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Thread: Snowden, hero or useful idiot?

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    Team GunsNet Silver 04/2014 El Jefe's Avatar

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    Snowden, hero or useful idiot?

    While its useful to know that we're being spied on by our government, it doesn't make Snowden any less of a traitor. Also, us knowing hasn't changed anything.


    There has been a lot of debate about whether NSA leaker Edward Snowden is a hero or a traitor. It ought to be pretty much settled by Snowden’s appearance with Vladimir Putin on Russian television.

    I was leaning toward “traitor” from early on. While I was happy that some of the information on mass surveillance was leaked so the public could have an informed debate about it, I was suspicious of the fact that Snowden promptly decamped to China and then to Russia — two countries with long records of using surveillance as a means of oppressing their people, who were clearly interested only in using Snowden as a propaganda point against America. Which Snowden could have and should have known.

    If he didn’t know it, well, he knows it now. Snowden just got a lesson in his propaganda value when he was invited to appear by video during a television interview with Vladimir Putin to ask whether Russia engages in mass surveillance of its citizens. Putin said no — though it’s telling that the main reason he gave was lack of money and equipment — and then went on to declare that Russia’s “special services” are strictly government by law. Which is, of course, a total lie.

    You may recall that the crisis in Ukraine has been punctuated by leaked recordings of private phone conservations among Western leaders and diplomats. Since the leaks are uniformly favorable to Russian interests, it’s obvious that Russia is behind it. So there’s every reason to believe that Putin is engaged in at least as much espionage as the US, and that he’s more willing to exploit it for propaganda purposes.

    Presumably Snowden thought he was going to answer his critics by showing that he is willing to bravely question his Russian host on spying. But it didn’t come off that way.

    First of all, would Snowden or any of his defenders have considered this sufficient in the West—to simply ask a public official whether or not he’s spying and assume that the answer is meaningful when there is absolutely no way to verify it? Is there any effective legislative oversight or political opposition in Russia? Is there any functioning investigative journalism, or do those who ask too many questions have a tendency to get beaten to death, shot, or thrown out of windows?

    The Putin regime controls the media, which is mostly owned by the state or by businessmen connected to the state, and it targets critics and political rivals — such as Mikhail Khodorkovsky and Alexei Navalny — with arbitrary prosecutions in Kremlin-controlled courts.

    In this context, does it even matter whether Czar Vladimir also spies on his subjects’ phone calls? The NSA’s spying is such a big issue in the West because we are so free. We worry about mass surveillance, even if it is supposed to be targeted at finding terrorists, because we worry that this will be a first violation of civil liberties that will lead to others. In Putin’s Russia, it would be the last violation, lost among all the others.

    In asking that question of Putin, Snowden is helping the Russian leader and the country’s subservient press to pretend that none of this is true. He’s enabling Putin, incredibly, to pose as morally superior to the West and as more lawful than the United States government. Snowden is lending his credibility to the official line of Kremlin propaganda.

    At worst, Snowden has sold himself out to his Russian hosts. At best, he is what Lenin called a “useful idiot,” a Western leftist caught up in his own agenda who tries not to think too much about whose interests he is really serving.

    This is a microcosm of what is destroying the West. Our ability to criticize our own societies is one of our core strengths. But it has been turned into a destructive, indiscriminate, one-sided criticism — an attempt, not to correct specific injustices, but to delegitimize our entire system. Snowden has just reminded us who is the beneficiary of this nihilistic self-criticism — the dictators and oppressors who use it to give themselves a free pass on answering for their crimes.
    http://thefederalist.com/2014/04/17/...-useful-idiot/
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  2. #2
    Senior Member btcave's Avatar

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    Snowden is in both camps. Hero and traitor. Only history will record if he had any impact on the toilet bowl we are swirling in.
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    Team GunsNet Silver 04/2014 El Jefe's Avatar

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    Quote Originally Posted by btcave View Post
    Snowden is in both camps. Hero and traitor. Only history will record if he had any impact on the toilet bowl we are swirling in.
    True, but I'm remaining in the pessimists camp. Him helping Puten with his propaganda doesn't impress me and really makes me wonder about his motivations.
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    Senior Member btcave's Avatar

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    I get it. Putin is consolidating power at home. Snowden is his tool.

    Snowden put it all on the line to out the bull shit in .gov.

    More than us keyboard commandoes have done.

    I bought body armor yesterday.
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    Team GunsNet Silver 04/2014 El Jefe's Avatar

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    Quote Originally Posted by btcave View Post
    I get it. Putin is consolidating power at home. Snowden is his tool.

    Snowden put it all on the line to out the bull shit in .gov.

    More than us keyboard commandoes have done.

    I bought body armor yesterday.
    While I agree with that, it gives me pause that many of the documents he gave the world could cause us problems and have unintended consequences.

    My wife thinks its crazy that I have a concealed carry permit and really thinks me owning an EBR is really out there. I can't imagine how she'd react to body armor.
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    The traitors are spying on us in direct violation of their oaths.

    The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.

    Yet our borders are wide open.
    "And how we burned in the camps later thinking, what would things have been like, if every security operative, when he went out at night to make an arrest, had been uncertain, whether he would return alive and had to say good-bye to his family?"

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    Senior Member btcave's Avatar

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    Trying to get on the no fly list, one post at a time.

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    Senior Member btcave's Avatar

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    Jefferson, you are nuts. Right up until you need it. God forbid...
    Trying to get on the no fly list, one post at a time.

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    Team GunsNet Silver 04/2014 El Jefe's Avatar

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    Quote Originally Posted by btcave View Post
    Jefferson, you are nuts. Right up until you need it. God forbid...
    True that.
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  10. #10
    Team GunsNet Silver 04/2014 El Jefe's Avatar

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    Quote Originally Posted by 5.56NATO View Post
    The traitors are spying on us in direct violation of their oaths.

    The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.

    Yet our borders are wide open.
    I agree with everything you've written in this post, but I'm still no fan of Snowden.
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  11. #11
    Contributor 02/2014 FunkyPertwee's Avatar

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    Quote Originally Posted by btcave View Post
    Steal is super heavy. Those plates you posted are 9 lbs each after the coating they put on. I can't imagine having to run and haul gear along with that. Might be good for use inside a vehicle or on my own property I guess. I ain't in top shape either though. But the price is right!

    I've been holding out to try and get the foam type level III, but the high price is making it impossible. $440 for a 2.9 lbs plate that floats:DKX Max III Armor Plate - 2.9LBS - Multi-Shot Rated - AND it FLOATS!
    "I'm fucking furious, I'm violently angry, and I like it. If you don't know what that feels like then I feel bad for you"

  12. #12
    Senior Member btcave's Avatar

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    I'm 6'2" and carried 2 each 7.5 pound SAPI plates in my body armor along with combat loads for years. I can hang. I like your link bro, just out of my price range right now.

    PS. My back, and the VA, is paying for the years of infantry and combat loads I humped along over the course of 21 years. So some day I might get what you posted here.
    Trying to get on the no fly list, one post at a time.

  13. #13
    Administrator Krupski's Avatar

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    Quote Originally Posted by btcave View Post
    Snowden is in both camps. Hero and traitor. Only history will record if he had any impact on the toilet bowl we are swirling in.
    If Snowden gave out any info that would harm the security of the US, I would call him a traitor. But, exposing the criminal activities of the government is heroic.

    Too bad private citizens can't commit crimes, then declare that information "classified" and get away with it.
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