Marc Faber: Protect Your Property with High Voltage Fences, Barbed Wire, Booby Traps,

[old Grump]

by Mac Slavo (http://www.shtfplan.com/)
SHTF Plan (http://www.shtfplan.com/)
by Mac Slavo
Recently by Mac Slavo: Marc Faber and Mish on Inflation, Deflation, Doom and the End of Civilization (http://www.lewrockwell.com/orig11/slavo7.1.1.html)



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Investment guru and publisher of The Gloom, Boom and Doom report.


Marc Faber (http://www.shtfplan.com/category/marc-faber), regularly discusses investment strategies for protecting and building wealth during times of economic distress. He has recommended purchasing gold, silver and foreign assets because of what he perceives to be an impending economic catastrophe in the United States.

He’s suggested that war, including traditional international conflict, civil war (http://www.shtfplan.com/marc-faber/marc-faber-printing-money-like-zimbabwe-may-lead-to-civil-war_04242010) and non-traditional terror strikes (http://www.shtfplan.com/marc-faber/marc-faber-on-dirty-war-cell-phone-outages-internet-crash-poisoned-water-supply_02242010), may eventually affect the United States and potentially turn it into what would could be perceived as a third-world country. Even if the US were to avoid a war on our own soil (which is unlikely according to Faber (http://www.shtfplan.com/marc-faber/marc-faber-this-economic-crisis-will-end-with-the-next-war_03162009)), the economic crisis will lead to serious problems for citizens by driving most into bankruptcy through hyperinflation of the US dollar (http://www.shtfplan.com/headline-news/hyperinflationary-depression-no-way-of-avoiding-financial-armageddon_12152009), forcing most to literally fight for food and resources – thus he sees social unrest and riots on the horizon (http://www.shtfplan.com/marc-faber/marc-faber-predicts-inflation-social-unrest-war-june-23-2009_06242009).

In addition to investment advice, Marc Faber also provides practical advice for those looking to preserve their well being. His advice is often looked at as a joke, but make no mistake, Faber is totally serious, even if he has a grin on his face when he says that the world as we know it is coming to an end.

In his latest GBD Report, Faber again advises those with the means to do it, to leave urban areas and seek safety in rural, country areas, preferably farms, and to be prepared to defend that land in the event the worst happens:

Faber has an interesting suggestion for investors if the plunge comes to pass.
With tongue apparently in cheek, he says buy a farm you can tend to yourself way out in the boondocks. And protect it with high voltage fences, barbed wire, booby traps, military weapons and Dobermans.

source: Money News (http://www.moneynews.com/StreetTalk/marc-faber-dow-stocks-1000/2010/08/05/id/366673)
For those expecting a full-fledged recovery to take hold and new highs in the stock market, be careful. Marc Faber on markets:

The market is overbought, and there is a renewed sense of complacency that could get shattered pretty quickly.

While the stock market is not a clear-cut measure of the health of an economy, most Americans watch only the Dow Jones to determine the state of affairs. According to many, all is well. The Dow Jones is back over 10,000 and the depression, as President Obama himself has said (http://www.shtfplan.com/headline-news/obama-we-avoided-the-depression-many-feared_12092009), has been averted.

Those same perceptions will shift on a dime if the stock market were to collapse yet again – which in our view, is likely going to happen.

Though the stock market itself will not be the responsible for a hyperinflationary collapse, the resulting government intervention in terms of massive monetary expansion (like we saw after 2008) could very well lead to Marc Faber hyperinflation scenario somewhere down the road.

In a recent interview on CNBC (http://www.cnbc.com/id/38534143), Marc Faber sees the crisis accelerating and the-powers-that-be have only one solution they’ll use to try to save the system:

The Fed would continue to monetize and this is my view. They will never let up. They will print and print and print, until the final crisis wipes out the entire system.
…
The Federal Reserve with its policy and with the writings and papers that Mr. Bernanke has published about the great depression that more quantitative easing will be forthcoming. And significantly more.

The take away from Faber? As he’s stated before, it’s going to end in total disaster and you must own gold and land (http://www.shtfplan.com/marc-faber/marc-faber-you-must-own-gold-and-land_03032010).

And if you do happen to make it to the boondocks (or are already there) in the worst case scenario, consider the thousands, perhaps millions who will be migrating out of major cities in search of food, clean water, resources and a safe place to sleep.

Perhaps having several hundred feet of barbed wire stored up in the barn out back isn’t such a bad idea.

Reprinted from SHTF Plan (http://www.shtfplan.com/).


August 10, 2010

Mac Slavo [send him mail (mac@shtfplan.com)] is a small business owner and independent investor.
http://www.lewrockwell.com/orig11/slavo8.1.1.html




Hmm, a man with a plan. I bet he is a fun guy at Birthday parties and Thanksgiving dinner. Still..........

[gpwasr10]

If the shit hits that hard... then your gunna wanna be mobile buddy, not holed up in a fortress of stupidity...

Oh and have ammo, lots of it for the opening minutes as you make your way AWAY from people.

[matshock]

I'm thinking more like Chile in 1973 rather than Zimbabwe- but who is Pinochet?

[matshock]

If the shit hits that hard... then your gunna wanna be mobile buddy, not holed up in a fortress of stupidity...

Oh and have ammo, lots of it for the opening minutes as you make your way AWAY from people.

Yep

"Fixed fortifications are monuments to the stupidity of man."

-Patton

[Krupski]

If the shit hits that hard... then your gunna wanna be mobile buddy, not holed up in a fortress of stupidity...

Oh and have ammo, lots of it for the opening minutes as you make your way AWAY from people.

I've always liked Burt Gummer's underground bunker with the wall full of rifles.

[gpwasr10]

I've always liked Burt Gummer's underground bunker with the wall full of rifles.
All fine and good till someone shows up with a line of gasoline and a plan... or a armored vehicle... or a large explosive... or....

You get my point?

[old Grump]

All fine and good till someone shows up with a line of gasoline and a plan... or a armored vehicle... or a large explosive... or....

You get my point?
Anybody with armored vehicles and gasoline to waste won't be part of a mob but a military outfit. Unless you are at war with the local military post I don't think I would worry overly much about that scenario. I think the ordinary household with a full pantry, access to water, enough medical supplies to tide them over till things return to normal and a few people willing and able to defend themselves and their family with arms will do fine. Barbed wire and half a million in bullion stashed away in your secret underground vault only makes you conspicuous, not secure. Can we say...

182

[Mark Ducati]

Even if the US were to avoid a war on our own soil (which is unlikely according to Faber),

Really? I could see someone launching a nuke/emp at us... perhaps even some border skirmishes along the mexican border... but I don't see anyone getting into a traditional battle on our soil, like China marching into Kansas. Nukes would be dropping left and right before that ever happened.

[Cypher]

If the shit hits that hard... then your gunna wanna be mobile buddy, not holed up in a fortress of stupidity...

Oh and have ammo, lots of it for the opening minutes as you make your way AWAY from people.

On the other hand though, how long do you really think you can hold out with whatever supplies you can carry in your car/truck. What happens when you run out of gas, flat tire, engine problem, doodad breaks and you have no replacement with a wife and two kids, how many days water supply can you carry, what happens when you run out of water in the middle of nowhere and don't have shelter, what if it is 10 degrees outside when it happens, how will you find clean water and food once you run out of what your carrying?

Although if you have a place to go in your plan that may work well but there is no gaurantee you will make it, someone else may find it before you get there, most people don't have mony to buy and stock a second home.

I can see getting out of town if you live in a highly populated area and the chances of rampant thugs running around is high but if you live in a halfway decent area away from a big city then I think you would be beter off staying in your house, I think the biggest thing is to NOT make yourself a target, putting up fences and razor wire that is out of place would probably do so. Dont fire up the grill to cook canned spam on it when your neighbors don't have any food etc.

I think there is legitimacy to both ideas but it depends a lot on your personal situation, not clean cut either way.

[O.S.O.K.]

Wow, another "best place to be, best plan, best guns, etc.) thread on SHTF. :bouncing-boobies:

Bottom line is this: it depends - it depends on what exactly goes down and how far it goes down.

And doesn't this belong in the survival forum? Hmm?

[matshock]

Well, a happy medium is to camp out with some lookouts then maneuver when you're being attacked.

Occupy-retreat-counterattack.

If you can get a posse together your tactical options really open up.

[ATAK, Inc.]

Really? I could see someone launching a nuke/emp at us... perhaps even some border skirmishes along the mexican border... but I don't see anyone getting into a traditional battle on our soil, like China marching into Kansas. Nukes would be dropping left and right before that ever happened.


Red Dawn 2.0!!! Nuff said!

[AKTexas]

There are so many variables to consider when it comes to the SHTF.Not any one plan will be the best for all the scenarios.

When the EOTWAWKI happens will you be aware of it?

We all say we are ready for it to happen but are we really ready?

Are any of us willing to kill another for the sake of survival?

We will band together and form a new society and rebuild?

I think mankind is far too twisted to rise above a major crisis.

I don't want to see the SHTF in my lifetime nor do I want my children to see it.

[matshock]

There are so many variables to consider when it comes to the SHTF.Not any one plan will be the best for all the scenarios.

When the EOTWAWKI happens will you be aware of it?

We all say we are ready for it to happen but are we really ready?

Are any of us willing to kill another for the sake of survival?

We will band together and form a new society and rebuild?

I think mankind is far too twisted to rise above a major crisis.

I don't want to see the SHTF in my lifetime nor do I want my children to see it.

Na, this doesn't smell like Yugoslavia. The hard core left consists of about 30% of the population disseminated throughout our geography- with only a few real hot spots. If you're in places like Detroit, Oakland, or urban Miami you better relocate.

Other than that, my bet is on hyperinflation causing a month or two of unrest followed by a right-wing politiical revolution and martial law or a straight-up coup.

The radical leadership of the left will hang, corrupt pols will go up the river and we'll get back to our lives with "normal" resuming in a decade or so.

[AKTexas]

Na, this doesn't smell like Yugoslavia. The hard core left consists of about 30% of the population disseminated throughout our geography- with only a few real hot spots. If you're in places like Detroit, Oakland, or urban Miami you better relocate.

Other than that, my bet is on hyperinflation causing a month or two of unrest followed by a right-wing politiical revolution and martial law or a straight-up coup.

The radical leadership of the left will hang, corrupt pols will go up the river and we'll get back to our lives with "normal" resuming in a decade or so.

I'm in San Antonio with a few military bases this may be a cesspool in a major crisis.I'm on the north end with an easy route out if need be but still too populated.

[matshock]

I'm in San Antonio with a few military bases this may be a cesspool in a major crisis.I'm on the north end with an easy route out if need be but still too populated.

I don't think so many people are going to go "Mad Max" on us as that- only the ones living in insular urban hells. Folks already in gangs for the most part or folks with radical left leaders present.

Things will quiet down especially when the MPs from those bases move to the other side of the fence.

[old Grump]

Actually I think a lot of military bases will get empty as troops move out to a front wherever a front is assumed to be and any site considered strategic is going to get heavily covered quickly. I think harder than gangs to deal with are regular people reduced to begging and how much help are you willing or able to give them. If you can't help them and others won't or can't and they have no survival skills or resources what will they do next. People don't lie down and die quietly.

[HDR]

Yep

"Fixed fortifications are monuments to the stupidity of man."

-Patton

Living in the open long term could prove to be quite an educational experience. Hygiene is as important as food, water, and shelter.

When facing Regulars accompanied by armor, arty and tact air Patton is quite correct. OTOH, remote CID-G compounds survived against Infantry, RPGs etc. The trick is to decipher in what context did Patton intend for "Fixed fortifications are monuments to the stupidity of man" to apply???

[old Grump]

Living in the open long term could prove to be quite an educational experience. Hygiene is as important as food, water, and shelter.

When facing Regulars accompanied by armor, arty and tact air Patton is quite correct. OTOH, remote CID-G compounds survived against Infantry, RPGs etc. The trick is to decipher in what context did Patton intend for "Fixed fortifications are monuments to the stupidity of man" to apply???Maginot line comes to mind or a 13th century castle located high up a mountain heavily manned with Mg's and mortar but immobile, easy to cut off and easy to find on the artillery map or to set up for a bombing run.


Faber has an interesting suggestion for investors if the plunge comes to pass.
With tongue apparently in cheek, he says buy a farm you can tend to yourself way out in the boondocks. And protect it with high voltage fences, barbed wire, booby traps, military weapons and Dobermans.Pipe dreaming and understandable but in real life he just painted a large fluorescent bullseye on his location and said all the goodies are here. Come and get them if you can. Logistics problems to overcome are power for that electric fence, how do you defend yourself unobtrusively, where are you going to get a good supply of military weapons and ammunition. What are you going to feed your 12 angry Dobermans after your dry dog food runs out? You know, the little stuff.

[HDR]

Maginot line comes to mind or a 13th century castle located high up a mountain heavily manned with Mg's and mortar but immobile, easy to cut off and easy to find on the artillery map or to set up for a bombing run.

Armor, air, and indirect fire support; as I said, it all depends on what context he meant the words.

However, being mobile with armor, air, indirect fire, and a load of infantry with today's electronics on your butt would produce the same predictable results.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i-gMMQTt5-c

See the little images?

In today's world it can be dark and "they" don't even need to be close. The difference is a castle might be worth their time more than a few heat emitting dots in the woods.

[El Jefe]

I've meant to ask this question before but didn't get around to it, so, under what circumstances is the US military going to go after US citizens and start nuking farm houses? Perhaps I'm wrong, but I just don't see this as being very likely.

[old Grump]

It isn't very likely, remember the whole thing was a tongue in cheek recommendation. The real advice was to protect your financial status. The rest is just drift from the real topic which happened because I am a rascal and I encouraged it.

[El Jefe]

It isn't very likely, remember the whole thing was a tongue in cheek recommendation. The real advice was to protect your financial status. The rest is just drift from the real topic which happened because I am a rascal and I encouraged it.

Well, at least you admit it. :slap:

[HDR]

I've meant to ask this question before but didn't get around to it, so, under what circumstances is the US military going to go after US citizens and start nuking farm houses? Perhaps I'm wrong, but I just don't see this as being very likely.

It is just some fuzzy feeling as it will never happen. If it did; then our military would become two; as each would view the other as a traitor so they wouldn't like each other much. AFA as us fighting our military; supposedly the VC did an excellent job until they became extinct after the 68 Tet. Somehow extinction doesn't sound like they did such an excellent job..

Our danger lays in illegals who won't want to leave and terrorists who want to die.

As far as some circumstances?? As our borders are so porous millions of illegals walked in; bin laden could have 50,000 armed fighters here. I certainly would if I was him. If La Raza fields 100,000 armed illegals. There are plenty of circumstances.

[HDR]

"Fixed fortifications are monuments to the stupidity of man."


Infantry digs a fighting positions when then "spend the night."

If they stay longer; they start filling sand bags and start building bunkers.

If they stay long enough; they build base camps.

As "they" knew what Patton said and they still made us build fixed fortifications; this is why I got out of the Army.

:lol2:


A bunker or cave etc is a good place to hide from imaging gear.


I didn't mean to kill the thread.

[matshock]

Infantry digs a fighting positions when then "spend the night."

If they stay longer; they start filling sand bags and start building bunkers.

If they stay long enough; they build base camps.

As "they" knew what Patton said and they still made us build fixed fortifications; this is why I got out of the Army.

:lol2:


A bunker or cave etc is a good place to hide from imaging gear.


I didn't mean to kill the thread.

Oh yeah like mentioned it's context-specific.

I would stand by a standard of "don't build anything you can't afford to abandon at least temporarily".

I wouldn't want to defend a fixed position unless I had major outside fire support or mobile reinforcements. That's probably not gonna happen in the kind of scenario the OP outlined.

[HDR]

Oh yeah like mentioned it's context-specific.

I would stand by a standard of "don't build anything you can't afford to abandon at least temporarily".

Unless they are base camps they are almost always abandoned. You move on to the next spot and start all over again.


I wouldn't want to defend a fixed position unless I had major outside fire support or mobile reinforcements.

Depends on the definition of a fixed position; spending the night is a fixed position or where you lay up to rest during the day is a fixed position. As digging holes etc leaves sign it is best to take advantage of natural cover or concealment.



That's probably not gonna happen in the kind of scenario the OP outlined.


True, so paging back to square one:

Marc Faber: Protect Your Property with High Voltage Fences, Barbed Wire, Booby Traps,



To me that means you are in a fixed position.

In my situation; I live in hill billy heaven. As there isn't much here to interest anyone from the military or mobs I'll probably be staying here. However, there could be folks wandering through the woods avoiding whatever it is that caused them to leave their homes. So some better cover than the house might be a good idea.
Btw, I've lived in the woods and you'll need support or you'll evolve into an unsanitary hunter-gatherer very quickly.

Remember even the wolverines had civilian support.. ;)

[old Grump]

And with my little army experience in the reserves combat engineers not infantry the barbed wire, high voltage fences and booby traps were just obstacles we were trained to clear for those coming behind us.

Absolutely nothing more beautiful for a military planner than a target that has painted a big target on itself. My little hut in the woods isn't set up the best for defense but I do know every inch of the land and I know the range from any one position to another, no second guessing about whether or not it's 150 yards or 320 yards. Biggest advantage is its inconspicuousness and the fact it isn't particularly strategic or sinister looking.

I think most places like mine would get overlooked even by the looters in favor of the larger houses and farms in the area.

Not being at odds with your neighbor or flaunting every new tacticool toy you procure is more advantageous than the electric fence.

[HDR]

OG,
I know what Engineers do and I also know almost every Vn Vet has a PH.d in filling sandbags. The Engineers built large and small base camps. Although they may have built some; all the Arty FSBs I saw were built by Infantry.
Vietnam was the first war where 99% of the time our Infantry units fought under an artillery umbrella. Vietnam was also the first war where because of the helicopter the infantry could be moved very quickly. To keep the infantry under the umbrella meant the artillery had to move also.
As an example of how it worked:
An Inf battalion establishes a perimeter, holes and wire. Helicopters lifted 105s in. One or two infantry companies would be "taking a break" protecting the FSBs perimeter as the other two infantry companies were out playing hide and seek.
I saw them all the time and Infantry built them. Some times a Chinook would deliver sandbags on the hook. lol However, that was to enhance the holes.


I am talking about field positions. The fixed position begins with foxholes behind concertina, trip flares and claymores and ends with a base camp. A fixed positions can be as simple as our lines during the Battle of the Bulge. Both Bastogne and Stalingrad were also fixed positions and the attackers lost.

To overcome a fixed position is simple; it is overwhelmed and overrun. To stop from being overrun is simple; you overwhelm the attackers. It is a simple debate decided by who has more ammunition, assets and blood to do the overwhelming.


Every night a Grunt digs in to avoid incoming rounds or shrapnel from RPGs or mortars. In case they were attacked that night, he wants a hole.

Yes, I know about fixed positions. The enemy built them and every time the enemy built a bunker line when we found it we destroyed it. After their concealment was compromised then their cover was destroyed. However, they would debate the destroying with us; after the debate became too painful they'd leave and start all over again some place else.

Fixed positions are "easily" eliminated and so are the hikers. The advantage to fixed positions is with cover; you get a longer chance to live "to make the other bastard die for his" country. No one fights from concealment unless it is an ambush or an attack. They want cover because the shyte is flying in both directions.

Contrary to popular belief, VC and other Guerrillas don't spend their lives under the stars.

[matshock]

In terms of the OP I'm defining "Fixed position" in terms of things like houses, farm buildings, etc.

I see your point that you could dig in around them in a more effective way than the OP wrote about.

What about this though:

Instead of fortifying a position and allowing the enemy to decide when to attack and keep you under siege (you can't harvest crops from a foxhole) you:

1. invest more personnel in recon

2. when an incoming attack is detected either
a. ambush it if you have a superior force or
b. abandon the central position then attack the enemy when/if they pool in it

If they're dumb enough to throw a party over their victory you could potentially surround and assail a much larger force and win.

Heck, I'd leave a big pallet of moonshine right in the middle of camp then attack at dawn.

[HDR]

Good thought except recon means people not gathering food. No recon force can provide security against someone sneaking up and attacking the workers in the fields. In a shtf world it would be the same as it was in Colonial Times.

As a house creates blind spots so you would not want the "foxholes" by the house.


In terms of the OP I'm defining "Fixed position" in terms of things like houses, farm buildings, etc.

They are concealment not cover.

What about this though:


Instead of fortifying a position and allowing the enemy to decide when to attack and keep you under siege (you can't harvest crops from a foxhole) you:

The fortified position would give you a place to regroup and now you have more firepower and cover. If you want a track meet the chances of a loss are pretty good also. Plus older people and kids don't do well in running firefights.


1. invest more personnel in recon

That means grow more food which means your food needs get larger so recon has to cover more ground. You have the recon and heavy lifter support idea down correctly; however do you have the fields, pastures and water to support it?


2. when an incoming attack is detected either
a. ambush it if you have a superior force or
b. abandon the central position then attack the enemy when/if they pool in it

You said when detected; it is if detected.

Ambush is always a good thought the results are you either kill them or sill some and beat feet.

If the nazi attack in the Ardennes would have been detected; it would have been annihilated. It wasn't detected so instead it became an all out brawl of a battle.


If they're dumb enough to throw a party over their victory you could potentially surround and assail a much larger force and win.

Or harass and snipe the shit outa them until they leave so you can rebuild.



Heck, I'd leave a big pallet of moonshine right in the middle of camp then attack at dawn.

Moonshine or worse because in such a world all destructive device laws are "suspended." lol

There is a moment before dawn is when the average person hits the deep sleep mode.

[old Grump]

As always we train for the last war and are rarely prepared for the next. My kick on fixed fortified positions is they are both obvious and easy targets no matte how hard you make them. Fixed fortified positions are vulnerable as soon as their egress and exit is compromised and communications shut down. After artillery replaced trebuchets and rifles replaced the long bow forts stopped being viable for anything except a dry place to sleep in and room to hang maps.

[JTHunter]

I'm thinking more like Chile in 1973 rather than Zimbabwe- but who is Pinochet?

"Augusto Pinochet" - was a Chilean army general and president who assumed power in a coup d'état on September 11, 1973.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Augusto_Pinochet

[matshock]

"Augusto Pinochet" - was a Chilean army general and president who assumed power in a coup d'état on September 11, 1973.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Augusto_Pinochet

Thank you, thank you- but I mean who will be OUR Pinochet?

[old Grump]

Thank you, thank you- but I mean who will be OUR Pinochet?Don't even joke about that. Bad enough the current crop of misfits in the Whitehouse don't have a clue and abuse the constitution just because they can get away with it. A military coup would stick us right in with the 3rd world countries who pretend to have elections but just go from coup to coup. We would not be the United States anymore. Republic may not have been the absolute best choice for form of government but its still the best alternative I know of and a military coup wold be a death blow to our Republic. That is not the way we change leaders.

[HDR]

As always we train for the last war and are rarely prepared for the next. My kick on fixed fortified positions is they are both obvious and easy targets no matte how hard you make them. Fixed fortified positions are vulnerable as soon as their egress and exit is compromised and communications shut down. After artillery replaced trebuchets and rifles replaced the long bow forts stopped being viable for anything except a dry place to sleep in and room to hang maps.

What would have been the result of the simultaneous attacks during the 68 Tet without base camp fortifications?

In war, one side attacks and the other defends; defending without cover is to the attackers advantage. When being attacked cover is a good thing.

[matshock]

Don't even joke about that. Bad enough the current crop of misfits in the Whitehouse don't have a clue and abuse the constitution just because they can get away with it. A military coup would stick us right in with the 3rd world countries who pretend to have elections but just go from coup to coup. We would not be the United States anymore. Republic may not have been the absolute best choice for form of government but its still the best alternative I know of and a military coup wold be a death blow to our Republic. That is not the way we change leaders.

I'd rather have a right-wing coup than a revolution/civil war any day. If the Democrats and their thugs completely wreck the country/currency/economy we won't fix it without completely removing them from power, permanently.

Do you think they're just going to let elections happen that do that?

IF they do I'll certainly be the first to see them happen, if they don't then what happens to our Republic anyway?

[old Grump]

What would have been the result of the simultaneous attacks during the 68 Tet without base camp fortifications?

In war, one side attacks and the other defends; defending without cover is to the attackers advantage. When being attacked cover is a good thing.
No argument there, I'm only saying a standalone fortification is not a military installation but a target.


I'd rather have a right-wing coup than a revolution/civil war any day. If the Democrats and their thugs completely wreck the country/currency/economy we won't fix it without completely removing them from power, permanently.

Do you think they're just going to let elections happen that do that?

IF they do I'll certainly be the first to see them happen, if they don't then what happens to our Republic anyway? No difference between a right wing coup and a left wing coup except in the language. Both will be totalitarian, both will accept no dissent, both will destroy the constitution and the Republic will be no more. Effective change that is productive can only come through the ballot box, not out of a gun. The threat of our civilian guns and an army sworn to uphold the constitution and who came from the civilian population is the only thing preventing the oligarchs in office from pushing all the way to their version of utopia.

[matshock]

No argument there, I'm only saying a standalone fortification is not a military installation but a target.

No difference between a right wing coup and a left wing coup except in the language. Both will be totalitarian, both will accept no dissent, both will destroy the constitution and the Republic will be no more. Effective change that is productive can only come through the ballot box, not out of a gun. The threat of our civilian guns and an army sworn to uphold the constitution and who came from the civilian population is the only thing preventing the oligarchs in office from pushing all the way to their version of utopia.

That's not what happened in Chile. Pinochet was even arrested and subjected to a pretty long investigation and house arrest a few years after he willingly stepped down.

I agree- ballot box first. But if the count is obviously fixed or if the opposistion doesn't even allow a count to take place what will you say then? Better to live under the tyranny of a fixed election then to live under the tyranny of a dictator that has a worldview similar to yours?

[old Grump]

Pinochet was president for 16 years and thousands of people disappeared under his regime. He wasn't arrested till after he left power a sick old man. He had a lot of things to answer for but while he was in office he was untouchable. That is what a coup does, puts an untouchable in office till they either step down voluntarily or they die for whatever reason.

Fixed election.......you mean we wouldn't stand for a fixed election. Kennedy gaining office comes to mind, Thank you Mayor Richard J. Daley. Franken is in the senate and they only had to recount the ballots over and over and over again till they finally got the right tally. Just two examples off the top of my head. I'm sure any Democrat will be happy to point to Bush Jr. getting in via the botched Florida count and the Supreme court decision that finally put a stop to the silliness. Not right but we have always had them and as long as there is money and power at stake there always will be cheating. The point is to find and stop the most egregious efforts. It isn't perfect but its still the best system we have.

[matshock]

Do you think that it was wrong to execute Che when he caught invading Bolivia?

[old Grump]

They should have tied a chain around his leg and drug him through shark infested waters for a couple of weeks then tried and executed him but I understand I might be judging the man a little harshly..............nope I had it right the first time. Hey, I never claimed to be a nice guy, just good looking.

[matshock]

They also killed the folks in Che's squad I think.

I also think most of the 3200 or so people Pinochet killed were Marxists activists turned revolutionaries when his country collapsed. Probably not all of them- I'm under no illusion the man was some kind of saint.

But for the people of Chile I think it would have been much worse if the commies were allowed any kind of traction in the turmoil of economic and governmental collapse.

I think a lot more Chileans would have died violently if Pinochet didn't do what he did. I admit I could be wrong.

[JTHunter]

Thank you, thank you- but I mean who will be OUR Pinochet?

We don't need a "Pinochet". What we need is a mix of Lincoln, Washington, Jefferson, and Franklin. Maybe if Heston were still alive - - - .

[matshock]

I'd follow Heston into hell.

Don't forget Adams!

[NewbieAKguy]

I'd follow Heston into hell.

Don't forget Adams!

Sam, John, or John Quincy? :D

[swampdragon]

Or harass and snipe the shit outa them until they leave so you can rebuild.






This gets my vote.
Already seen it work just fine once upon a time.

[HDR]

No argument there, I'm only saying a standalone fortification is not a military installation but a target.

That is why we still build them? Our "fortifications" in Iraq and Afghanistan are a poke in the eye to the enemy because he can't remove them. Our enemy's inability to maintain his "fortifications" are a pat on the back for us. Same as so many things "fixed fortifications" are a coin with two sides and some are focusing on one side while ignoring the other.

Waging war means logistics and support. Contrary to popular beliefs Infantry does not stay in the field for the duration; they are rotated in and out of combat. Supplies are kept in "secure" areas and so are field hospitals, vehicle repairs, air fields for tact air, ammunition storage, etc etc. As long as these things and others are needed there will be "fixed fortifications." It is when the ability to defend them is lacking then one loses the war.