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Thread: Anyone shoot or have experience with the Kel Tec Shotgun?

  1. #1
    Senior Member tank_monkey's Avatar

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    Anyone shoot or have experience with the Kel Tec Shotgun?



    Any experience or input would be great.

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    Team GunsNetwork PLATINUM 10/2012 rci2950's Avatar

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    https://www.thegunwriter.com/17484/a...e-kel-tec-ksg/

    An attorney in Virginia preparing a lawsuit that they will likely file against Kel-Tec and ProMag Industries.

    It appears that their client was shooting a Kel-Tec KSG equipped with a ProMag “Archangel” polymer forward grip when tragedy occurred.

    Keep in mind the KSG is a bullpup 12 gauge, with a total length of only 26 inches.

    “The properly installed forward grip slid off the gun rail while the user was ksgpumping the gun, resulting in the user shooting off part of his hand,” the attorney wrote on a lawyers-only site.

    The attorney was seeking advice and technical experts for the lawsuit. A friend saw the post and sent it to me.

    A contact wound with a 12 gauge is devastating. There’s no coming back from something like that.

    The attorney cites the compact nature of the KSG, and the fact there is nothing on the rail to “prevent the grip from sliding off.”

    They also noted alleged problems with the forward grip: “Nothing but a polymer nipple secures this grip to the rail — this nipple partially sheared off during first use.”
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    Team GunsNetwork PLATINUM 10/2012 rci2950's Avatar

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    http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/201...rail-ruptures/


    Pump Gun Problem: Kel Tec KSG Rail Ruptures

    Earlier today, commenter C Young posted the following the following comment underneath RF’s Kel-Tec KSG review. We contacted him for photos.

    “The lower rail of the forend where a foregrip is recommended is PLASTIC unlike the upper rail which is metal. Within the first 10 shots using a sig sauer stoplight foregrip, the lower rail shattered, fragmented, and broke off. Very very disappointed. Otherwise, the gun shoots great.” Thus the photo above with two more after the jump. As someone trying to return something once said a very long time ago, caveat emptor.
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    Team Guns Network Silver 04/2013 alismith's Avatar

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    I've had mine for about 2 or 3 years. I love it. Shoots great and functions great. Takes a little bit of practice to load the tubes, but once you master that. it's not so bad.

    Other than having a plastic rail to mount accessories on the bottom, I think the real problem is using a pistol grip forearm. I use the triangular, sloped one and love it. I think, with the pistol grip forearm, it allows too much pressure to be exerted in a small area on the rail, and that tends to put a lot of stress on the rail and that's one caused the rail failure.

    Yeah, if they had made the bottom rail of metal, these events wouldn't be as likely to happen, but they didn't, so you have to be careful with it.

    Like I said, the triangular fore grip doesn't appear to stress the rail, and I think it looks better on the KSG than the pistol grip, anyway.

    http://www.ebay.com/itm/Kel-Tec-KSG-...8AAOSwofxUdk9T
    Last edited by alismith; 09-15-2017 at 06:13 AM.
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    I really like mine.

    The problem with the KSG lower rail was recognized and corrected soon after production began.
    The newer hand guard is reinforced in the rail area to prevent breaking.
    A common factor in breaking rails is people using poorly made or designed vertical grips that aren't securely mounted.
    Many of these are substandard Chinese made or even air soft grips.
    With a proper grip that is well made and mounts securely there doesn't seem to be a problem.
    The MagPul VFG seems to be the preferred grip and mounts with a double bolt steel clamp that isn't easy to break off.
    If you're nervous and have the money, there is an after market aluminum rail that bolts on top of the plastic lower rail.
    The above linked info on broken handguards is one of the original old style hand guards. Note that only one rail lug is broken .
    The others are intact.
    In this case they had an original gun with the weaker hand guard and a VFG that wasn't suitable for the KSG.

    A problem with vertical grips in the newer guns is that people unfortunately take to heart the internet and Youtube advice to "Hammer the gun as hard as you can to prevent short stroking and jams".
    This simply over stress the grip or the lower rail beyond what is reasonable. There are people who manage to break off grips from metal rails on rifles from misuse.
    As long as you use the KSG with reasonable, sane force there's no problem.

    Of course lawyers never admit their client was beating the gun like a drum and just over stressed the grip or rail.
    A number of broken KSG rails are "odd" in that instead of being broken in a forward or rearward operation direction they're broken sideways.
    This appears to be caused by dropping the gun or attempting to unscrew the barrel nut while holding a forward grip to apply torque.

    If you just don't like or want a VFG, several different types of fore arm hand guards or stops are available.
    Kel-Tec sells an optional hand stop, there's a ramped hand grip, and MagPul makes an excellent hand stop that fits AR rifles and the KSG.

    Bottom line, my experience is that unless you deliberately mistreat the gun by operating it with really excessive force, a good VFG like the MagPul isn't going to break off.

    If you watch a few Youtube videos you'll see a lot of KSG jams.
    These are either very early guns that were known to have reliability problems, or the user is trying to show off how fast he can shoot the gun, and simply short stroking the gun or trying to pull the trigger before the action is closed.
    My opinion is, shooting a shotgun that fast in a mag dump is not realistic in the Real World and most any shotgun will have short stroke problems when treated like that.

    The out of the box KSG does have a stiff action and the critical areas are the last 1/4 inch of movement at both the rear stroke and the forward stroke, right were it's most likely to cause short stroking.
    The KSG is a design version of the old Ithaca Model 37 designed by John Browning. Due to the unique bottom feed-bottom ejection shell timing is different then most any other shotgun.
    In most pump shotguns shell release and staging happen sooner then in the KSG.
    The KSG feeds a shell in the very last 1/4 inch of rearward slide travel, and stages the next shell in the last 1/4 inch of forward slide travel.
    In the KSG the action out of the box may seem to be fully rearward or forward but isn't. Unless the gun is pulled ALL THE WAY back or pushed all the way forward the action will cock but a shell will not feed or stage for the next shell.

    It's that necessity of fully operating the action that causes short stroking and advice to operate the gun with really excessive force.
    You're often advised to "Beat the Hell out of it, ya can't break it".
    This is both unnecessary bad advice and can cause breaking the VFG off in extreme cases. Unless you're trying to shoot the gun as fast as humanly possible and with excessive force, you'd realize you'd broken the VFG and your hand is in front of the muzzle.
    Also remember, that a lot of AR-15 rails are plastic and if you mistreat them, they break too.

    In short, this is an operator induced failure leading to "an accident".

    In my case, I gave my KSG a "fluff and buff" of the critical areas and it now functions with very noticeably smoother, easier operation.
    Recently I had a man ask to shoot my KSG who'd never fired any pump shotgun before. He had no problem with it and no stoppages.
    I also met a couple of other KSG owners at the range and we compared guns.
    They were really surprised at how much easier my gun worked then their guns.
    I explained how to do a fluff and buff to smooth and ease operation and they told me that they would do it to their guns so they would work as smoothly as mine.

    Many people seem to want to use the KSG by loading one mag tube with buckshot and the other with slugs and switching back and forth.
    This just doesn't work out very well. It's difficult to remember which tube is which and which tube the gun is feeding from, and this leads to intending to fire one type of shell but firing the wrong one.
    In addition, in operation it's difficult to make the switch without confusion and ejecting a unfired shell from the chamber.
    Most experienced uses say to treat the KSG as a shotgun with the world's fasted reload.
    In other words, shoot one tube until it's empty then "reload" by flipping the switch to the other tube.

    There's a few accessories available, but most are rather useless Range Toy accessories like (honest to God) spikes to replace the magazine tube end bolts, I guess so you can stab someone.
    Also questionable are external spare shells holders that add weight and bulk.

    More useful is the Kel-Tec optional longer butt pad that reduces felt recoil and possibly the Kel-Tec single point sling mount.
    I personally don't like the expensive after market extended magazine selector levers. These look so long that I'd worry that it would be too easy to break it off if the gun is bumped or caught on something.
    Available are muzzle attachments that allow mounting screw in chokes or muzzle brakes.
    Mounting these requires a special barrel nut wrench to remove the extremely tight muzzle nut.

    To disassemble the magazine tubes requires a wrench or slotted tool, but you can easily make a tool from a 1/2 inch bolt, two nuts and a washer.
    If you need to service the magazines or install after market metal magazine followers the Kel-Tec site has a video showing using a heat gun, nut tool, and a thick thread locker to do the job.

    The KSG is parkerized, including inside the chamber and barrel. Like other guns with rough chambers cheap steel head ammo may cause failures to extract.
    For that reason I recommend polishing out the chamber and bore to smooth and remove the parkerizing.

    On the Kel-Tec forum is a section on how and what to fluff and buff. This will make the gun MUCH smoother and less likely to short stroke.
    When I find time I'm going to write an enhanced polish process article for that forum on how to smooth the KSG up:

    https://www.thektog.org/

    Sights are not supplied with the gun.
    Most people install a red dot or rail mount AR-15 rifle sights.
    I wanted more reliability then an electronic sight and less complication and breakage risk then AR sights that have to be manually popped up.
    So, I bought an Archangel auxiliary sight that has an Orange AR-15 front sight and a Novak type pistol rear sight.
    I used two thicknesses of Kydex to build a guard for the rear sight.
    I can use this simple sight as a precision sight for slugs, or as a flash sight picture for buckshot.
    Unlike a electric sight it's always On and has no battery to run down, unlike AR rifle sights it's always Up and there's much less chance of bumping and breaking a sight off.

    Bottom line: I really like the KSG and with a little work it can be extremely smooth and trouble free.
    You get an 8 pound, 26 1/2 inch long, 18 1/2 inch barrel bullpup shotgun that's a lot lighter and cheaper then any other similar gun on the market.
    If you don't try to show off how fast you can dump the magazines and abuse the gun, you're not going to break off a good VFG and shoot your own hand.

    The KSG is now reliable and tough enough that it's in use by the South Korean "White Tiger" special ops force, the French R.A.I.D. anti-terrorist unit, several prison guard units, and is in use by several US special ops units.



    Last edited by dfariswheel; 09-15-2017 at 07:52 PM.

  6. #6
    Team Guns Network Silver 04/2013 alismith's Avatar

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    Tank, are you planning on getting one?
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  7. #7
    Senior Member tank_monkey's Avatar

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    Quote Originally Posted by alismith View Post
    Tank, are you planning on getting one?
    My LGS has two for sale. I already have the UTAS-15. Not that thrilled with it. not smooth with racking at all. Hangs up a lot.




    BTW thanks to all who replied. LOTS of great advice here!

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    You'll like the KSG.
    It's smaller, lighter, and less bulky then any other bullpup shotgun available.

    Just go to the Kel-Tec site and read up on the fluff and buff info.
    A little work makes the gun far smoother and pretty well eliminates short stroking.

    There's also the DP-12, which is the double barrel, double magazine shotgun.
    It costs a lot more and is a lot heavier.
    Strangely, even though they look like two totally separate companies, the action is also a modified Ithaca Model 37 and some parts appear to be the same or extremely similar.

    Even stranger, the two owner's manuals have the exact same text in many areas, word for word.
    This leads me to suspect that there is some sort of connection between Kel-Tec and the company that makes the DP-12.

    I've looked at most of the bullpup shotguns and almost bought the Bullpup Armory conversion kit for an 870. They also make it for the Mossberg 500 series.
    What made me choose the KSG is the conversion kit has to be almost totally disassembled in order to remove the barrel and clean the gun.
    I figured that since the assembly nuts are molded into the plastic, sooner or later a couple would get stripped and I don't know how that could be repaired.
    However, if you have an 870 or 500 you can convert it to a very usable bullpup without any modifications to the gun and it can be de-converted back to a standard shotgun at will.

    The BP Armory kit has some interesting features, like a Glock-type trigger safety, and an AR-15 type manual safety, along with a spring loaded Limbsaver butt pad assembly that is said to really soak up the recoil.

    http://www.bullpuparmory.com/Default.asp
    Last edited by dfariswheel; 09-18-2017 at 07:27 PM.

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