Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 20 of 22

Thread: Dissension in the ranks

  1. #1
    Senior Member

    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Location
    harms way
    Posts
    17,741

    Dissension in the ranks

    Top US General Says He Would Disobey Trump – Refuse to Launch ‘Illegal’ Nuclear Strike
    The top US nuclear commander told a conference in Canada he would push back against an “illegal” order from President Trump to launch nuclear weapons.
    It’s not clear what he meant by an “illegal” order from the Commander in Chief.
    Air Force Gen. John Hyten, commander of the U.S. Strategic Command (STRATCOM), told a Halifax audience that he has given it a lot of thought since President Trump was elected.
    http://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2017...uclear-strike/

    These 2 Factors Distinguish Military Members Who Love Trump From The Ones Who Don’t
    It’s hard to overstate the significance of the paygrade divide. Nearly half (48%) of all enlisted service members approved of Trump, while fewer than a third (30%) of all officers shared that view. And a majority of officers (53%) viewed Trump unfavorably, suggesting his command style poses a bit of a headache for service members with greater responsibilities, education and status.
    http://taskandpurpose.com/trump-mili...isted-marines/

    Bonus;

    Dark Cloud: Inside The Pentagon's Leaked Internet Surveillance Archive
    The UpGuard Cyber Risk Team can now disclose that three publicly downloadable cloud-based storage servers exposed a massive amount of data collected in apparent Department of Defense intelligence-gathering operations. The repositories appear to contain billions of public internet posts and news commentary scraped from the writings of many individuals from a broad array of countries, including the United States, by CENTCOM and PACOM, two Pentagon unified combatant commands charged with US military operations across the Middle East, Asia, and the South Pacific.
    https://www.upguard.com/breaches/cloud-leak-centcom





    This dod fiasco is interesting in more ways than one. Bezos sells server storage to dod and myriad other usgov entities, meaning soros/mossad likely has direct access to all of it. Also, the billing companies for most phone networks are Israeli owned/operated, meaning soros/mossad may not have the contents of the calls but it has the goods on who called who and when, tying people together as int agencies attempt to do. Kinda like magicjack or whatever it was/is called, however majicjack, allegedly jewish owned, does have the call contents as well as the participants id's. Lol they found a way to get someone to pay them for spying on them. Such a deal.
    "And how we burned in the camps later thinking, what would things have been like, if every security operative, when he went out at night to make an arrest, had been uncertain, whether he would return alive and had to say good-bye to his family?"

  2. #2
    Team Gunsnet Platinum 06/2016 ltorlo64's Avatar

    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Location
    Back in the Pacific Northwest!
    Posts
    8,174
    I read the story and the remarks General Hyten made and this is much ado about nothing. The General correctly stated that it is his, and every officers, responsibility to advise the people who they serve, whether military or civilian. We cannot be experts on everything so when an order is given that we know to be illegal or improper, it is our responsibility to inform the superior and advise them on how to proceed. I have had this happen to me when I have given out an order and the officer or Chief I give it to comes back with the instruction to show that I can't do what I wanted. Then we look at what I am really wanting to accomplish, determine if it is possible, and if it is, determine how to make it happen. This is the same as happens in any organization. The headlines "US General Would Resist Illegal Order" or "US General Says He Would Disobey Trump" are misleading, at best, and an outright lie, at worst. In other words, the head line if fake news.
    "Nothing ever gets so bad that government "help" can't make it worse." Pat Garrett, March 22, 2014

    "HATE IS GOOD, WHEN ITS DIRECTED AT EVIL." PROBASCO, April 20, 2012

    I tried to push the envelope, but found that it was stationery.

    Have you heard about the new corduroy pillows? They're making head lines!

    NRA Endowment Member

  3. #3
    Team GunsNet Silver 12/2011 N/A's Avatar

    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Location
    Texas...at the intersection of I-20 and the Korean War Veterans Memorial Higheway
    Posts
    5,427
    The way he said it was that he would inform the President if he thought the decision was wrong (for any reason) and the President would or would not act on that advice. I didn't see that he would refuse a launch order. He also said that as someone responsible for seeing the nukes got fired, he always gives it a lot of thought, no matter if Trump, Obams or whomever. And then there was the part of taking training to know the "protocols" of launching nukes.
    Sounds more like to me that he is just describing the scenario involved, not saying he would disobey after all information was given to the President and then the order was given.

    ETA....Sounds more like the media, such as it is, is trying to play it in such a way to Make Trump look like a loose nuclear cannon. Taking another shot at Trump that ends up as a short round going off in their faces.
    Last edited by N/A; 11-19-2017 at 03:11 PM.
    No enemy of America would have ever been killed if they didn't show up to be killed. HDR

  4. #4
    Senior Member

    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Location
    harms way
    Posts
    17,741
    I read it as he's an 0bama holdover and would spike any order coming from Trump.
    "And how we burned in the camps later thinking, what would things have been like, if every security operative, when he went out at night to make an arrest, had been uncertain, whether he would return alive and had to say good-bye to his family?"

  5. #5
    Team Gunsnet Platinum 06/2016 ltorlo64's Avatar

    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Location
    Back in the Pacific Northwest!
    Posts
    8,174
    Quote Originally Posted by 5.56NATO View Post
    I read it as he's an 0bama holdover and would spike any order coming from Trump.
    The title, as I pointed out, makes it seem that way. What he actually said, however, is nowhere close to that.
    "Nothing ever gets so bad that government "help" can't make it worse." Pat Garrett, March 22, 2014

    "HATE IS GOOD, WHEN ITS DIRECTED AT EVIL." PROBASCO, April 20, 2012

    I tried to push the envelope, but found that it was stationery.

    Have you heard about the new corduroy pillows? They're making head lines!

    NRA Endowment Member

  6. #6
    Team GunsNet Silver 12/2011 N/A's Avatar

    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Location
    Texas...at the intersection of I-20 and the Korean War Veterans Memorial Higheway
    Posts
    5,427
    No enemy of America would have ever been killed if they didn't show up to be killed. HDR

  7. #7
    Team GunsNet Silver 12/2011 N/A's Avatar

    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Location
    Texas...at the intersection of I-20 and the Korean War Veterans Memorial Higheway
    Posts
    5,427
    Quote Originally Posted by 5.56NATO View Post
    I read it as he's an 0bama holdover and would spike any order coming from Trump.
    A lot of the military is "Obama holdovers". I doubt he enlisted and made General in the 8 years Obama was President. Hell, when Nixon became President, I was a military "holdover" from the Lyndon Johnson presidency. True, I was just an E5, and the only codes I knew was the UCMJ.

    Heck, even Intorlo64 is a holdover from the Obama presidency.
    Last edited by N/A; 11-19-2017 at 03:52 PM.
    No enemy of America would have ever been killed if they didn't show up to be killed. HDR

  8. #8
    Team Gunsnet Platinum 06/2016 ltorlo64's Avatar

    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Location
    Back in the Pacific Northwest!
    Posts
    8,174
    Quote Originally Posted by N/A View Post
    Heck, even Intorlo64 is a holdover from the Obama presidency.
    Bite your tongue!
    "Nothing ever gets so bad that government "help" can't make it worse." Pat Garrett, March 22, 2014

    "HATE IS GOOD, WHEN ITS DIRECTED AT EVIL." PROBASCO, April 20, 2012

    I tried to push the envelope, but found that it was stationery.

    Have you heard about the new corduroy pillows? They're making head lines!

    NRA Endowment Member

  9. #9
    Team GunsNet Silver 12/2011 N/A's Avatar

    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Location
    Texas...at the intersection of I-20 and the Korean War Veterans Memorial Higheway
    Posts
    5,427
    Quote Originally Posted by ltorlo64 View Post
    Bite your tongue!
    Not that I'd tell anyone....
    No enemy of America would have ever been killed if they didn't show up to be killed. HDR

  10. #10
    Team GunsNet Bronze 07/2011 T2K's Avatar

    Join Date
    Oct 2010
    Location
    Charleston, South Carolina
    Posts
    945
    My military experience is limited and brief (4 years Army ROTC, 2 years SC Army National Guard) but it was 100% clear in my training that I was to refuse any illegal order from any superior. The general is saying the same thing.

  11. #11
    Senior Member

    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Location
    harms way
    Posts
    17,741
    Quote Originally Posted by N/A View Post
    A lot of the military is "Obama holdovers". I doubt he enlisted and made General in the 8 years Obama was President. Hell, when Nixon became President, I was a military "holdover" from the Lyndon Johnson presidency. True, I was just an E5, and the only codes I knew was the UCMJ.

    Heck, even Intorlo64 is a holdover from the Obama presidency.
    What I meant was a domestic enemy aka progressive, regardless of what command he served under. Along the likes of this;
    http://dailycaller.com/2017/11/20/re...rivate-dinner/
    "And how we burned in the camps later thinking, what would things have been like, if every security operative, when he went out at night to make an arrest, had been uncertain, whether he would return alive and had to say good-bye to his family?"

  12. #12
    Senior Member

    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Location
    harms way
    Posts
    17,741
    Quote Originally Posted by T2K View Post
    My military experience is limited and brief (4 years Army ROTC, 2 years SC Army National Guard) but it was 100% clear in my training that I was to refuse any illegal order from any superior. The general is saying the same thing.
    Conversely, I think he's letting his like minded progressives know that if Trump said initiate oplan kimchi (a salvo of nuclear armed alcm targeting Pyonpyang from a flight of b1s) he would refuse that order. Likewise if NK emp'd the US and Trump ordered nuclear retaliation, this officer would likewise refuse. I fear Trump has been excised from the chain of command by the likes of Mcmaster and this guy.
    "And how we burned in the camps later thinking, what would things have been like, if every security operative, when he went out at night to make an arrest, had been uncertain, whether he would return alive and had to say good-bye to his family?"

  13. #13
    Senior Member

    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Location
    harms way
    Posts
    17,741
    Amazon Announces "AWS Secret" Service For The CIA, US Intelligence
    “Today we mark an important milestone as we launch the AWS Secret Region,” said Teresa Carlson, Vice President, Amazon Web Services Worldwide Public Sector. “AWS now provides the U.S. Intelligence Community a commercial cloud capability across all classification levels: Unclassified, Sensitive, Secret, and Top Secret. The U.S. Intelligence Community can now execute their missions with a common set of tools, a constant flow of the latest technology and the flexibility to rapidly scale with the mission. The AWS Top Secret Region was launched three years ago as the first air-gapped commercial cloud and customers across the U.S. Intelligence Community have made it a resounding success. Ultimately, this capability allows more agency collaboration, helps get critical information to decision makers faster, and enables an increase in our Nation’s Security.”
    http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2017-1...s-intelligence
    "And how we burned in the camps later thinking, what would things have been like, if every security operative, when he went out at night to make an arrest, had been uncertain, whether he would return alive and had to say good-bye to his family?"

  14. #14
    Team Gunsnet Platinum 06/2016 ltorlo64's Avatar

    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Location
    Back in the Pacific Northwest!
    Posts
    8,174
    Quote Originally Posted by 5.56NATO View Post
    Conversely, I think he's letting his like minded progressives know that if Trump said initiate oplan kimchi (a salvo of nuclear armed alcm targeting Pyonpyang from a flight of b1s) he would refuse that order. Likewise if NK emp'd the US and Trump ordered nuclear retaliation, this officer would likewise refuse. I fear Trump has been excised from the chain of command by the likes of Mcmaster and this guy.
    What did the General say that lead you to this belief? Remember to take what he said in context. So read all of his statement and the question he is answering, not just take words out of the middle of a sentence.
    "Nothing ever gets so bad that government "help" can't make it worse." Pat Garrett, March 22, 2014

    "HATE IS GOOD, WHEN ITS DIRECTED AT EVIL." PROBASCO, April 20, 2012

    I tried to push the envelope, but found that it was stationery.

    Have you heard about the new corduroy pillows? They're making head lines!

    NRA Endowment Member

  15. #15
    Team GunsNet Silver 12/2011 N/A's Avatar

    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Location
    Texas...at the intersection of I-20 and the Korean War Veterans Memorial Higheway
    Posts
    5,427
    It's like this, if any President woke up one morning and called for the Officer with the "football" to open it up so he could launch nukes at North Korea without any provocation or consultation, there isn't one person that will let him launch nukes. It would be an unlawful order, already written and drilled into the memory of all those in command group.

    Now, if North Korea launches a nuke at the U.S. , or any of our allies, everyone will know about it in seconds or minutes. The President would then have a lawful situation to launch a proportionate retaliatory attack. That is also already written and drilled into the command group. If the President gave the order, and anyone refused to comply, they could legally be removed and replaced by either the President or those in command further down the line.

    As pointed out in the article I linked to, if everyone thought the President was bound and determined to issue an illegal order to launch, then a preselected group could declare him incapacitated, and the Vice-President would become Presidentt and belay those orders.
    If the President orders a lawful launch, he can remove anyone who refuses to obey and replace them with someone who will follow lawful orders.

    Being in control of the most powerful nuclear arsenal on Earth, you know nothing is left to happenstance. People who are given the power over those weapons are trained in already established protocols in the use of that arsenal. It's only reasonable that a person with that power, anywhere in the launch line, would think about what they would do and how to recognize when they should or should not do it. You don't wait till the last minute to begin to think "Oh shit, what do I do now?" You should already know.

    We don't even know if when the time comes that we do need to launch nukes, if the one person who can give the order would be up to doing so. Then what?
    No enemy of America would have ever been killed if they didn't show up to be killed. HDR

  16. #16
    Registered User LAGC's Avatar

    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Posts
    8,655
    Quote Originally Posted by N/A View Post
    We don't even know if when the time comes that we do need to launch nukes, if the one person who can give the order would be up to doing so. Then what?
    Then it might be time to consult the WOPR.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WarGames
    "That tyranny has all the vices both of democracy and oligarchy is evident. As of oligarchy so of tyranny, the end is wealth; (for by wealth only can the tyrant maintain either his guard or his luxury). Both mistrust the people, and therefore deprive them of their arms." -- Aristotle, Book V, 350 B.C.E

  17. #17
    Guns Network Lifetime Member #2

    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Location
    Minnesota
    Posts
    8,842
    Quote Originally Posted by LAGC View Post
    Then it might be time to consult the WOPR.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WarGames
    LOL I was going to comment something about that's why we took all the guys out of the silo's........ LOL

  18. #18
    Senior Member

    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Location
    harms way
    Posts
    17,741
    Quote Originally Posted by ltorlo64 View Post
    What did the General say that lead you to this belief? Remember to take what he said in context. So read all of his statement and the question he is answering, not just take words out of the middle of a sentence.
    I think i got his context just fine.
    "And how we burned in the camps later thinking, what would things have been like, if every security operative, when he went out at night to make an arrest, had been uncertain, whether he would return alive and had to say good-bye to his family?"

  19. #19
    Senior Member

    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Location
    harms way
    Posts
    17,741
    Quote Originally Posted by N/A View Post
    It's like this, if any President woke up one morning and called for the Officer with the "football" to open it up so he could launch nukes at North Korea without any provocation or consultation, there isn't one person that will let him launch nukes. It would be an unlawful order, already written and drilled into the memory of all those in command group.

    Now, if North Korea launches a nuke at the U.S. , or any of our allies, everyone will know about it in seconds or minutes. The President would then have a lawful situation to launch a proportionate retaliatory attack. That is also already written and drilled into the command group. If the President gave the order, and anyone refused to comply, they could legally be removed and replaced by either the President or those in command further down the line.

    As pointed out in the article I linked to, if everyone thought the President was bound and determined to issue an illegal order to launch, then a preselected group could declare him incapacitated, and the Vice-President would become Presidentt and belay those orders.
    If the President orders a lawful launch, he can remove anyone who refuses to obey and replace them with someone who will follow lawful orders.

    Being in control of the most powerful nuclear arsenal on Earth, you know nothing is left to happenstance. People who are given the power over those weapons are trained in already established protocols in the use of that arsenal. It's only reasonable that a person with that power, anywhere in the launch line, would think about what they would do and how to recognize when they should or should not do it. You don't wait till the last minute to begin to think "Oh shit, what do I do now?" You should already know.

    We don't even know if when the time comes that we do need to launch nukes, if the one person who can give the order would be up to doing so. Then what?
    This is just a guess, but I get the feeling you'd allow NK or Iran to nuke us before we nuked them.
    "And how we burned in the camps later thinking, what would things have been like, if every security operative, when he went out at night to make an arrest, had been uncertain, whether he would return alive and had to say good-bye to his family?"

  20. #20
    Team GunsNet Silver 12/2011 N/A's Avatar

    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Location
    Texas...at the intersection of I-20 and the Korean War Veterans Memorial Higheway
    Posts
    5,427
    Quote Originally Posted by 5.56NATO View Post
    This is just a guess, but I get the feeling you'd allow NK or Iran to nuke us before we nuked them.
    That's all it is...a guess on your part.
    No enemy of America would have ever been killed if they didn't show up to be killed. HDR

Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •