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Thread: Just gained new respect for Prince

  1. #21
    Guns Network Contributor 01/2015 Altarboy's Avatar

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    I never got him. Sad that he died so young.

    Glad to see old timers here.

  2. #22
    Administrator imanaknut's Avatar

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    One rare necro-thread worth digging up.

  3. #23
    Administrator Krupski's Avatar

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    Quote Originally Posted by El Duce View Post
    I saw this thread, read some of the posters. And was like Damn! Some old timers are posting again!


    I was never really a fan of Prince. Though he was a talented performer. RIP. Thanks for the memories!


    I saw it too... and I saw HDR's name and avatar. Wondered if he returned from wherever he went to... then I saw the date.
    Gentlemen may prefer Blondes, but Real Men prefer Redheads!

  4. #24
    Senior Member tank_monkey's Avatar

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    Another thing that ups Prince's standing in my eyes...


  5. #25
    Senior Member Full Otto's Avatar

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    No shit?
    Now that's interesting
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  6. #26
    Forum Administrator Schuetzenman's Avatar

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    Unfortunately he did not have a will. Now the state decides who gets what.

  7. #27
    Administrator Krupski's Avatar

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    Quote Originally Posted by tank_monkey View Post
    Another thing that ups Prince's standing in my eyes...

    Has anyone read the book (not "seen the movie") "Starship Troopers" by Robert Heinlein?

    The basic idea is that in the past (i.e. the 20th century era) people wanted everything for free (democrat / socialist "share the wealth") which led to the downfall of most of civilization and a takeover by the military to restore order and civilization.

    One thing they instituted was that no person was a CITIZEN with voting rights unless they served in the military. People weren't born a citizen - they had to EARN it. Those who didn't were merely "civilians" who had a lower status than citizens.

    Another thing was that school kids were required to take a course called "History and Moral Philosophy" where everyone learned how things WERE and why things NOW are the way they are.

    The main character in the story took that class from a "Mr. Dubois" (whom he later learned was Lt. Col. Dubois of the Mobile Infantry). In the class, this is what he said about the "value" of things, and how it's important to earn what you have. Here it is:


    When he was plain Mr. Dubois and I was one of the kids who had to take his course he hardly seemed to see me — except once when he got me sore by implying that I had too much money and not enough sense. (So my old man could have bought the school and given it to me for Christmas — is that a crime? It was none of his business.)

    He had been droning along about value, comparing the Marxist theory with the orthodox use theory.

    Mr. Dubois had said, Of course, the Marxian definition of value is ridiculous. All the work one cares to add will not turn a mud pie into an apple tart; it remains a mud pie, value zero. By corollary, unskillful work can easily subtract value; an untalented cook can turn wholesome dough and fresh green apples, valuable already, into an inedible mess, value zero. Conversely, a great chef can fashion of those same materials a confection of greater value than a commonplace apple tart, with no more effort than an ordinary cook uses to prepare an ordinary sweet.

    These kitchen illustrations demolish the Marxian theory of value — the fallacy from which the entire magnificent fraud of communism derives — and to illustrate the truth of the common-sense definition as measured in terms of use.

    Dubois had waved his stump at us. Nevertheless — wake up, back there! — nevertheless the disheveled old mystic of Das Kapital, turgid, tortured, confused, and neurotic, unscientific, illogical, this pompous fraud Karl Marx, nevertheless had a glimmering of a very important truth. If he had possessed an analytical mind, he might have formulated the first adequate definition of value... and this planet might have been saved endless grief.

    Or might not, he added. You!

    I had sat up with a jerk.

    If you can’t listen, perhaps you can tell the class whether "value" is a relative, or an absolute?

    I had been listening; I just didn’t see any reason not to listen with eyes closed and spine relaxed. But his question caught me out; I hadn’t read that day’s assignment. "An absolute", I answered, guessing.

    Wrong, he said coldly. "Value" has no meaning other than in relation to living beings. The value of a thing is always relative to a particular person, is completely personal and different in quantity for each living human — "market value" is a fiction, merely a rough guess at the average of personal values, all of which must be quantitatively different or trade would be impossible. (I had wondered what Father would have said if he had heard market value called a fiction — snort in disgust, probably.)

    This very personal relationship, "value", has two factors for a human being: first, what he can do with a thing, its use to him... and second, what he must do to get it, its cost to him. There is an old song which asserts that "the best things in life are free.’ Not true! Utterly false! This was the tragic fallacy which brought on the decadence and collapse of the democracies of the twentieth century; those noble experiments failed because the people had been led to believe that they could simply vote for whatever they wanted... and get it, without toil, without sweat, without tears.

    Nothing of value is free. Even the breath of life is purchased at birth only through gasping effort and pain. He had been still looking at me and added, If you boys and girls had to sweat for your toys the way a newly born baby has to struggle to live you would be happier... and much richer.
    As it is, with some of you, I pity the poverty of your wealth.

    You! I’ve just awarded you the prize for the hundred-meter dash. Does it make you happy?

    Uh, I suppose it would.

    No dodging, please. You have the prize — here, I’ll write it out: "Grand prize for the championship, one hundred-meter sprint." He had actually come back to my seat and pinned it on my chest. There! Are you happy? You value it — or don’t you?

    I was sore. First that dirty crack about rich kids — a typical sneer of those who haven’t got it — and now this farce. I ripped it off and chucked it at him.

    Mr. Dubois had looked surprised. It doesn’t make you happy?

    You know darn well I placed fourth!

    Exactly! The prize for first place is worthless to you... because you haven’t earned it. But you enjoy a modest satisfaction in placing fourth; you earned it. I trust that some of the somnambulists here understood this little morality play. I fancy that the poet who wrote that song meant to imply that the best things in life must be purchased other than with money — which is true — just as the literal meaning of his words is false. The best things in life are beyond money; their price is agony and sweat and devotion... and the price demanded for the most precious of all things in life is life itself — ultimate cost for perfect value.
    ...and another section...

    I found myself mulling over a discussion in our class in History and Moral Philosophy.

    Mr. Dubois was talking about the disorders that preceded the breakup of the North American republic, back in the 20th. century. According to him, there was a time just before they went down the drain when such crimes as Dillinger’s [soldier who murdered a little girl] were as common as dogfights.

    The Terror had not been just in North America — Russia and the British Isles had it, too, as well as other places. But it reached its peak in North America shortly before things went to pieces.

    Law-abiding people, Dubois had told us, hardly dared go into a public park at night. To do so was to risk attack by wolf packs of children, armed with chains, knives, home made guns, bludgeons... to be hurt at least, robbed most certainly, injured for life probably — or even killed. This went on for years, right up to the war between the Russo-Anglo-American Alliance and the Chinese Hegemony.

    Murder, drug addiction, larceny, assault, and vandalism were commonplace.

    Nor were parks the only places — these things happened also on the streets in daylight, on school grounds, even inside school buildings.

    But parks were so notoriously unsafe that honest people stayed clear of them after dark.

    I had tried to imagine such things happening in our schools. I simply couldn’t. Nor in our parks. A park was a place for fun, not for getting hurt. As for getting killed in one — Mr. Dubois, didn’t they have police? Or courts?

    They had many more police than we have. And more courts. All overworked. I guess I don’t get it. If a boy in our city had done anything half that bad... well, he and his father would have been flogged side by side. But such things just didn’t happen.

    Mr. Dubois then demanded of me, Define a juvenile delinquent. Uh, one of those kids — the ones who used to beat up people. Wrong.

    Huh? But the book said — My apologies. Your textbook does so state. But calling a tail a leg does not make the name fit Juvenile delinquent is a contradiction in terms, one which gives a clue to their problem and their failure to solve it.

    Have you ever raised a puppy? Yes, sir. Did you housebreak him? Err... yes, sir. Eventually. It was my slowness in this that caused my mother to rule that dogs must stay out of the house.

    Ah, yes. When your puppy made mistakes, were you angry? What? Why, he didn’t know any better; he was just a puppy. What did you do? Why, I scolded him and rubbed his nose in it and paddled him. Surely he could not understand your words? No, but he could tell I was sore at him! But you just said that you were not angry.

    Mr. Dubois had an infuriating way of getting a person mixed up. No, but I had to make him think I was. He had to learn, didn’t he? Conceded. But, having made it clear to him that you disapproved, how could you be so cruel as to spank him as well? You said the poor beastie didn’t know that he was doing wrong. Yet you indicted pain. Justify yourself! Or are you a sadist?

    I didn’t then know what a sadist was — but I knew pups. Mr. Dubois, you have to! You scold him so that he knows he’s in trouble, you rub his nose in it so that he will know what trouble you mean, you paddle him so that he darn well won’t do it again — and you have to do it right away! It doesn’t do a bit of good to punish him later; you’ll just confuse him. Even so, he won’t learn from one lesson, so you watch and catch him again and paddle him still harder. Pretty soon he learns. But it’s a waste of breath just to scold him. Then I added, I guess you’ve never raised pups.

    Many. I’m raising a dachshund now — by your methods. Let’s get back to those juvenile criminals. The most vicious averaged somewhat younger than you here in this class... and they often started their lawless careers much younger. Let us never forget that puppy. These children were often caught, police arrested batches each day. Were they scolded? Yes, often scathingly. Were their noses rubbed in it? Rarely. News organs and officials usually kept their names secret — in many places the law so required for criminals under eighteen. Were they spanked? Indeed not! Many had never been spanked even as small children; there was a widespread belief that spanking, or any punishment involving pain, did a child permanent psychic damage. (I had reflected that my father must never have heard of that theory.)

    Corporal punishment in schools was forbidden by law, he had gone on. Flogging was lawful as sentence of court only in one small province, Delaware, and there only for a few crimes and was rarely invoked; it was regarded as cruel and unusual punishment. Dubois had mused aloud, I do not understand objections to cruel and unusual punishment. While a judge should be benevolent in purpose, his awards should cause the criminal to suffer, else there is no punishment — and pain is the basic mechanism built into us by millions of years of evolution which safeguards us by warning when something threatens our survival. Why should society refuse to use such a highly perfected survival mechanism? However, that period was loaded with pre-scientific pseudo-psychological nonsense.

    As for unusual, punishment must be unusual or it serves no purpose. He then pointed his stump at another boy. What would happen if a puppy were spanked every hour? Uh... probably drive him crazy! Probably. It certainly will not teach him anything. How long has it been since the principal of this school last had to switch a pupil? Uh, I’m not sure. About two years. The kid that swiped — Never mind. Long enough. It means that such punishment is so unusual as to be significant, to deter, to instruct. Back to these young criminals — They probably were not spanked as babies; they certainly were not flogged for their crimes. The usual sequence was: for a first offense, a warning — a scolding, often without trial.

    After several offenses a sentence of confinement but with sentence suspended and the youngster placed on probation. A boy might be arrested many times and convicted several times before he was punished — and then it would be merely confinement, with others like him from whom he learned still more criminal habits. If he kept out of major trouble while confined, he could usually evade most of even that mild punishment, be given probation — paroled in the jargon of the times.

    This incredible sequence could go on for years while his crimes increased in frequency and viciousness, with no punishment whatever save rare dull-but-comfortable confinements.

    Then suddenly, usually by law on his eighteenth birthday, this so-called juvenile delinquent becomes an adult criminal — and sometimes wound up in only weeks or months in a death cell awaiting execution for murder.


    You — He had singled me out again. Suppose you merely scolded your puppy, never punished him, let him go on making messes in the house... and occasionally locked him up in an outbuilding but soon let him back into the house with a warning not to do it again. Then one day you notice that he is now a grown dog and still not housebroken — whereupon you whip out a gun and shoot him dead. Comment, please?

    Why... that’s the craziest way to raise a dog I ever heard of! I agree. Or a child. Whose fault would it be? Uh... why, mine, I guess. Again I agree. But I’m not guessing. Mr. Dubois, a girl blurted out, but why? Why didn’t they spank little kids when they needed it and use a good dose of the strap on any older ones who deserved it — the sort of lesson they wouldn’t forget! I mean ones who did things really bad. Why not?

    I don’t know, he had answered grimly, except that the time-tested method of instilling social virtue and respect for law in the minds of the young did not appeal to a pre-scientific pseudo-professional class who called themselves social workers or sometimes child psychologists. It was too simple for them, apparently, since anybody could do it, using only the patience and firmness needed in training a puppy. I have sometimes wondered if they cherished a vested interest in disorder — but that is unlikely; adults almost always act from conscious highest motives no matter what their behavior.

    But — good heavens! the girl answered. I didn’t like being spanked any more than any kid does, but when I needed it, my mama delivered. The only time I ever got a switching in school I got another one when I got home and that was years and years ago. I don’t ever expect to be hauled up in front of a judge and sentenced to a flogging; you behave yourself and such things don’t happen. I don’t see anything wrong with our system; it’s a lot better than not being able to walk outdoors for fear of your life — why, that’s horrible!

    I agree. Young lady, the tragic wrongness of what those well-meaning people did, contrasted with what they thought they were doing, goes very deep. They had no scientific theory of morals. They did have a theory of morals and they tried to live by it (I should not have sneered at their motives) but their theory was wrong — half of it fuzzy-headed wishful thinking, half of it rationalized charlatanry. The more earnest they were, the farther it led them astray.

    You see, they assumed that Man has a moral instinct.

    Sir? But I thought — But he does! I have.

    No, my dear, you have a cultivated conscience, a most carefully trained one. Man has no moral instinct . He is not born with moral sense. You were not born with it, I was not — and a puppy has none. We acquire moral sense, when we do, through training, experience, and hard sweat of the mind. These unfortunate juvenile criminals were born with none, even as you and I, and they had no chance to acquire any; their experiences did not permit it. What is moral sense? It is an elaboration of the instinct to survive. The instinct to survive is human nature itself, and every aspect of our personalities derives from it. Anything that conflicts with the survival instinct acts sooner or later to eliminate the individual and thereby fails to show up in future generations.

    This truth is mathematically demonstrable, everywhere verifiable; it is the single eternal imperative controlling everything we do. But the instinct to survive, he had gone on, can be cultivated into motivations more subtle and much more complex than the blind, brute urge of the individual to stay alive.

    Young lady, what you miscalled your moral instinct was the instilling in you by your elders of the truth that survival can have stronger imperatives than that of your own personal survival. Survival of your family, for example. Of your children, when you have them. Of your nation, if you struggle that high up the scale. And so on up.

    A scientifically verifiable theory of morals must be rooted in the individual’s instinct to survive — and nowhere else! — and must correctly describe the hierarchy of survival, note the motivations at each level, and resolve all conflicts. We have such a theory now; we can solve any moral problem, on any level. Self-interest, love of family, duty to country, responsibility toward the human race — we are even developing an exact ethic for extra-human relations.

    But all moral problems can be illustrated by one misquotation: Greater love hath no man than a mother cat dying to defend her kittens. Once you understand the problem facing that cat and how she solved it, you will then be ready to examine yourself and learn how high up the moral ladder you are capable of climbing.

    These juvenile criminals hit a low level. Born with only the instinct for survival, the highest morality they achieved was a shaky loyalty to a peer group, a street gang. But the do-gooders attempted to appeal to their better natures, to reach them, to spark their moral sense.

    Tosh! They had no better natures; experience taught them that what they were doing was the way to survive. The puppy never got his spanking; therefore what he did with pleasure and success must be moral. The basis of all morality is duty, a concept with the same relation to group that self-interest has to individual. Nobody preached duty to these kids in a way they could understand — that is, with a spanking. But the society they were in told them endlessly about their rights. The results should have been predictable, since a human being has no natural rights of any nature.

    Mr. Dubois had paused. Somebody took the bait. Sir? How about life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness? Ah, yes, the unalienable rights. Each year someone quotes that magnificent poetry. Life? What right to life has a man who is drowning in the Pacific? The ocean will not hearken to his cries. What right to life has a man who must die if he is to save his children? If he chooses to save his own life, does he do so as a matter of right? If two men are starving and cannibalism is the only alternative to death, which man’s right is unalienable? And is it right? As to liberty, the heroes who signed that great document pledged themselves to buy liberty with their lives. Liberty is never unalienable; it must be redeemed regularly with the blood of patriots or it always vanishes.

    Of all the so-called natural human rights that have ever been invented, liberty is least likely to be cheap and is never free of cost. The third right? — the pursuit of happiness? It is indeed unalienable but it is not a right; it is simply a universal condition which tyrants cannot take away nor patriots restore. Cast me into a dungeon, burn me at the stake, crown me king of kings, I can pursue happiness as long as my brain lives — but neither gods nor saints, wise men nor subtle drugs, can insure that I will catch it.

    Mr. Dubois then turned to me. I told you that juvenile delinquent is a contradiction in terms. Delinquent means failing in duty. But duty is an adult virtue — indeed a juvenile becomes an adult when, and only when, he acquires a knowledge of duty and embraces it as dearer than the self-love he was born with. There never was, there cannot be a juvenile delinquent. But for every juvenile criminal there are always one or more adult delinquents — people of mature years who either do not know their duty, or who, knowing it, fail.

    And that was the soft spot which destroyed what was in many ways an admirable culture. The junior hoodlums who roamed their streets were symptoms of a greater sickness; their citizens (all of them counted as such) glorified their mythology of rights... and lost track of their duties. No nation, so constituted, can endure.

    A lot of "critics" said the book was full of "political rambling", but I disagree... the author is SPOT ON.
    Gentlemen may prefer Blondes, but Real Men prefer Redheads!

  8. #28
    Senior Member Aggressive Perfector's Avatar

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    What is it about stars dying, and then suddenly everyone appreciates them? No one gave a fuck that this guy could shred 2 weeks ago.
    "Never take pity on a blind man. He may not be able to see, but he saves a fortune by getting the butt ugly hookers".

  9. #29
    Senior Member Full Otto's Avatar

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    I guess you didn't notice the thread is nearly six years old
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  10. #30
    Senior Member Aggressive Perfector's Avatar

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    Sure didn't. Wtf is with these zombie threads lately?

    Anywhore, I'm sticking to my guns here. Other than having to hear his music everytime I watch Tim Burton's Batman, the last time I heard anything related to Prince was when Jackson Taylor sang Purple Rain. Otherwise I rarely hear anyone talking about him. Then the guy keels over and all of a sudden he's everyones favorite for a while.

    This isn't unique to prince, it happens with other artists who were iconic in their era.
    "Never take pity on a blind man. He may not be able to see, but he saves a fortune by getting the butt ugly hookers".

  11. #31
    Senior Member Full Otto's Avatar

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    Sorry all I guess I could have done it differently
    I had to look up "necro-thread", now I get it
    But I get what you're saying I guess that's just the nature of the beast
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  12. #32
    Senior Member Aggressive Perfector's Avatar

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    Guess so. Maybe the news just stirs a bunch of nostalgia.
    "Never take pity on a blind man. He may not be able to see, but he saves a fortune by getting the butt ugly hookers".

  13. #33
    Senior Member Full Otto's Avatar

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    Sounding more and more that it was an overdose of prescription drugs
    For peace of mind, resign as general manager of the universe

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