Affect of EMP on modern cars???

[L1A1Rocker]

OK, so I've had it in my mind for a while about EMP affects on modern cars. (the new ones with all the electronics in them) It doesn't look like it is ffeasible or cost affective to try and harden a modern car. So it looks like you are stuck trying to store the needed "stuff" to bring your car back to life in a faraday cage of some sort. But how much "stuff" do you need?

The computer (cpu, pcm, ecm, or whatever it's called) is sure to be a gonner. So if you sock one of these away what is the procedure to installing it. What about keys with the chips in them. probably need one of those too. But do you need to plug in the replacment ecm and program the new key to it first and then store the two in the faraday cage?

What about other parts that will/may need replacing?

* Alternator - there's a hell of a lot of wire coiled up in that thing.
* Starter and starter solenoid or just the solenoid?
* Coil most likely too. What about the systems that have individual coils on each plug wire like my V-10 Excursion?
* Ignition module? Most likely - they're very sensitive just to handle. (don't think I have one on the Ex though)
* Radio. Will the indash radio survive or should one be socked away too? It'd be real nice to have post EMP.
* Electric fuel pump. Heaven forbid that need replacing too. You gotta drop the gas tank to do that.
* Battery. Will the batter discharge or get fried out?

Just some things I've been contemplating. Please, I know the best thing to do is to have a pre 84 vehicle but that is not the point of this thread. I'm interested in what the culmative intelect here has to say about reviving an EMP fried modern car.

Thanks

[imanaknut]

I know for a fact that the controls that I worked on were hardened against EMPs. Unfortunately I am not at liberty to say which vehicles they go in, but suffice to say most people won't notice a thing.

The things most affected by an EMP would be anything plugged into the electric grid. Home computers and many in home appliances could be zapped, but that is about the extent of a good (bad) EMP.

[Meatball]

If it's a Dodge truck, it'll fry the transmission...but then, so will letting a Dodge truck sit in the sun...or the rain...or in the driveway...

[hawk1911]

This is a question that has been on my mind as well, not to many 86 or older cars/trucks to commandeer after the post EMP and or nuclear blast. If its nuclear then IF I live then it would suck to have walk or ride a bike, or gokart to get to where ever Im going.

[romakdaddy]

quite a few modern cars have computers to control everything.ecm,tcm,bcm,dcm,translation:
engine control module
transmission control module
body control module
door control module
and many more.cars nowadays have basic network lines to connect all the modules.i predict a big mess if an emp hits most modern cars.

[FunkyPertwee]

How different is a device meant to be used as an EMP from the EMP that comes from "regular" nuclear weapons?

Would a regular nuke do all that same electronic damage?

[matshock]

How different is a device meant to be used as an EMP from the EMP that comes from "regular" nuclear weapons?

Would a regular nuke do all that same electronic damage?

Don't know much about non-nuke EMPs. If you set off a nuke in the ionosphere it will amp up the EMP effect many fold over the area it is detonated.

[FunkyPertwee]

I may be completely wrong, but I thought the U.S. or somebody devised a nuclear weapon which was had minimal blast but provided a ton of EMP.

Maybe I'm just getting that cross confused with the neutron bomb.

[imanaknut]

I am going to repeat this, and if you don't believe me, there is that thing called the internet that you can look it up on.

Any EMP, regardless as to the source will disrupt the electrical power grid and not your automobiles. Like I said earlier, your home computer would probably be fried while your automobile most likely will not know the difference.

[l921428x]

I am going to repeat this, and if you don't believe me, there is that thing called the internet that you can look it up on.

Any EMP, regardless as to the source will disrupt the electrical power grid and not your automobiles. Like I said earlier, your home computer would probably be fried while your automobile most likely will not know the difference.


Meaning you are fine to drive around while there is no elec., no running water, no gas (unless you have a manual pump), basically no infrastructure at all. Right?

[L1A1Rocker]

I may be completely wrong, but I thought the U.S. or somebody devised a nuclear weapon which was had minimal blast but provided a ton of EMP.

Maybe I'm just getting that cross confused with the neutron bomb.

3 low yield nukes (apx 10 kiloton) spread out over COTUS at an altitude between 20 and 40 miles up will turn the lights out over the entire COTUS. It has to do with something called the Compton Affect.

http://www.physics247.com/physics-tutorial/compton-effect.shtml



The Compton Effect: The wavelength of electromagnetic radiation increases after colliding with electrons.

The Compton Effect occurs when a high energy gamma-ray (or other form of electromagnetic radiation) photon collides with an electron. The photon gamma-ray and the electron are deflected at an angle, and because the photon loses energy and momentum to the electron, so the photon comes out of the collision with a longer wavelength. The longer the wavelength, the bigger the angle. Compton scattering is what we call the deflections and the change of wavelength. The Compton effect usually occurs with high energy gamma-rays and low atomic numbers because their electrons are more loosely bound to the nucleus.


We can use a formula to determine either the incident wavelength, the scattered wavelength or the angle of deflection.

[sevlex]

http://www.onesecondafter.com/pb/wp_d10e87d9/wp_d10e87d9.html


WHAT ABOUT CARS?


Here is more bad news regarding EMP. =2 0If you own a 1965 Volkswagen bug or Mustange you’re ok. . .there are no solid state electronics under the hood, it still has an old fashion carburetor, the radio still might even have tubes rather than transistors. However, even that is in question. In 1962 both we and the Soviets detonated nuclear weapons in space (saber rattling during the Cuban Missile Crisis) and it is reported that a number of cars. . .their ignition systems a thousand miles away from the detonation were fried because of EMP. (Check out a few of the more “tech head” links on this site for detailed explanations). From about 1980 on, cars increasingly went solid state and by the 1990s were getting ever more complex computers installed. Consider a visit to the mechanic today. He runs a wire in under the hood, plugs it into his computer and within seconds has a full diagnostic, types in what his computer is suppose to do, the problem is solved and you are handed a rather large bill. Great modern conveniences from airbag sensors, to fuel injectors and all of it more and more dependent on computers. At the instant the “Pulse” strikes, the body of your car and the radio antenna will feed the overload into your vehicle’s computer and short it out.
Some police departments are even now experimenting with using a specially designed bumper on their car for high speed chases. If they can brush up against the car they are pursuing the officer just hits a button, and through his bumper a high energy surge will be released, flooding into the car being pursued and shorting out its computer system. Result. . .whether you are being chased by the police with this new device, or an EMP burst has been fired off. . .your car will essentially be a useless hunk of metal that will slowly roll to a stop. In that instant, most of America will be on foot again.

:coffee:

[az_paul]

This is an extremely important subject and something we all need to prepare for.

Sevlex...Thank you for posting "One Second After"!! This is valuable survival information and should be read by everyone.

[matshock]

This is an extremely important subject and something we all need to prepare for.

Sevlex...Thank you for posting "One Second After"!! This is valuable survival information and should be read by everyone.


imanaknut could be right- most engines ride on hard rubber engine mounts that would provide good insulation between the car body and the electronics.

I suspect it wouldn't be a simple black-and-white thing- it's going to depend on where your vehicle is, what it's in circuit with, how far away the epicenter of the pulse is, etc. etc.

I also bet many diesel rigs would survive which are what you need to restart the ecomomy anyway- not commuter vehicles.

[romakdaddy]

imanaknut could be right- most engines ride on hard rubber engine mounts that would provide good insulation between the car body and the electronics.

I suspect it wouldn't be a simple black-and-white thing- it's going to depend on where your vehicle is, what it's in circuit with, how far away the epicenter of the pulse is, etc. etc.

I also bet many diesel rigs would survive which are what you need to restart the ecomomy anyway- not commuter vehicles.
the engines are connected to the frame with heavy ground wires and most if not all modern diesels are computer controlled.welcome to the modern world theres computers that control computers...lol

[matshock]

the engines are connected to the frame with heavy ground wires and most if not all modern diesels are computer controlled.welcome to the modern world theres computers that control computers...lol

Will juicing a ground wire do anything? I thought they were polarized?

[L1A1Rocker]

So let us assume that an EMP will fry a car. Besides the cars computer what else would be needed to revive the car?


* Alternator - there's a hell of a lot of wire coiled up in that thing.
* Starter and starter solenoid or just the solenoid?
* Coil most likely too. What about the systems that have individual coils on each plug wire like my V-10 Excursion?
* Ignition module? Most likely - they're very sensitive just to handle. (don't think I have one on the Ex though)
* Radio. Will the indash radio survive or should one be socked away too? It'd be real nice to have post EMP.
* Electric fuel pump. Heaven forbid that need replacing too. You gotta drop the gas tank to do that.
* Battery. Will the batter discharge or get fried out?

Just some things I've been contemplating. Please, I know the best thing to do is to have a pre 84 vehicle but that is not the point of this thread. I'm interested in what the culmative intelect here has to say about reviving an EMP fried modern car.

[sevlex]

I did some additional reading here:

http://empcommission.org/docs/A2473-EMP_Commission-7MB.pdf

What I took away is that if your car is parked & not running it will most likely not be affected. If you are driving you may likely coast to a stop and not be able to restart. This goes for late-model diesel engines too. The biggest issue will be a mass simultaneous multi-vehicle pileup and subsequent gridlock. Even if you can get your car started, you may find the roads impassable.

It all depends on how powerful the emp burst will be. A small bomb will give a small burst that will only have a transient/nuisance effect. If the bad guys want to fuck us up they will use the biggest bomb they can launch.

[romakdaddy]

Will juicing a ground wire do anything? I thought they were polarized?

since all components in a car eventually lead to ground i would guess everything was succeptable to fry.i thought the pulse mostly affected unshielded wires and created an inductive surge that toasted anything that was connected.this could just as well work in a car through the wiring harness to ground.im not an emp expert but i am a 20 year auto tech.im just going on what sounds like it makes sense.

[L1A1Rocker]

I did some additional reading here:

http://empcommission.org/docs/A2473-EMP_Commission-7MB.pdf


It all depends on how powerful the emp burst will be. A small bomb will give a small burst that will only have a transient/nuisance effect. If the bad guys want to fuck us up they will use the biggest bomb they can launch.

Not exactly. If a small bomb is detonated in the 20 to 40 mile altitude "sweet spot" you have the Compton Effect in play. Even a small bomb will act like a Huge bomb with regard to EMP.

http://www.physics247.com/physics-tutorial/compton-effect.shtml


The Compton Effect: The wavelength of electromagnetic radiation increases after colliding with electrons.

The Compton Effect occurs when a high energy gamma-ray (or other form of electromagnetic radiation) photon collides with an electron. The photon gamma-ray and the electron are deflected at an angle, and because the photon loses energy and momentum to the electron, so the photon comes out of the collision with a longer wavelength. The longer the wavelength, the bigger the angle. Compton scattering is what we call the deflections and the change of wavelength. The Compton effect usually occurs with high energy gamma-rays and low atomic numbers because their electrons are more loosely bound to the nucleus.


We can use a formula to determine either the incident wavelength, the scattered wavelength or the angle of deflection.

[Cypher]

If the fried parts all had to be replaced something like this would effectively send us back in time about 100 years for who knows how many years.

Even worse if China did it and/or they stopped manufacturing crap for us. Perfect storm.


http://www.onesecondafter.com/pb/wp_d10e87d9/wp_d10e87d9.html



:coffee:

Where can I get one of these bumpers? LOL.

[RJ Shooter]

Turn your entire garage into a giant Faraday Cage and you should be good to go (if you're not on the road)! :p

[Cypher]

Turn your entire garage into a giant Faraday Cage and you should be good to go (if you're not on the road)! :p

If someone were really worried about it buying a spare vehicle and just parking it in your farage might be a good idea.

The problem is it takes a lot of money to really completely prepare for massive disasters, I guess thats why they say one day/piece at a time.

Even worse than this if/when solar flare activity increases that could cause a lot of issues too.

[remy1492]

I think ImanAKnut knows what he is talking about

But I work with computers and IT systems on base.

Think of this.
Each computer chip is attached to a motherboard of sorts, that motherboard has a backup 1.5v battery for things like CMOS and unpowered (but really powered) states.

There IS electrical voltage on that board, and EMP will effect it.

Regardless if the computer is insulated with rubber engine mounts or anything.
Most laptops or cell phones are insulated from the ground or plugged in outlets, they too will fry, given the same idea, a never ending current in the phone from the battery. this is how your CPU still remembers the time.

It is entirely plausible to pretect against this.
There is a NAT GEO program called Electric Aermageddon or something like that, it talkes about and EMP and the E-6 NAVAL 747 we have that is EMP hardened.

I may have copied it for you L1A1, not sure, if not let me know.


Since 9-11 there has been quite an effort in the military to harden against EMPs. 9-11 was coincidental, the idea really heated up prior to Y2K.

The military realized more and more that everything is electronic and without it we are in trouble.

NVGs, Red-Dots, Surefire LED lights, UAVs, medical equip. ALL have computer chips.

And in case you havent read it (sadly), our troops are qualling on Red Dot sights, not iron sights.

Whether is a Gama Ray, solar flare or an EMP, we could be set back 100 years in an instant.

If you back up data on thumbdrives or Harddrives, take what is important and burn it OPTICALLY to a disc, that wont fry. (also optical discs only last +/- 5 yrs on average so re-burn it often).

[L1A1Rocker]

Not a big fan of this show but this is an interesting test.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0odJKYTzXg8&feature=player_embedded

I'm disapointed though in the follow up. No info on what is wrong with the car or what needs to be replaced to get it going again. Just that it's dead. Would it be as simple as disconecting the positive battery cable and grounding it to the frame to reset the computer, or is an extinsive replacement needed?

[az_paul]

Sevlex and L1A1Rocker..........Thanks for posting the additional information. Very useful and interesting reading.

[Uncle Scary]

A Faraday cage is the only thing that I know of that will protect semiconductors from burning out in the event of a strong EMP pulse. A gun safe makes a terrific Faraday cage.

[1 Patriot-of-many]

If it's a Dodge truck, it'll fry the transmission...but then, so will letting a Dodge truck sit in the sun...or the rain...or in the driveway...

LMFAO.....Sadly there is some truth to that post

[1 Patriot-of-many]

A Faraday cage is the only thing that I know of that will protect semiconductors from burning out in the event of a strong EMP pulse. A gun safe makes a terrific Faraday cage.

How about a pole barn? (metal roof, sides ect)

[Uncle Scary]

How about a pole barn? (metal roof, sides ect)

Yeah, any metal shell will function as such. But it has to be totally enclosed. Electromagnetic energy would pass through gaps, like windows. You could put your sensitive electronics inside a mylar bag and they would be protected.

[az_paul]

Excellent point from Uncle Scary about using the gun safe as a Faraday Shield. I suppose they would need to be grounded, as well.

[alphaguy]

That is actually reason why Russian army is using "obsolete" cars in some cases.

Sure, it is also a question of money, but their diesel VAZ cars are not affected by EMP effect. The same applies for some of their diesel locomotives.

[Cypher]

Yeah, any metal shell will function as such. But it has to be totally enclosed. Electromagnetic energy would pass through gaps, like windows. You could put your sensitive electronics inside a mylar bag and they would be protected.

When you say enclosed does that mean practically air tight as in welded seams or more liek not more than 1/8" gaps in the structure.

[L1A1Rocker]

Excellent point from Uncle Scary about using the gun safe as a Faraday Shield. I suppose they would need to be grounded, as well.

Yes, it has to be grounded. If not bad things happen with the box being charged up and creating it's own field inside.

[L1A1Rocker]

When you say enclosed does that mean practically air tight as in welded seams or more liek not more than 1/8" gaps in the structure.

Yes. I've read that metalic conductive tape will most likely be sufficient. Your safe is a dial combo and not an electronic key pad right?

[Cypher]

Yes. I've read that metalic conductive tape will most likely be sufficient. Your safe is a dial combo and not an electronic key pad right?

I was thinking more about the metal garage comment above.

[L1A1Rocker]

I was thinking more about the metal garage comment above.

Sorry. At one time a simple cage with 1/2 inch mesh or smaller was considered sufficient. Now after the experiments with the Compton Affact that is no longer considered acceptable. Total metal containment that is grounded is the only way to be sure. So your pole barn idea would not be sufficient. The windows would be open and the vents under the eves and on the roof would allow for the long wavelenth pulse to make its way into the barn.

[matshock]

Get a doublewide shipping container.

[L1A1Rocker]

Get a doublewide shipping container.

That may be good advice. I'm not familiar with them though. Do the doors shut and seal on a rubber gasket? If so, that is not so good and provides a gap that the EMP will get through. Also, you will not be able to wire the thing with electicity. The electric lines are nothing but miles of antana that the EMP will travel down, and into any container that is wired up for lights. Also, make sure it is well grounded with grounding rods.

[Cypher]

Or maybe something like the PODs storage containers with some modification to ground it and seal it better. You could put a car/truck packed with supplies in it, not sure if they are big enough though.

[1 Patriot-of-many]

Yeah, any metal shell will function as such. But it has to be totally enclosed. Electromagnetic energy would pass through gaps, like windows. You could put your sensitive electronics inside a mylar bag and they would be protected.

Crap I've got windows.

[sevlex]

Crap I've got windows.

You could always put up full window screens made of old-school metal instead of fiberglass fabric.

:coffee:

[Uncle Scary]

You could always put up full window screens made of old-school metal instead of fiberglass fabric.

:coffee:

It may work. The Faraday cage can be made of metal mesh, but the openings have to be smaller than the wavelength of the electromagnetic energy that you're trying to stop. Anyway, if the source of the EMP is a nuke, the force of the blast may be not enough to knock down a metal structure, but it may shatter windows and rip metal screens.

[L1A1Rocker]

It may work. The Faraday cage can be made of metal mesh, but the openings have to be smaller than the wavelength of the electromagnetic energy that you're trying to stop. Anyway, if the source of the EMP is a nuke, the force of the blast may be not enough to knock down a metal structure, but it may shatter windows and rip metal screens.

Sorry, but experiments with the Compton Affact has shown that mesh of any size will most likely be insuffecent. If an EMP attack is made the target will be at an altitude of between 20 and 40 miles up. Using the Compton Affact to its maximum potential three small nukes in the 10 kiloton range spread across COTUS will shut the lights out on the entire country. There will be no blast damage and most people will not even see a flash - but the electricity goes out everywhere.

[Uncle Scary]

Sorry, but experiments with the Compton Affact has shown that mesh of any size will most likely be insuffecent. If an EMP attack is made the target will be at an altitude of between 20 and 40 miles up. Using the Compton Affact to its maximum potential three small nukes in the 10 kiloton range spread across COTUS will shut the lights out on the entire country. There will be no blast damage and most people will not even see a flash - but the electricity goes out everywhere.

The theory behind the Faraday cage is valid. That there won't be an electrical grid after an EMP attack is entirely another matter.

If I have enough advance notice, my shortwave radio, some FRS walkie talkies, and maybe a laptop are going into the gun safe. Oh yeah, and my Ipod, too.

[L1A1Rocker]

The theory behind the Faraday cage is valid. That there won't be an electrical grid after an EMP attack is entirely another matter.

If I have enough advance notice, my shortwave radio, some FRS walkie talkies, and maybe a laptop are going into the gun safe. Oh yeah, and my Ipod, too.

Yes it is. But the "cage" must now be made of solid, welded, sheet metal with no holes. Mesh will allow the pulse through if the blast is between 20 and 40 miles up. The Compton Affact makes for a whole new ball game. It really was an unknown thing up untill 1999 or so when China started experiminting with it. A regular faraday cage is fine for the EMP that you'd expect from a low altitude or ground detonation but not affactive in a nuke blast intended to cause maximum EMP damage. Your gun safe would work but you need to use conductive metalic tape to seal up the seems in the door and make sure it is well grounded.

Hell, I didn't even know about the Compton Affact untill last week. Things have changed regarding how to protect your stuff now. Go do some research on current EMP studies and particularly on the Compton Affact (don't bother with anything done prior to 2000). What I knew two weeks ago is very out of date.

On edit. This may not pertain to you but some need to know. Some brands and models of safes are using some kind of composite door. Some have a sheet of steel over it but IIRC some do not. If you have such a composite door on you safe without any steel sheeting your safe will not work as a faraday cage.

[Cypher]

Does any metal work, like aluminum vs. steel?

[L1A1Rocker]

Does any metal work, like aluminum vs. steel?

From the reading I've done it does not matter as the speed of the pulse makes the conductivity of different metals mute. One makeshift Faraday "box" is to use an ammo can. Line it with heavy cardboard as an insalator so the stuff inside does not make contact with the metal. Close that up and then wrap it like a present with heavy aluminum foil tapeing down all the edges to insure total contact. Now set this down on the ground or take some other precaution so that it is properly grounded (some advocate burying this box).

It is important that there be no holes or seems that the pulse could make it's way through. Grounding is also very important. As I recall it, a Faraday box that is not grounded will "energyze" with the pulse and reek havoc with the electronic stuff inside.

[az_paul]

Correct me if I'm wrong, please, but it sounds like the best solution would be to put a shortwave radio and anything else that might be affected, like Night Vision Googles and Red Dot Holographic Siights in an ammo box, seal it up real tight with aluminum foil and either ground it with a heavy strap or bury it in the ground. Your thoughts?

One more thing....Your thoughts on putting spare points and an alternator / generator in an ammo box, as well? Thanks much!!

[Uncle Scary]

Correct me if I'm wrong, please, but it sounds like the best solution would be to put a shortwave radio and anything else that might be affected, like Night Vision Googles and Red Dot Holographic Siights in an ammo box, seal it up real tight with aluminum foil and either ground it with a heavy strap or bury it in the ground. Your thoughts?

One more thing....Your thoughts on putting spare points and an alternator / generator in an ammo box, as well? Thanks much!!

You don't need to ground the box to have protection. The mylar bags that manufacturers use to protect motherboards and processors from static electrical charges during shipping are not grounded. You don't even need to cover the ammo box with aluminum foil if there are no gaps (i.e. drilled holes) in the box. When the pulse from the source (nuke) hits the metal container, the charge on the outside and inside of the box cancel each other out. Here's the wikipedia explanation of how a faraday cage works.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Faraday_cage

[El Jefe]

Sounds as if we should wrap the entire house in tinfoil. :)

[Maser**]

If an EMP shuts down your car all you have to do is restart it.

[Krupski]

If an EMP shuts down your car all you have to do is restart it.

Wrong. Do you know WHY an EMP would kill a computer controlled engine? I'll give you a hint so you can google it: "CMOS Latchup".

[Krupski]

It is important that there be no holes or seems that the pulse could make it's way through. Grounding is also very important.

A hole in a Faraday cage is no problem as long as it's SMALLER than the wavelength of the electromagnetic field you are trying to shield against.

Think of a microwave oven. They run at about 2.4 GHz. and the front window is metal, but has holes in it so you can see through. The holes are much smaller than the wavelength of 2.4 GHz RF, therefore to the microwave energy, the plate is solid. For much shorter wavelength radiation (i.e. light), it goes right through (which is why you can see inside).

A Faraday cage does NOT need to be grounded in any manner. It works by absorbing the electromagnetic energy. The magnetic field generates an electric current in the body of the cage. The current, in turn, generates a magnetic field in the opposite direction of the incoming radiation. So, aside from resistive losses, the induced magnetic field counters the incoming field and inside the cage the field is virtually zero.

And lastly, yes ANY metal will work... anything conductive (and has a low resistance) will work.

For fun some day get an ALUMINUM tube maybe 1 inch in diameter and maybe 3 or 4 feet long. A copper tube will also work. Any NON FERROUS metal tube will work. Now, take apart an old hard drive and get those ultra strong rare erath magnets out of them. If you get 2 magnets, stick them together to make a larger magnet. Now, hold the tube vertically and drop the magnet in. It will take several seconds for the magnet to get through the tube.

Why? The moving magnet induces a current in the tube which, in turn makes a counter magnetic field which tries to push the magnet back up. But, because of resistive losses in the metal, the induced magnetic field is slightly less that the magnet itself, so it does fall through.

If the tube were made of a superconducting material and cooled to the superconducting point, the tube WOULD have zero resistance and the magnet would stay in the tube forever (or until you pulled it out).

[az_paul]

Thanks for the info, Gents!! When we planned out our SHTF scenario, we gave no thought to an EMP attack. We assumed ther backup generator would taker care of the refrigerators, freezers, lights, etc. Apparently, such wouldn't be the case with EMP, so it's back to square one planning in that department.

[American Rage]

I'm keepin' my carburated, noncomputerized roadking for a reason.



Rage