New AR stock that facilitates aimed bump-firing

[Solidus-snake]

Ahh, public domain I see.

Well guys, sorry to say but if Bill does have a patent for it and it is indeed stated in the patent "rulebook" that the making of said item (or anything even close in resemblance as it seems to be thought) is infringement then I guess thats that.

HOWEVER, IF the man has a damned patent on it, then really what good is it to sue anyone who does home tinkering? Not like THEY can get a patent on it, because hes already got it. Yeah sure, TWENTY years from now they can, HOWEVER he can be improving on his idea during that time and make a Accelerator Mark2 or something if he gets it before they do.

As said, theres prolly people with even better designs sitting in their garage but with no desire or maybe no money to get it patented. But he'll never know about it.

If you decide to do any tinkering, dont let it be known then. Or at least if you do and decide to post your ideas, just keep some butthurt cream handy for those that will surely surface outta the woodwork..

[Kadmos]

HOWEVER, IF the man has a damned patent on it, then really what good is it to sue anyone who does home tinkering? Not like THEY can get a patent on it, because hes already got it. Yeah sure, TWENTY years from now they can, HOWEVER he can be improving on his idea during that time and make a Accelerator Mark2 or something if he gets it before they do.

You gotta see it from an inventors point of view.

He works for months or years to design the idea, pays 10-20 grand or more to patent it. Spends another several grand to have some test pre-production models made. Spends time working out how to market it and make a business plan. Spends a shit ton more cash to have stock made, tooling, materials, distribution, advertising.

All told I would guess Akins spent at least 2 years and 50 grand to get the project to market. (quite probably a good deal more, but just a wild guess)

Then some guy sees it, tinkers around in his workshop and makes his own for next to nothing...that's a loss of at least one sale.

But to make it much much worse, that hobbyist posts on a website to tens of thousands of other hobbyists directions on how to make their own "copy" and lists the $10 worth of common parts to make one in half an hour.

Now it's 2 years and 50K down the drain, after all who is going to pay a grand for Akins product if they can make their own with $10 in parts and a few hand tools?

And of course that (probably or possibly) never would have happened had it not been for all the work he did.

If you decide to do any tinkering, dont let it be known then.

Most inventors do work in secret for just this reason. If you are a hobbyist and just out to impress the guys on the forum with your skills, or share your interest with friends it's no big deal, but if it's your livelihood, it becomes a very big deal

Or at least if you do and decide to post your ideas, just keep some butthurt cream handy for those that will surely surface outta the woodwork..

Granted, he is being rude. But essentially people are infringing on his property in such a way as to ruin his business...how nice would you be to people doing that to you?

It really is somewhat equivalent to someone going to your place of business and wrecking the place...except in that case you would get to call the cops and have them dragged off...the most he can do is watch the market to see if someone is infringing on his property, or watch the forums, and then start a lawsuit or threaten one.

The finical hardships are just as real, but the protections aren't nearly as good.

[Solidus-snake]

And of course that (probably or possibly) never would have happened had it not been for all the work he did. .

I know your talking about the general sense, but in this case people have been messing around and making their own stocks like this for quite some time before he patented it. So no, the idea isnt his.

[mriddick]

Kadmos have you seen the various stocks in question? Do you have the original posts?

I will say again even at the time I posted my stock I had not heard of nor had Akins released his stock to the public, all my work was done without knowledge of Akins. At the time I posted I too had been working on the stock for quite a few years (started the project sometime in 1996-97?). My stock did not just appear 4 months before Akin released his stock, that post was the end of a long design process itself.

Then you have the object of the spring and using the movable AR stock which were features I did not get from Akin but was a feature I noted at the time of "bump shooters" since the mid 1980's (the moving parts were basically an exact 1 for 1 take off of the 1980's design). I did not claim to of "invented" the spring loaded AR stock as much as I adapted what I had seen others doing since the 1980's from the AR to the AK. Can you patent an idea that's in the public domain already for 20 plus years? Since the whole thing has now been declared illegal does it even matter?

This is not to take away from the Adkin stock, which I think is on a level well above anything I'd had seen when it was released. The use of a full stock, the inserts, the finger block, the bearings and all were a vast improvement of the bumping stocks and even in his words they were moving fast off the shelves when the BATF shut him down. If there is an analogy that fits lets try this, say there's a reel type mower out in the marketplace, it's such an old design no one even knows who first made them. I took the old design and copied it 90% only changing the handle design so it fits more people. Akins on the other hand designed a zero turn mower so advance it gets a patent as a new type of mower. While it could be said a reel type and zero turn mower will both mow grass I doubt anyone is going to say they are the same, or that all reel types now infringe on the new zero turn patents considering they have been out in the marketplace so long.

[Surly]

Ammo is money. Who's bump firing in this economy?

Not me...I have two SMG's I feed regularly though, as my state isn't bankrupt and I have to rotate the stockpile/surplus.

[Moebrown20]

Not me...I have two SMG's I feed regularly though, as my state isn't bankrupt and I have to rotate the stockpile/surplus.

Yeah, I forget you live in a "better economy" state.


I've read all 7 pages, wow.
What I will say will be brief.
Despite who owns such a patent, the akins was deemed "illegal."
Which means you cannot buy, build or make a profit until such a ruling is changed.

To threaten or point out about this patent is unnecessary, that's what the ATF is for.
We have over 100 posts here & the only thing it caused was censorship.
Bill, you took this thread posting out of context.
It started about a new stock that people was talking about similar function & how is it legal.
Two members here was talking about a member here that built something years ago. We know what the ATF did. You just took it out on the wrong people.

[skorpion]

Wow, I did not expect this topic to get so dramatic when I posted it. To throw in my two cents, if it were not for the "garage tinkerers" of yesteryear secretly tinkering away to improve already existing designs or designing objects that were potentially similar to an already existing design (whether they knew about its existance or not), The Flintstones would not be a cartoon, but reality. Granted, the law is the law, but the law is not always followed and this fact is one thing that needs to be thought about before investing all of the time and money necessary into obtaining a patent. In some cases, it is extremely worthwhile. The worthwhile cases seem to be instances that involve a revolutionary technology, a new idea that simply catches on and becomes popular, or a product that nobody may ever have thought of before or successfully created, such as Thomas Edison's phonogragh, the first-ever sound/voice recording device. In other cases, as we see here, a design becomes simply an expensive burden that bears no real income to its patent holder. To bring up Thomas Edison once again, he may have created the first reliable light bulb, but he certainly was not the first to tinker around with the idea of electric lighting. He just happened to be the guy with the initiative to create a marketable design for the concept and to go out and obtain the patent.

Mr. Akins may have designed and created a very effective and attractive design for facilitating the act of bump-firing, but like Edison and his light bulb, it was not exactly a new idea at the time his patent was applied for. Mr. Akins just happened to be the one, like Edison, with the initiative to create a marketable design that can be patented. Unfortunately for Mr. Akins, the time and effort spent on his patent and on marketing may not have been financially worth it. However, this may change if Slide Fire Solutions' design becomes successful and Mr. Akins is able to collect royalties because of the claims in his patent.

[Kadmos]

Kadmos have you seen the various stocks in question? Do you have the original posts?

No and no. I have never held any of these, I do have a bit of understanding of the two marketed versions, and a much smaller understanding of yours.

I will say again even at the time I posted my stock I had not heard of nor had Akins released his stock to the public, all my work was done without knowledge of Akins. At the time I posted I too had been working on the stock for quite a few years (started the project sometime in 1996-97?). My stock did not just appear 4 months before Akin released his stock, that post was the end of a long design process itself.

I was unaware. However, if the items are similar, and he got the patent first, and if it appears your design infringes on his patent, then sorry to say, but sucks for you.

Not trying to be rude, but that's how the system is set up, if 100 people are working independently on the problem, and 1 person manages to get the patent that covers it, they "win".

If you had published it previously, you may be able to sue him for stealing your idea, but with him holding the patent odds are stacked against you.

Then you have the object of the spring and using the movable AR stock which were features I did not get from Akin but was a feature I noted at the time of "bump shooters" since the mid 1980's (the moving parts were basically an exact 1 for 1 take off of the 1980's design). I did not claim to of "invented" the spring loaded AR stock as much as I adapted what I had seen others doing since the 1980's from the AR to the AK. Can you patent an idea that's in the public domain already for 20 plus years? Since the whole thing has now been declared illegal does it even matter?

The only real answer I can give for that is "a person could try to patent it". The patent process is expensive partly for this reason, it requires a lot of research to make sure no one else has the patent and that the idea is patentable.

Even with it declared illegal it still matters, the product may be legal in other countries and the US patent may help with patents there. If this new one infringes on Akins patent but is legal then he can try to license it to them, or sue them, or possibly even build a competing model after shutting them down.

Some part of the patent may turn out to be useful to some other industry...this actually happens a lot, a manufacturing company tries to patent their new improvement to something and find out it steps on an existing patent...then they have to go out find who owns that patent and try to buy the patent or a license to use it.

If there is an analogy that fits lets try this, say there's a reel type mower out in the marketplace, it's such an old design no one even knows who first made them. I took the old design and copied it 90% only changing the handle design so it fits more people. Akins on the other hand designed a zero turn mower so advance it gets a patent as a new type of mower. While it could be said a reel type and zero turn mower will both mow grass I doubt anyone is going to say they are the same, or that all reel types now infringe on the new zero turn patents considering they have been out in the marketplace so long.

I do get what you are saying, generally speaking in that case the reel type would be public domain, your new handle may get a patent (or may not) and his design may get a patent (or may not).

Anyone could continue to make a reel type mower, only you (or people you license it to) could make one with the "mriddick handle" and only Akins could make his zero turn model.

The question is, is this the same sort of thing? And the answer is a bit fuzzier.

Lots of people already made the reel type mower, it could be seen around town on Saturdays mowing laws, it was obvious and in the public eye. Photos exist, ads selling them were in the paper.

It's really unlikely that the patent clerk would allow anyone to patent the general concept of the reel mower. Especially if he has one sitting at home.

But few people own the "Mriddick bumper", maybe a few heard of it, or maybe a few kicked around the general notion, but it's not quite mainstream enough that it's clear it existed before or was beyond the "pre production" stage.

Whereas before someone else did patent it, Akins developed his product and gained a patent.

Sorry..I'm having a tough time explaining this well. But basically he could sue you, you (assuming you did produce or publish before him*) could sue him..but with a patent he is more likely to win, both of you could try to sue this new guy

*not calling you a liar, just saying I didn't see the posts, don't know the device, and don't even know if it would technically be an infringement depending on the working principals and design

What I'm saying is since he has the patent he gets a bit more benefit of the doubt in court, and a lot more strength at the bargaining table.

[Krupski]

Well now I'm wondering how to make the tapco knock off.

Was it declared illegal?

The "Tapco Knockoff" that many of us here "invented" can be summed up with one picture:

[Kadmos]

The "Tapco Knockoff" that many of us here "invented" can be summed up with one picture:

Yep, that's exactly what a patent holder hates to see. A ten dollar homemade solution that ruins his business, with directions plastered on the internet.

ATF aside, that's why the man has a urge to be a bit pissy.

[Krupski]

Yeah, I forget you live in a "better economy" state.


I've read all 7 pages, wow.
What I will say will be brief.
Despite who owns such a patent, the akins was deemed "illegal."
Which means you cannot buy, build or make a profit until such a ruling is changed.

The true absurdity is that the Akin's product does NOT make a machinegun, nor does it make a rifle that fires more than one shot per trigger pull (i.e. a machinegun).

According to BATFE's own definitions, the Akin's stock is legal. The real crime here is that some ATF asshole arbitrarily decided to make up a different rule.

On the other hand, why Mr. Akins even submitted a sample to BATFE is beyond me. It's not a firearm, it's not a machinegun, it's not even in BATFE jurisdiction.

Hell, should I ask BATFE permission before I clean my rifle? What if I use unapproved oil in my rifle??? Oh the horror!

[slamfire51]

Yeah, I forget you live in a "better economy" state.


I've read all 7 pages, wow.
What I will say will be brief.
Despite who owns such a patent, the akins was deemed "illegal."
Which means you cannot buy, build or make a profit until such a ruling is changed.

To threaten or point out about this patent is unnecessary, that's what the ATF is for.
We have over 100 posts here & the only thing it caused was censorship.
Bill, you took this thread posting out of context.
It started about a new stock that people was talking about similar function & how is it legal.
Two members here was talking about a member here that built something years ago. We know what the ATF did. You just took it out on the wrong people.

Moe, as per board rules, please change the "RED" illegal to another color.
Thanks.

[Krupski]

But few people own the "Mriddick bumper".....

Well, mriddick thought of it and built his own. So did I. So did many other people.

To my knowledge, nobody SOLD them as a commercial product. So, there is no such thing as a "Mriddick bumper". There's a stock and spring that Mriddick cobbled together, and there's a stock and spring that Krupski cobbled together, but none of us has manufactured, marketed or sold them.

Now that I know the idea is patented, I won't be manufacturing and selling bump stocks (not that I ever planned to anyway), but I sure as hell will build and use my own for my own private purposes if and when ever I want to.

[slamfire51]

Well, mriddick thought of it and built his own. So did I. So did many other people.

To my knowledge, nobody SOLD them as a commercial product. So, there is no such thing as a "Mriddick bumper". There's a stock and spring that Mriddick cobbled together, and there's a stock and spring that Krupski cobbled together, but none of us has manufactured, marketed or sold them.

Now that I know the idea is patented, I won't be manufacturing and selling bump stocks (not that I ever planned to anyway), but I sure as hell will build and use my own for my own private purposes if and when ever I want to.

Tell em like it is!!!
My thoughts exactly.

[Krupski]

Yep, that's exactly what a patent holder hates to see. A ten dollar homemade solution that ruins his business, with directions plastered on the internet.

ATF aside, that's why the man has a urge to be a bit pissy.

Not exactly rocket science.......

Actually, my first attempt used only a cross-pin to retain the spring in the rear. The spring wound itself over the pin and tried to escape!

So I placed the cap from a prescription bottle over the end of the spring and THEN retained it with the pin. Worked like a charm.

I wonder if a polyurethane spring (oops I mean bumper... no I mean elastomer... um... whatever)... I wonder if a flexible, compressible piece of polyurethane instead of a steel spring would sidestep (oops I mean not infringe on) the patent?

[Krupski]

Yep, that's exactly what a patent holder hates to see. A ten dollar homemade solution that ruins his business, with directions plastered on the internet.

ATF aside, that's why the man has a urge to be a bit pissy.

WE didn't ruin his business. The monkeys at BATFE did.

[Kadmos]

Well, mriddick thought of it and built his own. So did I. So did many other people.

To my knowledge, nobody SOLD them as a commercial product. So, there is no such thing as a "Mriddick bumper". There's a stock and spring that Mriddick cobbled together, and there's a stock and spring that Krupski cobbled together, but none of us has manufactured, marketed or sold them.

Now that I know the idea is patented, I won't be manufacturing and selling bump stocks (not that I ever planned to anyway), but I sure as hell will build and use my own for my own private purposes if and when ever I want to.

I just gave it a name as a theoretical to a potential product.

If he had patented it, Akins would have had to get licensing from him.

Selling it has little to due with it, but holding a patent still gives a person some legal protection.

If you want to make one that's your business, but you should be aware

1. Mr Akins can sue you for doing so..and he probably has a decent case
2. The feds can put you in prison

to me, either one of those things is plenty of reason not to bother doing it.

As to your earlier comment

According to BATFE's own definitions, the Akin's stock is legal. The real crime here is that some ATF asshole arbitrarily decided to make up a different rule.

Well..no that's not the case, quite obviously..otherwise Akins would still be in business.

You can just as easily blame the AFT guy who wrote the initial letter, who apparently got it "wrong".

Or you can say either one was arbitrary :dunno:

On the other hand, why Mr. Akins even submitted a sample to BATFE is beyond me. It's not a firearm, it's not a machinegun, it's not even in BATFE jurisdiction.

2 reasons

1. If he was wrong and they declared it a machine gun he would be out a shitton of money

2. customers were otherwise leery of a product that had questionable legality..why spend $1000 to find out that it's illegal. Those letters are ment to quell customers worries.

Hell, should I ask BATFE permission before I clean my rifle? What if I use unapproved oil in my rifle??? Oh the horror!

If the oil is causing full auto fire then you might want to switch to something else..otherwise that has nothing to do with the topic.

[Kadmos]

WE didn't ruin his business. The monkeys at BATFE did.

Possibly a bit of both. My point was to explain why garage tinkerers, and homemade verisons matter.

[circuits]

I've read all 7 pages, wow.
What I will say will be brief.
Despite who owns such a patent, the akins was deemed "illegal."
Which means you cannot buy, build or make a profit until such a ruling is changed.

The ATF didn't rule Akin's invention to be "illegal", ATF ruled it to be "a machine gun conversion"

Mr. Akins is free to build and market his invention to anyone who can legally own a current-production machinegun conversion, provided he has a Type 7 FFL and Class 2 SOT.

Said ruling does admittedly cut his market down severely, from what his business plans were expecting.

[Moebrown20]

I had to look at this Patent US6101918.








The design in the patent & the one KKKrupski displayed are not the same.