Gunkote Questions - Please Help

[Makasaurus]

I'm an AK noob i am waiting on my WASR 10 AK waiting period ($420 before the DROS etc about $500 OTD). and cant pick it up for 2 days. Naturally i have a few plans for refinishing and want some input from the people who have lots more experience at this then i do. I have done a search and read almost everything on the matter, i have some questions still and now asking for everyone's collective wisdom, all comments are welcome!!!

I ordered some duracoat from midway, that has already shipped but changed my mind.
Everything i read says duracoat will not withstand strong solvents including brake cleaner and will ultimately get softened and washed off. (Is this true or not true?) I clean my guns by hosing them with with brake cleaner, And see no reason to change because it works like a charm on all my 5 other guns, it is cheap and effective. Any gun refinish that will not withstand any solvent is unacceptable to me, and i have visions of melted finish having to be touched up repeatedly. So i'm going to send the duracoat back soon as it gets here. I want to do it right and not do it over!

So i ordered an aerosal can of matte black gunkote from brownells for $37.

FURNITURE QUESTIONS - In the meantime i bought some 220 grit sandpaper. 0000 steel wool, and some stuff from Lowe's called Watco Danish oil finish in cherry, for the furniture. Do i have enough supplies to do the stock and forearm pieces or am i missing something?
I don't expect the furniture to be smooth like a piano case lol but i don't want it to look stupid or spotty either. is 220 grit a smooth enough finish? and does anyone think i need another protectant over the finish after it dries or is this finish adequate. Would tung oil be apropriate after a stain? (I'm not a big fan of linseed oil or poly finish based on what i have heard, sounds like tung oil or nothing but i'm open to ideas.)

GUNKOTE QUESTIONS:
I "visited" my gun at the gun store to get an idea how long the piece is going to be without the stock. I am not sure the gun is going to fit in the oven for the baking process. I have a feeling if the gun wont fit in the oven for baking i will leave it partially hanging out, cross my fingers and use a shet-load of aluminum foil to insulate! What does anyone think of this?

The stock is getting done on teusday as soon as i get the gun home. The gunkote will be getting done in a week or two. When i remove the stock i will also begin degreasing the works.

Ok hopefully no one is bored to death yet and is still reading, questions!

1. The top cover (receiver cover) appears to be blued. The rest of the gun seems to be parkerized.
Before painting I intend to scuff everything with 220 grit and/or 0000 steel wool and degrease, then bake for an hour to release all the hidden grease. Then clean with brake cleaner, then acetone.
Question, what temperature to bake at to ooze out the grease? And are there any parts i should remove so they won't get melted?

is the top cover (receiver cover) of the WASR blued or parked? I can't tell!
And if it is blued, how should i adjust my prep for that?

2. I do not want to disassemble the lower receiver but i will if people think this is a great idea and will improve the finished product. Otherwise I plan to cover the lower receiver parts with foil and shoot around them since the outside finish is what i am interested in. Should i strip the lower and gunkote the inside anyway?

3. I intend to gunkote the outer receiver, barrel, and the top cover. Some people use the gunkote on the piston rod and bolt and even some other internal parts. Is this a good or bad idea? If it is a good idea, which parts should i gunkote and what should i leave alone?

4. Baking. Brownells video says to heat the parts with a hair dryer, spray a very light dust coat , wait, repeat twice, put on final fourth cover coat and let it sit for 30 minutes at room temperature. Then bake it at between 300-305 degrees F. for one hour and then you are done.
Other people say that baking gunkote at up to 375 degrees F works fine and will only result in a slightly darker finish, which to me is fine. (Question, what color is darker then matte black?)

Feedback please!

[Schuetzenman]

You ask many questions but I will address the Gun Kote Q's in my reply. I have painted dozens of weapons with Gun Kote. None of it with a rattle can from Brownell's. I buy direct from KG Industries, usually in quart sizes. I use a single stage Pache Airbrush.

Gun Kote loves Parkerized finish as an base to stick to. If the metal is not Parked then it should be applied over a sand blasted surface that has been precoated with K-Phos, see link. http://www.kgcoatings.com/protective-coatings/4000-k-phos-pretreatment/ Also here is a link to Kg Coatings where you can read up on their many products.
http://www.kgcoatings.com/

Scuffing the metal with 220 grit will IMO make the weapon look like shit. A fresh parkerized weapon with no wear does not need anything but a good clean and degrease. Acetone purchased by the gallon is what I use and for the most part is what is recommended by KG. However and I give you this advise as well using your Brake Cleaner, you need to not breath this crap as it will give you liver cancer or other bad things in the long run. You need an Organic Vapor rated Respirator mask, the kind that have one or two big filter cartridges of activated charcoal on them. I got mine from either Lowe's or Home Depot. Both ran me in the mid $20 buck range. Next I use Chemical resistant gauntlent length gloves to keep that crap off my hands and arms. I also wear goggles to prevent splashes from getting to my eyes.

I use a clean 5 gallon plastic pail that can also be purchase from these places to wash off the weapon / weapon parts in. Nothing cleans like immersion in a half gallon of Acetone.

The top cover if blued and slick would be best to have sand blasted with 80 grit up to 120 grit aluminum oxide media. Failing that I'd just coat it with K-Phos and see how that worked for adhesion.

Heating parts with a blow dryer is slow and it sucks. I always preheated my parts in the oven at the lowest setting it will run at. Speaking of oven, you must have a small one if an AK won't fit in it. Usually you take out all but one rack and put that at the bottom. Then when it's time to put the barreled receiver in you gently place it in on a diagonal and let it lean up in the back corner to the front corner. If you get a hole in your finish doing this the first time, repaint that area and bake it again.

Baking temps, 1 hour at 320 °F is normal baking temp. Lower temps take longer to cure. Higher temps can discolor the finish. I have baked at 250 °F but to do that It takes 2.5 to 3 hours to cure the finish. I've done that for polymer stocks that melt at higher temperatures. Kun Kote is an awesome finish, it is resistant to all sorts of chemicals including acids. Your weapon can not rust unless you scratch your way through the finish. I use Satin Black teflon fomrula the 1600 series. Ack! I just looked at their web site and it says available in flat black only. WTF, it use to be available in all the colors. I wonder if a phone call to them can get them to run off a batch of Satin or find out if they might have any old stock sitting around. Satin black teflon in the 1600 is or was the Blackest black finish they made. It looks virtually identical to origianl Eastern European AK finishes. I had a Polish under-folder kit and it was a dead ringer for the look of the finish on the barrel under the handguards where there was no wear or scuffing on the finish.

On is it worth while to coat the inside of the receiver, bolt carrier, bolt, fire control parts ... hell yes! The Gun Kote is very thin, it won't interfear with function and the parts will now be rust proof. When I do a weapon I blast every part with the Aluminum Oxide in my blast cabinet. Next I wash off the dust with Acetone as described earlier for degreasing. When the Acetone is dry I then apply the coat of K-Phos. Small parts I put in a metal strainer that is normally a kitchen utensil to pour fluids through to strain out solids. I put the small parts in the strainer and then pour the K-phos over them. They all get coated this way and fast. I shake off the excess then put them out on a sheet of heavy aluminum foil to dry. Once everything is dry for 30 minutes I start heating them in the oven and then move on to the airbrushing of the Gun Kote. Kun Kote in it's liquid form is based on MEK solvent so it is highly flamable and very toxic if you breath it or get it on your flesh, don't is my advise. That's why I went over the safety gear earlier. I do this in my Garage with the door open to help clear out the fumes and I run a box fan to help push it out.

On finishes for stocks, I'm a satin Tung Oil guy. Boild Linseed oil takes for ever to dry, darkens with age, is not really water proof and can mold or mildew. None of the above for Tung Oil. That said, I have no idea if it can stand up to brake cleaner. I do know it doesn't show any signs of damage from Hoppe's, or Outer's bore cleaners.

[jojo]

If you're down on Gunkote then give John Norrels Molyresin a try. It is a thermally cured polymer finish that duplicates the finish on almost all military firearms is is very resistant to toxic chemicals, very forgiving, easy to apply and should you ever need to touch it up then it is very easy to do. All you need is a cheap Walmart air brush and a can of air. I've used Molyresin for years and have absolutely no complaints.

http://www.molyresin.com/

As a side note, I always remove all of the internals and coat everything but the axis pins for the trigger, hammer, springs and the gas piston.

[Schuetzenman]

If you're down on Gunkote then give John Norrels Molyresin a try. It is a thermally cured polymer finish that duplicates the finish on almost all military firearms is is very resistant to toxic chemicals, very forgiving, easy to apply and should you ever need to touch it up then it is very easy to do. All you need is a cheap Walmart air brush and a can of air. I've used Molyresin for years and have absolutely no complaints.

http://www.molyresin.com/

As a side note, I always remove all of the internals and coat everything but the axis pins for the trigger, hammer, springs and the gas piston.

Used Molyresin and Gun Kote. Molyresin didn't seem half as good as Gun Kote. At one time folks said it was Blacker than Gun Kote, might of been true 8 years ago, not anymore. Gun Kote has always worn better too in my findings. I over painted a weapon with Gun Kote to fix a less than tough Molyresin finish. Never had to touch the weapon again with finish. I've read rave reviews of the Norell stuff for years and it just hasn't ever panned out to be the equal of Gun Kote in my experience.

[Makasaurus]

If you're down on Gunkote then give John Norrels Molyresin a try. It is a thermally cured polymer finish that duplicates the finish on almost all military firearms is is very resistant to toxic chemicals, very forgiving, easy to apply and should you ever need to touch it up then it is very easy to do. All you need is a cheap Walmart air brush and a can of air. I've used Molyresin for years and have absolutely no complaints.

http://www.molyresin.com/

As a side note, I always remove all of the internals and coat everything but the axis pins for the trigger, hammer, springs and the gas piston.

it's too late the order's gone through! So NOW you tell me ha ha. :crying: Maybe my next Ak although this might be the first and last. thanks for the tip...i guess waiting for the gunkote to ship i'll have time to figure out how to take apart the lower!

[Makasaurus]

You ask many questions but I will address the Gun Kote Q's in my reply. I have painted dozens of weapons with Gun Kote. None of it with a rattle can from Brownell's. I buy direct from KG Industries, usually in quart sizes. I use a single stage Pache Airbrush.

Gun Kote loves Parkerized finish as an base to stick to. If the metal is not Parked then it should be applied over a sand blasted surface that has been precoated with K-Phos, see link. http://www.kgcoatings.com/protective-coatings/4000-k-phos-pretreatment/ Also here is a link to Kg Coatings where you can read up on their many products.
http://www.kgcoatings.com/

Scuffing the metal with 220 grit will IMO make the weapon look like shit. A fresh parkerized weapon with no wear does not need anything but a good clean and degrease. Acetone purchased by the gallon is what I use and for the most part is what is recommended by KG. However and I give you this advise as well using your Brake Cleaner, you need to not breath this crap as it will give you liver cancer or other bad things in the long run. You need an Organic Vapor rated Respirator mask, the kind that have one or two big filter cartridges of activated charcoal on them. I got mine from either Lowe's or Home Depot. Both ran me in the mid $20 buck range. Next I use Chemical resistant gauntlent length gloves to keep that crap off my hands and arms. I also wear goggles to prevent splashes from getting to my eyes.

I use a clean 5 gallon plastic pail that can also be purchase from these places to wash off the weapon / weapon parts in. Nothing cleans like immersion in a half gallon of Acetone.

The top cover if blued and slick would be best to have sand blasted with 80 grit up to 120 grit aluminum oxide media. Failing that I'd just coat it with K-Phos and see how that worked for adhesion.

Heating parts with a blow dryer is slow and it sucks. I always preheated my parts in the oven at the lowest setting it will run at. Speaking of oven, you must have a small one if an AK won't fit in it. Usually you take out all but one rack and put that at the bottom. Then when it's time to put the barreled receiver in you gently place it in on a diagonal and let it lean up in the back corner to the front corner. If you get a hole in your finish doing this the first time, repaint that area and bake it again.

Baking temps, 1 hour at 320 °F is normal baking temp. Lower temps take longer to cure. Higher temps can discolor the finish. I have baked at 250 °F but to do that It takes 2.5 to 3 hours to cure the finish. I've done that for polymer stocks that melt at higher temperatures. Kun Kote is an awesome finish, it is resistant to all sorts of chemicals including acids. Your weapon can not rust unless you scratch your way through the finish. I use Satin Black teflon fomrula the 1600 series. Ack! I just looked at their web site and it says available in flat black only. WTF, it use to be available in all the colors. I wonder if a phone call to them can get them to run off a batch of Satin or find out if they might have any old stock sitting around. Satin black teflon in the 1600 is or was the Blackest black finish they made. It looks virtually identical to origianl Eastern European AK finishes. I had a Polish under-folder kit and it was a dead ringer for the look of the finish on the barrel under the handguards where there was no wear or scuffing on the finish.

On is it worth while to coat the inside of the receiver, bolt carrier, bolt, fire control parts ... hell yes! The Gun Kote is very thin, it won't interfear with function and the parts will now be rust proof. When I do a weapon I blast every part with the Aluminum Oxide in my blast cabinet. Next I wash off the dust with Acetone as described earlier for degreasing. When the Acetone is dry I then apply the coat of K-Phos. Small parts I put in a metal strainer that is normally a kitchen utensil to pour fluids through to strain out solids. I put the small parts in the strainer and then pour the K-phos over them. They all get coated this way and fast. I shake off the excess then put them out on a sheet of heavy aluminum foil to dry. Once everything is dry for 30 minutes I start heating them in the oven and then move on to the airbrushing of the Gun Kote. Kun Kote in it's liquid form is based on MEK solvent so it is highly flamable and very toxic if you breath it or get it on your flesh, don't is my advise. That's why I went over the safety gear earlier. I do this in my Garage with the door open to help clear out the fumes and I run a box fan to help push it out.

On finishes for stocks, I'm a satin Tung Oil guy. Boild Linseed oil takes for ever to dry, darkens with age, is not really water proof and can mold or mildew. None of the above for Tung Oil. That said, I have no idea if it can stand up to brake cleaner. I do know it doesn't show any signs of damage from Hoppe's, or Outer's bore cleaners.

thanks very much for the tips! i was going to use a paper mask from work...i guess my lungs are worth $20! For my spray booth i am using my shower lined with plastic sheet...i guess i really really need to go and buy the mask!
Yes the oven is small, when i visited my gun i measured it with my arm then measured the oven. The oven is electric. It seems like it will barely fit If the bottom rack is removed. i suppose i can just swap ends at the 30 minute mark and bake 15 minutes longer.
I am wondering how much Midwayusa is going to ding me for sending back product but i want to do this once, period.

35 years ago i used a mail order product called MG coat (rattle can) on my first gun, a remington nylon 66. This product is not around anymore, at least by that name. It cost me $6 mail order. I removed the barrel and stamped receiver cover to paint them, cleaned everything up with some sort of solvent (whatever my dad had lying around at the time), sprayed and baked. I was living at home at the time and the product was so clean Momma never suspected a thing. Almost no fumes or anything. It came out flawless and so tough it would have taken a grinder to scratch it. No solvent used including Hoppe's made the least impression on it either. The gun is still at my parent's house, i haven't seen the rifle in 30 years so it may have rusted to junk by now. I have no interest in .22 rimfire rifle or i would have got it back by now. Although my next purchase may be a semi auto 22 pistol. I live in So Kalifornia and shooting is time consuming and expensive so when i shoot, i am only interested in large caliber. I do collect precious metals, otherwise known as ammo - did i mention i live in Kalifornia.

Guns so far: glock 26, bersa 380, ruger P85. Stag ar (the DI model forget the model name). I keep buying guns and ammo because the laws never stop coming in the PRK, and no idea if the gun i see in the store will even be available next week! The ammo restriction law that Arnie signed got suspended for later passage early this year and has not come into effect (fingerprinting and only 50 rounds per purchase) but it's a safe guess they will push it through eventually, the only question is when. Counting the months until i can leave this state, if you are reading this and thinking about moving to California for some reason, don't.

I thought about gunkoting the Stag but the finish is so good it's not worth the bother. it appears to be solvent proof, probably parked i suppose, and touch ups i do with the gun store paint pen, after 1000 rounds its perfectly fine. The AK on the other hand appears to have been gently handled by the non human primates employed by Century arms (its a single stack, will only take the 10 rounders which are hard to find but may convert it later) but there are scratches aplenty all over it.

[Schuetzenman]

For starters AR rifle receivers are aluminum, can't rust anyway. THey are hard anodized and then a dry film lubricante / teflon finish is put over that to darken the metal. There's a milspec number for the finish and no I'm not going to look it up. :laugh:

Methel Ethyl Ketone ... MEK solvent is some bad shit, you definitely don't want to breathe it or get it on your skin. You using a rattle can, the get it on your skin part is of low risk. I use the stuff in liquid form and load an airbrush bottle with it, so I do spill a bit every now and then.

You sound like you live in an apartment or you have a car port and no garage I gather. If your bath room has an outside vent discharge then I would turn it on to help suck the fumes out of the room. No smoking while painting, no open flames either unless you're a bit of a dare devil.

Any black finish that has Moly in it won't be super black as Moly is a dark silvery gray material. That's why I like the Teflon Satin Black as it is very black and is IMO one of the most durable finishes KG ever put out. Flat black looks good until it get's rubbed a bit. It shines up from any metla to metal rubbing on it. Think saftey selector on the AK as it is moved from safe to fire position.

[Makasaurus]

I was thinking of prying out the safety a couple mm to delay the half moon wear pattern that is already there on a brand new rifle. Would there be safety problems with doing this?
i don't have any access to sandblast except at work, and the gun is never going anywhere near there for obvious reasons. My coworkers are good as they get and don't dislike them much, but bringing large recognizable gun parts to work, no no NO! I made an AR front grip removal tool from 3 feet of threaded rod bent to a V and padded with rubber hose. i got the rod someplace, gosh i forget where. It works, pretty much, but i wish i'd spent the $11 bucks for the proper tool.

Thanks to everyone's good advice i am going to guncote it as soon as it ships and when i have two days off. I live in a 550 sq ft apt and it is dubious of doing any of this outside, the dime-droppers would freak out. I have a small porch i never use but if i time it right i might be able to spray it out there with a bit of cardboard and no one the wiser.
I intend to post pics of everything before and after, thanks again for collective wisdom.