Local Range raided by ATF

[Richard Simmons]

Knew this was coming for a while.

http://www.wdbj7.com/news/wdbj7-atf-raids-pss-gun-range-in-roanoke-20110610,0,1781013.story

My source told me the ATF had been in the store/range since February or March and had pulled their FFL but was allowing the firing range to continue operations. From what I've been told they had felons working in the store as well as preforming armed guard services. Got a call when I got home tonight and was told about the raid and and that part of the reason was that they also were/had been making firearms sales out the back door.

They hooked everyone up today so no one would be able to easily tell who the informants were. Probably some undercover as well.

If they broke the law I guess they get what's coming to them. My question is how do you run a gun store and not only hire ex-felons to work the counter but give them a gun and hire them out as security? Did they not even do background checks on their employees?

[O.S.O.K.]

I'm not really surprised at this. I've been to some ranges that I never went back to.

The owner of this got what he deserved for being a dumbshit.

[dfariswheel]

This is one of those cases where you get a dazed look on your face and just shake your head.

WHY someone with the amount of money it takes to build a gun store and range would do stupid, insane things like hire convicted criminals, I can't fathom.

All I can guess is the owners were themselves uncaught criminals and were running a criminal operation, making money under the table.

[btcave]

Smart enough to run a business, but can't keep within the law? Easy laws to understand, you know?

[ltorlo64]

Looks like there might be a business opportunity soon. Might be able to pick it up for a song.

[1 Patriot-of-many]

Frankly considering the ATF's past actions, I wouldn't believe a word they said or the hack media that parrots whatever they want them to say.

[Warthogg]

Frankly considering the ATF's past actions, I wouldn't believe a word they said or the hack media that parrots whatever they want them to say.

Yes, that's exactly where we should start.....believing nothing as yet. That bidness has some name......maybe 'presumption of innocence' ??

At this point all the media is doing is printing ATF press releases.




Wart

[Warthogg]

Looks like there might be a business opportunity soon. Might be able to pick it up for a song.

Hmmmmm maybe I'll offer Stranglers in the Night by Crank Sinatra. Never did like that song.


Wart

[skorpion]

Looks like there might be a business opportunity soon. Might be able to pick it up for a song.
A similar thing happened to a gun shop/indoor shooting range near me. Crooked workers doing crooked things got the place shut down. Now it's a darn window sales/installation business. What a waste of a good range! The same thing will probably happen to the place in Richard's link. Some random other business will take over, but hopefully that's not the case. Gun ranges are already hard enough to come by.

[Smitty258]

I heard about that from some people at work Richard. It should be interesting going forward since we do all of our training and requalifications there!

Good thing I just got mine done last month!

ETA:

You mentioned that their FFL had been pulled since Feb/March? The shop looked like it was still in business when I was there in early May. Who knows???

[Richard Simmons]

I heard about that from some people at work Richard. It should be interesting going forward since we do all of our training and requalifications there!

Good thing I just got mine done last month!

ETA:

You mentioned that their FFL had been pulled since Feb/March? The shop looked like it was still in business when I was there in early May. Who knows???

From what I heard ATF was investigating at least that far back as February. IIRC they told them to cease all FFL sales and transfers in May. Could have been late April. They could still operate the range, not sure if they could still do gun rentals or not. Word I got awhile back was that all inventory was seized/frozen and that ATF was going to have an auction. Don't know if by auction they mean the actual property, the firearms, kitchen sink? I knew you guys did you quals there. Some of the local PDs might as well. Brinks probably does too. I still find it hard to believe the owner knowingly employed ex-felons considering the number of LEO and Guard folks that he dealt with. There has to be more to it than just not bothering to check them out.

You know, now that I think about it I heard they pulled their FFL the same week I posted on here about buying guns at a "Buy Back" cause the same guy me about both the thing at PSS and that Martinsville was doing that buy back. That was on 5/17 so they must have pulled it a few days before that.

[Helen Keller]

bout as dumb as the guy up here about 3 years ago that was using his C&R to get cheap guns and sell them at bars for a premium.

[romak10/63UF]

This could be another plot to help take away our gun rights... do yall not see this ? the ATF is the Knight IN Shinning Armor in the story but do they have proof of these illegal actions selling guns out the back door ? Felons Running the Show .. LMAO :laugh:

[dannyr]

Richard Simmons, Moderator, you should feel great shame from the statements you have made. Most of the subject matter has been pulled from someone's vivid imagination, or perhaps you have a personal vendetta with PSS Range, And Training, Inc., of Roanoke, Virginia.

I shall try to set the record straight. I've been a part time employee there for over a year, and have been associated with them since they purchased the facility from On Target and the Tully family. Before I retired, I managed a string of shopping centers and used PSS Armed and Unarmed Security in Roanoke, Salem, Covington and Martinsville during the years 1992 through 2005 and was 100% satisfied with the services rendered. In my part time work there, I never noticed any signs of irregularity or unlawful practices.

First of all, the BATF did conduct a raid that Friday. That is a fact. Due to information confirmed that morning, the FFL License of PSS has been suspended--no more, no less.

PSS Range and Training own all the firearms in inventory. They have not been confiscated, nor will they be auctioned. They are locked in the massive company gun safes.

PS Range & Training was not selling guns out the back door. Had that been the case, the facility would have been shut down and many arrests made.

PSS Range and Training reopened the very next day, business as usual except for the sale of firearms. They still rent pistols for range use, hold all their classes, including the DCJS (Virginia Department of Justice Services) unarmed and armed security classes, and their security force is intact. Bullseye, Virginia Modified PPC and GSSF (Glock) matches are still held on a regular basis.

By the way, Armed and Unarmed security companies doing business in the Commonwealth of Virginia are regulated by the DCJS and not the BATF.

All Unarmed and Armed PSS Security Officers have the appropriate DCJS License, and DCJS does the background investigation. PSS does not provide firearms to it's employees. Armed security officers must purchase them through normal channels, just like civilians.

They do have a convicted felon on their payroll, a man who has paid his price to society 10 years ago and is now an outstanding citizen, husband and father. As I understand the events, his mistake was small, helping out behind the counter on range pistol rentals. Still, black is black and white is white when it comes to firearm laws.

Richard, libelous statements like yours have caused great harm to PSS Range & Training, it's owners and it's staff. I suggest you offer a public apology.

[1 Patriot-of-many]

Richard Simmons, Moderator, you should feel great shame from the statements you have made. Most of the subject matter has been pulled from someone's vivid imagination, or perhaps you have a personal vendetta with PSS Range, And Training, Inc., of Roanoke, Virginia.

I shall try to set the record straight. I've been a part time employee there for over a year, and have been associated with them since they purchased the facility from On Target and the Tully family. Before I retired, I managed a string of shopping centers and used PSS Armed and Unarmed Security in Roanoke, Salem, Covington and Martinsville during the years 1992 through 2005 and was 100% satisfied with the services rendered. In my part time work there, I never noticed any signs of irregularity or unlawful practices.

First of all, the BATF did conduct a raid that Friday. That is a fact. Due to information confirmed that morning, the FFL License of PSS has been suspended--no more, no less.

PSS Range and Training own all the firearms in inventory. They have not been confiscated, nor will they be auctioned. They are locked in the massive company gun safes.

PS Range & Training was not selling guns out the back door. Had that been the case, the facility would have been shut down and many arrests made.

PSS Range and Training reopened the very next day, business as usual except for the sale of firearms. They still rent pistols for range use, hold all their classes, including the DCJS (Virginia Department of Justice Services) unarmed and armed security classes, and their security force is intact. Bullseye, Virginia Modified PPC and GSSF (Glock) matches are still held on a regular basis.

By the way, Armed and Unarmed security companies doing business in the Commonwealth of Virginia are regulated by the DCJS and not the BATF.

All Unarmed and Armed PSS Security Officers have the appropriate DCJS License, and DCJS does the background investigation. PSS does not provide firearms to it's employees. Armed security officers must purchase them through normal channels, just like civilians.

They do have a convicted felon on their payroll, a man who has paid his price to society 10 years ago and is now an outstanding citizen, husband and father. As I understand the events, his mistake was small, helping out behind the counter on range pistol rentals. Still, black is black and white is white when it comes to firearm laws.

Richard, libelous statements like yours have caused great harm to PSS Range & Training, it's owners and it's staff. I suggest you offer a public apology.

Well I guess the truth will come out eventually if gov't agents aren't allowed to write the story.

[mriddick]

Interesting point and counterpoint, I will say after being involved in 2 shops it actually seems to take quite a lot to get a "raid" by the BATF. Inspections are common, but an actual raid seems to take something out of the ordinary. Paperwork errors might get you dinked and shutdown in time but I've never heard of a raid over something like simple paperwork errors. If dannyr works for PSS then he ought to know why they were raided, he seemed to wrote a lengthy introduction for himself and a nice review of PSS but really said less then the ubershort news article richard linked.

At this point everyone agrees PSS was raided and the FFL suspended, until there's really more information everything past is conjecture.

[Richard Simmons]

Richard Simmons, Moderator, you should feel great shame from the statements you have made. Most of the subject matter has been pulled from someone's vivid imagination, or perhaps you have a personal vendetta with PSS Range, And Training, Inc., of Roanoke, Virginia.

I shall try to set the record straight. I've been a part time employee there for over a year, and have been associated with them since they purchased the facility from On Target and the Tully family. Before I retired, I managed a string of shopping centers and used PSS Armed and Unarmed Security in Roanoke, Salem, Covington and Martinsville during the years 1992 through 2005 and was 100% satisfied with the services rendered. In my part time work there, I never noticed any signs of irregularity or unlawful practices.

First of all, the BATF did conduct a raid that Friday. That is a fact. Due to information confirmed that morning, the FFL License of PSS has been suspended--no more, no less.

PSS Range and Training own all the firearms in inventory. They have not been confiscated, nor will they be auctioned. They are locked in the massive company gun safes.

PS Range & Training was not selling guns out the back door. Had that been the case, the facility would have been shut down and many arrests made.

PSS Range and Training reopened the very next day, business as usual except for the sale of firearms. They still rent pistols for range use, hold all their classes, including the DCJS (Virginia Department of Justice Services) unarmed and armed security classes, and their security force is intact. Bullseye, Virginia Modified PPC and GSSF (Glock) matches are still held on a regular basis.

By the way, Armed and Unarmed security companies doing business in the Commonwealth of Virginia are regulated by the DCJS and not the BATF.

All Unarmed and Armed PSS Security Officers have the appropriate DCJS License, and DCJS does the background investigation. PSS does not provide firearms to it's employees. Armed security officers must purchase them through normal channels, just like civilians.

They do have a convicted felon on their payroll, a man who has paid his price to society 10 years ago and is now an outstanding citizen, husband and father. As I understand the events, his mistake was small, helping out behind the counter on range pistol rentals. Still, black is black and white is white when it comes to firearm laws.

Richard, libelous statements like yours have caused great harm to PSS Range & Training, it's owners and it's staff. I suggest you offer a public apology.

Good morning "Coach". I said they were raided and that they had a felon working there. You confirmed that. I said that the range was still open but no firearms sales were taking place, again you confirmed that. I stated that I was told they had felons doing security work which is something I was told more than once if that is not the case then I apologize. If there were no back door transactions, as I was told then again I apologize.

[dannyr]

Richard,

I shall present your apology to the owners tomorrow. Most of the down time that Friday was spent taking inventory of all firearms, storing and locking away all "for sale" firearms and then moving empty showcases back into the storage room and finally rearranging the remaining showcases. The newspaper and TV reporting of the event as a "Raid" is journalistic sensationalism, intended to sound like a BATF Swat Team from Hell parachuted in bearing AR-16's. It is my understanding that the owners may, and will, reapply for a FFL license in the near future.

The internet is a perfect venue for starting Cyberspace Hysteria. I've been fighting it in my own forums on Glocktalk since 1999.

Thanks again for your apology.
-Danny Ryan

[O.S.O.K.]

Nobody here is a fan of the ATF. "Peacemaker" is long gone!

But I have to say, employing a felon at a range is not very smart. This is a perfect example of "why not to". The man should seek employment at a hardware store or something neutral...

But if that's the only infraction, I don't see why they would be shut down. That's certainly not nearly as bad as the things I've witnessed in the past (no, I will not go into details about those things...)

ATF is know to be staffed with some JBT's no doubt. Many that I've been exposed to are just normal folks doing their job but the few JBT's that they do have on staff really stick out and can do a lot of damage.

Hopefully this will blow-by after the range owner's lawyers get this sorted out.

And if I were the range owner, I would amend my contract with any private security company to include a bonding of their employees or some further guarantee that they are qualfied (ie, no felons or domestic violence background, etc.).

[Schuetzenman]

Richard,

I shall present your apology to the owners tomorrow. Most of the down time that Friday was spent taking inventory of all firearms, storing and locking away all "for sale" firearms and then moving empty showcases back into the storage room and finally rearranging the remaining showcases. The newspaper and TV reporting of the event as a "Raid" is journalistic sensationalism, intended to sound like a BATF Swat Team from Hell parachuted in bearing AR-16's. It is my understanding that the owners may, and will, reapply for a FFL license in the near future.

The internet is a perfect venue for starting Cyberspace Hysteria. I've been fighting it in my own forums on Glocktalk since 1999.

Thanks again for your apology.
-Danny Ryan

So if they didn't do anything wrong why the hell did BATFE pull the license?

[blacksheep]

The BATFE is a criminal organization and should be de-funded.:thumbsdown:

[imanaknut]

Please help me understand this, Mr. Ryan, and I am not trying to start anything, just want to get everything straight in my mind.

You worked there until 2005 and no doubt stayed friendly with them in the last 6 years so you would know why ATF "raided". I personally cannot understand why ATF would pull an FFL over even a black and white item as employing someone who was released after serving time 10 years ago, and that was the store's only offense?

Again, just want to make sure I understand because I hate seeing anybody lose a license over something as petty as this. Playing the side of the store owners, I am sure there was really no way for them to know the person had a record unless he confessed upon hiring, which seems unlikely that he would, or they did not do a background check on him which also is not normal even for a "gun shop".

I truly hope the owners get their paper back as not only can we not afford to lose even one outlet for firearms, but because lives are at stake due to potential loss of income, and that really rubs me wrong.

Thanks again Mr. Ryan for speaking up and for joining the site to give your side of the story! :thumbsup:

[Krupski]

If they broke the law I guess they get what's coming to them.

What irony. "Fast and Furious BATFE" enforcing gun laws! :yeah:

Mexicans Demanding Extradition Of ATF Officials Over Project Gunwalker (http://onlygunsandmoney.blogspot.com/2011/07/mexicans-demanding-extradition-of-atf.html)<--- that's a linky

[imanaknut]

Actually if ATF enforced the law, we would have the right to keep and bear arms that was not infringed, and my "PS90s" would be "P90s"!!!!!!!!!!!

[tank_monkey]

Richard Simmons did nothing wrong, and he doesn't have to be ashamed of ANYTHING. Though I am sympathetic to any business being harassed by any government entity, we don't know the full story, and RS only relayed what he knew to be true.

I for one don't appreciate someone attacking Richard Simmons for what he wrote. He did NOT have to apologize, he was just forwarding information as he knew it.

Don't know about you guys, but this Ryan fellow rubbed me the WRONG WAY. :pissed:

[rshaneck2002]

Their track record isnt exactly stellar to say the least., they seem to bungle alot of stuff and we had better wait 3 mo to hear the real story come out.

[Richard Simmons]

I do appreciate the support Tank Monkey and while I don't necessarily believe I libeled anyone after looking back at my posts I do feel I engaged in gossip at the very least which really isn't of benefit to anyone.

Some of what I was told and posted such as convicted felons working there and the ranges FFL being pulled are evidently true so maybe those things make the jump from gossip to fact on their own.

As far as any illegal activity or personnel issues those really can't be substantiated though I've found numerous posts on several forums expanding on those two items as well as a variety of other supposed facts/rumors/gossip, etc.

If DannyR wishes to add anything to his previous posts that is his perogative though I guess like my posts or anyone elses there's no way to know what's fact or fiction til something official comes out and even will we really get the entire story?

Moving forward if I see something in the paper or other "independent source" that provides any further details I'll link to that or reference that source in any posts.