It doesn't matter what the dealer might have done. He was directed to act in a certain way. His hand was forced. Responsibility lies with those that allowed the sale.Originally Posted by Kadmos
It doesn't matter what the dealer might have done. He was directed to act in a certain way. His hand was forced. Responsibility lies with those that allowed the sale.
CHOOT UM!
I can see how that further absolves the dealer, but not how it puts the blame on the government.
Our side has always put the blame on the guy who pulled the trigger.
We might put part of the blame on the government if a person should have been on the "no buy" list for a good and lawful reason, but wasn't. Such as a violent past offender who had lost their gun rights. But not for the guy who everyone thought was ok but maybe bit "off", who legally bought a gun and then opened fire in a mall.
At the most, the government had the power to put him on the 3 day hold.
Sure the dealer *might* have denied the sale, but if he had called NICS and they gave him the "all clear", he would have been essentially justified in making the sale.
Let's face it, that's what that system is partly there for, so dealers can essentially say "well, the government Ok'd it, and it's not like I'm the guy who pulled the trigger".
This just seems like a total 180 from what most on here normally believe, or state that they believe. That the government shouldn't unnecessarily stop a sale, that it should be ok to do a face to face private sale on the secondary market, and that the guy who pulled the trigger is the person to blame.
Don't get me wrong, I do think the government fucked up...it's a bit like busting the drug dealer and then leaving the giant pile of drugs at the scene for anyone to take...maybe not quite that extreme as obviously kids could find it, but sort of that same sense of not cleaning up the mess. But "blood on their hands" seems rather extreme considering our normal view of the NICS and secondary sales.
Where blood on the hands plays in is that the gov had reason to suspect the guns they released AND tracked were headed out to do bad things, yet they let them go when they had the ability to do something about it. Further, they overrode the FFL who has a vested interest in filtering out illegal sales. With that override they took on the responsibility and liability the FFL usually carries. We assume the FFL operates with this in mind and that is why they are not normally liable for illegal secondary sales. The government lost the good faith of the people in its actions in this matter and in doing so opened itself up to the same scrutiny and liability a negligent gun dealer would face.
CHOOT UM!
I do understand what you are saying. However, how many guns get sold by dealers that still end up in the wrong hands? Obviously a good deal.
And doesn't the government in that same sense override the liability of the dealer every time it says yes with the NICS?
I can't think of a single time where I heard about the NICS check coming back as OK, but the dealer used his "Spidey sense" and refused to make the sale
From the studies I have seen, with the exception of a very small percentage of firearms, felons obtain firearms from other felons who have stolen or otherwise obtained their firearms illegally if they do not steal them themselves. Anytime anti-Second Amendment types are actually pushed to answer how using FFLs for all sales will stop gun crime they are forced to admit that it will have only a slight, and it is a very slight, affect on gun crime.
I also remember that, in at least one case, the FFL was told by the ATF to go ahead with a sale of multiple rifles that he knew was illegal as part of Fast and Furious.
"Nothing ever gets so bad that government "help" can't make it worse." Pat Garrett, March 22, 2014
"HATE IS GOOD, WHEN ITS DIRECTED AT EVIL." PROBASCO, April 20, 2012
I tried to push the envelope, but found that it was stationery.
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The BATFEces scumbags purposely seeded Mexico with easily traceable US sourced guns to create a pretext for draconian gun control measures. The Marxist pig and his minions pulled a number out of their ass and they needed to meet it. They had no intention of doing anything other than creating contrived statistics to support their propaganda.
Usually sufferers of paraphilic infantilism are proud of their condition. Kinda like being a liberal. Your mental flaws are there for the entire world to see, and you're damned proud of it. - tank_monkey
See the comment above regarding stolen guns.
No. NICS is PART of the approval process. The FFL has their part to do as well. If there were no discretion involved on their part guns could be sold from vending machines- just swipe your government Recognized ID for approval....clearly THAT will not happen ....because there must be human discretion involved in such a sale.And doesn't the government in that same sense override the liability of the dealer every time it says yes with the NICS?
Hearsay. Inadmissible.I can't think of a single time where I heard about the NICS check coming back as OK, but the dealer used his "Spidey sense" and refused to make the sale
Last edited by Goodman; 10-17-2014 at 10:11 PM.
CHOOT UM!
It's not that hard, really. When the government FORCES the dealer to break the law, it IS the government's fault.
See? It's not that hard...
"Valar morghulis; valar dohaeris."
Commucrats are most efficient at converting sins and crimes to accidents or misunderstandings.-Oswald Bastable
Making good people helpless won't make bad people harmless.
Freedom isn't free.
"Attitude is the paintbrush that colors our world." TV Series, Haven.
My Spirit Animal has rabies.
I'd rather be an American than a Democrat.
"If you can make a man afraid, you can control him" Netflix Series, The Irregulars
Yes, and that argument might hold up a bit better if the topic wasn't literally about guns that were in fact sold, then resold.
The issue you guys are talking about is in fact the government letting someone buy guns through a dealer. And then those guns being resold by a criminal to criminals.
Sure it's a part of it. But my guess is that part usually takes place before the check is even run. Call it hearsay if you like, but I've bought guns many times, hung out in gunshops and shows quite a bit, and never have I seen or heard of any time where the NICS check went through then the dealer said "no".
Sorry, but I have a hard time believing the dealers were truly forced. These are people who want to sell guns, it's how they put food on their tables. If the government allows them to make the sale, odds are high they are going to try hard to make the sale. They are only going to refuse to make the sale if they think it's going to come back and bite them on the ass.
I bet even after we get the documents proving the regime deliberately wanted these weapons to kill lots of people to start the AW ban screaming, Kadmos would still argue for his employer. The operation was never designed to track the weapons by ANY means, we have no arrest authority in Mexico, the Mexican authorities weren't even notified. Anyone except the true believers like Kadmos the Commie phoney democrat troll boy can recognize from a few facts including the massive nail pulling to get the facts from Holder point to a deliberate attempt to get people killed for political and 2nd amendment infringement. I bet when all those hard drives crash and the court directed release of the documents can't be fulfilled, the faithful Commie Kadmos will still be defending his regime just like he did with the IRS. Sorry POS polluting this site with your paid trolling.
^ bump for the crony polluting this forum.
I see...
You have a problem believing someone beholden to the gov't. for their continued livelihood (ATF/FFL), would never potentially be influenced (ATF/FFL), possibly even cajoled (ATF/FFL0, nay, impressed (ATF/FFL), into doing something which might allow them to stay in business...
ATF here being the regulating authority...
Really though, the pertinent portion of your post resides in, "I have a hard time believing".
You have a hard time believing...
In which reality does that resemble anything remotely close to fact, or anything even in a parallel universe to fact?
At this point you go into your "best supposition" diatribe...don't bother...
Last edited by Oswald Bastable; 10-19-2014 at 06:01 AM.
If we refuse to rule ourselves with reason, then we shall be ruled by our passions.
He, Who Will Not Reason, Is a Bigot; He, Who Cannot, Is a Fool; and He, Who Dares Not, Is a Slave. -Sir William Drummond
There are some things I will not abide within my sight!
Trying to help a liberal "see the truth" =
"Valar morghulis; valar dohaeris."
Commucrats are most efficient at converting sins and crimes to accidents or misunderstandings.-Oswald Bastable
Making good people helpless won't make bad people harmless.
Freedom isn't free.
"Attitude is the paintbrush that colors our world." TV Series, Haven.
My Spirit Animal has rabies.
I'd rather be an American than a Democrat.
"If you can make a man afraid, you can control him" Netflix Series, The Irregulars
It DOESN'T MATTER what the dealer did, thought, hoped or wanted. He was made to act in a certain way by ATF.
ATF becomes responsible for the consequences of those actions if they vary from the dealer's normal behavior. Since the dealer was not being investigated, rather it was the buyer being investigated, we can reasonably assume the dealer's normal action would be to behave in a law-abiding manner.
Again, the dealer's behavior is not in question.
The buyer was under scrutiny for likely illegal distribution of firearms to criminal elements.
ATF took action to ensure that the buyer was able to purchase firearms.
ATF THEN had a moral and almost certainly a legal duty to investigate any further distribution of said firearms.
ATF did not act in a manner that limited the criminal usage of said firearms.
ATF did not act in a manner that ATTEMPTED to limit criminal usage of said firearms (crime).
Said firearms were used in criminal killings of people (crime)
ATF, whether aware of said killings or not, acted to hide its actions in coercing the dealer to allow sales of the firearms from Congress (crime).
Kadmos, it is not like a kilo of blow. Drugs can often be used with nominal effects on the user if let out for sale. These weapons were clearly expected to be transferred to end users for criminal usage.
If you cannot see why ATF would not be criminally liable in this case I have lost any respect for your ability to reason at all.
And that's all I have to say about that.
CHOOT UM!
Kad, this is really worse than what has been claimed by others here...
First, the Obama administration has tried to tie this the operation to operation "wide receiver" that went on during the Bush administration. Wide receiver was a joint effort between Mexico and the BATFE. They were targeting suspected firearms smugglers. Until the last operation suspects involved were arrested on this side of the boarder before transferring firearms to Mexico and the cartels. They were installing RF chips into the firearms to track them. Corrupt LEOs in Mexico told the last group of smugglers how they were being tracked and they removed the RF chips and got away with about 50 firearms. At this point wide receiver was shut down; about two years before Obama took office.
Barack Obama, Hillary Clinton, Janet Napolitano, Eric Holder, Harry Reid and others all gave speeches soon after Obama took office using the talking point that 90% of firearms used by the Drug Cartels came from the USA. They were attempting to justify a new assault weapons ban and other 2nd amendment restrictions. This was a blatant lie. The lie was based on tracking requests by the Mexican Government. What wasn't told was that only about 2% of the firearms the Mexican Government confiscated were in the requests because Mexico knew the rest came from other sources. About 88% of the requests were firearms made and sold in the USA. The rest of those had been legally transferred to Mexico and third countries prior to being diverted to the Cartels. The largest majority of the 88% were firearms reported stolen in the USA.
Of all media, it was the reporter gal at the LA Times that called the Obama administration on the lie. This got embarrassing to the administration and stopped their move for more gun control. So, the Administration set out to "prove" they were right. After all, the end justifies the means, right?
It was at this point that operation Fast and Furious was put into motion.
There is Congressional testimony that the operation was directed by the District US Attorney's office (you know, the guys that report directly to Eric Holder). The BATFE, the DEA and the FBI were involved. The DEA and FBI were recruiting "informants" with smuggling experience and Cartel connections. They were supplying buy money to the "informants". The BATFE would strongarm dealers into selling guns to these known felons that could not pass the background check. FFL dealers have testified that the coercion included the threat to revoke their license.
The only attempts to "track" the firearms was to make sure the Boarder Patrol and local LEO did not stop the weapons from making it into Mexico. The Mexican government was at no point informed of the operation that put firearms into the hands of the Cartels and others. The Mexican Government has filed official protests to this effect and the Mexican President has stated this in speeches. There were no RF chips or other means of tracking involved. The only "tracking" data retained was the serial numbers so when involved in a crime the weapons could be tracked to the USA.
At minimum these people are guilty of:
Facilitating straw purchases
Facilitating firearms purchases by felons
Facilitating smuggling firearms into a foreign country
Conspiring to do all the above
Lying to Congress
Destruction of evidence
And the case could be made that they are accessory before the fact to murder
Eric Holder, you know the guy that was in charge of the "investigations" (read that cover up) of Waco and Ruby Ridge. Yea, where the Attorney General's Office "lost" the doors to the church at Waco. The doors that all the bullet holes were from the outside meaning an unprovoked attack by the ATF. That guy has:
Refused to hold a serious investigation, even after directed by Congress
Refused to appoint a special prosecutor, even after directed by Congress
Been found in contempt of Congress for refusing to turn over evidence and lying to Congress
The AGO has not interviewed most/all of the FFLs involved. The only Federal LEO contact most of them had was the BATFE threatening to revoke their license if they cooperated with Congress.
But wait, there is more!
There has been affidavits and testimony from FFLs that there were similar operations going on, not in Phoenix where Fast and Furious was based, but north Indiana, Houston, Los Angles, Dallas and Miami. The Miami US District Attorney was found feeding smashed hard drives and shredded documents into a trash can fire behind her office when they tried to serve a Congressional subpena.
Fast and Furious put 2,500 firearms into Mexico. If the other operations were as successful, that would total to 15,000 firearms.
If six US District Attorneys Offices were involved, Eric Holder had to be directing this. Likely with orders from the White House. This is just the type of dirty dealing that Valerie Jarrett is known for in Chicago.
Last edited by El Laton Caliente; 10-19-2014 at 11:27 AM.
We found out what "dealing" with progressive lefties is all about. Our side gives up something, they give up nothing and the progressives come back in a month or a year and want us to give up more... rinse and repeat...
can someone see to it, that a copy of this story makes it to the whitehouse, so obongo can find out about it, like everyone else?
But kad said........
"And how we burned in the camps later thinking, what would things have been like, if every security operative, when he went out at night to make an arrest, had been uncertain, whether he would return alive and had to say good-bye to his family?"
I fully understand that there were 2 agendas here, one, try to catch straw buyers who were helping arm criminals, and two, to push a gun control agenda.
I hate that the government tried to use this to push gun control. On that side nothing more need be said.
But on the first side, catching straw buyers. Well, frankly, that part did in fact work. Americans were "legally" buying guns and selling them off to the cartels.
Yes, the government totally mismanaged how that all went down, the guns did get into the wrong hands, weren't properly tracked, and of course the government had the opportunities to stop those sales before they happened.
It shouldn't have gone down like that, no doubt about it.
However, the pro 2A community has always stated that the misuse of guns is on the end user, the "people who kill people". We say that if the guns didn't get into the wrong hands via straw buyers then they would get them some other way.... theft, etc. We state that "straw purchases" aren't a big issue.
In this we basically absolve the dealers, essentially saying "how could they have known"...the same thing we say when a person legally buys a gun and then kills their spouse.
And I believe in this idea. It's the person pulling the trigger who is to blame, not the dealer, not the government.
But here we have an situation where the government could have done more, or just not done it, which ever way you want to figure it, and yes they should be held accountable for it.
However "blood on their hands"? Sorry but no. It's a 180 on half the stuff we've previously been arguing. Those criminals were going to get guns somehow, that's what we've always argued. A lot on here are against the NICS altogether, without which this still would have happened, but completely unmonitored.
The government gave this straw buyer enough rope to hang himself, they didn't send him in to buy, they didn't hook him up with criminals to sell to....he did that on his own. And now he's paying the price.
If your going to hold the government responsible for murder, then people are going to ask why they aren't held accountable for every murder that happens after an "ok" from the NICS system. And then they might say "why not just say no to all NICS checks and be done with it?"
You would also have to put a burden back on the dealers. If you argue that the dealer would have decided not to sell on his own, then for every time he does decide to sell then it puts the responsibility back on him.
To me it looks like another case of Obama derangement syndrome that you guys want to take it to the worst extreme of blame "blood on his hands" even though that goes against so much that we've been arguing for so long.
"Valar morghulis; valar dohaeris."
Commucrats are most efficient at converting sins and crimes to accidents or misunderstandings.-Oswald Bastable
Making good people helpless won't make bad people harmless.
Freedom isn't free.
"Attitude is the paintbrush that colors our world." TV Series, Haven.
My Spirit Animal has rabies.
I'd rather be an American than a Democrat.
"If you can make a man afraid, you can control him" Netflix Series, The Irregulars
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