That's the folks.Originally Posted by TEN-32
Basically this gives them more grant money to look for and help more kids who may be in bad situations so long as they show a willingness to use federal standards and meet benchmarks for improvement.
Like I said, not exactly the Nazi SS jackbooted thugs.
Dafuq makes you think they need to send agents to every home in America to find out who smokes, has a family member in the service or Home Schools?
They've got a record of every phone call and email in America going back at least half a decade.
Just more head in the sand stupidity. "Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain".
BULLSHIT!!!
Last edited by Dr. Gonzo GED; 08-16-2013 at 12:31 AM.
Yup, because that's what this country really needs to get back on its feet...more government intrusion into our daily lives.
That's certainly going to put people back to work, increase wages, expand the tax base and pay our 16 trillion dollar deficit down.
Not to mention secure our borders from illegal invaders, reduce spending on social programs that support leeches who refuse to work when they're able, cut waste and fraud at all levels of the fedgov (particularly the dim cronyism involved in "green" energy)...
Get with the program Gonzo...we need this kind of interference. You can't turn a 1st world country into Zimbabwe if you're not willing to break a few eggs.
If we refuse to rule ourselves with reason, then we shall be ruled by our passions.
He, Who Will Not Reason, Is a Bigot; He, Who Cannot, Is a Fool; and He, Who Dares Not, Is a Slave. -Sir William Drummond
There are some things I will not abide within my sight!
500,000,000. The U.N. estimates 500,000,000 million firearms in private hands in the United States. That's just the ones on the books, too.
They start messing with peoples kids and those guns are gonna start going "pop".
The regime may think they can handle it, but they're wrong. Even with their security dragnet and fancy weapons of mass destruction they are sorely, pathetically deluded.
They can't even pacify a tiny shithole like Syria.
Sooner or later every last scum bag one of them is going to know how Mussolini felt...
Sorry, I meant to reply sooner, didn't want to blow you off.
I'll just give a few thoughts on why I think they class those as "high risk" and then add a bit at the end
1. Young mothers. Less education, lower wage, may not be familiar with how to raise a child
2.Military families. Most are young couples, often the male is the service member, the woman may be home alone for long stretches while her husband is off to war. Many are in new towns or cities, away from their own family, often giving birth to their first child while the husband is away. And military pay for younger members sucks. We pay them shit, we ask a ton from them, we move them apart from each other...it's not an easy life. It can be overwhelming.
3. Smokers. Children of smokers are much more likely to have asthma and other medical conditions. Sadly, many pregnant women still smoke which makes it that much worse. Others smoke inside the house with young children present. There is a health risk.
4. Homeschoolers. When kids are in schools it's much easier to find out if they are malnourished, abused, and of course actually getting an education. States worry about these kids because they are very "out of sight".
5. Farm kids. Same issues as homeschoolers.
That, I think, is the general logic behind it. As to whether it's right or wrong...probably a bit of both. Some of the best educated kids out there are raised on farms or homeschooled. I've spent time around farm kids and can say my experience is every one of their parents was very serious about their kids education.
But I accept the fact that "my experience" is likely different from other peoples or the "national averages".
However, most farms, even family farms, at least here in Missouri, are run as businesses. These people know math, they know earth sciences, they understand accounting and market forces, and are well versed in both negotiation and contracts. They understand the need for proper and detailed planning, and part of that planning is having educated children.
And with the internet, it's easier than ever before to give a farm kid, or a homeschooled kid a really first rate education.
On the other hand, that "out of sight" thing can be a big issue. The worry is that some parents will be too stupid and too lazy to actually educate their kids and will just fill out the basic necessary paperwork that says "we homeschool".
Is it a valid concern? The problem is it's so hard to tell. Alot of states made some testing mandatory, but it doesn't always tell you much. For some states it's just some mailed tests that could be filled out by someone else.
I do think there is alot of supposition, suspicion, and also projection going on around this.
Some of the city schools, that have money do such a poor job that they assume a homeschooling must be even worse since the home schooled kid doesn't have the "benefit" of a "professional" teacher.
Alot of city parents take no responsibility for their children education, and leave it to the schools, and the schools know it...so the assume rural kids parents must be equally as bad or worse.
The assumptions are, in my opinion, flawed. However, your still going to come across cases where bad situations do exist. The real difference is, is anyone able to see it? It's far easier to find out if the public school kid is underfed or abused, it's just more likely to be reported.
For some of the cases this thinking might be a good thing, young mothers and military families often could use the extra help. Alot of times the social workers are older mothers, they really do show young mothers on their own how to feed a baby, getting it to stop crying, etc. They often have connections to other families and can find free or really cheap hand me down clothing, cribs, and other supplies, or know where second hand shops or flea markets are, know of church rummage sales or various support groups, day cares, job openings
Some situations I'm sure the social workers are an unnecessary pain in the ass, but in others they can really make a difference in the success of raising a child with limited resources or special needs.
Damn...it's amazing we even created a country from mostly wilderness, by your estimation Kadmos...
How did we ever survive or prosper for 200 years without an intrusive nanny state overlord to micro-manage our every action.
And given you've swept pedophilia under the rug with posted studies showing such children 'show no real harm' in adulthood, then why are you so concerned about other abuses? You saying neglect and physical abuse are more detrimental than sexual abuse?
Last edited by Oswald Bastable; 08-16-2013 at 12:54 AM.
If we refuse to rule ourselves with reason, then we shall be ruled by our passions.
He, Who Will Not Reason, Is a Bigot; He, Who Cannot, Is a Fool; and He, Who Dares Not, Is a Slave. -Sir William Drummond
There are some things I will not abide within my sight!
Of course. He's a big supporter of child sexual abuse.
Many didn't survive, many children worked 12+ hour days in deplorable and often fatal positions.
What it took to survive also varied. It's nice to teach your kids to hunt and gather, and hand sew or weave, but in today's world it's not enough for them to be able to get by on those skills alone.
Like it or not, the government does spend alot of money on the people, it makes sense to know if that investment is well spent, or if lack of education is being passed down generation to generation.
That is a truly gross and disgusting mischaracterization of a point I made. I very specifically said that "Most victims of child sexual abuse are not greatly physically harmed"
Someone, who shall not be named, twisted that into some sort of sick endorsement of pedophilia. It most certainly was not. The issue was the child of a vigilante killer of his abuser, who himself said that his father killing the man who abused him caused him much more hurt, pain, shame, and loss than the abuse ever could!
Essentially some sick man put his hand down the kids pants. Yes it's bad, but no the kid wasn't physically harmed. The kids father killed the abuser, on camera, with the abuser was in police custody on his way to trial.
The kid was more confused than ashamed by the actual abuse, but the actions of his father made him feel like he was now "ruined property", so unclean that his father killed someone, and he wished his own father killed him also, which was what he thought his father really wanted to do since his kid was "ruined".
Add to that the fact that the kid then felt his father obviously didn't want to even be around him anymore, as he would rather sit in jail than be with his own son, and the child was far more psychologically damaged by the actions of his father than by his actual abuser.
It's a horrendous story. His father's ridiculous overreaction caused far more harm than anything else in the child's life. It may be all well and good to think "I should kill the bastard who touched my kid", but in reality it's likely not going to do the kid any favors. He much rather would have had his father with him in a confusing and upsetting time.
And I will thank you very much not to willfully misrepresent what I said any further in the future!
Frankly, it's just this side of trolling.
To quote a great liberal thinker...
"What does it matter?"
If we refuse to rule ourselves with reason, then we shall be ruled by our passions.
He, Who Will Not Reason, Is a Bigot; He, Who Cannot, Is a Fool; and He, Who Dares Not, Is a Slave. -Sir William Drummond
There are some things I will not abide within my sight!
Not sure what you are trying to say with that exactly, but I'm actually a rather honorable person. I don't slander other people, and it matters to me that they don't slander me either.
So according to your theory DCFS is going to come "inspect" my home without a warrant because I like cigars? Even you can see the idiocy of this can you not? I mean come on Kadmos...really? Do you even know what DCFS is? What grant money are you talking about (imagining)? Is this an example of you championing a ridiculous liberal position with the hope of engaging Gunsnet folks in a thread locking pissing contest? Isn't this the very thing you are being cautioned about by staff here? I officially toss the penalty flag on this matter. Your pattern is so consistent and so predictable its almost laughable. I submit to the rest of the board that while the Round Table deliberates on how to handle this issue, the very same behavior pattern continues.
Face your fear, accept your war.
FWIW Kadmos is simply expressing his position and trying to explain why he has that position. Opposing viewpoints are just that, opposing. Last I checked Kadmos is pretty liberal in his views so why would any one expect his views in this thread to be any different? If people would follow the site rules there would be no "pissing matches". If someone posts an opinion you disagree with then counter it with your own opinion and what ever facts or references you have to support it.
Gunsnet member since 1999
USN 1978-86
BCCI Life Member #2068
•" We sleep safe in our beds because rough men stand ready in the night to visit violence on those who would do us harm. " George Orwell
Thanks for clearing that up.
Face your fear, accept your war.
It's not a theory, it's what they do in nearly every state, and have done for decades.
But it's not just "He's a smoker toss his house".
What happens usually is something more like your kid has an asthma attack at school. (S)he may mention that you smoke, or smell like smoke. The school may contact DCFS to ask they look into it. DCFS might call or come around and ask if you smoke in the house. They may hand you information that smoking can really aggravate your kids asthma, and that asthma can be very serious in children.
If you agree to quit smoking in the house that will likely be the end of it, followed up perhaps by a quick visit a few weeks or months later.
If it were just because your neighbor saw you smoking a cigar out on your porch, then yes, obviously it's idiocy. If your kid is wheezing and passing out at school, then it's a problem.Even you can see the idiocy of this can you not?
No. It's not. If you read my posts you will see I have some reservations about this idea.Is this an example of you championing a ridiculous liberal position with the hope of engaging Gunsnet folks in a thread locking pissing contest?
I will say I think it's overall a good thing that we have agencies like the DCFS, which can aid children in bad situations.
Most people are of course decent (or wonderful) parents, some really aren't and have no business raising kids.
Yes, the programs are intrusive. Sometimes they are helpful to both the parents and the children though.
In my opinion, this is like the "death panel controversy", some folks trying to find a way to cause panic because they don't like the Obama care legislation. If folks are against that legislation that's fine, but appears to me a huge overreaction to what is some extra money to agencies that already exist.
And frankly, it's not that much money, it comes out to less than 5 million per state. Actually well less, as it also covers the territories and tribal lands. There is no way any state is going to visit the home of every kid who's parents smoke, let alone the homeschooled, farm kids, military kids, on 5 million dollars.
Gee thanks, Dad.
Returns June 3rd.
this is just the addition of another layer of bureaucracy . . schools/teachers are already legally obligated to report suspicion of abuse, neglect, etc. to the authorities
Um, its a little more severe than that, Sam. No ones home should be searched simply because you own firearms, home school, live in a rural area, are a mother under 21 or decide to use tobacco.
Returns June 3rd.
had to check the calendar to make sure this wasn't Friday the 13th . . find myself agreeing with Jefferson and Kadmos at he same time . . none of those reasons are valid for an unwanted visit by the man and $224 million nationwide isn't enough money to accomplish shit
Well, coming up with more funding has never slowed these folks down. And wait until Obamacare kicks in fully, there will be nonsense done in its name that will appall all of us. Obamacare isn't about health care, that will be clear enough soon. This little tidbit we're discussing now, is not even the tip of the iceberg.
Returns June 3rd.
I can tell you that we were often unable to get a response from DCFS when we had a MRAI and needed emergency placement. WAY underfunded, WAY overloaded caseworkers. I don't think your interpretation of how this will be implemented is realistic. So if we assume the targeted "home inspections" will be based upon something other than asthma...then what? Political adversaries as we see with the IRS? Just fucking wonderful.
I can further tell you that without a warrant, they are not entering MY home. Period end of story. Our kids are grown and do not live here. DCFS exists to intervene and advocate on behalf of abused and neglected children and it can barely accomplish that. It does not exist to enforce socialized medicine.
That ok Richard Simmons? Meet with your approval?
Face your fear, accept your war.
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