PTR-91 A3R vs Serbian M77 (de-banned)

[FunkyPertwee]

So this is sort of an uncommon "versus" discussion. I'm looking at two "budget" .308 battle rifles. One is the PTR-91 A3R (HK-91 clone with wide handguards and scope rail), and the other is the Yugo/Serbian PAP M77PS, which will be de-banned in order to make it a copy of the standard M77 "assault rifle". The PTR is on sale now for $1000, while the M77 will cost me $550 to get it home, it will be up to nearly $1000 once I buy the US made parts, furniture, and the RS products scope rail. I'm including the cost of the RS products scope rail on the M77 because the PTR comes with its scope rail installed from the factory.

Accepting the fact that both rifles cost the same after de-banning the M77 and adding the scope rail, the pros and cons of the rifles can be weighed out. The PTR uses super cheap mags, while the M77 will have to have more-expensive M-14/M-1a mags modified for use in the Serbian rifle. The PTR is probably more accurate, although I have seen some impressive results from scoped M77 rifles, and the M77 can utilize the Tapco double-hook G2, which for me is an awesome trigger. The PTR will add diversity to my gun collection, seeing as how I have no German firearms at all, and the PTR is made in South Carolina, which is a fact that I take pride in for obvious reasons. Also, I grew up with a hard-on for the HK-91, mostly due to John Matrix's (Arnold Schwarzenegger) use of the HK-91 as a home-defense weapon in Commando. Alternatively, the M77 is much more familiar to me as I have had AK rifles for years, and it would be nearly identical to my Serbian O-pap, except with a bigger magazine and a longer barrel. Also I may have to leave the slant-cut the way it is, unless I decide to pony up for a weld-job by a gunsmith (there is a local AK smith).

I may not get either one of these any time soon, but I am tempted to snag a bare-bones M77 while they're available and just squirrel it away for when I have money to outfit it the way I want.

Here are the pics:

PTR-A3R:





Serbian PAP-M77PS in its Obama-approved configuration:



How the M77 would end up (plus the scope mount):



With the slant cut:


(sorry I had to snag this from another forum: http://www.akfiles.com/forums/showth...65#post2349365)

My own O-pap. Notice the similarities to the above de-banned M77:




The O-pap is going to receive optics at some point, so would the M77. I would purposely keep these guns in similar configurations in order to make them somewhat of a matched set, but with different optics.



Alternatively, I do need armor and fancy bullets more than a new gun, but the collector in me usually wins out over the "survivalist".

[Helen Keller]

I'd go with the PTR. due to the fact mags/accessories are abundant.

[El Laton Caliente]

PTR, but then I have 200 plus mags in the garage...

[Schuetzenman]

I'd go for the PTR91 myself. I've owned an HK G3 clone rifle and a CETME both by Century. Both were 2 to 3 MOA with surplus Portuguese ball ammo. I got rid of them simply because I was trying to consolidate the collection on the FAL rifle and the M1A in the 7.62 NATO chambering. I think I still have about a 50 cal. ammo can full of HK91 mags somewhere in the garage.

The HK delayed roller system is different, but seemed to be reliable. Just don't feed it weak ammo or they short stroke. Also you have to watch out for tar based bullet sealant as it will clog the flutes in the chamber. If the flutes get clogged they turn into a single shot rifle. Hard on brass, yeah due to the flutes in the chamber but should be reloadable. I just never put any reloadable brass ammo through the ones I owned. If you scope it use as low a ring as you can get. You may still find you need a cheek rest added to the buttstock to get you a good cheek weld and support of your head on the stock if using a scope.

[kimberkid]

I like the O PAPs and the PTR's but if you don't already have one ... in the same price range, more modern and better accuracy I'd look at the DPMS 308 ...

just sayin ... but if those were my only choices I'd go with the PTR

[Schuetzenman]

I like the O PAPs and the PTR's but if you don't already have one ... in the same price range, more modern and better accuracy I'd look at the DPMS 308 ...

just sayin ... but if those were my only choices I'd go with the PTR

Actually that isn't a bad suggestion, the DPMS .308 rifle. Could or should be even more accurate than either of the named choices. Magazines are reasonable. http://www.aimsurplus.com/product.as....308+magazines prices ranging from $18 to $21.50 each at Aimsurplus. Then there's http://www.brownells.com/magazines/r...?avs|Make_3=AR xzzx308 Brownell's that will have a DPMS like metal magazine for about $20 each.

http://www.44mag.com/product/asc_308...ar15_magazines Lastly 44mag.com has this ASC magazine for $15.50 each.

[FunkyPertwee]

I like the O PAPs and the PTR's but if you don't already have one ... in the same price range, more modern and better accuracy I'd look at the DPMS 308 ...

just sayin ... but if those were my only choices I'd go with the PTR

Actually that isn't a bad suggestion, the DPMS .308 rifle. Could or should be even more accurate than either of the named choices. Magazines are reasonable. http://www.aimsurplus.com/product.as....308+magazines prices ranging from $18 to $21.50 each at Aimsurplus. Then there's http://www.brownells.com/magazines/r...?avs|Make_3=AR xzzx308 Brownell's that will have a DPMS like metal magazine for about $20 each.

http://www.44mag.com/product/asc_308...ar15_magazines Lastly 44mag.com has this ASC magazine for $15.50 each.

I'd get a Smith M&P-10 if I wanted a .308 AR. But the downside to those is that their around $1350, and its an AR. I like AR's as tools, but they don't flip my switch like AKs and the HKs.

I'm surprised the M77 isn't getting any love. The mags are the only downside, and they can be made from M-1a mags. Again, I hate to link elsewhere, but here is the mag conversion tutorial: http://www.theakforum.net/forums/30-...s-back-up.html

I appreciate the comments guys. Please continue to chime in as my mind is certainly not made up.

[ubersoldate]

PTR hands down...

[Helen Keller]

M77 in 30-06 using BAR mags...




if you had a welder/dremel you could have a madsen and beat both of these guns.

[FunkyPertwee]

M77 in 30-06 using BAR mags...

Might be easier to start with an M76 in 8mm.

if you had a welder/dremel you could have a madsen and beat both of these guns.

I have a dremel but have never welded anything more than a quick bead to n****r rig shit back together.

[Helen Keller]

Might be easier to start with an M76 in 8mm.

.309 stuff is much easier to cast/brass.

[deth502]

PTR

[deth502]

make sure you get the one with the built in wire cutters and bottle opener. im sure there are rail mounted ones you can find from an ar to retrofit.

[deth502]

actually, the g3 does have a bad ass built in wire cutter.

[rshaneck2002]

Saiga .308 in a 22 in barrel variety, convert it to 922r and wallah? Done one myself a few yrs back and am quite happy with said rifle. Optics go on easy etc, etc. and as accurate or better than the two mentioned, or get the 16 in barrel version. Simple really and since I bought mine 5 yrs ago I am sure the price has went up. Seems like I paid around $500 at the time. The DPMS is a fine rifle for the cash also. Bought a Saiga in .223 10yrs ago at Dunhams for $190 plus tax, should have bought 5 at the time as they have went up big time in both .223 and 7.62x39. Nobody or very few had heard of them 10 yrs ago, dirt cheap.

[FunkyPertwee]

.... I like AR's as tools, but they don't flip my switch like AKs and the HKs....

I'd actually like to retract that statement. I love ARs, I'm just not looking at any AR-10 rifles at the moment. Honestly the PTR is a bit of a budget-stretch on its own.

Also, I'd probably stick with a 5.56 SPR build before moving on to an AR-10.

[kimberkid]

If that's the case, you might take a look at the Century C-93 ...

Years back I enjoyed a couple HK-93's but was spoiled by the accuracy of the AR and the value of the 93's kept going up so I sold them to fund something else ... Then just a few years ago I picked up a Vector 93 which has a 1-7 barrel in it and is more accurate and nearly as nice as the HK. A year or so ago I picked up a C-93 Pistol for use with my HK sear ... although the finish is poor, the fit is decent so pI SBR'd it and it runs flawlessly with either the the semi or sear pack; it also has a 1-7 barrel and good accuracy with 55 thru 77 grain ammo ... I think I gave 700 for it and if memory serves correctly the carbine is about the same

[FunkyPertwee]

If that's the case, you might take a look at the Century C-93 ...

Years back I enjoyed a couple HK-93's but was spoiled by the accuracy of the AR and the value of the 93's kept going up so I sold them to fund something else ... Then just a few years ago I picked up a Vector 93 which has a 1-7 barrel in it and is more accurate and nearly as nice as the HK. A year or so ago I picked up a C-93 Pistol for use with my HK sear ... although the finish is poor, the fit is decent so pI SBR'd it and it runs flawlessly with either the the semi or sear pack; it also has a 1-7 barrel and good accuracy with 55 thru 77 grain ammo ... I think I gave 700 for it and if memory serves correctly the carbine is about the same

I'll probably stick with a PTR-91 for an HK clone, and AR rifles for 5.56.

[FunkyPertwee]

Saiga .308 in a 22 in barrel variety, convert it to 922r and wallah? Done one myself a few yrs back and am quite happy with said rifle. Optics go on easy etc, etc. and as accurate or better than the two mentioned, or get the 16 in barrel version. Simple really and since I bought mine 5 yrs ago I am sure the price has went up. Seems like I paid around $500 at the time. The DPMS is a fine rifle for the cash also. Bought a Saiga in .223 10yrs ago at Dunhams for $190 plus tax, should have bought 5 at the time as they have went up big time in both .223 and 7.62x39. Nobody or very few had heard of them 10 yrs ago, dirt cheap.

I'm pretty sure the only mags available for the Saiga .308 are unreinforced polymer magazines and heavy+expensive csspecs mags.

[kimberkid]

I'll probably stick with a PTR-91 for an HK clone, and AR rifles for 5.56.

Seems reasonable to me ...

Just throwing it out there as another 308 option, also more accurate than AK & HK styled weapons; the FAL ... there are clones in that same price range, some of which have already been made 922r compliant. They have an adjustable gas system that can make them more pleasant to shoot (as someone with brittle bones I find that a huge plus). However, I've never been a fan of the FAL as I don't care for the way it fits me, but I think I'm in the minority on that as they are very popular ... the FAL didn't the nick name as "the right arm of the free world" for nothing!