turk questions

[hogmister]

The so called "turkish" mauser is one usually dubbed an M-38 right? usually a re-barreled rifle, done around 1938? anyone feel free to thrash me on my ignorance or inaccuracies. got a story like this when i bought mine. not sure the actual background. thanks.

[Schuetzenman]

There are many models of Turkish Mausers, the 1938 is the but one of them. It will be a large ring Mauser action. These rifles were originally 1903 models chambered in 7.65 x 53, but when the consensus on caliber swung to the 7.92 x 57 a.k.a 8 mm Mauser, the Automan Empire (Persians then becoming Turks) had the Mauser Werks rebarrel their older weapons to the 8 mm chambering.

The Tuks and the Germans were linked for many decades by trade in small arms. The Turks loved German Mauser rifles and purchased all their military weapons from the German Mauser brothers / company. The Turks did so much business with the Germans that the Mauer company built a stand alone factory called "the Turkish Building" of course. The purpose was to be "THE" factory to supply Turkey's needs for military rifles. Even after WWII the Turks continued to purchase arms from Germany, (old habbits are hard to break). When the Germans ditched the G1, the Turks bought them and deployed them to their troops. Eventualy they even purchased G3 rifles for the Turkis Army.

[hogmister]

thanks Schuetzenman. so i was close. mine is a large ring 98 in 7.92x57. the action has the ANKARA markings on it. on the bottom of the stock in front of the reciever is marked 7 M M. the reciever and bottom metal numbers match but the bolt which looks almost brand new doesn't. would that have been changed when they were rebarreled or could it be a newer replacement? everything was packed with grease when i bought it and i stripped the bolt to clean the heavy grease out of it. i doubt it was fired because the firing pin wouldn't drop from all the hardened grease in the bolt body.

[awp101]

There are many models of Turkish Mausers, the 1938 is the but one of them. It will be a large ring Mauser action.
Just to throw in some confusion, some were large ring with small ring threads...:bigsmilebounce:

[hogmister]

that would be a bit stronger then right? could you tell by measuring the inside of the action or does the barrel have to be out? also the face of the reciever has a slot machined back in to retain the top handguard. is this specific to a certain model/year? two others that i had were not like that.

[Schuetzenman]

thanks Schuetzenman. so i was close. mine is a large ring 98 in 7.92x57. the action has the ANKARA markings on it. on the bottom of the stock in front of the reciever is marked 7 M M. the reciever and bottom metal numbers match but the bolt which looks almost brand new doesn't. would that have been changed when they were rebarreled or could it be a newer replacement? everything was packed with grease when i bought it and i stripped the bolt to clean the heavy grease out of it. i doubt it was fired because the firing pin wouldn't drop from all the hardened grease in the bolt body.

Ankara marked models usually have a 1950's date on the receiver ring, is that the case with your rifle? Most assuredly your rifle was shot to proof it after the rebuild, but probably not put in service. Your bolt, yes probably a replacement. The packing is probably from immersion in melted cosmoline, hand coating weapons that much would take way to many man hours. A simple dip in a vat of molten cosmo OTOH very quick to do. You do know how to take the bolt apart don't you? If you shoot corrosive primed surplus ammo being able to strip the bolt down and clean it properly is a must or you're going to end up ruining the inside of the bolt and firing pin. BTW, does your Turk have the steel doughnut in the buttstock? That is a firing pin disassembly fixture. You stick the end of the firing pin in the doughnut hole and push down on the bolt head. It will compress the spring and allow removal of the safety then the cocking piece indicator and lastly FP and spring assembly.

[Schuetzenman]

that would be a bit stronger then right? could you tell by measuring the inside of the action or does the barrel have to be out? also the face of the reciever has a slot machined back in to retain the top handguard. is this specific to a certain model/year? two others that i had were not like that.

Not necessarily stronger, but I certainly haven't heard of one blowing out. Smaller threads means smaller chamber shank that has the threads on the outside of it. That all means thinner walls around the chamber portion of the barrel. Is it a viable trade off given the receiver ring is thicker, don't know but like I said, never seen one or read about one blowing out the chamber. That ring is machine to hold the handguards, some experts think it weakens the receiver. It probably does to a degree but given the extra wall thickness due to the smaller diameter chamber end of the barrel it is probably a wash as stated earlier. This maching is specific to 1954 model Ankara marked rifles so I know know for sure you would have the 1954 date on the receiver ring given your description of the machined ring.

I had two of these at one point in time and a GEW 93 that had some Turkish markings on it. These were inexpensive rifles. I think I had less than $80 in any one of them. Shot hell out of them then sold them for more than I had in them. Big fun, especially when 8 mm was really cheap. I use to get the Romanian spam cans for $20 each, now they sell for $115 each. Ah those were the days! :crying:

[hogmister]

pretty sure it's marked 1943. i'll check tonight. i shoot new ammo to save the brass for loading. plus the milsurp stuff usually has thicker cases that mess with your pressures and is mostly "non-reloadable". the bolt disassembly ring is in the stock but i usually clamp the cocking piece in a smooth jaw vice, push in and depress the plunger to turn the bolt shroud off the body. much easier for me since i'm not doing it in the middle of a field!:biggrin: it's a good thing to have just in case. good thinkin peter!

[hogmister]

you jogged my memory! it is marked 1954. so is it one of the large ring recievers with small threads?

[awp101]

It shouldn't be. I finally got a hold of my Mauser info and it's only the 1903s and K. Kales that were large ring/small thread.

The Ankara and ATF marked ones are reworked Gew98s.

[raxar]

There are many models of Turkish Mausers, the 1938 is the but one of them. It will be a large ring Mauser action. These rifles were originally 1903 models chambered in 7.65 x 53, but when the consensus on caliber swung to the 7.92 x 57 a.k.a 8 mm Mauser, the Automan Empire (Persians then becoming Turks) had the Mauser Werks rebarrel their older weapons to the 8 mm chambering.


I have to disagree, the m-38 is it's own model made on orginal recievers, not the same as the updated 03's. 03's have pear shaped bolt handles, m95 mauser style bolt releases and raised stripper clip guides. M-38 recievers are the same as regular german 98 mausers except for the handguard retaining grove. All of my 40's dated m-38's have the ankara marking, the updated 03's I have (except the one dated 1935) have the same markings as the 38's except for one line (don't remember for sure which one) IIRC it's "ASFA" which means the reciever was made by the turks (in turkey) as that was the code of the turkish factory. Also by the 20's the ottoman empire (ottomen?) was gone and turkey was a republic, which is when they switched to the english (not what it's really called) alphabet, before that all turkish rifles only had markings in turkish, part of the updateing of the older rifles was to change the letters and numbers.

Take all of this with a grain of salt, as it's from my memory of 10 years ago when m-38's were $39.95 each and turkish 8mm mauser ammo was $4.70 for 70 rounds (on stripper clips no less)

[Schuetzenman]

I'll dig out my Olsen Mauser book tomorrow and look up the 1938 Turks again. Most of the ones I have seen were small threaded large ring rebarreled 7.65 weapons, including the 3 that I once owned.

[raxar]

I'll dig out my Olsen Mauser book tomorrow and look up the 1938 Turks again. Most of the ones I have seen were small threaded large ring rebarreled 7.65 weapons, including the 3 that I once owned.

you reminded me of something else, 03's that were converted to 8mm have small cut outs on the top of the reciever to allow the longer 8mm cartridge to fit, m38's are made on proper 8mm recievers so that they don't

I'd guess that if you paid $80 for your's you probably got one of the updated 03's (I've seen them called 03/38's but don't know if thats offcial) as thats around what they went for.

IIRC turk mausers went like this 1893, which was a unique to turkey design made in germany similar to other pre-98 mausers, chambered in 7.65 with the pear shaped bolt handle, then the 1903 which was a 98 action with a few features unique to the turks, still made in germany. Then the m-38 which was very similar to the gew 98 but built mainly on turkish made recievers and with the more common style of rear sight. There are also a couple carbines in there (m-38 and m-46) and older rifles (I think there was an 1889, which was chambered in the the most advanced black powder cartridge ever developed the 9.3 turk, unfortunatly came out right when smokeless powder did, and there are proably a couple older models that I don't remember) The turks also updated a number of german 1888 commission rilfes to m-38 style around the same time.

[hogmister]

Not necessarily stronger, but I certainly haven't heard of one blowing out. Smaller threads means smaller chamber shank that has the threads on the outside of it. That all means thinner walls around the chamber portion of the barrel. Is it a viable trade off given the receiver ring is thicker, don't know but like I said, never seen one or read about one blowing out the chamber. That ring is machine to hold the handguards, some experts think it weakens the receiver. It probably does to a degree but given the extra wall thickness due to the smaller diameter chamber end of the barrel it is probably a wash as stated earlier. This maching is specific to 1954 model Ankara marked rifles so I know know for sure you would have the 1954 date on the receiver ring given your description of the machined ring.

I had two of these at one point in time and a GEW 93 that had some Turkish markings on it. These were inexpensive rifles. I think I had less than $80 in any one of them. Shot hell out of them then sold them for more than I had in them. Big fun, especially when 8 mm was really cheap. I use to get the Romanian spam cans for $20 each, now they sell for $115 each. Ah those were the days! :crying:

ok so i checked it out last night. Schuetzenman, you jogged my foggy memory of another rifle i owned. woops! the reciever in question is marked "ASFA ANKARA 1940". it has a raised stripper clip bridge and a straight bolt with a round knob (possibly replaced as earlier discussed). now to the odd part... the under side of the barrel at the chamber end is clearly marked 7.91 . yeah 7.91 not 7.92. ??? someone having a bad day with the lettering punch or what?

[Schuetzenman]

ok so i checked it out last night. Schuetzenman, you jogged my foggy memory of another rifle i owned. woops! the reciever in question is marked "ASFA ANKARA 1940". it has a raised stripper clip bridge and a straight bolt with a round knob (possibly replaced as earlier discussed). now to the odd part... the under side of the barrel at the chamber end is clearly marked 7.91 . yeah 7.91 not 7.92. ??? someone having a bad day with the lettering punch or what?

The raised stripper clip guide is one of those 1903 model types. Every 1903 type I've seen has a round bolt knob, I suppose Raxar is calling it a pear because it has a radius on the action side of the knob. Where as the more typical bolt knob has almost a 90° angle where the knob joins the handle. AS to what's a 38 and what's a converted 1903 to a 38 seems to depend on who you read write about them. To Raxar's point I would agree that an 03 converted to 8 mm would be best described as an 03/38 model to better define it. The original rifle you posted about is a 1954 model Ankara and probably has the big ATF arsenal mark on the receiver ring. As to a 7.91 marking, can only guess. Maybe they lost the 2 stamp that day? :conf44:

[raxar]

The raised stripper clip guide is one of those 1903 model types. Every 1903 type I've seen has a round bolt knob, I suppose Raxar is calling it a pear because it has a radius on the action side of the knob. Where as the more typical bolt knob has almost a 90° angle where the knob joins the handle. AS to what's a 38 and what's a converted 1903 to a 38 seems to depend on who you read write about them. To Raxar's point I would agree that an 03 converted to 8 mm would be best described as an 03/38 model to better define it. The original rifle you posted about is a 1954 model Ankara and probably has the big ATF arsenal mark on the receiver ring. As to a 7.91 marking, can only guess. Maybe they lost the 2 stamp that day? :conf44:


yes. the pear shapped bolt knobs would still be round, but the way they're shaped is unique to the turks in that they just kind of flow into the handle where as a normal mauser boltknob looks like a ball stuck on the end (think mosin bolt knob). 7.91 seems to be the standard marking for turk barrels, as mine all seem to have it.

Does anyone have the addy for parallax bill's turkish mauser forum? that would probably be the best resource.

[hogmister]

Schuetzenman: "The original rifle you posted about is a 1954 model Ankara and probably has the big ATF arsenal mark on the receiver ring."

Schuetzenman, the 1940 is the original rifle i posted about. i had a brain fart when you said 1954 and thought it was that one, but i was thinking of one i sold a few years back.

[raxar]

I was wrong about the "ASFA" mark. my 03/38's all have that, the mark that they don't have that the m-38's do have is "K.kale". if your rifle says "K.kale" it means it's on a turkish built reciever

[hogmister]

I was wrong about the "ASFA" mark. my 03/38's all have that, the mark that they don't have that the m-38's do have is "K.kale". if your rifle says "K.kale" it means it's on a turkish built reciever

where do they usually have the "K.kale" stamp? any usual place?

[raxar]

it's just under "ankara" and above the date stamp. The stamps are identical otherwise.

[hogmister]

i'll have to double check. i don't think that is on this one. so it would be a converted '03 most likely. what are the differences in the rear sights?

[raxar]

what are the differences in the rear sights?

there isn't any, orginal 03's had the numbers in turkish, part of the conversion was to put on rear sights with western numbers which are identical to the 38's

Just on a side note I don't know that it's even correct to call them "03/38's" because I have one dated 1935 that is the same configuration it just has different style markings (though they say the same thing). so evidently the turks began converting rifles before '35.

[hogmister]

what i heard was the "M-38" name was given to them by U.S. importers to distinguish them from other variants. so slight differences in conversion years is to be expected i guess.

[raxar]

No idea about that, I do have an older book that details the 03's as 03's, but the examples given haven't be converted to m-38 configuration