If I were him, I would have just stayed in jail and cooled my heels, ride it out and let all the anger die down. It's not like he's going to be able to work and hold a job short of getting a total make-over/plastic-surgery. May as well get free meals and room and board so at to not be a burden on his family.
Consider Casey Anthony -- guilty as fuck of killing her toddler and hiding the body so she could party like a single again -- even though the jury didn't convict her of murder, just the fact that she spent 4 years in jail was at least something to satisfy the community's bloodlust.
Zimmerman is going to need to do some time, or else he'll be a marked man.
"That tyranny has all the vices both of democracy and oligarchy is evident. As of oligarchy so of tyranny, the end is wealth; (for by wealth only can the tyrant maintain either his guard or his luxury). Both mistrust the people, and therefore deprive them of their arms." -- Aristotle, Book V, 350 B.C.E
The precedent being set by all this is very bad, might as well have no neighborhood watches, no one can take interest of anything outside of their yard (probably homes), people must obey the phone commands of a 911 dispatcher, self defense must start from a presumption of guilt and not innocence, etc...
If Zimmerman is guilty your CCW's, right of self defense and carry firearms will be take a giant step to be worthless. This case might do more for the antigunners then anything Congress has managed in almost 20 years.
I don't agree. Every official neighborhood watch program out there instructs its watchers to NOT be armed, to NOT confront suspects, to just be good steward and call the cops and let them investigate. Nowhere does it say that a neighborhood watch "captain" is supposed to stalk a suspect then provoke him. From what we know of Trayvon's call to his girlfriend which ended just a minute before the shots rang out on the other 911 call, Trayvon was making a good faith effort to flee when Zimmerman caught up with him.
I certainly don't think this is a case that pro-gun folks should try to hang their hats on, or try to claim "Stand Your Ground" is justified here, or that law may very well be jeopardized indeed.
"That tyranny has all the vices both of democracy and oligarchy is evident. As of oligarchy so of tyranny, the end is wealth; (for by wealth only can the tyrant maintain either his guard or his luxury). Both mistrust the people, and therefore deprive them of their arms." -- Aristotle, Book V, 350 B.C.E
there's too many "facts" in dispute . . . so far the only ones not in dispute the kid died of a GSW and Zimmerman fired the shot . . at the end of the trial I hope everyone can accept the verdict
Are you in a neighborhood watch program? I am and I can tell you Zimmerman was probably doing what most do in such a program daily (actually the day the Zimmerman story broke I had confronted a thug wannabee in the neighborhood with me being armed). It will simply be the end of many a neighborhood watch program due to lack of people willing to do it out of fear of arrest or the mantra of "neighborhood watch" now being used as code for "racist vigilante".
I would also predict this is the end of the time of expanding CCW rights, from here on out it's going to fight to keep what we have. It is foolish to think progunners will use Zimmerman as an example but I would bet you $100 within 90 days the anti's will. Then we have people like you are arguing the police (and it really doesn't have to be police when a 911 dispatcher will do) can phone in orders for civilians to follow (amazingly you're defending increasing the police state in a way you'd never follow yourself).
I am not as optimistic as you that people like you can attack these things on so many levels and they will prevail as they have.
All I know is that Zimmerman's lawyer really better shut his client up. The more he talks, the more he incriminates himself. Consider his non-apology at his bail hearing last week:
...which doesn't jive with what he told the 911 operator:I wanted to say I am sorry for the loss of your son. I did not know how old he was, Mr. Zimmerman, 28, said, speaking publicly for the first time about the Feb. 26 shooting. I thought he was a little bit younger than I am. I did not know if he was armed or not.
Dumb mother fucker needs to just shut the fuck up before he digs his hole any deeper.911 dispatcher: How old would you say he is?
Zimmerman: Hes got something on his shirt. About like his late teens.
He certainly shouldn't be posting any more on his web-site here: http://www.TheRealGeorgeZimmerman.com/
He's going to hang himself.
"That tyranny has all the vices both of democracy and oligarchy is evident. As of oligarchy so of tyranny, the end is wealth; (for by wealth only can the tyrant maintain either his guard or his luxury). Both mistrust the people, and therefore deprive them of their arms." -- Aristotle, Book V, 350 B.C.E
I would say one was taken from the observation of a distance (looks like a kid) and the other when it's up close, looking bigger and bashing his head in the ground ( looks older). Still though none of that changes that you are promoting allowing the police to phone in orders for us to follow (which I bet you'd never do) or that the anti's will take up where you might wish to stop when it comes to firearms rights.
So do we have a $100 bet or not![]()
No, I agree with you. The antis really are circling this case like sharks, they want to repeal SYG and end legal CCW altogether. Which is why I think its very dangerous for the pro-gun side to defend Zimmerman, and I really hope he doesn't get any traction with his claims of self-defense, because that will be bad news for us all.
"That tyranny has all the vices both of democracy and oligarchy is evident. As of oligarchy so of tyranny, the end is wealth; (for by wealth only can the tyrant maintain either his guard or his luxury). Both mistrust the people, and therefore deprive them of their arms." -- Aristotle, Book V, 350 B.C.E
At this point I would note (again) you've been the biggest proponent of obeying phone commands by 911 dispatchers. If you're concerned about gun owners using Zimmerman to the detriment of gun rights you really ought to consider what some of your arguments are doing for personal freedom in general...![]()
Maybe it just shows the futility of involving the police at all. I mean, if you set yourself up for a confrontation, going out of your way and trying to take the law into your own hands and being a self-appointed hero, it doesn't make much sense to notify the authorities of your intentions at all. In the end, it may very well be that 911 call Zimmerman made that drives the final nails in his coffin with a jury.
I don't think they'll find him guilty of pre-meditated Murder 2, but if the prosecutors are smart, they'll add a lesser included charge of Manslaughter, and he'll be convicted of that. He'll probably have to do 7 years, then once he gets out most people will have forgotten or moved on, and he can resume his life again.
Otherwise, if he is acquitted, he'll never find peace.
"That tyranny has all the vices both of democracy and oligarchy is evident. As of oligarchy so of tyranny, the end is wealth; (for by wealth only can the tyrant maintain either his guard or his luxury). Both mistrust the people, and therefore deprive them of their arms." -- Aristotle, Book V, 350 B.C.E
Yep, kinda funny isn't it..... If a 911 operator told me to put my weapons away when I called during a home invasion, LAGC would be okay with that? If someone followed a shooter into Luby's saying they were acting funny and the 911 operator said don't follow him, just let us handle it and shot them when attacked LAGC would be for prosecuting him?
Apples and oranges. If someone is kicking in your door or brandishing a weapon in a robbery, you know they have criminal intentions, and you have every right to shoot in self-defense. There is absolutely no doubt about it. But in this instant case, what you have is some 17-year-old kid, carrying A BAG OF SKITTLES AND A CAN OF ICED-TEA doing nothing more suspicious than letting his eyes wander as he lazily walks back to his home after dark.
Do you guys honestly not see how an acquittal in this case -- especially if done on SYG grounds -- would be bad news for gun rights in general? Far better for there to be a conviction, and SYG not found to be at fault or applicable in this case.
"That tyranny has all the vices both of democracy and oligarchy is evident. As of oligarchy so of tyranny, the end is wealth; (for by wealth only can the tyrant maintain either his guard or his luxury). Both mistrust the people, and therefore deprive them of their arms." -- Aristotle, Book V, 350 B.C.E
The thing is the 911 dispatcher knows nothing of the case except a law abiding citizen was calling them asking for help.
I bet you could call 911 anytime and get 9 out of 10 times the advice of putting your firearm up and to obey the assailant. In fact I'm sure right now the proactive advice most LEO's give when a civilian is faced with some unknown assailant is to obey them and do exactly as told (again this proactive advice).
I think a good case could be made that now the police would probably advise us all not to carry and to obey any criminal already, as I said our CCW's just took a big hit... As far as SYG, I think it's best to give self defense benefit of the doubt, to start with self defense needing to prove innocence goes against the BOR.
Last edited by mriddick; 04-23-2012 at 04:19 PM.
the burden of proof is on the prosecution
Indeed, as it always is. And I still believe its better for 1 guilty man to go free than 100 innocents be falsely convicted, but I stand by what I said above. An acquittal in this case will not end well for gun rights.
I almost wish Zimmerman didn't have a legal permit to carry, because it betrays the fact that CCW permit holders are far less likely to be involved in a crime than the general populace at large. The antis are already ramping up their "racist vigilante" meme, which ignores the fact that permit-holders are by and large responsible gun-owners who take their rights seriously and would never abuse it to the detriment of gun-owners at large.
This whole case, and all its surrounding circumstances, is just real sad all the way around.
"That tyranny has all the vices both of democracy and oligarchy is evident. As of oligarchy so of tyranny, the end is wealth; (for by wealth only can the tyrant maintain either his guard or his luxury). Both mistrust the people, and therefore deprive them of their arms." -- Aristotle, Book V, 350 B.C.E
How exactly does a "win" in this case do more damage then a "loss" for a whole host of personal and gun right freedoms? I'm not sure anyone is really arguing the case on SYG anyway...besides Florida anti's in the legislature are already reviewing SYG without waiting for an outcome of the case, sort of negates the whole we need a verdict one way or the other to start the anti's moving...
Last edited by mriddick; 04-23-2012 at 04:48 PM.
Well, a conviction would show that even SYG does not give carte blanche immunity to those who go out of their way looking for trouble, I would think. Therefore, the law doesn't need to be repealed. (Which would be a good thing, as I think Stand Your Ground is a decent law, overall.)
I fail to see where loss of personal freedoms would factor in, except on the shooter's part if he has to spend a few years in prison. But considering the circumstances, I really think that would be a better option for him anyway, long-term, as its going to take some time for all the anger and outrage to simmer down and wounds to heal.
"That tyranny has all the vices both of democracy and oligarchy is evident. As of oligarchy so of tyranny, the end is wealth; (for by wealth only can the tyrant maintain either his guard or his luxury). Both mistrust the people, and therefore deprive them of their arms." -- Aristotle, Book V, 350 B.C.E
regardless of the outcome of this case there is no "win" only varying degrees of loss
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