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Thread: lighten and balence the bolt help

  1. #1

    lighten and balence the bolt help

    i just picked up a WASR 10/63. from what i have shot of it and seen inline the bolt seems to throw the rifle all over. so the plan is to try to put the bolt carries on my buddy's lathe and shave some metal of to balance and lighten it. since i dont have alot of exp. with ak's i would like to know if its a good idea? any advice is appreciated.

  2. #2
    Team Gunsnet SILVER 05/2012 deth502's Avatar

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    no.

  3. #3
    not much information in your post and i know its done with sub machine guns to increase rate of fire and take out recoil what makes an ak diferent

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    Team Gunsnet SILVER 05/2012 deth502's Avatar

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    which sub-machine guns are you talking about? how do they function? are the ones your mentioning fire from an open bolt? im betting they do. does the ak fire from an open bolt? no. do the ones your speaking of have any kind of lock/delay? im betting they dont. the ak does. it fires from a locked bolt and is gas operated. you are comparing apples and oranges. the operating principles of one have nothing to do with another. from the fact that you cannot tell these things apart alone tell me that you are not familiar with firearms enough at all to even begin to attempt any kind of diy gunsmithing. the carrier your thinking of has remained completely unchanged since 1947, with nearly 65 years of being studied by the top govt engineers from the hundreds of countries that field the weapon, and none of them, with their centuries of combined experience, saw fit to modify said carrier in any way.

    now, if your looking for more specific reasons, since you arent at all familiar with the way firearms operate, the simplest way i can put it is that lightening the carrier will make it travel FASTER. which means that it will hit your rear trunnion going FASTER. energy=mass x velocity squared.

  5. #5
    putting a stiffer spring in and adjusting the gas flow would fix the slaming issue and please dont presume my knowledge of fire arms. i didnt post this thread to have a pissing contest. i posted it to discuss the possibility of it and if you have an issue with that then take it some where else please

  6. #6
    Administrator imanaknut's Avatar

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    Welcome to the group !!!

    The select fire AK actually has a rate reducer in it to make it more controllable during full auto fire. If anything, I would suggest installing a Blackjack buffer in your rifle to prevent the carrier from slamming into the rear of the receiver.

    The AK seems to be the reverse of most full auto rifles in that it was too fast to begin with, so had to be slowed down.

    With a semi-auto, you really don't have the same issues, but I would suggest the buffer. I personally have a Blackjack buffer in all of the AK variants that I shoot.

    If you don't want to go the buffer route, you could get a stiffer recoil spring, but let me warn you they are a bear to replace. Can be done, but not easily.

    If any trimming of the carrier is needed, I have seen some that strike the top of the rear sight base. It will leave a witness mark on the carrier top just behind the gas piston. If it is showing signs of a strike in that area, check the gas piston. They are supposed to be loose on the carrier. Century has a habit of welding the piston to the carrier instead of turning it on until snug, then backing off 1/4 to 1/2 a turn, then pinning. An improperly installed gas piston could also be at the root of the issues you seem to be having.

  7. #7
    i seemed to have found the biggest problem and hope it will help a lot. the bolt was catching on the hammer pretty bad so i shaved it down to a better shape (that wont effect the hammer hitting the pin). i really like improving military surplus fire arms and would like to see how far i can take this ak and i dont mean by buying a bunch of crap to putt on it. i know there is some issue with the bolt being heavier on one side then the other effecting recoil and would like to balance it then compensate fore the weight reduction.

  8. #8
    Team Gunsnet SILVER 05/2012 deth502's Avatar

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    yup, the "whale hump" on the hammer is a common problem. there were many a tutorial for it on the old site.

    and yes, you are correct in that the best way to solve the problem is to regulate the gas flow. a much quicker, yet less effective way would be the buffer.

    i am all for helping you with whatever you are able to do, but i stand by my previous statements, and the implied sternness behind them, that you are dealing with dangerously high pressures detonating within inches of your face, and screwing with something you dont understand can have very dire consequences. there is a lot of engineering that goes into firearms designing, and to just completely bypass it all on a "hunch" is just looking for trouble.

    im not looking to start a pissing match with this, i just dont want to see you on the news with an ak gas piston driven through your forehead.

  9. #9
    [QUOTE=deth502;206721im not looking to start a pissing match with this, i just dont want to see you on the news with an ak gas piston driven through your forehead.[/QUOTE]

    I kinda like those videos of the "bolt thru the head phenomenon" I just wouldn't like to see it happen to someone that I know. Darwins Theory has a way of cleansing society of would be gunsmiths and bomb technicians rather violently ..................

  10. #10
    i will mod the gas tube to make it ajustable before i do anything to the bolt. this is far from my first project just my first one with an ak

  11. #11
    Team Gunsnet SILVER 05/2012 deth502's Avatar

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    Quote Originally Posted by bigtoedbushman View Post
    i will mod the gas tube to make it ajustable before i do anything to the bolt. this is far from my first project just my first one with an ak
    by the time the piston has entered the tube the carrier has got just about as much push from the gas as its going to get. dissipating it from the tube will not show many results. the place to do it would be the gas block in the tube that goes from the barrel to the face of the piston in the top of the gas block. this has been tried before, the main problems there are that the gas, at that point, is still VERY HOT, and under EXTREME PRESSURE, and screw in threads in that area to regulate it dont tend to have a very long life cycle. these are the things you will need to watch out for.

  12. #12
    Administrator imanaknut's Avatar

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    For what it's worth, by the time the end of the gas piston has entered the gas tube, it's job is finished. If you notice the flutes along the gas tube for venting the gases into the receiver area, or on the Romanian rifles, the holes formed around the gas block where the tube goes into it, all do a great job of venting any excess gasses just like Mr. K. designed it, but if you want, vent the gas tube all you want, you really won't be hurting anything.

  13. #13
    Administrator imanaknut's Avatar

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    Thanks for typing faster than me deth502!!!!

  14. #14
    what thread and screw size would be the most reliable? ill be dropping it off at a gunsmith to have it drilled and tapped in a couple days.(it seam i little to precise for me to have to monkey with it and for 30 bucks why risk it)

    when i got back from shooting it today i noticed that the rubber pad i was imprinted by the bolt. i think turning down the gas will give me alot of improvment for fast fallow up shots.

  15. #15
    oh and the trigger pull was a little long and way to light for my big clumsy hands. so would it be better to adjust it on the hammer or the hook. i was thinking the hook would be easier to change the angle on and shorten on the hammer.

  16. #16
    Team Gunsnet SILVER 05/2012 deth502's Avatar

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    again, triggers are another thing you really dont want to screw with if your not familiar with the design.

    your never going to get a "good" trigger pull form an ak without putting an entire different set up in there.

    that said, to shorten the pull, there is much more involved. you cant just change one aspect without having to redesign everything. if you shorten either the trigger hook, of the hammer mating area, you are creating a shorter angle of operation of the hammer that it needs to operate in. at that point there will be a spot in the trigger pull where you will release the hammer, but the trigger will not be back far enough to catch the hammer on the disconnector. at best, the hammer will fall and lose its energy on the carrier tail, as its designed to do. at worst, the gun will detonate a round before the chamber has closed, at the very minimum, damaging the gun. and adjusting the angles on the sear engagement surfaces can result in a condition where the gun fires by itself at will.

    i hope that was better than "dont do it", which would be my first inclination to post.

  17. #17
    i see what your talking about but i do have a bump on my hook that if i decide to let off the trigger mid pull it will get cought on. am i good to level it off

  18. #18
    Team Gunsnet SILVER 05/2012 deth502's Avatar

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    that in itself also sounds like a dangerous condition.

    both your primary and secondary sears should have a negative engagement angle. the primary sear being the mating surfaces between the hammer and trigger and the secondary being the contact surfaces between the hammer and disconnector.

    what this means, is that if you field strip your rifle (top cover and carrier removed) to where you can clearly see the fcg, at rest, the hammer should be fully seated in the hook on the trigger. pull the trigger slowly and watch the hammer (dont dry fire it, you could bend your cross support) it may even help to put a finger on it, you may be able to feel it easier than you can see it, plus it will help you catch the hammer should you pull the trigger too far. anyway, as you pull the trigger back, you should see the hammer COCKING BACK FURTHER. it should not begin to drop.

  19. #19
    Team Gunsnet SILVER 05/2012 deth502's Avatar

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    oops, premature post on that one.

    back to it, that is whats meant by a negative engagement angle. if the hammer moves forward, as to drop, that is a positive engagement angle, and thats the point where you have to worry about the gun firing at will. now when you let go of the trigger, the spring should have sufficient force to reset the trigger fully. if it stays part way pulled, that is also not good. if there is a "bump", fix it if you can, but be sure to check to make sure that you didnt fuck up the negative engagement angle, or the ability of the trigger to fully reset when released.

    the disc also must have a negative engagement angle, but it works the opposite way. hold the trigger back all the way, then push teh hammer down so that it gets caught. as you lessen pressure on the trigger, adn it begins to reset, watch the hammer, again, it should COCK BACK FURTHER as you release the trigger, until it eventually falls off of the disconnector, at which point it had better be caught by the primary sear on the hammer, or thats another problem.

  20. #20
    Team Gunsnet SILVER 05/2012 deth502's Avatar

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    one thing you can do, maybe, to make the trigger better is to go for a 2 stage pull.

    this dosent always work with the geometry of every ak trigger. sometimes it does, sometimes it dosent. ive never loked closely enough to see why the fuck ups happen, but they do. apparently teh manuf tolerances of the ak are not that tight .big surprise, lol.

    what youll need to do, is to remove material from teh front bottom of the disconnector, very slowly, very small amounts at a time, and checking often. what your looking for, it is possible to get it set up so that as you are pulling the trigger, just before it breaks, the top of the disconnector will hit the hammer, at which point, for that last small amoount of trigger pull, you will also have to compress the disc spring , making the feel of a distinct 2nd stage right before it breaks.

    again, this dosent always work. ive seen a few times that by the time you take enough off of the disc to get the desired effect, it is at the point that the disc is so far forward that it will NEVER release the hammer to the primary sear to fire. so dont attempt it if your not willing to replace some shit if it goes south. ive never put much time into this mod, as the trigger dosent really bother me, but im sure there are work arounds, like maye a spot of weld on top of the disc?? idk.

    but whatever you do , make sure you dont fuck up the geometry of the fcg, always test to make sure that you have negative engagement on both sears, and that the primary sear ALWAYS catches the hammer when released from teh secondary sear.

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