Caseless ammo could cut 25 lbs. from gear

[Gunreference1]

Caseless ammo could cut 25 lbs. from gear

By James K. Sanborn - Staff writer
Posted : Monday May 21, 2012 8:20:03 EDT

The Marine Corps and Army are developing new caseless and case-telescoped ammunition that, when partnered with a new light machine gun also in development, could significantly cut the burden on troops in combat. And perhaps more significant than that, in the coming years this revolutionary ammo could drive production of the Corps’ next service rifle.

Caseless ammunition, which is free of the heavy brass casings found on traditional cartridges, will allow Marines to carry more rounds or simply shed weight — up to 25 pounds for the typical M249 Squad Automatic Weapon gunner, said George Solhan, the Office of Naval Research’s deputy chief researcher for expeditionary maneuver warfare. Some of the ammo and weapon systems now in development could be ready for action in just a year or two, according to researchers.

To read the rest of the story click the link below.

http://www.marinecorpstimes.com/news...ne-gun-052112/

Steve

[alismith]

Didn't someone try this back in the 70's or 80's and meet with dubious success?

It's a great idea if they can get it to work as well as cased ammo. The designer only has to worry about loading the caseless ammo and not about having to eject anything.

How is this design any different from earlier attempts?

Wouldn't these bullet-powder combos be more fragile than cased ammo?

And, how about moisture problems?

[Schuetzenman]

Oh no, not this pipe dream again! Caseless ammo is always a failure for a host of reason.

1. Rough handling breaks the powder off the projectile.
2. Water proofing the powder, never proven 100% yet.
3. This is the biggest reason, sustained full auto fire gets the chamber hot and then you have cook-off problems. The brass case insulates the powder, with caseless you have nothing to keep a red hot chamber off the powder.

As such caseless weapons would need to be open bolt. Open bolt = dirt and water gets in easy, also not overly accurate.

[Penguin]

Oh no, not this pipe dream again! Caseless ammo is always a failure for a host of reason.

1. Rough handling breaks the powder off the projectile.
2. Water proofing the powder, never proven 100% yet.
3. This is the biggest reason, sustained full auto fire gets the chamber hot and then you have cook-off problems. The brass case insulates the powder, with caseless you have nothing to keep a red hot chamber off the powder.

As such caseless weapons would need to be open bolt. Open bolt = dirt and water gets in easy, also not overly accurate.

That is what crossed my mind as well. It is great in theory, I have yet to see it really work.

[Bluntforce]

Caseless pistol ammo in a silenced weapon would have real and useful assassination applications (i.e. no case to point back to you, also no ejection port to catch in clothes, no fte/ftf.)

Outside of this, it's pretty damned useless.

[macddesign]

caseless ammo would not require an ejection port so the chamber would not have to be exposed to the elamentst on an open bolt weapon , the whole are could be sealed off.

[Schuetzenman]

caseless ammo would not require an ejection port so the chamber would not have to be exposed to the elamentst on an open bolt weapon , the whole are could be sealed off.

Therfore no cooling and if a round ever missfeeds, no way to clear it short of removing the magazine or breaking the weapon open and pulling the bolt groupl. Marvelous!

[Schuetzenman]

Caseless pistol ammo in a silenced weapon would have real and useful assassination applications (i.e. no case to point back to you, also no ejection port to catch in clothes, no fte/ftf.)

Outside of this, it's pretty damned useless.

Failure to extract I'll give you that point. Failure to feed I don't see that one. Caseless or not the round has to be feed from a magazine into a chamber. In as much as the powder is now the case that is going to get shoved in the chamber by the bolt group, I expect greater issues with missfeeding. The powder has to be tough enough to take the hit from a bolt moving at 60 MPH (?) while it strips the round from the magazine and slams it in the chamber. That's asking a lot from something that is then supposed to burn at many times the speed of sound in order to blow a solid object (bullet) down a tube.

[Bluntforce]

Failure to extract I'll give you that point. Failure to feed I don't see that one. Caseless or not the round has to be feed from a magazine into a chamber. In as much as the powder is now the case that is going to get shoved in the chamber by the bolt group, I expect greater issues with missfeeding. The powder has to be tough enough to take the hit from a bolt moving at 60 MPH (?) while it strips the round from the magazine and slams it in the chamber. That's asking a lot from something that is then supposed to burn at many times the speed of sound in order to blow a solid object (bullet) down a tube.

I was thinking failure to feed provided the powder was hard enough to be up to the task. It's probably never going to be practical, however a pistol seems more likely than a machinegun/carbine/rifle. Especially a full power rifle charge. Though a slower firing weapon like a sniper rifle seems more appropriate for this application even though much less likely than a pistol. Slow rate of fire would be more workable.

[Richard Simmons]

H&K tried this with the G-11. One of the main issues was cookoff as stated above. Also read the the brass acts as a conductor and carries some amount of heat with it when it ejects. No brass to eject and the chamber gets hotter and stays hotter longer.

Don't know if the G11 fired from an open or closed bolt but I would imagine using caseless ammo in a open bolt, belt fed (still have to get rid of the links and or belt so it will have to have an ejection port) might not have as much problem with cook off as a closed bolt design.

[5.56NATO]

Caseless pistol ammo in a silenced weapon would have real and useful assassination applications (i.e. no case to point back to you, also no ejection port to catch in clothes, no fte/ftf.)

Outside of this, it's pretty damned useless.

The Russians have a pistol that uses rounds that trap the gas within the case. Kinda neat.

[AK-J]

The G11 used a rotating bolt, and they solved the cookoff problems by changing to propellent to one that took higher temps to cookoff. It was actually about to become general issue, but the unification of Germany squashed that.

Who knows what would have happened if it was widely tested.

[alismith]

Muzzleloaders have used caseless ammo for centuries. The main issue has been rate of fire. 3-4 per minute, in a rifle, was considered pretty good.