Social Security Out of Money

[ltorlo64]

I have read and listened for the last 2 days about how President Obama told a reporter that if we don't raise the debt limit people on Social Security may not get paid, along with veterans. This has lead to a question in my mind. The liberals/Democrats keep telling us that SS is not in any trouble, there is plenty of money in the account to last for years. Suddenly we will run out of money by August 2? While I have seen a couple of analysis that show there is more than enough money to cover necessasities, there is not enough to cover everything.

I guess my real question is two fold. Why hasn't the President been called on the carpet about this. It has just been glossed over.

Why do we allow our politicians to get away with political blackmail. If we the people don't give them what they want, the politicians take away what they know will hurt the most (education, police, firefighters, military etc). I guess if we didn't have so many social programs they wouldn't be able to do this, so it comes back to us getting what we elected.

UGGGHHHH.

[FunkyPertwee]

Why do people accept anything he says? The 90% of guns in Mexico come from the US bullshit is enough to convine me that he's capable of anything.

Seriously, if your going to directly lie to the American people on national TV on a regular basis, how is anyone supposed to trust ANY agency of the executive branch?

I'm becoming more convinced we're living in something like 1984 and I'm wondering when people will wake up.

[coppertales]

that the social security threat was all BS. Obummer is just using the usual scare tacticts to get senior citizens to lean on their reps to bow down to the massa. If the friggin government would quit giving free money from the social security fund to the illegal aliens, things would be better. I paid for my social security check by working my whole life. I also paid the price for my VA disability check too. If the republicans bow down to the massa on this, this country is toast. Also said the threats of what happens if the debt limit is not raised are all bull shit too. If it comes out of a dimocrat's mouth, you can count on it being a lie......chris3

[Sergi762]

uhhh I dunno about y'all but I sincerely hope all this budget chaos doesn't affect things like FAFSA or Pell grants..there are students here who need that money pretty desperately..me included

[FunkyPertwee]

uhhh I dunno about y'all but I sincerely hope all this budget chaos doesn't affect things like FAFSA or Pell grants..there are students here who need that money pretty desperately..me included

When I was fresh out of high school I went straight to college and got really bad grades. Now its six years later and I've been on Dean's list for over a full year including summer classes, and yet I'm still officially on academic probation simultaniously and am unqualified for state funding, while other students skate by with C's and keep their funding. I had two bad semesters and now theres nothing I can do to get state funding back. Maybe I'm not black enough?

[Ruskiegunlover]

we all have to understand that we ALL HAVE TO SACRIFICE if we are to save our country. Pell grants, student loans, whatever. I believe we may just see a demand for factory jobs soon, as if things collapse and people cannot go to college as much, maybe people will look more seriously for entry level jobs in manufacturing.

[imanaknut]

we all have to understand that we ALL HAVE TO SACRIFICE if we are to save our country. Pell grants, student loans, whatever. I believe we may just see a demand for factory jobs soon, as if things collapse and people cannot go to college as much, maybe people will look more seriously for entry level jobs in manufacturing.

And maybe if people cannot go to college as much, we will never have a cure for Alzheimer, or better cancer treatments, or maybe even a cure for cancer, or you are rushed to a hospital and there are no doctors available because they couldn't afford the $45,000 a year cost so they let their God given gift go to waste.

The news media will never make obama-messiah admit he lied. In fact I am guessing that if given a lie detector test, it would show that he truly thinks he speaks the truth. He is that bad!

[FunkyPertwee]

we all have to understand that we ALL HAVE TO SACRIFICE if we are to save our country. Pell grants, student loans, whatever. I believe we may just see a demand for factory jobs soon, as if things collapse and people cannot go to college as much, maybe people will look more seriously for entry level jobs in manufacturing.

Countries move from agriculture, to manufacturing, then to the service industry. We do NOT want to take a step back.

[yankeedog]

we all have to understand that we ALL HAVE TO SACRIFICE if we are to save our country.
Bullcrap! I didn't get us into this mess and im not getting us out!

[Warthogg]

Countries move from agriculture, to manufacturing TEXTILES, to machinery manufacturing and then to the service industry. We do NOT want to take a step back.


Wart

[Warthogg]

Countries move from agriculture, to TEXTILES, to machinery manufacturing and then to the service industry. We do NOT want to take a step back.


Wart

[Sergi762]

we all have to understand that we ALL HAVE TO SACRIFICE if we are to save our country. Pell grants, student loans, whatever. I believe we may just see a demand for factory jobs soon, as if things collapse and people cannot go to college as much, maybe people will look more seriously for entry level jobs in manufacturing.

Bite my arse on that one...I have dreamed for YEARS to be a Chemical engineer..and I can do it..all I need is a little funding now and the revenue the Gov will make on me as an educated worker far surpasses the few loans and grants it will initially cost... without Engineers, scientist and the educated workforce we lose our global edge both economically and in terms of raw power.. Johnny Dumas(s) didn't give the US the atomic bomb to win the war...Chad the mechanic didn't develop polio vaccines or invent the transistor. Get the point? No? then kindly leave the US and go screw up another nation. BY THE WAY:there are no factory jobs where I live..believe me I am not afraid to work but I can't make it on minimum wage alone with food and gas prices the way they are..

[Warthogg]

Barry has played the social security scare the-olderly-card. This card has worked for years for those dim as the left stream media pretends to react at the HORROR of it all and I expect the scare-the-olderly-card to work again.

The dim ones play this game well.
The rethugs are inept.


Wart

[Warthogg]

Bite my arse on that one...I have dreamed for YEARS to be a Chemical engineer..and I can do it..all I need is a little funding now and the revenue the Gov will make on me as an educated worker far surpasses the few loans and grants it will initially cost... without Engineers, scientist and the educated workforce we lose our global edge both economically and in terms of raw power.. Johnny Dumas(s) didn't give the US the atomic bomb to win the war...Chad the mechanic didn't develop polio vaccines or invent the transistor. Get the point? No? then kindly leave the US and go screw up another nation. BY THE WAY:there are no factory jobs where I live..believe me I am not afraid to work but I can't make it on minimum wage alone with food and gas prices the way they are..

Hang in there and get that degree. Beg, borrow, hold up convenience stores.....do what you gotta do to get through. Unemployment among those with any type of college degree is 4.3% in a very poor economy and never mind the huge difference in life time earnings. Not much more needs to be said on that front.


Wart

OH....on the atomic bomb subject......the primary secrets stolen on the A bomb project were the work of engineers and not theoretical physicists.......those the Soviet Union had in abundant supply but not engineering talent.

[Kadmos]

I have read and listened for the last 2 days about how President Obama told a reporter that if we don't raise the debt limit people on Social Security may not get paid, along with veterans. This has lead to a question in my mind. The liberals/Democrats keep telling us that SS is not in any trouble, there is plenty of money in the account to last for years. Suddenly we will run out of money by August 2? While I have seen a couple of analysis that show there is more than enough money to cover necessasities, there is not enough to cover everything.



There really is no "account", it actually comes out of the general fund.

Sure SS could keep going after the shutdown, but think about it, this whole thing is a matter of intake and outlay, unless you can borrow then the outlay has to be for those things necessary to keep government going.

And of course they can't wait till next April to get the money, so it's got to come from those things that bring in money fast, and that's the taxes that come from paychecks.

Last time around we had a surplus from Social Security, it was able to pay SS plus help keep the government going.

This time we don't have that.

[Warthogg]

There really is no "account", it actually comes out of the general fund.



but, But, BUT.....kudnoss, what about that social security lock-box thingy ???



Wart

maybe social security's lock box is locked within the generalized fund's box lock.....

[mriddick]

The problem is the government has to continually borrow money at many times the amount of what the budget actually is due to basically floating one loan with another. It's normally not a big deal, it's as if we are paying the transfer fee on a credit card transfer, however defaulting means no more loan transfers with those older short term loans coming due all of a sudden. Normally we could play this out for decades but if there's a shutdown 7 trillion or so in loans could come due and that's where the default talk comes from. The reason SSI and the rest could be in trouble is due to the vast amount of debt being floated by the government is several times the incoming money, if the debt takes all of the general fund (plus some) then there's no money left to pay SSI even if we have the IOU's to prove it.

Think of it as if you had a massive loan debt you were servicing with minimum payments. You have a job that pays for all your living expenses (home, car, gas, utilites, food) plus the loan servicing amount but little else. On your salary this could go on your entire life (and often does for some) but have the loan people call the loan one day and you'd be missing a lot of meals, house, car and utility payments, even if ideally you made enough to pay them on the old budget.

[JAMC]

The fundamental truth of all systems of "all-in" social security - today's workers pay for today's pensioners and schoolkids through their taxes, there are no savings set aside for each individual's old age. There is only the national debt, which is incurred in the process of honouring claims by the elderly to a proportion of society's output.

It's misleading to suggest that it's "out of money" though. What this really means is that the proportion of society's output currently being set aside for those eligible for welfare today is too low to meet the expectations of the scheme's recipients.

You either take more out of the current output to meet those expectations or you persuade people to lower their expectations. Simple really when you think about it. The demographics (large numbers of older people who tend to vote) would suggest to me that the former is on the cards politically.

[Kadmos]

but, But, BUT.....kudnoss, what about that social security lock-box thingy ???



Wart

maybe social security's lock box is locked within the generalized fund's box lock.....

Technically there is what is called the "Social Security Trust Fund", this is just an accounting of what SS has taken in, the money essentially just goes into the general fund.

However, if thee government uses those funds for anything other than SS (on paper) then it is considered a "loan" from SS to the government, meaning the Gov must "pay it back" with interest.

Really that's just loaning yourself money, with interest, and paying yourself the interest.

So on paper I suppose it's a sort of promise, but there is no really separated account with investments (aside from gov bonds)

So "raiding" it is really no big deal...except of course if they stop paying people.

[old Grump]

They froze my SSI two years ago because there was no inflation. Congress got their raise and the White House and all of its staff members including the unconstitutional Czars and all of their staff's got raises. If I must stop buying groceries and paying my utilities in order to keep those well deserving souls in pate' then so be it. It would be different if Obama and Michelle were spending money foolishly on high living or taking an exorbitant number of trips on the tax payers dollar but since they aren't I am willing to take the hit.

It's the other guys fault for raiding the Social Security fund by buying Treasury bonds and putting the cash into the general fund. It isn't their fault. Besides it would be unfair to eliminate welfare programs for illegal invaders to our country so lets punish the native born citizens who paid into the system their entire working lives. It isn't like we need the money as bad as they do.

Looks like I will have to start practicing my foraging skills early, just call it early practice for the 'End of the world.'

[mriddick]

Bite my arse on that one...I have dreamed for YEARS to be a Chemical engineer..and I can do it..all I need is a little funding now and the revenue the Gov will make on me as an educated worker far surpasses the few loans and grants it will initially cost... without Engineers, scientist and the educated workforce we lose our global edge both economically and in terms of raw power.. Johnny Dumas(s) didn't give the US the atomic bomb to win the war...Chad the mechanic didn't develop polio vaccines or invent the transistor. Get the point? No? then kindly leave the US and go screw up another nation. BY THE WAY:there are no factory jobs where I live..believe me I am not afraid to work but I can't make it on minimum wage alone with food and gas prices the way they are..

Good for you got dreams, although having others pay for your dreams is not quite the selling point you might think it is :) . I would also note that chances are (unless you make into the top 20% or so) you will take more then you give. Lastly I wonder how many inventors of those marvelous things you listed went to school on a pell grant?

Yeah it sucks it's on your watch but welcome to 1930, your parents and grandparents have spent a great deal of your nation's wealth and there's not much more to hand out. The choice is either we cut 40% and leave taxes as they are or we raise taxes and leave our programs as they are, which one would you go for?



Looks like I will have to start practicing my foraging skills early, just call it early practice for the 'End of the world.'

I have been talking about doing just that with the wife. I'm becoming convinced any retirement I might give myself might just consist of me growing my own food, raising my own meat and making my own clothes. I believe my retirement will be much more like my grandparents who died in 1940 then those of my parents.

[T2K]

Everyone will have to sacrifice by getting less "free" stuff from the gov't (SS, Medicare, Medicaid, Welfare, Unemployment). We've got a huge debt to pay off - the INTEREST in 2011 is TWO HUNDRED BILLION DOLLARS. We're not touching the principal of FOURTEEN TRILLION. You didn't cause the problem, neither did I. But we all need to be part of the solution, or there will be no solution.

Or...we carry on until we default on our debt and then we either can't borrow more or we can only do it at very high interest rates. Either way, we'll have to cut entitlement programs. The only question is whether we do it now or later.

[Warthogg]

Technically there is what is called the "Social Security Trust Fund", this is just an accounting of what SS has taken in, the money essentially just goes into the general fund.

However, if thee government uses those funds for anything other than SS (on paper) then it is considered a "loan" from SS to the government, meaning the Gov must "pay it back" with interest.

Really that's just loaning yourself money, with interest, and paying yourself the interest.

So on paper I suppose it's a sort of promise, but there is no really separated account with investments (aside from gov bonds)

So "raiding" it is really no big deal...except of course if they stop paying people.

Thank you so much kudnoss. Now I understand.


Wart

[Warthogg]

But we all need to be part of the solution, or there will be no solution.



Then there will be no solution.


Wart

[T2K]

Then there will be no solution.


Wart

I agree, because the solution to the problem will require sacrifice. No politician is going to get elected telling people what they don't want to hear. So, things will rumble on until the US defaults on its loan commitments.

But there will be a resolution to the problem, a bit further down the road. It won't be pleasant for the USA.

[NAPOTS]

I read an interesting article about Social Security going broke a little while back. The jist was it can't as long as you have people who are working, you have people who are paying into the system, therefore there will be money to pay those who are on SS. Sometimes they have less money, sometimes they have more money. They never have no money.

They can go into debt if their revenues don't meet their expendatures. Or they can have a surplus. By design as a government program it is supposed to always be on the brink of going into the red or we are all paying too much in SS tax.

The idea of it running completely out of money is a tool used to get old people to vote one way or another.

[Richard Simmons]

I read an interesting article about Social Security going broke a little while back. The jist was it can't as long as you have people who are working, you have people who are paying into the system, therefore there will be money to pay those who are on SS. Sometimes they have less money, sometimes they have more money. They never have no money.

They can go into debt if their revenues don't meet their expendatures. Or they can have a surplus. By design as a government program it is supposed to always be on the brink of going into the red or we are all paying too much in SS tax.

The idea of it running completely out of money is a tool used to get old people to vote one way or another.


While I can see your point are you saying that if retirees go from $1800 a month to $18 a month there won't be a problem because they're still getting something? IMHO once you decrease benefits below a certain level you might as well consider the program is broke.

[Ruskiegunlover]

T2K, I agree. Thats what I am saying. I took student loans, not for all but for some of my college education. I worked for cessna aircraft here in wichita for several years, paid cash during that time for a good chunk of my college education. I had to work 56-60 hours a week at my job, on top of taking 12 hours of college. It sucked. But thats called sacrifice. Its what you do to EARN what you have. I'd go off of 4 hours of sleep, occassionally less, a night for months on end. And, I am an insulin dependent diabetic, and this lifestyle screwed me up for awhile. Hard to manage your bloodsugar when living like that, believe me. Your body is stressed. But I earned it.

In this thread we see part of the problem. Yeah, sure, cut entitlements.....BUT DAMN IT DON'T CUT MINE!

Guess what? Student loans are an entitlement. Like the housing crisis, the student loan market is set up very similiar. They give out massive loans to ANYONE, by law. And, believe me, its a coming part of our crisis. Economists are already saying its on its way......

I wish I'd taken no loans, but I did what I had to do. Take your loans, take as many hours of classes each semester you can to get through quick, before things REALLY hit the fan. But I recommend paying cash as much as humanly possible.

And believe me, your body can do things your mind believes impossible......like going to bed at midnight, getting up about 3:00am to be at work by 3:48, working until 2:18 in the afternoon, having about 1.5 hours until class began, then taking classes from 4pm-9:55 pm, going home to see your wife, doing homework as quick as possible, trying to be ASLEEP by 11 pm, but usually getting to sleep closer to 12 because you just cannot flip a switch and be tired. Oh, and working 8 hours of overtime early on saturday morning. I took my bag to work with textbooks, and during most 10 minute breaks and every lunch I generally worked on homework, being teased about it by some union co-workers. I remember a couple who hated me for not joining the union constantly telling me I'd never finish college, be a 'lifer' like them. Being made fun of for reading 'dictionarys' (my biography on Mao).......I hated it. Most of all, I hated not seeing my wife as much. But, I have a gift: I am a master at time management. So, I worked hard all week, and saturday evenings and sundays (unless I needed the money, and worked an 8 on sunday) were time for my wife.

Just making the point, I sacrificed. Everyone should. You'll appriciate it far more when you graduate. Its dorky to some, but my college graduation was the 2nd most important day of my life. Behind my wedding day.

[mriddick]

I read an interesting article about Social Security going broke a little while back. The jist was it can't as long as you have people who are working, you have people who are paying into the system, therefore there will be money to pay those who are on SS. Sometimes they have less money, sometimes they have more money. They never have no money.

They can go into debt if their revenues don't meet their expendatures. Or they can have a surplus. By design as a government program it is supposed to always be on the brink of going into the red or we are all paying too much in SS tax.

The idea of it running completely out of money is a tool used to get old people to vote one way or another.

I've read in 2037 it drops to 70%, then continues dropping for a while and finally when we catch back up ends up back in balance. There will be a 40-60 year span of this inbalance though that will be dealt with by those 40 and under (if nothing changes).

[O.S.O.K.]

I watch Fox News almost exclusively (or listen to it on the radio in the car when traveling that way).

It's been very clear what's going on.

If you listen to the laimstream media, you get BS. So, boycott them.

Listen to Fox and subscribe to various news sources on the web.

You usually get the real story that way.

The SSI and military and all the other BS that obumer is spouting and Smucky Schumer and Hairless Reid are mimicking are just bluffs. Total and complete.

Like I said in an earler post - "sophomoric" negotiating.

The repubs should be hammering home two things 1) there's plenty of money for all necessitites w/o the increased credit card limit and 2) it is past time to make drastic cuts to spending.

The dims have been repeating the lies that niether of these is true and will be caught with no proof if the repubs will just push it.

If they do this and stand firm, they will benefit in Nov. 2012.

[Kadmos]

I watch Fox News almost exclusively (or listen to it on the radio in the car when traveling that way).

It's been very clear what's going on.

If you listen to the laimstream media, you get BS. So, boycott them.

Listen to Fox and subscribe to various news sources on the web.

You usually get the real story that way.

:lool:

You got me rolling on that one!

Obviously you're only going to get one side of the story that way


The SSI and military and all the other BS that obumer is spouting and Smucky Schumer and Hairless Reid are mimicking are just bluffs. Total and complete.

Like I said in an earler post - "sophomoric" negotiating.

The repubs should be hammering home two things 1) there's plenty of money for all necessitites w/o the increased credit card limit and 2) it is past time to make drastic cuts to spending.

The dims have been repeating the lies that niether of these is true and will be caught with no proof if the repubs will just push it.

If they do this and stand firm, they will benefit in Nov. 2012.

And threatening to shutdown the government isn't a sophomoric tactic?

You are right, the minimum necessities can keep going without raising the ceiling. Which is what will happen with a government shutdown. Tens of thousands will lose their paychecks, national parks will close, government contracts will stop, losing thousands of businesses tons of money, and killing even more jobs.

Eventually if it is a sustained thing welfare and SS will have to be cut, as will military benefits and pay.

We will be looking at very serious problems, but as you say the minimum government can still operate.

It will of course play hell with the economy.

I agree that spending cuts need to be made, and that needs to be a very serious, long term goal.

But forcing a shutdown is not good for America, it's not good for the economy or the people, and contrary to what you hear on FOX it will be blamed on the Republicans.

Because they are the ones who don't want to raise it and would rather force a shutdown. And because where was this when Reagan was president when we first raised it to a trillion dollars, or during Bush Sr where we raised it more, or Bush Jr when we raised it 8 different times?

It will look like the Republicans are punishing the American people because they "don't like" Obama...that's how it will look to most of the country. Everyone knows that if a republican were president we would be hearing a totally different argument, how this is a "war on the bad economy" or some such and the ceiling would be raised.

[Warthogg]

I agree, because the solution to the problem will require sacrifice. No politician is going to get elected telling people what they don't want to hear. So, things will rumble on until the US defaults on its loan commitments.

But there will be a resolution to the problem, a bit further down the road. It won't be pleasant for the USA.

And I agree.

We may go as long as 2025 as the world's reserve currency but certainly not an longer. The American people have some idea they/we are fighting the BRIC (Brazil, Russia, India, China) but not a clue to the fact the Federal Reserve, IMF and World Bank also conspire to eliminate the last super power. I have little doubt they will be successful.


Wart

[Warthogg]

Just FYI:

In the past the debt ceiling has usually been raised by a ONE SENTENCE bill.


Wart

[Charliebravo]

Glad I'm not forced to pay into the Ponzi scheme known as Social Security. Mrs. 'Bravo has to, but I just consider it 7% of her salary down the drain. We're just living on less and saving more to compensate for the fact that SS will be bankrupt before she's 62. Too many people think of Social Security as their "pension" or "retirement plan", which it was never intended to be. Until people realize this, they're going to grow old broke, and I have little sympathy for them. I see friends making the same money as we do, but live in much larger houses, drive nicer cars, wear nicer clothes, and take expensive vacations......all on credit and without saving a dime for retirement other than what the government demands in Social Security withholding. They're the first that'll be clamoring for the government to take some of mine to give to them in retirement. Fuck that! Some people need to scale back their financial expectations in life and start saving for themselves rather than expecting the government to do it.

[Ruskiegunlover]

wait, charliebravo, you mean that I am NOT supposed to depend 100% of social security to reture on? NO! The government has an account specifically set up for ME! They've been saving and investing every cent of taxes I have paid in SS for me! NO! Whaever am I going to do?

[Charliebravo]

wait, charliebravo, you mean that I am NOT supposed to depend 100% of social security to reture on? NO! The government has an account specifically set up for ME! They've been saving and investing every cent of taxes I have paid in SS for me! NO! Whaever am I going to do?I know that you're being sarcastic, but you'd be surprised at the number of people who think this way. Having dinner with friends a few months ago, I mentioned that I had a friend in the financial industry that I was going to see about setting up Roth IRAs. My friend responded "I should probably look into that too. We don't have shit saved for retirement except for Social Security." He was working and in school at that time. Once he graduated, instead of paying off debt and saving, they went out and bought a house that was almost twice the price of the house that they were in....then put all the new furnishings on the credit card. He's working 2 jobs now just to keep current with the payments on all of his shit. Do you think he's actually saving anything? Hell no. The guy's almost 40 and makes good money, but doesn't have shit set aside for a rainy day, much less retirement. He'll die on his feet at work when he's 75 unless the government confiscates some of MY retirement savings for him in the name of "fairness".

[jeremiah johnson]

[QUOTE=FunkyPertwee;149150]Countries move from agriculture, to manufacturing, then to the service industry. We do NOT want to take a step back.[/QUOTE

I agree education is very important to a society. But I don't understand the hate for
manufacturing. history has shown that the country that rules manufacturing rules
the world. The USA has lost so much manufacturing in the last two decades that
we are on our way to lose our superpower status. As far as a service based industry
goes, I don't understand how a nation can sustain on a service based industry. Is
everybody going to fix each others air conditioners/cars/houses etc. Or sell eachother
hamburgers and pizza? [/I] How does a country export enough service industry to
keep a positive balance of trade?

[O.S.O.K.]

:lool:

You got me rolling on that one!

Obviously you're only going to get one side of the story that way

[AS USUAL, YOU PICK AND CHOOSE WHAT TO READ OR COMPREHEND FROM MY POST - YOU COMPLETELY MISSED THE "INTERNET NEWS SITES" AND OTHER SOURCES OF INTERNET INFORMATION THAT COMPLIMENT THE FOX REPORTS. THE POINT IS, DON'T WATCH THE PRAVDA MEDIA]


And threatening to shutdown the government isn't a sophomoric tactic?

[DID I SAY ANYTHING ABOUT WHAT THE REPUBS ARE DOING? NO. THEY'RE RESPONSE IS ALMOST AS IDIOTIC AS THE DIMS]

You are right, the minimum necessities can keep going without raising the ceiling. Which is what will happen with a government shutdown. Tens of thousands will lose their paychecks, national parks will close, government contracts will stop, losing thousands of businesses tons of money, and killing even more jobs.

Eventually if it is a sustained thing welfare and SS will have to be cut, as will military benefits and pay.

We will be looking at very serious problems, but as you say the minimum government can still operate.

It will of course play hell with the economy.

I agree that spending cuts need to be made, and that needs to be a very serious, long term goal.

But forcing a shutdown is not good for America, it's not good for the economy or the people, and contrary to what you hear on FOX it will be blamed on the Republicans.

Because they are the ones who don't want to raise it and would rather force a shutdown. And because where was this when Reagan was president when we first raised it to a trillion dollars, or during Bush Sr where we raised it more, or Bush Jr when we raised it 8 different times?

It will look like the Republicans are punishing the American people because they "don't like" Obama...that's how it will look to most of the country. Everyone knows that if a republican were president we would be hearing a totally different argument, how this is a "war on the bad economy" or some such and the ceiling would be raised.

[THE DIMS WILL NOT SLOW SPENDING OR MAKE ANY REASONABLE CUTS WITHOUT BEING FORCED INTO IT. AND IT MUST BE DONE NOW - IT IS ALMOST TOO LATE AS IT IS AND CONTINUING TO SPEND AT THE RATE ESTABLISHED IN THE LAST 6 YEARS WILL KILL OUR ECONOMY AND OUR NATION. SO GO AHEAD AND LAUGH AND DISMISS THE EFFORTS TO DO WHAT IS NEEDED.]

[Kadmos]

[THE DIMS WILL NOT SLOW SPENDING OR MAKE ANY REASONABLE CUTS WITHOUT BEING FORCED INTO IT. AND IT MUST BE DONE NOW - IT IS ALMOST TOO LATE AS IT IS AND CONTINUING TO SPEND AT THE RATE ESTABLISHED IN THE LAST 6 YEARS WILL KILL OUR ECONOMY AND OUR NATION. SO GO AHEAD AND LAUGH AND DISMISS THE EFFORTS TO DO WHAT IS NEEDED.]

Believe me, I'm not laughing.

I got a chuckle from the FOX news thing

But no this shit isn't funny, and you are absolutely right, it is nearly too late, and no the Dems don't seem to want to cut anything, sadly Obama isn't Clinton, maybe he can be dragged kicking and screaming a bit closer to the reality of the situation.

But a shutdown isn't the answer, nor is being absolutely firm with a no tax hike policy.

It may take drastic spending cuts and a tax increase, and possibly raising the interest rates, and serious changes to regulations on the banks, markets, health care, and import taxes.

Our future is going to hurt, there is no doubt about it, we have a lot of band aids to rip off, but if we want long term solvency then we have to take serious action.

[ltorlo64]

Believe me, I'm not laughing.

I got a chuckle from the FOX news thing

But no this shit isn't funny, and you are absolutely right, it is nearly too late, and no the Dems don't seem to want to cut anything, sadly Obama isn't Clinton, maybe he can be dragged kicking and screaming a bit closer to the reality of the situation.

But a shutdown isn't the answer, nor is being absolutely firm with a no tax hike policy.

It may take drastic spending cuts and a tax increase, and possibly raising the interest rates, and serious changes to regulations on the banks, markets, health care, and import taxes.

Our future is going to hurt, there is no doubt about it, we have a lot of band aids to rip off, but if we want long term solvency then we have to take serious action.

I will not agree that we need any tax hikes until we get rid of the social programs that are stealing from those who pay taxes now. Once those are gone, if we still need a tax increase I will at least look at it, but to have liberals start the discussion with "we just need more taxes and we will be fine" is a non-starter. Conservatives have compromised on this too often for them to even think about it now. The conservative compromise position is the compromise to raise the dept ceiling not to raise taxes. The liberals compromise is to have to cut their beloved social programs and irritate those people they pay to vote for them. President Obama saying the Democrats are giving everything and the Republicans are not is just another distortion of the truth (otherwise known as a lie).

[Warthogg]

Glad I'm not forced to pay into the Ponzi scheme known as Social Security.

But you pay into the Ponzi scheme known as the Federal Reserve Bank.

The link below happens to be a reflection of 2009 but is just as true today. Just the first ref I could quickly find:


Ponzi Scheme: The Federal Reserve Bought Approximately 80 Percent Of U.S. Treasury Securities Issued In 2009


And a thumb nail about how the Fed works:


You see, the Federal Reserve is not part of the federal government. In fact, the Federal Reserve is about as "federal" as Federal Express is.

The Federal Reserve is a private bank owned and operated for profit by a very powerful group of elite international bankers.

It is this private central bank that controls the money supply and the issuance of currency in the United States.

When the U.S. government needs to borrow more money (which happens a lot) they go over to the Federal Reserve and they ask them for some more green pieces of paper called Federal Reserve Notes.

The Federal Reserve swaps these green pieces of paper for pink pieces of paper called U.S. Treasury bonds.

Now normally the Federal Reserve takes these U.S. Treasury bonds and they sell them all to other buyers.

But in 2009 there were not nearly enough buyers.

So in 2009 the Federal Reserve sold itself about 80 percent of this debt.

This is even being admitted on CNBC. The video below is from January 8th, and at the 1:45 mark CNBC anchor Erin Burnett drops this bombshell along with a comment about how it is a Ponzi scheme....




Ponzi Scheme: The Federal Reserve Bought Approximately 80 Percent Of U.S. Treasury Securities Issued In 2009

The Federal Reserve Bought Approximately 80 Percent Of U.S. Treasury Securities Issued In 2009No, the headline is not a misprint. According to CNBC, the Federal Reserve bought approximately 80 percent of the U.S. Treasury securities issued in 2009. In other words, the Federal Reserve has been gobbling up the massive tsunami of U.S. government debt that has been created over the past year. This is absolutely unprecedented, and it is yet another clear indication that the U.S. financial system is on the verge of a major economic collapse.

You see, the Federal Reserve is not part of the federal government. In fact, the Federal Reserve is about as "federal" as Federal Express is.

The Federal Reserve is a private bank owned and operated for profit by a very powerful group of elite international bankers.

It is this private central bank that controls the money supply and the issuance of currency in the United States.

When the U.S. government needs to borrow more money (which happens a lot) they go over to the Federal Reserve and they ask them for some more green pieces of paper called Federal Reserve Notes.

The Federal Reserve swaps these green pieces of paper for pink pieces of paper called U.S. Treasury bonds.

Now normally the Federal Reserve takes these U.S. Treasury bonds and they sell them all to other buyers.

But in 2009 there were not nearly enough buyers.

So in 2009 the Federal Reserve sold itself about 80 percent of this debt.

This is even being admitted on CNBC. The video below is from January 8th, and at the 1:45 mark CNBC anchor Erin Burnett drops this bombshell along with a comment about how it is a Ponzi scheme....

So why is it a Ponzi scheme?

Well, basically the Federal Reserve is creating money out of nothing, loaning it to the U.S. government and then collecting interest on the loan.

That is nice work if you can get it.

But also, this intervention by the Federal Reserve is keeping interest rates on U.S. Treasury bonds artificially low.

In a true "free market" situation, the interest rates on U.S. treasuries would rise to reflect the rapidly declining economic situation in this nation.

Due to the massive explosion in the size of the U.S. government debt and due to the very weak U.S. economy, interest rates on U.S. treasuries should have shot through the roof by now. Rational investors would normally require an increased return for the increased risk that U.S. treasuries now represent.

But that is not happening.

Instead when there are no buyers for U.S. treasuries at current interest rates, the Federal Reserve just steps in and buys up all the excess bonds that need to be purchased.

But in a normal free market situation, interest rates would rise on U.S. treasuries until they would be attractive enough for investors to buy them all.

However, that would create some huge problems.

If the U.S. government was not able to borrow all of the money it wanted to at artificially low interest rates, the results would be absolutely disastrous.

Much higher interest rates on U.S. government debt would cause the U.S. federal budget deficit to absolutely explode. Interest rates on everything else throughout the economy would also skyrocket. As mortgage rates climbed dramatically, the housing market would completely collapse. The U.S. economy would be totally in flames.

But for now (and this situation cannot last forever) the Federal Reserve is keeping interest rates artificially low by lending the U.S. government as much money as it wants at extremely low interest rates. Of course the Federal Reserve is making an insane amount of money out of the arrangement, so it is working out quite nicely for them as well.

But by essentially "printing" a flood of cheap money for the U.S. government to borrow, the Federal Reserve is ultimately going to end up destroying the value of the U.S. dollar.

Every fiat currency throughout history has always ended up losing its value, and that is exactly what is going to happen this time too. The only way to protect the buying power of your money is to put it into something that will hold value (like gold or silver). Your dollars are never going to be worth more than they are today.

http://theeconomiccollapseblog.com/archives/ponzi-scheme-the-federal-reserve-bought-approximately-80-percent-of-u-s-treasury-securities-issued-in-2009