The Connection between Avatar, and Dances with Wolfs.

[Hobe Sound AK]

Two well made Movies, but I have never liked the Theme of the 2 Films. In Dances with Wolfs, a U.S. Army Officer abandons his Country Duty, and People, and went native. In Avatar, You have a pathetic Shell of a Man, who was less a Man than his Older Brother. Come to the Planet to take over his Brothers Work. He goes Native, just like Kevin Costner, and Betrays His World. In Both Cases, these 2 Men were the Enemy, not the Hero! We had to settle the West, and Take the Indian off his Land, if we had not, they would still be in those Teepee's today!
We had the Right to settle America it was our Country! In Avatar, The Earth needed Resources, We were taking them from this Planet, In both cases we lost out to 2 Men who were week, Typical Hollywood Movie! In Avatar, I would have never bother linking with the Blue Skinned Aliens, I would have just Started Killing them! That is the difference between Liberals and Us! Kill them all let God sort them out! Paul

[ltorlo64]

Have you been drinking?

[Hobe Sound AK]

No I don't Drink! Just tired of all these Political Correct Movies, you know what I mean.

[alismith]

Sorry, Hobe, but I liked both movies. I disagree with you a little on the settling of this country. I think it could have been done differently, without subjugating the Indians like we did. Today, they are nothing compared to what they were when the first settlers came here. I believe there was a way to settle this country AND deal with the Indians in a way that was more humane and positive for them. As it was, if we wanted what they had (actually, no Indian claimed to "own" any land as they believed the land belonged to everyone and no one should claim it), we took it, most of the time, forcefully.

However, the bigger problem was that our two civilizations were so far apart, that they couldn't understand how ours worked, nor could we understand how theirs worked.

In both movies, the natives were far more in tune with the environment than the "invaders." Again, our people saw a world that was fit for the taking and screw the environment. We came for one thing and that was to, basically, strip mine Unobtanium, while destroying that world's ecosystem.

Our country's settlers did almost the same thing. We came,we saw, we wanted, we took. Screw everything else.

I don't think much of our environment would be quite so polluted now, if we have taken smaller steps in the past and tried to preserve more of the environment than we did.

I am in no way a tree-hugger, but I don't like what we did to our environment. I am lucky to live near a river that is mostly pristine and 98% clean. I fish in it, kayak and canoe in it and have even swallowed a few mouthfuls of it and thought nothing of it.

Other bodies of water are nowhere near as clean as our river and this is because man has paid no attention to how they were using it. We wouldn't have as many of these now if we have taken care of them better in the past. The Potomac River is, probably, the most polluted river in the Chesapeake Bay area and this can be seen from satellite photos. Many rivers, in the US, are the same way.

Indians lived here for hundreds of years before European settlers came and all the waterways were almost totally pure then. Now, just a fraction can be called "pure."

Granted, their technology was nowhere near as advanced as ours, but there is a price to pay for having such an advanced technology. If you're willing to put technology first, then be ready for a totally screwed up environment.

We went on a field trip to western MD about a month ago and viewed a coal strip mine. The impact it has on the environment is monumental. Where there were once woods, now is a bare hole in the ground that is spreading every day they dig there. And, the recovery rate to get it back to a fairly healthy ecosystem is slim.

So, in essence, I viewed both movies as the "invaders" were bad as far as the environment went, but since I like technology, I can see they had reasons for what they were doing. My only disagreement with them would be in how they went about obtaining the raw materials.

I really don't know what the solution is for a civilization to maintain its high level of technology and impart the least impact on the environment they are getting it from. I don't think the "storm trooper" attitude/method is the best way to meet those ends.

p.s. I didn't find these movies to be PC; I just thought of them as thought provoking and presenting a different side than is usually presented.

[Hobe Sound AK]

Yes you can look at it that way, but we had to settle this Country! just like the famous Ride West in 1875 by the North West Mounted Police, by Lord Straconia They made it to Vancouver in 1875. One of the R.C. M.P.s greatest moments all of Canada was finally Linked, by Land. The tall Brown Riding Boots the R.C.M.P. Wears, with their Red Serge Uniform, are named after him, as they were his Design. Canada also had it's Indian Wars as well, Like them, we did what we had to do. Just like the Eskamoe's in Alaska We came, We saw, and we Advanced. By 1898, with Teddy Roosevelt, The Spanish-American War, and the Mauser 1898 Bolt in our M-1903-A3 Rifle just in time for WW1, We were the Greatest Country on Earth!
We had to bail out Europe twice, as did the Canadians. Never apologize for being American! or White! or North American!

[alismith]

Yes you can look at it that way, but we had to settle this Country! just like the famous Ride West in 1875 by the North West Mounted Police, by Lord Straconia They made it to Vancouver in 1875. One of the R.C. M.P.s greatest moments all of Canada was finally Linked, by Land. The tall Brown Riding Boots the R.C.M.P. Wears, with their Red Serge Uniform, are named after him, as they were his Design. Canada also had it's Indian Wars as well, Like them, we did what we had to do. Just like the Eskamoe's in Alaska We came, We saw, and we Advanced. By 1898, with Teddy Roosevelt, The Spanish-American War, and the Mauser 1898 Bolt in our M-1903-A3 Rifle just in time for WW1, We were the Greatest Country on Earth!
We had to bail out Europe twice, as did the Canadians. Never apologize for being American! or White! or North American!

I wouldn't dream of it. We ARE the greatest country in the world, that history has ever seen.

I was just trying to say how I viewed those movies from a different perspective than you have. Conquering is always a brutal show of force. I was just trying to say that I think we could still be in the position we are in today even if we had taken a slightly different approach to the way we conquered this land. Don't get me wrong. I love technology. Without it, we wouldn't be where we are today. I'm just saying that we could have been a little easier on the natives and the environment and still be the best in history.

Anyway, I thought those movies were good and gave one pause to think. I didn't view either one as a political statement, which they were. I viewed them as pure entertainment and the CGI in Avatar was top of the line. The same with Jurassic World. If the visual effects are realistic looking, then I, usually, enjoy the movie without concentrating on the politics behind the movie.

I understand your point of view, as you viewed them both from a political standpoint; but I didn't. I just viewed them from an entertainment standpoint.

Movies like these can be viewed from different perspectives and different people come away with different feelings.

[NAPOTS]

I think a lot of what we did to the Indians was wrong. The way we treated them was not a Christian way to treat other human beings. However, I refuse to apologize for something I took no part in.

[Hobe Sound AK]

You are both right, The Indian Bureau was a Joke, True President Johnstons Letter of 1868 was wrote for protecting Indians Lands and so on. People had Land and Gold Fever, and they keep pushing till they got to the Pacific Ocean. Plus after the Civil War, lots of Folks wanted to get away from what was their Home. That is one reason why I loved the 1890's, the most Important Decade of the 19th Century was it's last. plus the British got their first Real Rifle adopted in 1888, as the .303 Lee-Medford Rifle. 1. 1891 Mosin-Nagant Rifle adopted by Russia. 2. 1892 Madame Currie discovered Radium. 3. 1893 Dr. Louis Pasteur developed a way to Pasteurized Milk and Derry Products, Also in 1893, Blockhardt makes his famous Self Loading Pistol, Which Inspired the future Luger Pistol. 4. 1894 The U.S. Army Adopts it's first Double Action Revolver. 5. the first American Car Dealership is opened, with Showroom. 6.The Mauser Brothers produce one of the most famous Semi-Auto Loading Pistol, in Caliber .30 Mauser or, 7.63 Mauser. One of the most revered

---

Pistols in the World. Still beloved today. The Mauser Broom Handle. Pistol. 1897 Bram Stoker Writes his famous Novel Dracula. 7. Not sure the Year, on this one, but T. Roosevelt get a Food and Drug Organization Established. Regulating Food in the U.S. 8. Most important Year was 1898, Mauser adopted the most famous Bolt Action in the World, with the Model 1898 Rifle Cal. 7.92mmx57 We contract with them to produce the Bolt for our forthcoming Rifle to get rid of the Krag, the M-1903-A3 the Rifle we Won WW1 with. Plus the Beautiful M-1911-A1, from the next Decade. We loose the U.S.S. Maine, and take Cuba in our Splendid little War.
1899, The shape of things to come. This was to be our last Decade with out the gift of Flight. Submarines were also starting to be tested and Advanced, We had come a long way from the C.S.A. Hunley. If I could pick any Decade in the History of our Country, Most likely, the 1890s everytime. Those 10 Years paved the Way, for things to come, Airplanes, Gernades, Machine Guns, the first Crude Submachine Gun. Tanks, GIant Airships. and sadly the Plague of 1918.

[T2K]

The comparisons and similarities between the two movies are well known. You also forgot to mention that the main male white guy characters also both ended up with the native chief's daughter (among other things).

The history of Earth is full of stronger civilizations displacing weaker ones. It's just the way it is. One notable point, though, is that the weaker civilizations that were overtaken by Europeans generally still exist today, none were exterminated. That's not true of people overtaken by, say, the Maoris or the Mongols or the Zulus. Eradication and/or complete assimilation were the more normal courses of action.

[l921428x]

White people bad.

[Hobe Sound AK]

True they should have handled taming the West in a better way, but no one was thinking of the Future, just survival.

[recon]

Wow. It was just a movie.

[dfariswheel]

All the other issues aside, Hollywood (to no surprise) just loves traitors.

"Dances With Wolves" "Avatar", the current "Snowden", many movies celebrate an American who takes a side against America.
This business of being a turncoat has been a standard Hollywood theme since Vietnam.

I don't watch many movies and I haven't seen any of the one's I listed, but this is so common I can't remember how many movies are around with this as a theme.
It's progressed from stories about a maverick bucking stupid people, to anti-establishment rebels, to out and out traitors.
How many movies feature a "hero" who's killing American agents or soldiers, always "bad" people.

[alismith]

All the other issues aside, Hollywood (to no surprise) just loves traitors.

"Dances With Wolves" "Avatar", the current "Snowden", many movies celebrate an American who takes a side against America.
This business of being a turncoat has been a standard Hollywood theme since Vietnam.

I don't watch many movies and I haven't seen any of the one's I listed, but this is so common I can't remember how many movies are around with this as a theme.
It's progressed from stories about a maverick bucking stupid people, to anti-establishment rebels, to out and out traitors.
How many movies feature a "hero" who's killing American agents or soldiers, always "bad" people.

This is a two-edged sword. Some of these weren't traitors. I think of them more as motivated to do the right thing (not talking about Snowden as I haven't seen that, and probably won't).

During the Nuremberg Trials, a lot of German soldiers and officers were told they could have defied orders when they were told to kill the Jews. Most, if not all of them, said they were just following orders. The prosecutors stated that those orders were acts against humanity and illegal. It was their duty to defy them.

If the German officers and soldiers had refused to follow their orders, then they would have been guilty of treason and killed as traitors (by the Nazi government). In Avatar, both Jake Sully and Trudy Chacon (the helicopter pilot) defied the order to kill the Pandoran natives as they deemed those orders "illegal."

Plus, in Avatar, Jake and Trudy didn't defy governmental orders. The whole operation was a mega corporation that was mining the planet for profit. I believe Colonel Quaritch was a retired marine officer and his recruits were all ex-military, but he ran the whole security detail as a military unit.

Yes, Jake and Trudy did go back on their word, but the situation had changed to a full on war against the natives, who had inferior weapons and couldn't offer much resistance. Jake and Trudy's actions leveled the playing field immensely.

So, I don't look at them as traitors, I look at them as people who weren't going to be part of a group whose mission turned into one of total annihilation of a planet's people.

Like I said, it's a two-edged sword and I don't think any of us are wrong with whatever view we came away with.

Dances with Wolves did deal with a soldier defying governmental orders, so I guess one could deem him a traitor as he was still serving when he sided with the Indians. Still I thought it was a pretty good movie.

[jet3534]

With respect to "Dances" no one can eff up a movie like Kevin Costner, ergo The Postman or Waterworld. Being single when "Dances" came out and dating different women I had to see this POS movie two effing times. The 2nd time was torture.

In the real world Costner would have been tortured by the Injuns. Torture and rape were major forms of entertainment for plains injuns.

Good reading:

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B001GXQMNY...ng=UTF8&btkr=1

https://www.amazon.com/Empire-Summer...=comanche+moon