Justice Department in a panic over coming hearings

[O.S.O.K.]

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2011/06/09/justice-officials-in-panic-mode-as-new-testimony-is-expected-to-reveal-depth/

It would be nice to see bam bam impeached or Holder forced to resign over this.

But we know how the lefstream media will handle this - a few stories and then bury it deep. :mad:

[ATAK, Inc.]

The obama administrations rug is getting awefully lumpy from all the dirt swept under it!

I'm not going to hold my breath for justice to prevail, but am hopeful that it does and that POS holder goes away!

[Justin]

If George Bush was the President, this would be as big as Iran-Contra.

[O.S.O.K.]

The obama administrations rug is getting awefully lumpy from all the dirt swept under it!

I'm not going to hold my breath for justice to prevail, but am hopeful that it does and that POS holder goes away!

Was that an intentional pun? Justice to prevail? :lool:

[O.S.O.K.]

If George Bush was the President, this would be as big as Iran-Contra.

No, it would be three times as big as Iran-Contra!

[Kadmos]

This is the same Lone wolf gun shop that was in the news for a rather long time about how they were selling guns that got across the border.

Kinda sounds like they caught the owner, flipped him and had him working for them in order not to get charged.

I really don't get why they couldn't manage a fairly simple sting.

They know who bought them, they put in tracking devices, watch the guns go south, get the Mexican police involved and then put the guy in a Mexican prison for however long.

Obviously not quite that simple, but not really that complicated either.

It's like they said "well we can't nail him on the straw buy here, so lets watch him do it again and again until we come up with a new game plan"

Stupid.

[Doc Glockster]

The obama administrations rug is getting awefully lumpy from all the dirt swept under it!

I'm not going to hold my breath for justice to prevail, but am hopeful that it does and that POS holder goes away!

This is the age of the internet. The important people (the American public) are becoming more and more well-informed every day.

Whether or not heads roll, the truth is already out there and they can't sweep that under the rug.

[(AK)1000shots]

The obama administrations rug is getting awefully lumpy from all the dirt swept under it!

It's not just the Obama administration sweeping things under the rug. It's pretty much every administration and high-level elected official.

I wasn't a fan of Bush, nor of Clinton. I'm definitely not a fan of Obama. Both parties are corrupt to the roots, seizing power for power's sake, and doing nothing to improve the conditions of the United States.

[ATAK, Inc.]

Was that an intentional pun? Justice to prevail? :lool:

Yeah, when I thought of it, I thought, "how ironic"!


This is the age of the internet. The important people (the American public) are becoming more and more well-informed every day.

Whether or not heads roll, the truth is already out there and they can't sweep that under the rug.


I used to be an optimist, but a corrupt admin is capable of lots of evil.

[Krupski]

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2011/06/09/justice-officials-in-panic-mode-as-new-testimony-is-expected-to-reveal-depth/

It would be nice to see bam bam impeached or Holder forced to resign over this.

But we know how the lefstream media will handle this - a few stories and then bury it deep. :mad:

Someone will be the scapegoat. Obongo will come out of it clean as a whistle.

[old Grump]

It will end up being the gunshop owners fault and the whistle blowers will be blowing their whistles in Adak. Everybody else gets a raise and a promotion.

Who's cynical, not me.

[O.S.O.K.]

As Kadmos points out, it should have been very simple to follow the guns. But, they didn't...

One doesn't need a tin foil hat to suspect the obvious - that they really wanted to create a "gun problem" that would inspire new legislation or regulation.

What's really stupid is how they could believe that this wouldn't be exposed. Though, look what the bam bam administration has gotten away with so far! Not a far stretch to say that they thought it would be swept under the rug - yes.

[Partisan1983]

We all know it's inevitable.....


At some point they will ban 'em all, it's just a matter of when....

[Ruskiegunlover]

and then what? At what point when you are bveing disarmed will people stand up?

[O.S.O.K.]

I've maintained for a long time that people will act when the pain starts - just pick your pain.... like in Florida and now Alabama. Florida is making welfare recipients take drug tests to get their payments and Alabama is requiring students to prove citizenship in order to attend school!!!

About fucking time for both of these things - we need them in all states - but it only came after the pain started.

The revolt will start AFTER the bans are passed and confiscation starts.

That's just the way it is.

Fortunately, the house is in pro-gun control. I think that will block any severe bans or confiscation, etc. from being put into effect.

[davepool]

This is the same Lone wolf gun shop that was in the news for a rather long time about how they were selling guns that got across the border.

Kinda sounds like they caught the owner, flipped him and had him working for them in order not to get charged.

I really don't get why they couldn't manage a fairly simple sting.

They know who bought them, they put in tracking devices, watch the guns go south, get the Mexican police involved and then put the guy in a Mexican prison for however long.

Obviously not quite that simple, but not really that complicated either.

It's like they said "well we can't nail him on the straw buy here, so lets watch him do it again and again until we come up with a new game plan"

Stupid.

Not how it happened at all. I know those guys, i've bought several guns from them over the years, their shop is about 5 miles from my house. They have been in business a long time, nothing shady going on at all, at least on their part. There are parts to this story that are not being reported and never will.

As far as the news reports you read about them, all i can say is consider the source before coming to conclusions.

The unscrupulous people in this fiasco WERE NOT the arizona gun dealers

[Kadmos]

Not how it happened at all. I know those guys, i've bought several guns from them over the years, their shop is about 5 miles from my house. They have been in business a long time, nothing shady going on at all, at least on their part. There are parts to this story that are not being reported and never will.

As far as the news reports you read about them, all i can say is consider the source before coming to conclusions.

The unscrupulous people in this fiasco WERE NOT the arizona gun dealers

Sorry man, but even in a best case scenario the gunshop knowingly sold to straw buyers.

Sure you can say they "had permission" but isn't that also another way of saying they worked with the ATF and spied on their own customers, setting some of them up?

There are only 3 possible reasons why the gunshop was involved.
1. they got flipped by the Feds
2. greed, simply didn't care so long as they were selling
3. honestly wanted to stop the illegal trafficking of guns

If, big IF, it was number 3 then they basically trashed their own reputation, knowingly broke the law, just so happened to make some nice huge sales, and got an "in" with the ATF.

Sorry man, the gov did a bad thing, but so did this gun shop.

If I owned a gun shop there is no way in hell I would set up stings on my own customers.

Sure I would comply with the ATF on the requirements, but I'm not going out of my way to help them, just so they can set up busts to puff themselves up and that everyone knows ends with a headline like "Straw purchases arming Cartels" which is likely to lead to more legislation. Hell NO. Fuck them!

[Schuetzenman]

I hope this sticks to so many Obama admin folks including O-bumbler himself. We need an Impeachment that goes the full distance to removal from office and incarceration.

[Warthogg]

It's not just the Obama administration sweeping things under the rug. It's pretty much every administration and high-level elected official.

I wasn't a fan of Bush, nor of Clinton. I'm definitely not a fan of Obama. Both parties are corrupt to the roots, seizing power for power's sake, and doing nothing to improve the conditions of the United States.

THIS I agree with....all of the above.


Wart

[Oswald Bastable]

There are only 3 possible reasons why the gunshop was involved.
1. they got flipped by the Feds
2. greed, simply didn't care so long as they were selling
3. honestly wanted to stop the illegal trafficking of guns


I'll give you a fourth. BATFAGs said you will cooperate with our sting or we will crawl up your ass with a microscope, find every dotted i and crossed t missed and make sure you never sell another gun.

[Warthogg]

Assistant Attorney General Ronald Weich


Ronald is likely the sacrifice to be. Holder was not even in the world when this happened. Holder and Barry were inspecting satellites........in outer space....prolly.


Wart

[Kadmos]

I'll give you a fourth. BATFAGs said you will cooperate with our sting or we will crawl up your ass with a microscope, find every dotted i and crossed t missed and make sure you never sell another gun.

That's what I meant with number 1.


Even in that case, sorry but I would have to say "Fine have a look at my paperwork, but no I'm not helping"

Think about this.

You go to your gunshop and they have a great price on Romanian AK's, your a tad worried about Obama and co, you have some extra cash so you say "I'll take 5 of them"

They sell them to you with the proper paperwork

Then...they call the ATF and say "We think Kadmos is a gun runner, he bought 5 with these serial numbers, go ahead and activate the trackers in them"

Umm....WTF!!

Is there ANY possible circumstance where you just laugh it off and go back to that shop to buy more stuff.

Sorry Dave, but if I had a single gun I bought from them I'd be trying to figure out right this second if it has a tracking device in it!

[Warthogg]

......if I had a single gun I bought from them I'd be trying to figure out right this second if it has a tracking device in it!

And assuming it did have a tracking device.


Wart

[Oswald Bastable]

That's what I meant with number 1.


Even in that case, sorry but I would have to say "Fine have a look at my paperwork, but no I'm not helping"


You apparently don't know how the ATF works in cases like this. They'll close you down because you allowed an abbreviation of state name on the form, rather than having it spelled out. Or because Dr. should have been St. on an address, or because it should have been spelled out rather than abbreviated, or that if it was abbreviated, it should have had a period and didn't.

That's the way they work when they have a hard on for a gun shop. And no gun shop that's been in business for many years can survive that kind of scrutiny. So basically your stating the owner had a choice between go out of business and lose his livelihood, or cooperate. Perhaps you would say "have a look at my paperwork" and feel just fine about being put out of business, but that's rather scary for some who've only known one business for 20, 30 years. Remember, we're talking about an organization here (ATF) who'll claim an entire shipment of demilled mg kits are perfectly fine to sell one day, then a few months down the road claim they're unregistered mgs that weren't properly demilled and shut places down for selling them to customers, and also demand all customers turn them in with no compensation. We're not talking about an upstanding example of gov't. honesty and fairness here.

[Kadmos]

And assuming it did have a tracking device.


Wart

Hell yes.

I don't even think in good conscious I could sell them to another person! It would either have to be sell them back to Lone Wolf or destroy them altogether.

Oswald, I get it, it's tough going up against the ATF, but you either dig your heels in and fight or you say fuck it and sell frozen yogurt or some shit.

Unless I was looking at serious jail time on a set up charge I wouldn't even begin to consider the idea of putting trackers in my guns and calling the ATF on my own customers.

[weevil]

"A high-powered sniper rifle was used to shoot down a Mexican military helicopter."




Krupski and his .22 again!


:biggrina:

[davepool]

That's what I meant with number 1.


Even in that case, sorry but I would have to say "Fine have a look at my paperwork, but no I'm not helping"

Think about this.

You go to your gunshop and they have a great price on Romanian AK's, your a tad worried about Obama and co, you have some extra cash so you say "I'll take 5 of them"

They sell them to you with the proper paperwork

Then...they call the ATF and say "We think Kadmos is a gun runner, he bought 5 with these serial numbers, go ahead and activate the trackers in them"

Umm....WTF!!

Is there ANY possible circumstance where you just laugh it off and go back to that shop to buy more stuff.

Sorry Dave, but if I had a single gun I bought from them I'd be trying to figure out right this second if it has a tracking device in it!

Well as long as we're making assumptions based on limited knowledge and projecting our opinoins of other people based on what WE would do, lets assume that these guys are honest,moral businessmen who were told to do something they were philosophically opposed to. Lets assume that instead of fear or greed, their motivation to cooperate was anger. Anger at an out of control, morally bankrupt,politically motivated bureaucracy, and they saw this as an opportunity to bring this group of thugs down. Lets assume that they are connected people, retired military,law enforcement, and through those connections there might be a way to expose the bullshit they were being told cooperate with. Of course these are all assumptions based on my limited knowledge and projections of what I would do in the same situation.

BTW i removed all of the tracking devices from the guns i bought as soon as i got them home( i put one of them on the car of the dope dealer who lives down the street from me), and when i tried to buy two pistols at the same time, i was told that that they would have to make a multiple gun purchase report, and it would be better if they put the second pistol in the back and i return the next day to buy it.

[Kadmos]

Well as long as we're making assumptions based on limited knowledge and projecting our opinoins of other people based on what WE would do, lets assume that these guys are honest,moral businessmen who were told to do something they were philosophically opposed to.

Ok, lets assume that.

Easy, you say NO.

Because if you are an honest, moral businessmen, asked to do something you are philosophically opposed to, then that is what you say.




Lets assume that instead of fear or greed, their motivation to cooperate was anger.

Anger? Ok angry at those damn straw buyers?

Here is how you handle the anger you have for the straw buyers, you tell them NO, I won't sell to you!


Anger at an out of control, morally bankrupt,politically motivated bureaucracy,

Oh, now I see, angry at the ATF.

Now it totally makes sense, I am so angry with someone well the only thing to do is help them do something shitty!

"Gosh I hate pedophiles..to show how much I hate them I will give them Ice Cream trucks and directions to local playgrounds!"

That totally makes sense now!


and they saw this as an opportunity to bring this group of thugs down.

Ahh, the plan was to make themselves look bad, make the gov look bad, make the ATF look bad, make gun buyers look bad, make people think we need more gun legislation and expose them all by becoming a part in the plan.

So, not just dicks, but also really really dumb.


Lets assume that they are connected people, retired military,law enforcement,

Ok, makes a bit more sense, they are narcs

I kinda already knew that, it's party of what pissed me off.


and through those connections there might be a way to expose the bullshit they were being told cooperate with.

Um..letter to the NRA?

Blog about it?

Hand out flyers informing people of the issue?

or

Participate in a sting to rat out, spy on, and track your own customers?

Yeah, I'm going with not doing that last one


Of course these are all assumptions based on my limited knowledge and projections of what I would do in the same situation.

If you would do the same, then I hate to say this but...you kinda suck.

Sorry.


BTW i removed all of the tracking devices from the guns i bought as soon as i got them home( i put one of them on the car of the dope dealer who lives down the street from me), and when i tried to buy two pistols at the same time, i was told that that they would have to make a multiple gun purchase report, and it would be better if they put the second pistol in the back and i return the next day to buy it.

You seriously knowingly bought a gun with a tracking device?

And then knowing it was linked to your gun, your identity, and the ATF...you placed the tracking device with a drug dealer?!?

So basically you connected yourself to a drug dealer and government agents...

Really?!?





I am so not one of the "government is out to get me" people, but right now being on the same board as you is kinda creepy

[Oswald Bastable]

Because if you are an honest, moral businessmen, asked to do something you are philosophically opposed to, then that is what you say.


And this describes how many small businessmen in America, struggling under burdensome federal, state and local regulations, attempting to make some kind of living for their families where they can survive, maybe prosper, maybe send their kids to college, maybe have a retirement, given they're given few to none of the breaks given large corps?

There is an estimate the we each break at least three laws a day, without knowing we've broken them. That's how burdensome the regulatory system has become. Wake up and smell the coffee. People do what they have to do to keep their small businesses alive, and when it comes to gov't demands that they play ball or go belly up, they play ball...pay that extra tax their accountants didn't account for, pay that fine because they didn't know about that fed, state, local regulation, take down that sign because it's too big or sticks out too far, adds a wheelchair ramp at their own expense to assure that once a year customer has easy access. The dot gov. has forced small businessmen to either play ball or go out of business. They don't have the financial resources to fight this kind of shit in court, the system has assured that unless they have the pockets of a Rockefeller they will be buried before it ever goes to trial.

I'm happy you can live in a wonderful plasticine world where ethics trump reality, but that's what it is, a plasticine world. In the real world, small businessmen make compromises that they abhor to continue to stay afloat and feed their families. And given the political, PC climate of the last 15 to 20 years, gun shops, FFLs are under particular fire. When the ATF descends upon you, you have two choices. Submit or quit. It's nice that you can so cavalierly say you'd quit, but then, that's not your source of income, is it? And you have no horse in that race.


Participate in a sting to rat out, spy on, and track your own customers?

Yeah, I'm going with not doing that last one

You do realize the buyers they were told to continue selling to were those already suspected of arms trafficing, selling guns to the cartels, making straw purchases...people the stores would have already told to take a hike without the ATF's demands...do you not?

[Kadmos]

Oswald, I get it, it's tough out there for the small business owner.

If you are willing to roll over and do whatever you can to help yourself out while screwing over your customers and gun owners in general, then I suppose you have the right to do that.

But I still retain the right to call you a total douchbag for doing so.

Let's do a hypothetical

You walk into gun store "A", lets call it Larry's guns. And the guy says "Man the ATF is coming down on us hard, going through all our paperwork, and had us shut down for 2 days looking at it, and now they say they will be watching us closely" "Yeah, we're complying with everything that we have to do, but it looks like we will need to hire a lawyer to get them off our backs"

Then you go to gun store "B", lets call it Lone Wolf. And the guy says "Man the ATF is coming down on us hard, going through all our paperwork, and threatening to us shut down" "But don't worry because we have allowed them to put tracking devices in our guns, asked us to go ahead and break the law by making straw sales easily, and we will be calling the ATF to give them the info on gun buyers, oh and also the straw bought guns will likely be going to Mexican drug cartels which will use them to shoot at US law enforcement and citizens"

Which would you buy from?

Me, I'd be happy to buy from Larry's, even if it costs a bit more than Cabelas, because he is willing to try to keep inside the law, and fight the good fight. I will even tell my buddies to shop there and give them the story

As for Lone Wolf, FUCK THEM!

But yeah, I'd tell my buddies about them also

I'm all for sticking up for the little guy, but if he's trying to fuck me then fuck him!

[1 Patriot-of-many]

This is the same Lone wolf gun shop that was in the news for a rather long time about how they were selling guns that got across the border.

Kinda sounds like they caught the owner, flipped him and had him working for them in order not to get charged.

I really don't get why they couldn't manage a fairly simple sting.

They know who bought them, they put in tracking devices, watch the guns go south, get the Mexican police involved and then put the guy in a Mexican prison for however long.

Obviously not quite that simple, but not really that complicated either.

It's like they said "well we can't nail him on the straw buy here, so lets watch him do it again and again until we come up with a new game plan"

Stupid.

That wasn't the point of the operation. The point is to capture a bunch of US guns to scream and cry about how we need more gun laws in the US. I bet this goes all the way up to the fake president himself. At least up to his right hand Holder. Holder better watch out or he'll land in federal prison ignoring Congress. (assuming here the R's actually are growing a set.)

[Oswald Bastable]

Oswald, I get it, it's tough out there for the small business owner.

If you are willing to roll over and do whatever you can to help yourself out while screwing over your customers and gun owners in general, then I suppose you have the right to do that.

But I still retain the right to call you a total douchbag for doing so.

Let's do a hypothetical

You walk into gun store "A", lets call it Larry's guns. And the guy says "Man the ATF is coming down on us hard, going through all our paperwork, and had us shut down for 2 days looking at it, and now they say they will be watching us closely" "Yeah, we're complying with everything that we have to do, but it looks like we will need to hire a lawyer to get them off our backs"

Then you go to gun store "B", lets call it Lone Wolf. And the guy says "Man the ATF is coming down on us hard, going through all our paperwork, and threatening to us shut down" "But don't worry because we have allowed them to put tracking devices in our guns, asked us to go ahead and break the law by making straw sales easily, and we will be calling the ATF to give them the info on gun buyers, oh and also the straw bought guns will likely be going to Mexican drug cartels which will use them to shoot at US law enforcement and citizens"

Which would you buy from?

Me, I'd be happy to buy from Larry's, even if it costs a bit more than Cabelas, because he is willing to try to keep inside the law, and fight the good fight. I will even tell my buddies to shop there and give them the story

As for Lone Wolf, FUCK THEM!

But yeah, I'd tell my buddies about them also

I'm all for sticking up for the little guy, but if he's trying to fuck me then fuck him!

You must have missed this part...?


You do realize the buyers they were told to continue selling to were those already suspected of arms trafficing, selling guns to the cartels, making straw purchases...people the stores would have already told to take a hike without the ATF's demands...do you not?

[davepool]

You seriously knowingly bought a gun with a tracking device?

And then knowing it was linked to your gun, your identity, and the ATF...you placed the tracking device with a drug dealer?!?

So basically you connected yourself to a drug dealer and government agents...

Really?!?





I am so not one of the "government is out to get me" people, but right now being on the same board as you is kinda creepy




Damn, you're easy... now where did i put that sarcasim smiley.....let me go find it, i'll be right back.

The only guns that may have had tracking devices on them were guns they were directed to sell to known straw purchasers by the ATF, and the devices were more than likely installed by the ATF, not the gun shop.

In case you missed it, i live 5 miles from this shop and have known them for almost 20 years, they are not the evil bastards you are trying to make them seem.
They are located on the west side of Phoenix, an area of the city that has large enclaves of our friendly,patriotic neighbors from south of the border( darn.WHERE is that sarcasim smiley). I have been in their shop when they have turned away buyers...one guy who speaks broken english interpreting for two guys who speak no english and asking all the questions.

But you know more about this than i do, so rant on.

[Kadmos]

That wasn't the point of the operation. The point is to capture a bunch of US guns to scream and cry about how we need more gun laws in the US. I bet this goes all the way up to the fake president himself. At least up to his right hand Holder. Holder better watch out or he'll land in federal prison ignoring Congress. (assuming here the R's actually are growing a set.)

That's my opinion also.

It may go all the way up to the President, who knows.

But it also goes all the way down to a gun shop that said "Sure, why not"



You do realize the buyers they were told to continue selling to were those already suspected of arms trafficing, selling guns to the cartels, making straw purchases...people the stores would have already told to take a hike without the ATF's demands...do you not?

Are you sure? Absolutely sure? So sure that you would want to buy an AK from them that may or may not have a tracking device? Where the store may or may not call the ATF and tell them you might be a suspect in their trafficking?

Even if you are right and the guns tagged were only the ones the ATF suspected to be bought by straw buyers, do you have 100% faith that the ATF was right in suspecting these people.

Essentially you are saying that anyone a store suspects might be a straw buyer should be be tracked by the government.



The only guns that may have had tracking devices on them were guns they were directed to sell to known straw purchasers by the ATF, and the devices were more than likely installed by the ATF, not the gun shop.


Oh that's fine then, no reason a gun shop shouldn't allow the ATF to put tracking devices in it's guns, make straw sells of guns that will likely end up with Mexican drug cartels, so the ATF can get the glory, expand it's budget, and congress can rail against the current gun laws. Because there is no way congress would ever try to institute a law limiting the amount of guns a person could buy within a certain time frame.

Where is that sarcasm smiley?


In case you missed it, i live 5 miles from this shop and have known them for almost 20 years, they are not the evil bastards you are trying to make them seem.

Not evil bastards, just dicks who cooperated way above and beyond what was necessary with the ATF, were willing to have or put tracking devices on their guns for the ATF and spy on their own customers while making a mint selling to obvious straw buys as well, and not really caring where the chips landed for gun owners at large.

But I get it, you like them, so whatever.

I prefer gun dealers who stand up for their customers, obey the law and do right by gun owners




They are located on the west side of Phoenix, an area of the city that has large enclaves of our friendly,patriotic neighbors from south of the border( darn.WHERE is that sarcasim smiley). I have been in their shop when they have turned away buyers...one guy who speaks broken english interpreting for two guys who speak no english and asking all the questions.

So noble of them!

[Oswald Bastable]

Are you sure? Absolutely sure?

And are you so sure that isn't the way it was? Absolutely sure? Sure enough to impugn a long running business and an owner you know nothing of?

[1 Patriot-of-many]

And are you so sure that isn't the way it was? Absolutely sure? Sure enough to impugn a long running business and an owner you know nothing of?

Of course, after all the ATF's long track record of open transparent honesty is not at question.

[Kadmos]

And are you so sure that isn't the way it was? Absolutely sure? Sure enough to impugn a long running business and an owner you know nothing of?

I have no problem with impugning the business in this case.

Even if he was 100% certain that the guns were being bought by straw buyers, then his best course of action is to still NOT sell to them.

He is required to hand the paperwork to the ATF if they ask, that's fine by me, what happens to the suspected straw buyer after that is an ATF issue, not a gun shop issue. And the ATF can take it to court with whatever evidence they can get without any more of his help.

But this guy knowingly sold tagged guns to suspected straw buyers on behalf of the ATF, with what had to be the full knowledge that no possible outcome of this could be good for gun owners or gun rights.

Would you be cool with the idea of the ATF handing you cash at a gun show and saying "go make some straw purchases so we can bust dealers"?

After all you know it's a straw purchase.

If you are cool with this stuff, well I suppose that's your business, but there is no way in hell I would buy from that place.

[weevil]

That wasn't the point of the operation. The point is to capture a bunch of US guns to scream and cry about how we need more gun laws in the US. I bet this goes all the way up to the fake president himself. At least up to his right hand Holder. Holder better watch out or he'll land in federal prison ignoring Congress. (assuming here the R's actually are growing a set.)




BINGO!


Holder will probably be the one who gets thrown under the bus but I guarantee you something like this didn't go down without the approval of the prez.

But of course he'll deny any knowledge of it.

[Oswald Bastable]

He is required to hand the paperwork to the ATF if they ask, that's fine by me, what happens to the suspected straw buyer after that is an ATF issue, not a gun shop issue. And the ATF can take it to court with whatever evidence they can get without any more of his help.

He is supposed to turn away any suspected straw purchaser without selling them a gun, and from all reports that is what he was doing before ATF intervention. So what do you suspect the ATF promised, or perhaps threatened, to get him to go along with their little plan?


But this guy knowingly sold tagged guns to suspected straw buyers on behalf of the ATF, with what had to be the full knowledge that no possible outcome of this could be good for gun owners or gun rights.

Again, from all reports, he only started selling such guns after ATF intervention. Again, one has to ask oneself what sort of pressure was brought to bear? You know, to make a dealer who (purportedly...and I suspect it's not just purported, otherwise the ATF would have shut him down years ago) did all he could to avoid selling to straw purchasers, suddenly agree to sell hundreds of guns to known straw purchasers


Would you be cool with the idea of the ATF handing you cash at a gun show and saying "go make some straw purchases so we can bust dealers"?

After all you know it's a straw purchase.

If you are cool with this stuff, well I suppose that's your business, but there is no way in hell I would buy from that place.

Well let's see...

First off, I'm not an FFL running a gun shop, am I? So it appears this argument starts with a straw man fallacy. So let's run with the straw in this man, see if we can spin it into some gold. But since we're talking both straw men and straw purchases, let's make the straw man you. You've just walked into the lobby of the center holding the gun show, you haven't even paid your entry fee yet, and a nice (but stern) man demands to speak with you privately, takes you aside into an office, presents his ATF credentials, demands your ID, address, etc. He tells you he's going to give you a wad of cash and he expects you to go into the gun show and try every ploy you can to buy a gun from a legit dealer without a background check. He then explains in no uncertain terms how fellow agents are on their way to your home to plant an unregistered mg, with others (who've identified your car via your DL and cross-referenced with state vehicle registration records) are currently seeking out your car in the parking lot, and will be planting several live grenades (apparently hidden) beneath your spare tire. If you refuse to cooperate you will be found to be in possession of destructive devices, an unregistered machine gun, charged with domestic terrorism, sequestered without a lawyer (under the Patriot Act) have your assets seized and generally make this the worst day of your life.

I mean, if we're going to go straw, let's go all out.

You telling me you'd puff your chest out, say "no way I'll do any such thing" and take your pleasant stay in a federal prison until such time as they decide they might want to bring you to trial?

[Kadmos]

He is supposed to turn away any suspected straw purchaser without selling them a gun, and from all reports that is what he was doing before ATF intervention. So what do you suspect the ATF promised, or perhaps threatened, to get him to go along with their little plan?



Again, from all reports, he only started selling such guns after ATF intervention. Again, one has to ask oneself what sort of pressure was brought to bear? You know, to make a dealer who (purportedly...and I suspect it's not just purported, otherwise the ATF would have shut him down years ago) did all he could to avoid selling to straw purchasers, suddenly agree to sell hundreds of guns to known straw purchasers



Well let's see...

First off, I'm not an FFL running a gun shop, am I? So it appears this argument starts with a straw man fallacy. So let's run with the straw in this man, see if we can spin it into some gold. But since we're talking both straw men and straw purchases, let's make the straw man you. You've just walked into the lobby of the center holding the gun show, you haven't even paid your entry fee yet, and a nice (but stern) man demands to speak with you privately, takes you aside into an office, presents his ATF credentials, demands your ID, address, etc. He tells you he's going to give you a wad of cash and he expects you to go into the gun show and try every ploy you can to buy a gun from a legit dealer without a background check. He then explains in no uncertain terms how fellow agents are on their way to your home to plant an unregistered mg, with others (who've identified your car via your DL and cross-referenced with state vehicle registration records) are currently seeking out your car in the parking lot, and will be planting several live grenades (apparently hidden) beneath your spare tire. If you refuse to cooperate you will be found to be in possession of destructive devices, an unregistered machine gun, charged with domestic terrorism, sequestered without a lawyer (under the Patriot Act) have your assets seized and generally make this the worst day of your life.

I mean, if we're going to go straw, let's go all out.

You telling me you'd puff your chest out, say "no way I'll do any such thing" and take your pleasant stay in a federal prison until such time as they decide they might want to bring you to trial?

I said it before


There are only 3 possible reasons why the gunshop was involved.
1. they got flipped by the Feds
2. greed, simply didn't care so long as they were selling
3. honestly wanted to stop the illegal trafficking of guns


Maybe you have it right, maybe the gun shop did 0% wrong before the ATF came, then the ATF 100% set up the dealer, absolutely forced him to do it.

I still wouldn't buy from the guy. If nothing else the guy is weak and I wouldn't trust him.

But mostly because I would never for a second believe the guy did 0% wrong and had zero other options.

Plus it works to his best interest in a way that absolutely does not work to ours. The guy obviously made tons of sales that he wouldn't have made otherwise, so obviously he had finical motives. He gets an "in" with the ATF and does it at the expense of his customers.

Sorry, but I think what our government did was shitty, and what the gun shop did was also shitty.

The really sad thing is I expect better from a gunshop, but this seems about par for the course for the government.

[Oswald Bastable]

Maybe you have it right, maybe the gun shop did 0% wrong before the ATF came...

And therein lies the rub. There is no such thing as a gun shop that's done 0% wrong in the eyes of the ATF.

[Kadmos]

And therein lies the rub. There is no such thing as a gun shop that's done 0% wrong in the eyes of the ATF.

Which is kind of a typical LE attitude to some degree. And yeah, it runs deep over at the ATF.

But knowing this, gun dealers have a choice. If they can't handle doing the right thing for their customers, and what's right for gun owners, then they ought to switch to selling frozen yogurt or something else.

[O.S.O.K.]

I'm not sure about this but if the BATFE instructs you in writting to do something in an investigation, I think you pretty much have to do it or face charges of interfiering with the investigation?

The gun shop is not responsible or even morally liable for this - its the BATFE using its considerable power to direct the investigation.

Perhaps you are willing to fall under the bus or even want to but we can't fault the gun shop for following specific instructions in an investigation. I am sure that their lawyers told them the danger of not doing so...

Regardless, it's the BATFE that's on the hot plate over this - and deservedly so. And their boss is the POTUS - via the AG. That's the bottom line and what this thread is about.

[Kadmos]

I'm not sure about this but if the BATFE instructs you in writting to do something in an investigation, I think you pretty much have to do it or face charges of interfiering with the investigation?

No. You are not subject to being randomly drafted as an ATF agent.

Interfering with an investigation means getting in the way of it, it does not mean they can just grab people and force them into an active role in investigations.


The gun shop is not responsible or even morally liable for this - its the BATFE using its considerable power to direct the investigation.

Everyone is morally liable for their own actions, except maybe small children


Perhaps you are willing to fall under the bus or even want to but we can't fault the gun shop for following specific instructions in an investigation. I am sure that their lawyers told them the danger of not doing so...

Maybe they were leveraged into doing it, that is a possibility. More than likely if they were leveraged into it than it was because they did something wrong already.

But seriously, you are never required by law to be an agent of the police or other LEO's.


Regardless, it's the BATFE that's on the hot plate over this - and deservedly so. And their boss is the POTUS - via the AG. That's the bottom line and what this thread is about.

Absolutely. The ATF royally boned the canine on this. Seems to me also that the entire plan was essentially ridiclous and blame for such a stupid plan should go as high up the food chain as it possibly can.

But I still ain't buying from that shop. Not that it was real likely before, it is kinda a long drive, but still, not gonna happen.

[Oswald Bastable]

Which is kind of a typical LE attitude to some degree. And yeah, it runs deep over at the ATF.

But knowing this, gun dealers have a choice. If they can't handle doing the right thing for their customers, and what's right for gun owners, then they ought to switch to selling frozen yogurt or something else.

Effectively ending the 2nd amendment without altering the constitution. Isn't that a wonderful catch 22.

[Kadmos]

Effectively ending the 2nd amendment without altering the constitution. Isn't that a wonderful catch 22.

On the other hand it also leaves us with dealers who are willing to stand up for our rights and do the right thing.

I generally don't like losing dealers for any reason, but if they are going to fuck us over without a fight, then I don't mind so much.

Seems to me there are plenty of dealers who aren't shilling for the ATF

[Oswald Bastable]

On the other hand it also leaves us with dealers who are willing to stand up for our rights and do the right thing.

I generally don't like losing dealers for any reason, but if they are going to fuck us over without a fight, then I don't mind so much.

Seems to me there are plenty of dealers who aren't shilling for the ATF

Perhaps you support the ATF using loopholes, coercion, subversion, technicalities that would be thrown out of any regular court, lies, distortions, etc., to close down gun dealers...that is certainly your prerogative. Personally, I don't.

[Kadmos]

Perhaps you support the ATF using loopholes, coercion, subversion, technicalities that would be thrown out of any regular court, lies, distortions, etc., to close down gun dealers...that is certainly your prerogative. Personally, I don't.

Of course I don't either.

But, the gun dealers also have rights, they have courts they can avail themselves of, some gunshops have been able to get courts to give them cease and desist orders against the ATF.

Just rolling over and taking it isn't the solution, it's just going to have the ATF further up their asses, and gun shops doing even more ridiculous shit.

[Oswald Bastable]

Of course I don't either.

But, the gun dealers also have rights, they have courts they can avail themselves of, some gunshops have been able to get courts to give them cease and desist orders against the ATF.

Just rolling over and taking it isn't the solution, it's just going to have the ATF further up their asses, and gun shops doing even more ridiculous shit.

Given you've as much knowledge of this situation as I do (perhaps less since you seem to discount the widespread knowledge that it was only targeted straw purchasers who were sold guns in this fashion) you've given the ATF a pretty clean bill of health and pretty much laid the entire onus on the gun shop owner to have behaved in Christlike fashion, potentially sacrificing his business to stand up to an organization with unlimited taxpayer (or federal printing press) funds. You're rather myopic about fighting city hall, particularly when it comes to federal organizations with a mandate from a hierarchy dedicated to socialist rule. Very myopic indeed. And rather overweening in your judgment.

[Kadmos]

Given you've as much knowledge of this situation as I do (perhaps less since you seem to discount the widespread knowledge that it was only targeted straw purchasers who were sold guns in this fashion) you've given the ATF a pretty clean bill of health and pretty much laid the entire onus on the gun shop owner to have behaved in Christlike fashion, potentially sacrificing his business to stand up to an organization with unlimited taxpayer (or federal printing press) funds. You're rather myopic about fighting city hall, particularly when it comes to federal organizations with a mandate from a hierarchy dedicated to socialist rule. Very myopic indeed. And rather overweening in your judgment.

That is crap, I said the ATF was in the wrong, that the government was in the wrong, that the whole thing was a stupid idea.

This does not mean that the gun shop had no culpability in it though.

You say it was "only targeting straw purchasers", but the reality is it was at best "only targeting suspected straw purchasers", and at worst tagging guns going to people who they didn't think were straw purchasers, possibly receiving money from the ATF for doing this whole thing, knowingly making straw sales, and on some level knowing that this whole thing is really bad for gun ownership and gun rights.

I'm not trying to imbibe them with Christlike qualities, I'm simply expecting that my gun dealer is not shilling for the ATF, possibly setting me up on stings, tagging my guns and calling the ATF to give them info that the shop is not required to give.

I've already said I don't know for sure what the motives were.

Maybe they were essentially forced by the ATF

Or maybe they took cash from the ATF and were happy as hell to do it.

Personally I think they very likely had other options.

Either way, I wouldn't buy from them.

If you want to, that's your business.

[O.S.O.K.]

You say the gunshop is culpable for it's part in this? I say that strictly speaking you may be right but you are asking a small business owner to sacrifice not only his livelyhood but also his freedom (they would arrsest him on some trumped up charge) to "do the right thing".

Would you do the right thing?

Seriously, quit hammering on the gun shop - they are victims in this thing.

The problem that we need to get together on is that the government - in this case, the BATFE is overstepping it's mandate - WAY overstepping it.

IMHO, the very existence of the "F" in their acronym is overstepping.

[El Laton Caliente]

No. You are not subject to being randomly drafted as an ATF agent.

Interfering with an investigation means getting in the way of it, it does not mean they can just grab people and force them into an active role in investigations.


Ask Randy Weaver how well that worked out for him...

[davepool]

SETTING THE RECORD STRAIGHT ON FOXNEWS, BATFE, AND PROJECT GUNRUNNER

Many viewers love Fox News, it's reporting is generally accurate and as they advertise, fair and balanced. However, a recent article on "Project Gunrunner" and “Project Fast and Furious” had a quote from J&G Sales and the article intimated that the government had monitoring cameras installed and GPS devices planted in the stocks of rifles. We want this to be very clear to all of our customers. At no time did we install special cameras at BATFE request. And we have never installed or used GPS tracking units in any way, and we have never been asked to do either of these things by the BATFE or any other government agency.

As responsible business owners and members of the firearms community, we have expressed concern about certain transactions to the BATFE. But rest assured, we only report the data that we and every other firearms dealer is legally obligated to do under the law.

“Project Gunrunner”, or “Project Gunwalker” as it has been nicknamed, was an operation in which the BATFE told some FFL dealers to sell guns to individuals under investigation even though the FFL dealers were uncomfortable doing so. These firearms were then watched by the BATFE as they went to Mexico. The latest article on the hearing regarding this BATFE scandal can be read here: http://goo.gl/fU7VC

The President of J&G Sales did provide a single interview to Fox News in early March 2011 to help clarify some aspects of what was going on. Fox News and other news outlets continue to use quotes from that single interview, often wrongly implying that J&G Sales was one of the FFL dealers in Phoenix, AZ that were involved in the above mentioned activities regarding cameras and GPS units while assisting the BATFE.

Currently, we at J&G Sales are cooperating with Sen. Grassley (R-IA) and Rep. Issa (R-CA) in their congressional investigations into the BATFE and Dept. of Justice. We hope they are able to bring everything to light that was occurring with these government departments.

We thank all our customers for your support

[Oswald Bastable]

Ask Randy Weaver how well that worked out for him...

Hmmm...crickets...from the 'holier than thou' delegation.

[stinker]

Originally Posted by Kadmos

No. You are not subject to being randomly drafted as an ATF agent.

Interfering with an investigation means getting in the way of it, it does not mean they can just grab people and force them into an active role in investigations.

I'll do something rare for me and make an unbreakable argument without a long winded rant and use only two words.

Permitting process.