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Thread: Second lawsuit filed against the '86 ban today!

  1. #1
    Senior Member Partisan1983's Avatar

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    Exclamation Second lawsuit filed against the '86 ban today!

    http://www.examiner.com/article/seco...w-machine-guns

    A complaint for declarative and injunctive relief was filed Friday in the United States District Court for the Eastern District of Pennsylvania. Plaintiff Ryan S. Watson, acting individually and as trustee of the Watson Family Gun Trust, is suing Attorney General Eric H. Holder, Jr. and Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives Director B. Todd Jones in their official capacities for administering, executing and enforcing “statutory and regulatory provisions [that] generally act as an unlawful de facto ban on the transfer or possession of a machine gun manufactured after May 19, 1986.”

    Attorney David R. Scott is joined in the lawsuit by Stephen D. Stamboulieh, the Mississippi attorney who filed a similar action in Texas on October 30 in the case of Hollis v. Holder. This latest action differs from the first in that Watson is subject to an actual taking resulting from actions performed under authorization of the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives, for which approval was later revoked.

    Following an ATF Firearms Industry Programs Branch determination that “unincorporated trusts do not fall within the definition of ‘person,’” Watson, acting as an authorized official of the Watson Family Gun Trust, electronically submitted an ATF Form 1, “Application to Make and Register a Firearm” in May. In August, he received ATF approval along with its stamp evidencing payment of the tax affixed to the form, and based on that authorization, he manufactured a machine gun.

    Watson had also submitted an earlier Form 1 in April in paper form, and while that one was later returned disapproved, the signature box, date box and approval box had been “whited out” by ATF. In both cases ATF processed and retained the $200 “tax.”

    As for the approved machine gun, ATF reneged after the fact and advised Watson it had erroneously approved his application, despite, per Stamboulieh, the agency having no statutory authority to revoke an approval. ATF’s Philadelphia Field Division ordered Watson to surrender the manufactured machine gun, reminding him that “possession of this unregistered machine gun is a Federal felony.”

    The complaint asks for judgment along several grounds, including that existing statutes barring private ownership of machine guns exceed the authority of Congress and violate the Second Amendment. It additionally seeks declarations that such statutes cannot be applied individually or against trustees, that the defendants are enjoined from enforcement and that they have no authority to revoke tax stamps. Alternatively, the complaint asks that “unincorporated trusts are not prohibited from manufacturing or possessing machine guns.” It also seeks to recover costs of the suit and attorney fees, as well as “any other further relief as the Court deems just and appropriate.”
    Here's to pussy and gunpowder. One to live for, the other to die by.....Goddamn though, I do love the smell of 'em both !!!

  2. #2
    Guns Network Lifetime Member #2

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    It's about time. The NFA is blatantly unconstitutional and in particular the part of the FOPA that no longer allows us to pay the tax and buy or build machineguns since 1986, since the NFA is based on the taxing authority of the US.. Hopefully these cases don't have to go all the way to SCOTUS, but if they do, it needs to be now before Obama gets to put another communist on the bench with the help of Republican Senators.

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    Senior Member L1A1Rocker's Avatar

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    This is good strategy. In order to make it more likely that SCOTUS will take up the case, we need wins AND losses in different court districts. With conflicting rulings, SCOTUS is under pressure to make a unified ruling.
    US Constitution: Article 1 Section 8 Paragraph 4

    The Congress shall have Power To establish an uniform Rule of Naturalization

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    Forum Administrator Schuetzenman's Avatar

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    Of course I wish them and any others that can pile on to force this thing the best of luck.

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    Will believe it when I see it though. Nothing this good could happen......too pessimistic.
    "What sick, barbaric bastards.

    It's one thing to use terrorism to make a political statement, but the wanton mutilation and suffering of innocents? How does that forward your political goals? When done in the name of religion, how does that earn you brownie points with God?

    Fuck religious extremism. And especially fuck the "religion of peace." "

    So, lagcsocialist supports terrorism AS LONG AS ITS FOR POLITICAL ENDS....

  6. #6
    Senior Member Mark Ducati's Avatar

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    One can dream... can you imagine buying a full auto M16 for $1000 bucks + $200 tax stamp?

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    Team GunsNet Platinum 07/2011 nfa1934's Avatar

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mark Ducati View Post
    One can dream... can you imagine buying a full auto M16 for $1000 bucks + $200 tax stamp?
    Or turning one of the ARs in your safe into a registered receiver for $200 and the price of a drill bit.
    If I had a dollar for every time CAPITALISM was blamed for problems caused by the GOVERNMENT, I'd be a fat filmmaker with a baseball cap.

    12 string guitars only have 6 extra strings, but they're 85 TIMES as likely to be used in a song about wizards.

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    I got the model from Bandai.

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    Administrator imanaknut's Avatar

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mark Ducati View Post
    One can dream... can you imagine buying a full auto M16 for $1000 bucks + $200 tax stamp?
    How about a full fledged right to keep and bear arms with no infringement? Like regular retail for an M16 or FNH P90 or AUG or ____________ (fill in the blank) and only have to pay normal state sales tax? They can take that tax stamp, which made infringement legal and stick it with the obama-care tax which made their "penalty" legal.

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    Senior Member L1A1Rocker's Avatar

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mark Ducati View Post
    One can dream... can you imagine buying a full auto M16 for $1000 bucks + $200 tax stamp?
    I recall gun shows where there were AR-15s and M-16s side by side with only $100.00 difference on the price tag.
    US Constitution: Article 1 Section 8 Paragraph 4

    The Congress shall have Power To establish an uniform Rule of Naturalization

  10. #10
    Senior Member L1A1Rocker's Avatar

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    Quote Originally Posted by imanaknut View Post
    How about a full fledged right to keep and bear arms with no infringement? Like regular retail for an M16 or FNH P90 or AUG or ____________ (fill in the blank) and only have to pay normal state sales tax? They can take that tax stamp, which made infringement legal and stick it with the obama-care tax which made their "penalty" legal.
    You are absolutely right. Times are changing and we are taking our rights back one step at a time. I can see us getting there, but we may have to take a few steps before we get there.
    US Constitution: Article 1 Section 8 Paragraph 4

    The Congress shall have Power To establish an uniform Rule of Naturalization

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    Team Guns Network Silver 04/2015 mrkalashnikov's Avatar

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    Quote Originally Posted by L1A1Rocker View Post
    I recall gun shows where there were AR-15s and M-16s side by side with only $100.00 difference on the price tag.
    How long ago was that??

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    Senior Member L1A1Rocker's Avatar

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    Quote Originally Posted by mrkalashnikov View Post
    How long ago was that??
    I was in Jr High, so that was around the mid to early 80's.
    US Constitution: Article 1 Section 8 Paragraph 4

    The Congress shall have Power To establish an uniform Rule of Naturalization

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    Senior Member Partisan1983's Avatar

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    Quote Originally Posted by L1A1Rocker View Post
    I was in Jr High, so that was around the mid to early 80's.
    I was never given the chance (I was only 3 when the '86 ban happened)....well to be fair I worked my ass off and got to a position in life where I could have bought a transferable (to my liking) a few years ago, but unfortunately, 3 douchebags decided to corner the market on the one I really liked, and artificially drive the prices sky high...
    Here's to pussy and gunpowder. One to live for, the other to die by.....Goddamn though, I do love the smell of 'em both !!!

  14. #14
    Forum Administrator Schuetzenman's Avatar

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    Quote Originally Posted by L1A1Rocker View Post
    I recall gun shows where there were AR-15s and M-16s side by side with only $100.00 difference on the price tag.
    Oh for me it was even worse. My car insurance rep had a Class III license and was selling full autos out of his combo Insurance and FFL building. He showed me a Colt M16A1 and an S&W 76 9 mm with the folding wire stock when I came in to pay my car insurance bill one day. I was into muzzle loaders big time, built 1 or 2 custom rifles a year at the time. I sneered at them, thought they were junk. Stupid, stupid, stupid, (kicking self in ass). I think the Colt was $450 and the 76 was less than $300.

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    Team GunsNet Silver 07/2012 Hobe Sound AK's Avatar

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    Thumbs down

    Class 3 Dealers are to Blame also. I saw Pre-86 AK's going for less than 1,200.00 (Price of the Semi-Auto, and the Conversion) in that old Magazine Firepower. Last I saw a Listing for one, it was 36,000.00 That sure does help Stop Crime!

  16. #16
    Administrator imanaknut's Avatar

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    Quote Originally Posted by Schuetzenman View Post
    Oh for me it was even worse. My car insurance rep had a Class III license and was selling full autos out of his combo Insurance and FFL building. He showed me a Colt M16A1 and an S&W 76 9 mm with the folding wire stock when I came in to pay my car insurance bill one day. I was into muzzle loaders big time, built 1 or 2 custom rifles a year at the time. I sneered at them, thought they were junk. Stupid, stupid, stupid, (kicking self in ass). I think the Colt was $450 and the 76 was less than $300.
    Yes, back in 1976 I had a good friend who ran a firearms and jewelry store. He had taken in an M16 in trade and offered to sell it to me for what he paid for it. I told him that I couldn't understand a $200 government fee for buying a rifle that was only $50 more! Now I look back and kick myself for not buying that M16 for $250 plus the blackmail stamp.

    He also had a really nice Browning Hi-power for $250. Oh the things I passed up!!!!

  17. #17
    Senior Member Penguin's Avatar

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    It would be great to see the NFA ruled as unconstitional. I doubt it will happen though. I would be perfectly willing though to settle for opening up the registy as a great step in the right direction. I could live with paying a 200 dollar tax to buy a machine gun or convert something I already own like say my PKM into one.
    Doobie Doobie Doo..

  18. #18
    Forum Administrator Schuetzenman's Avatar

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    Quote Originally Posted by imanaknut View Post
    Yes, back in 1976 ...

    He also had a really nice Browning Hi-power for $250. Oh the things I passed up!!!!
    You to huh. BTW in that year I was a native of Indiana as well, wasn't 21 yet though, still needed another year.

  19. #19
    Senior Member Charliebravo's Avatar

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    This is never going to happen. The courts will take an "ends justify the means" approach and will engage in all sorts of legal chicanery to see to it that the ban stays in place regardless of the validity of our arguments.

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