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Thread: AK VS AR wich in 5.56?

  1. #1
    Senior Member Sergi762's Avatar

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    AK VS AR wich in 5.56?

    OK
    This isn't the standard AK vs AR question thread we all love to chew the fat over. This is a personal question but one I know other may have wondered themselves. Suffice to say neither the Saiga section nor elsewhere has helped thus far.
    The scenario is this: if you had to pick ONE of the above platforms for 5.56 which would you choose and why? I ask as I am seriously debating picking up ( or starting to hunt for) either a AR or an AK( in this particular case a Saiga .223 ).The thing is I need it to work no matter what and I haven't so much as shot an AR ( of any kind)in my life, hence the trepidation on buying one. I have shot many AKS and combloc weapons.I know them and I trust them not to fail when the shit hits.Not so much in the AR family. Sure I don't expect match grade accuracy with an AK but I never expected it. If I go for an AR I just don't know where to go, what to buy or whats good from whats junk. I can gather the cash for a better AR/AK if need be( with time) but as bad as this may sound I need it "idiot Proof". What do you, the seasoned gun nuts here have to say? Don't hold back and give me your honest opinions. should I stick with what I know or is the AR as good as the fans tout it to be? As always thanks for your thoughts.

  2. #2
    I used to be wholly opposed to getting an AK in 5.56 but this was the ban era when mags were usually converted 5.45 mags and of questionable reliability. These days you can get Bulgarian mags made specifically for 5.56 and I'm sure they work just fine.

    However unless you have spent a lot of time and money on serious training with the AK platform I see no reason to stick with it as you adopt a 5.56 rifle. Today a good AR-15 can be had for less money than a good AK (and I personally don't trust the reliability of the more poorly converted or assembled AKs), modern AR mags are plentiful, reliable, and very reasonably priced (and I recommend you buy a decent amount all at once just in case prices go crazy again). While I consider the accuracy of the weapon a nominal feature I think the ergonomics of the AR are far superior (trigger, mag changes, and safety manipulation being the biggest items). It's also far superior platform for mounting optics than the AK, and of course there are plenty of high quality accessories (and way too many low quality ones too) for the AR.

    Right now for folks looking at getting an AR I always start off recommending the Colt. CDNN has the lightweight 6720 for $899 right now, and DSG Arms has the more popular M4-like 6920 for $979. Both are no-frills but use top quality parts, will run like champs and will hold their value (I haven't checked recently but not long ago you could actually buy a colt and part it out for more money than you paid for the rifle, people desire and appreciate colt parts that much).

    If you want something a bit more kitted out I'd recommend the Rainier Arms RUC. Rainier is known more as a vendor than a builder but their RUC rifles are all business when it comes to what they put into them and the price they charge is very reasonable given what they offer (in other words, you probably can't build a rifle this good for less). It's also VERY light, which will come in handy if you're planning on using the rifle for hunting.

    Just food for thought.

    Links:
    http://www.cdnnsports.com/colt-6720-...l#.U3c0-GeKCHs
    http://dsgarms.com/co6920
    https://www.rainierarms.com/?page=sh...roduct_id=4278
    Last edited by Starvin; 05-17-2014 at 06:07 AM.

  3. #3
    Senior Member TEN-32's Avatar

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    I love the ARs. I love the AKs. Whats not to like about an AK in 5.56? I have a Robarms VEPR in 5.56. Its fantastic. I picked up a bunch of Bulgarian mags and its good to go. What is your price range?
    Face your fear, accept your war.

  4. #4
    Forum Administrator Schuetzenman's Avatar

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    I have both. I owned the AK before the AR. A .223 AK can be almost as accurate as most stock iron sight equipped AR rifles. In the last 6 years I have sold all my 7.62x39 chambered AK and SKS weapons and focused on the AR15 platform. To build an AK from scratch you need some serious tooling; rivet jigs, barrel presses and the skills to use them. To build an AR rifle from stripped receivers, (Upper and Lower) you will need some specialty tooling. However, the skills required are that of operating a screw driver and a Wrench. Meaning the AR is much simpler to build although it does have many more bits and pieces, many of which are very small and easy to lose if you drop them. Examples are springs and tiny plungers that are used to hold the push pins in that hold the upper to the lower or the safety selector. That said you won't be taking these out to field strip and clean the AR.

    The only AK I have left is a SAR-3 because it takes the same ammo as the AR rifles I've moved to. I was lucky with that one, it uses any Wieger or Bulgarian magazine with 100% flawless function. It is much more difficult to mount an optic on it vs. the flat topped AR platform rifles. If I shoot out the barrel, getting one to fit is will be difficult, expensive and require the hydraulic press to push out and then push in the barrel and barrel retainer pin. At the least a large hammer would be required to do this. If I shoot out an AR barrel, I can get those from 50 different places; Spikes, Daniel Defense, Bushmaster, DPMS, Delton, Rock River, etc.

    My main complaint about the AR is the direct Impingement design. It operates by syphoning off some of the gunpowder gas and shooting it down a stainless steel tube into a gas key on top of the bolt group. The gas pressurizes behind the bolt which acts like a piston in a car. The gas causes the bolt carrier to push away from the bolt and as it does this a cam pin that runs through the bolt rotates the bolt to move the lugs out of engagement with the barrel extension to unlock the bolt and allow it to travel backward into the buffer tube. So all that translates to carbon all over the bolt, bolt carrier and inside of the upper receiver. It also gets in your magazines and builds up over time requiring you to disassemble the magazines and clean them out as well as the weapon.

    The reason I finally got comfortable with the AR platform was the innovation of piston drive systems for them. Those keep the upper receiver and bolt group clean, cool and 99.8% carbon free. This alone jacks up the reliability of the weapon platform to make it rival the AK, but in the end not equal it. The AK is still the champ of being able to run with a handful of dirt in the receiver. Toss in dirt to the AR and start cleaning as you won't be firing it. The AR does have the Dust Cover door that should be kept closed unless firing the weapon to prevent that dirt from getting in. I'd be more worried if I lived in a desert, here in Georgia and the eastern half of the US unless you go to the beech there isn't a lot of sand around.

    You will hear about carrier tilt with piston converted AR rifles. This is due to the push force being transferred to the top of the bolt carrier vs. gas pushing right on the centerline when it runs by gas. There are work arounds on how to eliminate this. POF USA and Primary Weapon Systems (PWS) make anti tilt buffer tubes. The POF tube is bout $40 bucks, the PWS is 100 something. That said I have yet to get either one. I simply put lithium grease or Tetra Gun grease at the bottom front of the tube and on the bottom rear of the bolt carrier. I also break the edges on the head of the cam pin which are normally square and sharp. They don't need to be that way to work properly. These two mods have prevented any wear on my buffer tube, carrier and inside the upper receivers so far. If I was to get a special buffer tube I'd go with the POF USA tube simply because it is $60 bucks less than the PWS part.

    Magazines as mentioned are much more reliable now and certainly far easier to find than .223 AK mags. Chances of you finding the AK .223 mag are very minimal where as an M16 / AR mags are available from a hundreds of retailers and close to a dozen manufacturers. In order of best to yuck level quality; Magpul, Troy, Lancer for polymers. C Products, D&H and Brownell's for metal. Always get them with Magpul type anti tilt follwers. Avoid anything made by Promag, Tapco and Tangodown. Surfire makes 65 and 100 round mags but the reviews are very mixed; some report they work, others report they are shit and jam all the time. I have none of that brand and will not given the lack of reliability.

    On what brand of rifle to get; Colt, IMO over priced and riding on their former reputation built on being the first to supply the M16 to the US military. I have a Colt and it was no more reliable and far less accurate than other AR rifles built by other companies straight out of the box. I have Delton uppers on Rock River Lowers, Stag Lowers, Anderson Mfg. and DPMS. I find no magic to any one maker over another. Once there was a golden few but now there are many quality makers and parts suppliers. I personally trust; Bushmaster, Stag, DPMS, Delton, Daniel Defense, CMMG, Colt, Windom and others I can't think of right now to make a quality weapon. Most of the shit makers are out of business.
    Last edited by Schuetzenman; 05-17-2014 at 08:49 AM.

  5. #5
    Forum Administrator Schuetzenman's Avatar

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    One more thought; IF I was not already an AR owner and didn't like to roll my own, (build my own rifles) I would seriously look at the SIG 556 rifles. They are a hybrid of design features between the Ak and the AR15 / M16. If these two weapons platforms were living creatures and had sex, the baby would be the Swiss Sig 556 design. The ones made to use the M16 magazine would be the one to look at. I would avoid the STG90 lower type models that take the "Rock-In" style of (AK type) magazine.

    I have handled true STG90 rifles in Switzerland when on business trips. The owner of the Swiss gun shop I was visiting, (they had their own underground range) showed me how the rock in STG90 magazine could be stuck in the rifle backwards and then they are almost impossible to get out. The magazine is very straight so if you're in a panic you could not notice it was backwards.

    Rock-in designs are older than the M16's shove straight up the mag well to lock in design. Trying to speed reload I have messed up and not gotten an AK mag to seat correctly, I've yet to mess up a mag change on the AR platform. Clearly there is a significant improvement in handling properties of the AR vs. the AK. Accessories available and ease to put them on go to the AR. Accuracy goes to the AR over the AK. Only the ability to tolerate dirt in the action goes to the AK over the AR. Clearly for me, ( a 1 time AK-o-phile) the AR wins in so many ways the only choice to own anymore is the AR.

  6. #6
    I know I'm going to start sounding like a fanboy but I think it's funny people still say Colts are overpriced when they're priced in the same sub-$1,000 range as most of the mid-tier guns you listed as trusting. I think the "Colts are overpriced" midset is a throwback to an era when there was a significant price difference between folks like Bushmaster and Colt and colt had those damned oversized pins. However the lower end guns got more expensive and I would MUCH rather have the parts colt puts into their guns than the ones found in most of the hobby brands. Though I will admit the lower end is getting better about putting quality parts into their guns. Standouts in my head are Spikes and Palmetto State Armory (though be careful with them because they have the good stuff and the not so good stuff).

    Again, for the money, Colt is hard to beat, any parts you want to replace with aftermarket will easily resell for a fair price. Off the top of my head if you want better go with that RUC I recommended or BCM, Daniel Defense, Noveske (though I think they've become too proud of their products and I'm not a fan of their billet lower). When folks who teach tactical classes are asked what rifles they like based off of what guns they've seen perform and what guns they've seen fail Colt, BCM, DD and Noveske almost always get the nod.

    As for the accuracy of Colt vs others. I'd say that's likely because of the twist. The 1:7 twist in most colts is not ideal for the common 55gr ammo most folks shoot so a 1:9 gun more commonly found in the commercial grade guns have a greater chance of outshining in the accuracy department with the lighter bullets. The 1:7 shines with the heavier 75 and 77gr OTMs.

  7. #7
    If you want something a bit more exotic you could get the ARAK-21 upper for an AR lower. It's got an AK like gas system, quick change barrels and all the ergos of the AR. One of my buddies has one. He seems to like it ok but I don't think he's really wrung it out yet.

    http://www.faxonfirearms.com/

  8. #8
    Forum Administrator Schuetzenman's Avatar

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    Quote Originally Posted by Starvin View Post
    If you want something a bit more exotic you could get the ARAK-21 upper for an AR lower. It's got an AK like gas system, quick change barrels and all the ergos of the AR. One of my buddies has one. He seems to like it ok but I don't think he's really wrung it out yet.

    http://www.faxonfirearms.com/
    Faxon is One I hadn't heard of or seen yet. On the price of Colts, depends what models you see I guess. Rather plain mundane looking Colt Carbines still seem to have a higher asking price ($200) than comparable Bushmaster and others. The local Wallyworld has black guns in the case. Every time I see one an AR with a price north of $1100 it seems to be a Colt with no rails. So opinions and what one sees in the market can vary widely. Some of the most overpriced seem to be; Daniel Defense, Noveske and LWRC in my opinion. Then again their parts are as good as it gets, the thing is do they have to be that good to provide a reliable functioning weapon? IMO, no they don't.

    I recently finished building a light weight middy gas system AR. It has a DPMS chrome lined 1 in 9 lt. profile 16" barrel. M4 upper of (can't remember make)? Lower is a Stag Arms with a T6 stock, nothing special. I put in an Osprey 418 gas piston conversion system and topped it off with an Eotech 512. Runs 100% with Magpul, Troy and C-Products magazines. Works with 55 gr. M193, M855 and my heavier Sierra MK handloads. Never had it fail to feed, eject or fire. Selling off parts, why? Who sells off parts once they get them? Folks use to snear at DPMS, yet a lot of the bigger name rifle makers were building with the internals that DPMS was making and selling to them. Like I said earlier, these weapons aren't magic. There are many paths to reliable AR rifles now, not like in the early 1990's when there were but a few.

    Lastly, my experience and statement about Colt accuracy revolve around the preban HBAR Colt, my first that I purchased. My Mini-14 could do better than that rifle out of the box. I still have it, but I moded the crap out of it. 95% of the inaccuracy came from the sloppy-assed loose fit of the upper to the lower. About 1 mm of clearance slop between them. I bedded those with black Accraglass Gel filled with aluminum powder that I mixed up. That took it from a cool 5" grouping weapon to sub 2" with the A2 stock Irons. Next I put on a CMP compliant under the handguard Free Float tube system. That tightened it down to 1.25" MOA class results. Finally to push it to sub 1 MOA I had to send it to 300 Below to get the barrel Cryo treated. With 69 gr. Sierra MK rounds it hovers in the 3/4" range of accuracy. By contrast I used DPMS stripped receivers, parts kit and tube ff handguards and a Krieger barrel to build a Match Rifle for High Power competition. Dropped in a n Arnold Jewell 2-stage trigger and with the same ammo that shoots 3/4" in the Colt was able to shoot 3/8ths inch groups all day long. The only parts originally not DPMS on the rifle was the Krieger barrel and Jewell trigger. I have photos of it in my Gunsnet picture gallery. http://www.gunsnet.net/photopost/sho...-hider&cat=500 Today 15 years later after initial build it has the Magpul PRS and Moe grip and an AAC Blackout on it to take my M4-1000 suppressor. http://www.gunsnet.net/photopost/sho...tch-ar&cat=500 Still shooting sub 1/2 MOA.
    Last edited by Schuetzenman; 05-17-2014 at 10:01 AM.

  9. #9
    was_peacemaker
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    I will second what Schuetzenman has said about building your own. Placing a barrel in an AR is light years easier than an AK. The difference being a armors tool and a torque wrench vs. jigs, press, patience, more patience...LOL

  10. #10
    Team Gunsnet Silver 02/14 - Moderator recon's Avatar

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    Quote Originally Posted by Starvin View Post
    If you want something a bit more exotic you could get the ARAK-21 upper for an AR lower. It's got an AK like gas system, quick change barrels and all the ergos of the AR. One of my buddies has one. He seems to like it ok but I don't think he's really wrung it out yet.

    http://www.faxonfirearms.com/
    Hmmmmm looks interesting.
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    Team Gunsnet Silver 02/14 - Moderator recon's Avatar

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    If these come back in I'm looking at this one. Can do a better price else where.
    Buy It Cheap!
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    Original Member-July-1999!

  12. #12
    Senior Member Charliebravo's Avatar

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    It'll cost you, but the Definitive Arms. 223 AK conversion is awesome. It converts your. 223 AK to use AR magazines. It puts the push-button magazine release right where it should be and it gives the AK last round bolt hold open.

  13. #13
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    .308 in either caliber. ak
    While no one ever listens to me,
    I am constantly being told to be quiet.

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    be the heat..

  14. #14
    Senior Member Sergi762's Avatar

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    FAL's do .308 better
    Quote Originally Posted by l921428x View Post
    .308 in either caliber. ak

  15. #15
    Senior Member Sergi762's Avatar

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    Truth be told I am warming up (trying to) to the idea of an AR but I know squat about them first hand. I have heard that Ruger makes a piston gun ( SR556 I think) and cost aside I have never had issues with Ruger products. SO far they've all been built like tanks. Still ;if I had help or better luck I'd look for guns like the SAR-3( but Schuetz is all too right about the weiger mag hunting..) or the bulgarian offering( nothing says high end like 45 dollar magazines). The recent bullsh*t with KC being sanctioned has spurred me to look again. I don't understand why the Sigs still have those thin barrels but I dunno; My heart wanted a '74 but 7N6 got banned and now Russian anything is on hold as they aren't clearing any for 6 with Russian origins.

  16. #16
    Forum Administrator Schuetzenman's Avatar

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    The easiest way to build an AR is just buy a complete barreled upper, then go and buy a complete lower with buttstock attached. Place the upper on the lower and shove in the two push pins that holds them together. Ta-da! You now have an AR15 rifle and you spent zero on the tools.

    My other advice is to recommend a Mid-length gas system barrel if you're going 16" carbine. This gives you two advantages, lower pressure to extract the case from the chamber and the weapon can take a stock bayonet for the M16. Very useful in the zombie apocalypse if your magazine runs dry. If you want a gas piston rifle I would currently recommend the Osprey. http://www.gunsnet.net/showthread.ph...178#post380178 Link to a thread I started on converting a Middy to Osprey. It works very well.

    One other thing, I did change from the stock carbine buffer to an extra heavy carbine buffer to slow down the cycling speed of the bolt. Once converted to Osprey it really kicked and an AR shouldn't kick. So adding the heaviest buffer that is made really slowed it down and tamed it. It also keeps the brass nearby and as I reload, I appreciate that aspect. Probably just a standard Heavy Buffer would do the trick and allow for a little bit faster fire rate. With the extra heavy buffer I do believe I could pull the trigger faster than the weapon can cycle.

  17. #17
    Team Guns Network Silver 04/2015 mrkalashnikov's Avatar

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    Despite my abiding love for the Kalashnikov platform if I was choosing between the AK & AR today, I'd go w/ the AR.

    AK rifles were dirt cheap 10 yrs ago & have steadily risen in price since then. AR rifles on the other hand have been actually coming down in price. I've run an Armalite M15A2 for the last 10 yrs & it's performed flawlessly. Just my 2 cents.

  18. #18
    **Team GunsNet SILVER 12/2014** skorpion's Avatar

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    Quote Originally Posted by mrkalashnikov View Post
    Despite my abiding love for the Kalashnikov platform if I was choosing between the AK & AR today, I'd go w/ the AR.

    AK rifles were dirt cheap 10 yrs ago & have steadily risen in price since then. AR rifles on the other hand have been actually coming down in price. I've run an Armalite M15A2 for the last 10 yrs & it's performed flawlessly. Just my 2 cents.
    +1
    10 years ago I would have recommended an AK due to cost differences. Now-a-days, ARs are dirt-cheap and most are well-built. Granted, I keep my firearms pretty clean, but I've never had a problem with any of my ARs. ARs are more ergonomic, the iron sights are superior to those of the AK, and ARs have more accessories available than a Barbie doll.
    The pen is mightier than the sword, but only when you're shoving it through your enemy's throat.
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  19. #19
    Forum Administrator Schuetzenman's Avatar

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    Quote Originally Posted by skorpion View Post
    +1
    10 years ago I would have recommended an AK due to cost differences. Now-a-days, ARs are dirt-cheap and most are well-built. Granted, I keep my firearms pretty clean, but I've never had a problem with any of my ARs. ARs are more ergonomic, the iron sights are superior to those of the AK, and ARs have more accessories available than a Barbie doll.
    Yep all that and more. Really they are approaching being as ubiquitous as a Mauser pattern bolt action rifle. Bill Klinton made it so by attempting to band them.

  20. #20
    Senior Member ready's Avatar

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    I second Scheutz's comments about brand names. I've had a few, dpms, bcm, spikes, armalite, lmt, rra. They've all worked. The dpms has seen more rounds and more abuse than all the rest put to together and is still surviving as a patrol rifle to this day. Only thing I ever did to it was stake the factory endplate.

    I would bet 99% of people bad mouthing dpms have 0 experience with one and are just parotting bullshit. Or trying to justify the 2500 dollar safe queen the bought.

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