efficiency 5,56mm. But the Russian large generals thought on another and consequently has appeared AK-74.

It would be very interesting to hear in this section of the American veterans of army and police, which one substantially applied AR against an enemy and have the judgement concerning efficiency of weapon 5,56 and 7,62.

Vladimir Makarov

[LittleJacek]

There are experiments going on with very very large 5.56 projectiles.... all the ways up to 100 grn.. It turns out that if you raise the balistic coeficient by increasing the projectiles length the round shatters in body mass. Some of our guys are using the 77grn MatchKing 5.56 round in Afghanistan right now... it seems to have improved the fragmentation range over the 62grn SS109 round even though it has less velocity... and it also is supposed to penetrate the heavy leathers that they are wearing much better at range. It would be great to have an AK chambered for a 7.62x39 cartidge case necked down to a 5.45 projectile.....It would seem that you could get several hundred feet per second more out of it than the standard 5.45.

you are right about 7.62 projectiles... they just go through large amounts of stuff!!! and 1 solid hit and they will drop like a rock.


LittleJacek

[confederate]

220 Russian would be close

[hkrustofski]

I don't have any personal enounters to relate to, instead I can quote what I've heard and seen:

1 - When training Mountainyard troops in Laos, CIA supplied them with AR-15 (M-16) rifles. One such advisor went on a patrol with several Mountainyard troops. He recounted one encounter when they hit an NVA patrol, and ducked into the bushes. One of the patrolling NVA was walking right towards the advisor. His Mountanyard companion saw this, and unloaded an entire clip into the VNA guy's chest. The operative (CIA) described it as seeing the vest of the NVA tooper explode, but he only fell 3-4 seconds after the entire 30 round magazine was fed into him.

2 - From "BlackHawk Down" book. Delta force snipers prefer to use M-1A (M-14) rifles, because they want to see the guy drop down when they hit him.

3 - From the same book, a SAW operative (Squad Automatic Weapon) shot a Somali elderly, carrying an AK in the chest. It didn't phase him. He shot him again, nothing. He shot him another 5 times, the man kept walking. He opened up on the guy and sawed him in half with the SAW. The Somali dropped.

4 - IDF (Israeli defence force) for close quarters battle in 1967 liberation of Jerusalem used UZI smg in .45, 220 Grain against Jordanian forces hiding in concrete encased trenches. They were very successful 1 - 2 bullets and the enemy is knocked against the wall.

My own personal experience.

7.62x54R - 200 Grain Wolf. 800 meters steel target produces a resound "bang". Makes the 1" steel plate jump. The same caliber, 148 grain bullet - much weaker sound. 7.62x39 120 grain - up to 600 meters produces a good "boom", any further and it's weak. .223 - up to 500 meters, any further and you can't tell whether it hit, unless you look at the target.

My opinion.

a) Sniper rifles should not be chambered with anything lighter than 180 Grains for long distance work of up to 1000 meters.
b) AK-47 encorporates the best features of both worlds.

1 - The round is light enough to be carried in bulk.
2 - The bullet is heavy enough to sufficiently shock the target to get him to drop, even if not producing a fatal wound.

-H

[confederate]

I perfer the 5.56 AK for with in 100 yds and the 7.62 AK to 350-400. Beyond that is made for the M14/M1A:D

I haven't scoped the 308 Yugo to compare to the M14, I'm almost sure the 14 will be sharper :p

Vladimir, what is the distance from the weapon to the target on the wound ballistics you show?

[LittleJacek]

7.62 ak's average around 4-6moa(i'm sure this could be improved)..... that is horrible for anything past 200 yards....... even if you are dead on it doesn't mean you will score a hit... that is not good , especially if you target is skinny, hehehe.




LittleJacek

[hkrustofski]

Originally posted by LittleJacek
7.62 ak's average around 4-6moa(i'm sure this could be improved)..... that is horrible for anything past 200 yards....... even if you are dead on it doesn't mean you will score a hit... that is not good , especially if you target is skinny, hehehe.




LittleJacek

Jasek,
7.62x39, necked down to 6mm produces 6PPC - a bench rest cartridge. My AK will hit within 6" at 200 meters even off-hand.

-H

[RJ Shooter]

hkrustofski, you gotta remember that in Somalia (BHD) that all of the enemy aggressors (skinnies) were doped up on KAT. When one is high, it is hard for the body to go into shock, even when shot.

Shock is what drops a person when shot. Not the bullet size. This is why some smaller rounds do have better "shock" value at shorter ranges, but not at longer ranges.

Vladimir's graphics are correct, at the ranges specified, but with distance and elevation, all of these variables can change. I personally think shot placement on a non-drugged target is more important than the round itself. I'd feel comfortable going into combat with all of the rounds mentioned above...

[hkrustofski]

Originally posted by RJ Shooter
hkrustofski, you gotta remember that in Somalia (BHD) that all of the enemy aggressors (skinnies) were doped up on KAT. When one is high, it is hard for the body to go into shock, even when shot.

How is that different from an adrenaline rush the charging attacker usually has?

-H

[RJ Shooter]

Originally posted by hkrustofski
How is that different from an adrenaline rush the charging attacker usually has?

-H From what I have read, a whole hell of a lot of difference.

With adrenaline, you still have self-realization and know reality. You just have more strength and energy.

With narcotics however, you have an uncontrolled mind-altering behavior. With a drug like KAT, you have no reality, and have an unrealistic feeling of invencibility. Your mind doesn't know reality, and doesn't necessarily know it has been shot. Many a police shooting with a doped up perp ends with dozens of rounds in the person.

I have also heard the same about the NVA and Opium, etc...

[hkrustofski]

:)
Not being a drug user myself, I'll have to defer the analysis to someone better qualified, and cannot rebute your statements, however. Speaking for myself, when rushing an enemy position, there is a sence of:
1 - Commitment
2 - Determination
3 - Focus
4 - Desire to reach the enemy and kill him with your own bare hands if need be.
These factors will definitely keep one's mind off any physical damage one might encounter while being shot with .223. On the other hand, if one is shot with a heavier round, like .308 one feels like he's being hit with a baseball bat, which definitely knocks one back, if not out.

The "baseball bat" analogy was taken from the interview of a wounded British trooper, who was shot in the legg while in the Folklands war. Both Brits and Agrentines carried an FN FAL variant in .308 NATO.

-H

[LittleJacek]

so you fire 3moa offhand with an ak?





LittleJacek

[hkrustofski]

Originally posted by LittleJacek
so you fire 3moa offhand with an ak?


LittleJacek

Roma insists I leave my AK at home when I come over. If you ask, I'll bring it with me!
:)
-H

[LittleJacek]

you can use my m1a : )
that way you won't have to deal with california customs, hehe.


LittleJacek

[hkrustofski]

Originally posted by LittleJacek
you can use my m1a : )
that way you won't have to deal with california customs, hehe.


LittleJacek

How 'bout we have friendly competition you with your m1a, and I with my M-39? Looser buys a bottle of absolut (.750 ml). Deal?
:)
-H

[LittleJacek]

if we are going to go bolt i will use my 700.

[hkrustofski]

Sold to the American with a 700!
:)
-H

[LittleJacek]

you are really going to use a 39 against a 700 win mag?

[hkrustofski]

Jasek,
The worst that can happen is I'll buy liquor, which I would do anyway, bro! Bring yer cannon and we'll make small holes in a large piece of paper!
-H

[LittleJacek]

w0000t sounds excellent!!! : ) I would buy as well.... i'm not much into competition... have you ever shot competitively??? you sound like you have a very steady off hand.



LittleJacek

[hkrustofski]

Nah, can't take the pressure, hate loosing, and hate embarassing my friends. I like to think that if the time comes, I'll be able to protect those next to me, in the mean time - practice, practice, practice, ... errr whenever my wife lets me, that is :D.
-H

[LittleJacek]

very cool repsonse.......... I suck ass offhand to tell you the truth... I am very much a prone man myself.... i'm not too bad with a knee down though..
although offhand with a short rifle seems to fit me better.... my short arms get fatigued quite easily with longer rifles because my forearm extends out so much.. that is one reason i like m4's so much.... the magazine is straight enough that i can tuck my forearm up under my elbow very well.

LittleJacek

[hkrustofski]

Originally posted by LittleJacek
very cool repsonse.......... I suck ass offhand to tell you the truth... I am very much a prone man myself.... i'm not too bad with a knee down though..
although offhand with a short rifle seems to fit me better.... my short arms get fatigued quite easily with longer rifles because my forearm extends out so much.. that is one reason i like m4's so much.... the magazine is straight enough that i can tuck my forearm up under my elbow very well.

LittleJacek

Bro, I've seen a very good techniquie used by Finns: Basically keep your left hand as close to your body as possible so that it rests on your chest (having a belly helps! :D). If your gun rests on your left palm by it's trigger guard, so much the better. Open your palm so as to serve as a shooting stick, or relax so that your fingers touch the rifle. Do not grab. Raise the rifle as high as possible so that you don't have to move your head too much. Tilt backward so that the center of gravity is exactly beneath your feet. Lean to the right a little. Relax. Take 2 normal breaths, and one deep one. Exhale almost all the air, and hold your breath. You have 5 seconds. Watch your heart beat, and follow the retticle movement, apply steady pressure. Know your rifle! Fire when ready.

:)

-H

[LittleJacek]

I'm south paw and pretty short...5'6/7ish... its funny if i tuck my elbow my hand will rest on the trigger guard LOL.... its not so bad with my m1a's and ar's(my M4 is exceptionally well balanced when i grip the delta ring).... but the curved mag on the ak gets in the way quite a bit...although i should try some of the 20 rounders.... i bet i could get my forearm a bit more vertical. with prone i can lay at an angle to get my forward arm under the rifle better than standing....plus i find prone very comfortable.. a lot of people don't but for some reason i do , i could lay prone all day, heh. When are you coming over to Romans? let me know i will find some good blasting 300win mag ammo... well ammo that isn't 35bucks for 20 rounds lol.



LittleJacek

[hkrustofski]

Originally posted by LittleJacek
I'm south paw and pretty short...5'6/7ish... its funny if i tuck my elbow my hand will rest on the trigger guard LOL.... its not so bad with my m1a's and ar's(my M4 is exceptionally well balanced when i grip the delta ring).... but the curved mag on the ak gets in the way quite a bit...although i should try some of the 20 rounders.... i bet i could get my forearm a bit more vertical. with prone i can lay at an angle to get my forward arm under the rifle better than standing....plus i find prone very comfortable.. a lot of people don't but for some reason i do , i could lay prone all day, heh. When are you coming over to Romans? let me know i will find some good blasting 300win mag ammo... well ammo that isn't 35bucks for 20 rounds lol.



LittleJacek

Jasek, read my posts to Makarov. This is exacly my compaint. Anyhew, your hand is supposed to rest on a trigger guard, or a magazine in case of a nagant. :)

Roma will send me his address and phone # in 2 weeks or so. I'm thinking it will be this month.

Regards,
-H

[Redrug]

I had the oppertunity to view numbers of wounds caused by 5.56 bullets when in RVN in 1969-70.At the time I noticed some wounds were straight pass thrus and others exrteamly damageing. A medical corpsman gave me the answer. Bullets that passed thru soft tissue appeared often as if the soldier had been stuck with an icepick. Bullets that struck bone could produce devestating ones.This fact seemed to be more important than bullet cavity.

[Bam Bam]

Thanks for sharing your personal experience and the charts Makarov.
The current Wolf fmj has a hollow tip, which causes the the bullet to turn sideways quickly in a soft medium, and stay sideways, from what I have read of informal testing. I believe the Wolf fmj we get in US, is current Russian army issue ammo. That might account for it working as well as Makarov has seen.
It would be nice if the Russians could make a 100 grain 7.62x39 with air pocket in nose. Speed it up by 300 or 400 fps and flatten the trajectory a little.

[makarov]

YOU speak about these Russian cartridges? It not military cartridges. It is cartridges for the civilians.
The military cartridges have very much high quality and very good characteristics. The civil cartridges have on 20 % worse characteristics.

http://www.hunting-pictures.com/members/makarov47/P1.jpg


http://www.hunting-pictures.com/members/makarov47/P2.jpg

Vladimir Makarov

[Bam Bam]

Hi there Vladmir. I had been told by someone very well informed on Russian weapons and ammo, that Wolf or Barnaul fmj was same ammo as Russian troops get. Guess he doesn't know everything. :)

[Fistula]

makarov-

Two questions:

1. If I understand it, are you saying that the commercial ammo (like Wolf and Silver Bear) are of a LOWER quality than Russian military ammo?

2. Are you saying, that in your experience, 7.62x39 will put a man down faster than the 5.45 even though the wound is not as grave?

Thanks.