On the question of whether US Military forces will fire on their own citizens.

[Kadmos]

Don't put so much stock in what is "lawful" or a "legal court order".

Just because a guy in a black robe (or a red robe) says something is legal......

...doesn't necessarily mean that it's constitutional or moral.....

Of course it doesn't mean it moral, fair, or just.

Only that it's "legal".

It may be unconstitutional, or not. But that's not a decision just anyone is qualified, or more accurately empowered, to make.

I don't remember the exact wording Love used, but it was something to the effect of "we don't decide law in the dirt". Meaning there is a time and place for such decisions to be made.

We've worked out a system for this, the court system. Yes, sometimes it fails. And yes sometimes submitting yourself to that system means you lose, and put your freedom, property, or even life itself, in jeopardy.

But the system works to prevent mob rule, and public violence. It allows for calm contemplation of the matter at hand, and a decision based on law, facts, evidence, and legitimate power.

Plus, the laws assist us in being able to make informed decisions. I haven't been keeping up with this particular mess, but part of the relevant part is that he was presented with a court order to get his cattle off that land. He may have felt or thought it was unconstitutional, blah blah blah, but he was warned, he was given legal documents, and he chose not to heed that warning. As a result the cattle were confiscated. Which I'm sure sucks and all, but you can't claim he wasn't warned by legal authority.

If he was unable (or simply didn't want to follow the order) to move the cattle, he should have gotten an order from the courts to stay the action while the matter could be reviewed. If the court denied that request, then he needed to move those cows...or likely watch as someone else did it for him. Which obviously happened.

Whether the court was right or wrong to tell him to move the cattle is almost irrelevant. He was handed lawful orders to move them. Perhaps in 10 years it might make it to the supreme court and they may find he had some sort of constitutional right, and he may be able to collect money from the government for the actions. But until that happens, he is supposed to follow the proper procedures and currently lawful orders.

[Krupski]

https://www.catholic.org/news/politi...y.php?id=32917

I think senility is setting in with her...

[Krupski]

Whether the court was right or wrong to tell him to move the cattle is almost irrelevant. He was handed lawful orders to move them. Perhaps in 10 years it might make it to the supreme court and they may find he had some sort of constitutional right, and he may be able to collect money from the government for the actions. But until that happens, he is supposed to follow the proper procedures and currently lawful orders.

So are you saying that ANYTHING is OK and should be obeyed and/or enforced as long as it's "lawfully court ordered"?

[TEN-32]

I saw him dressed like that speaking to the Bundy protestors on cell phone video the day the cows were released.

I find that a bit over the top.

[Kadmos]

So are you saying that ANYTHING is OK and should be obeyed and/or enforced as long as it's "lawfully court ordered"?

No, of course not.

There are things that are hugely wrong, and highly immoral that get codified into law. Making them legal doesn't make them "Ok".

But just as a government can go too far, individuals can go too far.

We've done this one before, but look at these sort of typical Militia compound standoffs. These folks tried to decide on their own what was "constitutional". In refusing entry to a legal search warrant, they typically create a standoff situation that ends badly.

Had they allowed the search, possibly nothing would be found, possibly no charges would follow. Possibly things would be found and that evidence would be thrown out in court because of a flawed warrant or constitutional issue. And possibly someone would lose custody of their kids or go to jail.

But it would all be settled calmly, in court, with everyone able to give evidence, and all those other rights that go with it.

But instead, these guys decide to hold hostages (usually their own families), threaten LEOs, scream and yell, and occasionally shoot at LEOs.

In which case, unless the LEOs are really lucky, odds are someone is going to get physically hurt, possibly killed.


Yes there is risk in submitting yourself to the authorities, but not every place is Nazi Germany, a lot of the folks from Waco ended up being set free, some with settlement money as well.

This is the tragedy, had they trusted in the system, and sorry to say, been a bit less paranoid or otherwise bat shit crazy, things would have been fine.

[5.56NATO]

Odd, i suddenly thought of Margret Sanger.

No idea why.

Hitler idolised Ms Sanger.

[Krupski]

(1) We've done this one before, but look at these sort of typical Militia compound standoffs. These folks tried to decide on their own what was "constitutional". In refusing entry to a legal search warrant, they typically create a standoff situation that ends badly.

Had they allowed the search, possibly nothing would be found, possibly no charges would follow. Possibly things would be found and that evidence would be thrown out in court because of a flawed warrant or constitutional issue. And possibly someone would lose custody of their kids or go to jail.

But it would all be settled calmly, in court, with everyone able to give evidence, and all those other rights that go with it.

But instead, these guys decide to hold hostages (usually their own families), threaten LEOs, scream and yell, and occasionally shoot at LEOs.

In which case, unless the LEOs are really lucky, odds are someone is going to get physically hurt, possibly killed.


(2) Yes there is risk in submitting yourself to the authorities, but not every place is Nazi Germany, a lot of the folks from Waco ended up being set free, some with settlement money as well.

This is the tragedy, had they trusted in the system, and sorry to say, been a bit less paranoid or otherwise bat shit crazy, things would have been fine.

(1) You're referring to Waco? You say "some folks ended up being set free"? Yeah, well some "folks" (including young children) got gassed, burned and crushed by the federal government. Despite the government coverup lies that you probably believe, the parents of the children at Waco did not shoot and kill their own kids. The feds killed them (and the assholes even shot each other in the confusion).

Maybe there was some "hanky-panky" going on at Waco, but whatever it was did not justify how the government murdered them and "magnanimously" set some of them free.

Oh, and please don't use the MSM tactic of calling private property a "compound". Where the Davidians lived was a home or a barn or a building or whatever, but calling it a "compound" is only designed to make it sound "evil" to the unwashed masses. Same goes for the term "bunker". Please.

Oh and another thing... I HATE, DESPISE the word "folks". I've never liked it. I've always thought it was a stupid word, and now that 0bama uses it to sound all "down-home" to the people on "main street", I despise it. Please.

(2) Nazi Germany wasn't Nazi Germany until it became Nazi Germany. That may sound like an idiotic statement, but it's true. The German government and the German people ALLOWED their government to slide into the depths of hell.

The whole nazi machine was run by a small handful of criminals. What's the difference between Hitler/Himmler/Goering/Hess and 0bama/Biden/Holder/Pelosi? The latter speak English.

Do you want the American people to continue to allow the illegal and immoral shit that's going on until we turn into another "Nazi Germany"?

The time to cleanse ourselves of Hitler is BEFORE he becomes "Der Fuhrer"...

[El Jefe]

Hitler idolised Ms Sanger.

So do the fuckface brothers here.

[Kadmos]

(1) You're referring to Waco? You say "some folks ended up being set free"? Yeah, well some "folks" (including young children) got gassed, burned and crushed by the federal government. Despite the government coverup lies that you probably believe, the parents of the children at Waco did not shoot and kill their own kids. The feds killed them (and the assholes even shot each other in the confusion).

I started off as talking about Waco, then decided to change it to militia compound (a term I'm not thrilled with either), because Waco gets a bit messy to discuss and always end up being too specific and gets off topic. But in other ways it does prove my point well, I just didn't want to go there, and I failed to fix enough of what I changed to hide the Waco aspect.

But yes, even in Waco, remember something like 2 dozen people just walked out early on. They weren't murdered, maybe they were detained slightly, but I'm not sure if those went to prison and were released and paid, or if that was others.

Anyway, point being, they got to use the courts correctly, and it basically turned out ok for them. The one's who stay inside and "try to decide law in the dirt" generally don't go so well.

Yes of course, Nazi Germany, we *could* all be loaded into trucks and taken to the death camps. But realistically....it's not so likely. People are likely much worse off trying to fight LEOs on the spot, then in the courts. People win in the courts pretty much every day, on the spot...pretty much never. Maybe you don't get arrested, I guess that's a "win". But in order to do that you've got to be decently behaved to some degree...not saying you have to kiss ass, or consent to whatever...but you can't punch a cop in the face and expect to just go on home after that.

Oh and another thing... I HATE, DESPISE the word "folks".

Sorry, in Missouri it doesn't have that same connotation unless some east coaster in a slick suit is saying it

I refer to people as folks all the time.

(2) Nazi Germany wasn't Nazi Germany until it became Nazi Germany. That may sound like an idiotic statement, but it's true. The German government and the German people ALLOWED their government to slide into the depths of hell.

I totally agree. It doesn't sound stupid at all. Any place has the potential to become just like that.

The problem is, since anyplace can, we need to not just recognize when a place is becoming that way, but when a place isn't. Yeah, there are a lot of little (OR BIG) signs that America might just be going in the wrong direction.

However, you can't just give up on the system completely and say "hell with it, I'm just going to do whatever I happen to think the constitution means, regardless of what some court says"

It's not that you would even necessarily be wrong, it's just that doing so is going to make you more likely to suffer the very real consequences.

In this case the guy thought the court was wrong, so he ignored them, and now has lost his cattle. Had he followed the correct procedure then he would still have his cattle, plus he would still have legal options.

Someone (It might even be this thread...lol) put a story on here of another guy in a similar situation, the government cut off the water from his livestock, he sued and got millions, plus got his grazing rights back.

[sevlex]

I just heard a guy call into Peter Boyles this morning claiming he knew the Bundy snipers on overwatch. He said they were "contractors" who went out there on their own. If push came to shove, they would open fire on.....the BLM.

Take it for what it's worth.

[Partisan1983]

Good read on Daniel Love...

http://sofrep.com/34874/objection-bl...pecial-forces/

[studmuffin]

More and more tidbits come out as to how frightening that standoff was.

It is starting to sound like vets were facing vets through mutual cross hairs..........scary


It also adds light to Harry Reid's furry. I had already counted the money in the bank. OOPS!

[Krupski]

More and more tidbits come out as to how frightening that standoff was.

It is starting to sound like vets were facing vets through mutual cross hairs..........scary


It also adds light to Harry Reid's furry. I had already counted the money in the bank. OOPS!

I've seen YouTube video that blames Harry Reid for the BLM/Bundy thing. Supposedly, Reid is working with the Chinese government to steal Bundy's land to give to the Chinese to build wind generator farms.......

[5.56NATO]

I've seen YouTube video that blames Harry Reid for the BLM/Bundy thing. Supposedly, Reid is working with the Chinese government to steal Bundy's land to give to the Chinese to build wind generator farms.......

Not only that his son allegedly works for a Chinese company that sells/operates the alternative energy stuff.

[1 Patriot-of-many]

No, of course not.

There are things that are hugely wrong, and highly immoral that get codified into law. Making them legal doesn't make them "Ok".

But just as a government can go too far, individuals can go too far.

We've done this one before, but look at these sort of typical Militia compound standoffs. These folks tried to decide on their own what was "constitutional". In refusing entry to a legal search warrant, they typically create a standoff situation that ends badly.

Had they allowed the search, possibly nothing would be found, possibly no charges would follow. Possibly things would be found and that evidence would be thrown out in court because of a flawed warrant or constitutional issue. And possibly someone would lose custody of their kids or go to jail.

But it would all be settled calmly, in court, with everyone able to give evidence, and all those other rights that go with it.

But instead, these guys decide to hold hostages (usually their own families), threaten LEOs, scream and yell, and occasionally shoot at LEOs.

In which case, unless the LEOs are really lucky, odds are someone is going to get physically hurt, possibly killed.


Yes there is risk in submitting yourself to the authorities, but not every place is Nazi Germany, a lot of the folks from Waco ended up being set free, some with settlement money as well.

This is the tragedy, had they trusted in the system, and sorry to say, been a bit less paranoid or otherwise bat shit crazy, things would have been fine.

I assume here you are refering to Waco, and you don't have any of your facts correct as usual. There's a reason the front door was "lost". Should re rehash Waco with facts again? I know you're a jackboot/jackboot lover but we can go again and put up facts vs your propaganda.

[Krupski]

Not only that his son allegedly works for a Chinese company that sells/operates the alternative energy stuff.

Yup.

Now will someone tell me how a US senator can conspire with a foreign communist country to use a federal agency to illegally assault American citizens, point guns at them, destroy their property and not end up in prison?

We need more than the "militia" protecting American citizens from the government.

We need to drag these politicians out of their offices and into prison, awaiting trial for treason.

[5.56NATO]

Yup.

Now will someone tell me how a US senator can conspire with a foreign communist country to use a federal agency to illegally assault American citizens, point guns at them, destroy their property and not end up in prison?

We need more than the "militia" protecting American citizens from the government.

We need to drag these politicians out of their offices and into prison, awaiting trial for treason.

If you disagree with fedz violating their oath and the constitution you must be a domestic terrorist!

[5.56NATO]

I assume here you are refering to Waco, and you don't have any of your facts correct as usual. There's a reason the front door was "lost". Should re rehash Waco with facts again? I know you're a jackboot/jackboot lover but we can go again and put up facts vs your propaganda.

I think the more fun term is bootlicker.







Speaking of wich where's durango and his side kick lately?

[Oswald Bastable]

I think the more fun term is bootlicker.

You do Herr Kadmos a disservice by underestimating his commitment. If this were the 1930s he'd be doing all he could for the chance to gobble Herr Goebbel's propaganda stream, and would gladly offer his services as a train conductor.

[Krupski]

If you disagree with fedz violating their oath and the constitution you must be a domestic terrorist!

I'm a white American Christian male who owns guns and believes that the US Constitution is the supreme law of our Country.

That is the very definition of "domestic terrorist". Guilty as charged, and proud of it.