12GA FH Shotgun/Rifles-8ga-4ga-585HE-700HE-Etc-

[hubel458]

Back again to post info about 12GA From Hell and all other of our
big bore testing and experiments.First some pictures of our
creations, 1st is our 12ga FH case, 2nd Savage 210 it was
put in first by me,3rd comparison of the 12ga FH and my 700HE
with a 700NE on left, 4th the big 4bore we have progressed to,
5th the 6gal pail of water exploding when hit with 12ga 600gr slug at
3000 fps,6th my 700HE 3.25 in a MRC PH action,
the first action out of the shop for MRC, 7th
the Nef we bored out to 8ga FH. 8th 4bore falling block
we built with a FBW falling block in my 585HE for size comparison.
.Much more posted later.Ed

http://www.gunownerstv.com/1212.jpg

http://www.gunownerstv.com/redone.jpg

http://www.gunownerstv.com/comp.jpg

http://www.gunownerstv.com/4borerear.jpg

http://www.gunownerstv.com/Shot%203.jpg

http://www.gunownerstv.com/700phfeed.jpg

http://www.gunownerstv.com/8nef.jpg

http://www.gunownerstv.com/bigsm.jpg

[alismith]

Wow! I remember following this on the pervious Gunsnet. It still boggles my mind what you've done. Shooting that with any regularity would definitely give you a skeletal realignment and a permanent "Quasimoto" shuffle. :smile:

[hubel458]

The secret it in gun design and weight.
Like the 4bore is 28lbs, thumbhole stock and thick pad.
All newbys who have shot it with lighter 11-12,000 ft lb loads
handle it easy. They say wow what thrill.

In 2nd picture my 700HE in big action, built
in the same design of stock. Shoots 15,000
ft lb loads easy.Ed

http://www.gunownerstv.com/phbul.jpg

http://www.gunownerstv.com/700helr.jpg

[hubel458]

Recoil- Even single shots can be tamed with weight and good stock.
Like the NEf we did 8ga in, pictured above. My first NEF in 12GA FH
in first picture. This gun has done more testing than any others here.
I tested our long 3.85" case. the 3.5' RMC case, and 3" and 3.5"
plastic cases with about every slug/sabot imaginable. Then
a different old syle gun. Like 2nd picture, it is an 1887
Win with long heavy barrel chambered for12ga FH 3.5" RMC case.
3rd and 4th pictures, my 700H 3.25" belted case in Enfield boltgun
and Savage 210. 5th pic,is FBW model L falling block with my
585HE in it. It may be the first falling block ever to be
set up in a 1 piece stock, The L is also big enough for
16GA FH, my 700HE. 20ga barrel switches to it and use the 3.5"
RMC brass and 3.5 " plastic in it. 20ga Cases and dies in 6th picture.Ed

http://www.gunownerstv.com/neflb.jpg

http://www.gunownerstv.com/87L.jpg

http://www.gunownerstv.com/325b.jpg

http://www.gunownerstv.com/325c

http://www.gunownerstv.com/fbw1pc

http://www.gunownerstv.com/20dies.jpg

[hubel458]

Here is some pictures of a variety of cases, cartridges,
bullets, we have worked on for a number of years.
1st is 499HE with cast bullet.
2nd is 585 Short HE, that headspaces on mouth and
extractor, works Mausers and other shorter actions.
3rd is 12GA FH cases we made by putting on a 12ga base cup.
Most are made with a screwed on rim.
4th is a 12ga belted case made from 55cal boys brass.
In picture are boys cases, 12ga belted, our 12gaFH with
screwedon rim, 3.5" plastic 12ga case.
I have this setup in a Mossy bolt gun with heavy barrel.
5th is 4 bore cases, slugs and 2bore.
Got a 4bore gun done, pictured above , but got to do a 2bore one.
6th is my 585HE compared to 600OK.
7th is 8ga brass case with 12ga and 28ga.
We are boring out heavy barreled 10ga NEFs to 8ga.
8th is the US-S slug with other 12ga ones we tested.
It has the green locked on base, setup in 3 weights.
It works decent in smooth bores..ED

http://www.gunownerstv.com/499cast.jpg

http://www.gunownerstv.com/585shbr.jpg

http://www.gunownerstv.com/12bases.jpg

http://www.gunownerstv.com/12gabelt.jpg

http://www.gunownerstv.com/4to2.jpg

http://www.gunownerstv.com/600-585.jpg

http://www.gunownerstv.com/8fh.jpg

http://www.gunownerstv.com/usslug.jpg

[hubel458]

Comparison of slug type and speed for accuracy.
Comparing better 12ga slugs for rifled and smooth.

The US-S 570gr slug, with
locked on base does 2-3" groups at 50 yds
and about 9" at 100yds in heavy barrel.
At 2000 fps in smooth bore.

Now a Dixie 600gr slug in rifled barrel at 1300,
2-3" at 50yds- about 9" at 100yds;
BUT Dixie at 2000 2-3" at 50 yds and 6" at 100 yds.
It seems that slower slugs in rifled barrels losing velocity
gets below the speed of sound at 100 yds which
affects accuracy. Of course super heavy bullets, like
12-1500gr, make it harder to start out fast
enough to be supsonic at longer ranges.


This accounts for the guys info I posted earlier about his
high speed in rifled 20ga killing deer at 160 yds.
And holding tighter groups at longer ranges.
He kept velocity above the speed of sound
further down range......Ed

[hubel458]

About slugs going from supersonic to subsonic.I understand
it is that blunt bullets that are in most shotgun slug/sabot loads,
do not maintain best accuracy when passing back under the speed
of sound like spire point bullets do.Speed of sound about 1150 fps.

Now on, FED 239 primer in 8bore and the 4bore cases I have
with shotgun primers. They almost as strong, from my primer tests
as the kiln primers from WIN and REM.And they seem to dent easier
in my 8ga testing than FED209 or the REM kiln ones. I get them from
the 3.5" 10 and 12ga Fed primed magnum cases. Makes ignition surer.

Lotta guys want to try Magtech 2.5" 12ga cases. Well they are
stronger built than any of the old time brass cases I have seen.
About dollar each, go in same chamber as plastic, same strength.
The rifle looking cartridge in a slug gun is what some like..
If you have break action load them with protruding slugs any length.
If auto or pump in 3.5" chamber load them up to 3.1" overall
with protruding slug and you can feed from magazine.
RCBS has 12ga sizing dies. Loaded that length about the same power
as a 3.5" plastic case roll crimped on same slug, magnum load.
Don't leave air space in Magtech, but use wads and seals
like in plastic cases..Ed

[hubel458]

Here is picture of how we did the first 12ga FH cases,
by putting a 12ga size rim pieceon the bmg brass case.
We turn off old rim and threaded stub for add on rim.

2nd pic is process of making my 700HE from bmg cases.
A 06 case in pic for comparison.

In both setups where we put the rims on cases for 12ga,
or start the belt and swage case for 700HE; we
then expand cases out straight to the size we need.Ed

http://www.gunownerstv.com/sht.jpg

http://www.gunownerstv.com/process.jpg

[hubel458]

Here are some pictures of other fellas work and guns
for the 12ga FH. 1st is Rob's Borchardt falling block,
the first gun done in 12ga FH.My Savage was the second.
2nd picture is a double that Rob is making by monoblocking
in heavy rifled barrels onto a big 10ga frame.
3rd and 4th an 8ga FH a fella on machinists forum setup.
He uses the plastic kiln cases also, like we use in the
bored out NEFs heavy barreled 10ga frames.
5th is the cases Rob makes with headstamp on rim.
6th is Bret's Savage with recoil reducer in the butt.Shown
with the cover off.Recoil reducer is a spring cam deal that
fit inside of the Savage stock.Ed

http://www.hunt101.com/data/500/medium/2430DSC00694.JPG

http://www.hunt101.com/data/500/medium/DSC_0286.JPG

http://www.gunownerstv.com/8bolt1.jpg

http://www.gunownerstv.com/8bolt2.jpg

http://www.hunt101.com/data/500/medium/DSC_02111.JPG

http://www.gunownerstv.com/bret.jpg

[HDR]

The secret it in gun design and weight.
Like the 4bore is 28lbs, thumbhole stock and thick pad.

Weight is one of the factors needed to figure recoil energy..

OTOH, after hearing that kabooom and the smoke; how many people trust you when you tell them and offer to let them shoot it? lol

[ltorlo64]

So, this would be your basic home defense weapon, right?

[AKTexas]

Talk about an anti-zombie douchebag weapon.

Wow does it come in green?

[hubel458]

Some of the plastic and laminated stocks are green.
Some of the NEFs we get come in camo green pattern.
That might work. Good home defense with 4 oz fine shot
in 4bore??

When I let others shoot the 4bore, 8bore or
12ga FH or my 700HE, IE real hairy calibers, I load them moderate
and the guys do ok.I don't slip them no knockout punch
maximum loads.

I think guy I show with 8ga of military style,sure did a nice
looking job, much better than most of the 50cal stuff built
that way.Ed

[hubel458]

I found some 4bore plastic cases, 4 inches long, red
colored, looking like an oversize 12ga Activ case, They are all
plastic without a steel insert in the base like Activ cases
have. No markings. I understand they are Fiocchi.
They are the size for the 4bores that are about
.950 inch bore. They are suitable for shot loads of moderate
pressures. Guys loading them say they stretch out after
a few loads. And they use about 3 oz shot.
I will test them with a light buckshot loads
of nine 45cal buckshot, 140 grains each.
Total 1260gr, a little less than three ounces.
In picture are plastic cases with brass ones and 3.3" 8ga.
The base of case will be shimmed with strong wide tape to
fit our chamber, cutting down on the stretching.Ed

http://www.gunownerstv.com/pl4ga.jpg

[hubel458]

When I made the 16ga FH, shown earlier in this thread,
I had couple bmg cases that were partly worked down, and not
yet expanded to 16ga mouth size. With a rim on it bigger than the
base which was .770". Well, I've had guys ask if I would ever
have bottlenecked cartridge. This led me to a way to do one.
I made rim .770, left shoulder diameter, swage case sides straight,
and expanded neck for 585" size. Cut the case to 3.7" length, and
we have 585 Hubel Super Magnum, HSM. This will be my only
bottle necked wildcat. I can make the mag box on the MRC PH
long to feed case..Good for over 16,000 ft lbs, Regular 14,000 ft lbs.
Will that put trex in small letters.....Pictured with 505 Gibbs to which
it has nearly identical larger shape and good side taper for easy
extraction, with heavy loads.And I can make cases like I do with
my 700HE.Case hold 250gr ball powder under bullet.
It'll work in FBW Model L..ED

http://www.gunownerstv.com/585hsm.jpg

[hubel458]

Shot 4 ga plastic case with 7- 140 gr balls, 980gr total
1800 fps. Used duplex load- Blue Dot 100gr, - Re17 150gr.
A card and couple nitro wads under load and card over, glue gunned
the card in. Shot loadedin two rows of 3 and 7th on bottom
in recess in the middle of top wad. Red plastic case ok some
expansion. Just about the limit for an all plastic case.

Here is picture 0f 585HSM and some other cases.
Gonna test a few in trusty ole Enfield I shot
the 700H 3.25 in with extra rear lugs. Change barrel
lengthen port.It won't do maximum real hotrod
loads like when I put it in PH later, but it'll
outrun trex.2nd pic... ED

http://www.gunownerstv.com/585hsmcomp.jpg

http://www.gunownerstv.com/hsmen.jpg

[hubel458]

In the 4ga plastic case a 760 gr ball at 2000 fps
extracted ok. 3oz #2 shot load at 1500 ok.
More 8ga stuff, fired a 2 ball, 820gr load at 1600
with all the RE17 it had room for. We fired 1300
gr cast full bore 8ga hard slug at 1700. Found a
guy who can do them. Here is picture of his 10
and 8ga cast fullbore hard slugs. 2nd picture is the
585 HSM case sectioned with a competition case
showing how strong brass is.Ed

http://www.gunownerstv.com/810cast.jpg

http://www.gunownerstv.com/hsmsect.jpg

[alismith]

Wow! You passed right through Tyrannosaur Class into Brontosaur Class. Nothing alive, or dead, could stand up to those.

If you could get 3 Grizzlies to line up in a row, you could get all three with one shot.

[hubel458]

That is neat idea- Deoends on bullet hardness,
The 4ga all plastic case good for 4 of my magnum
pressure loads, with our slower powders,before
it is expanded to much.
Compared to the brass cases, at 50% more pressure,
I've fired one 6 times and sized, and fired it 4 more.ED

[hubel458]

We found some 585 hardcast, sized and lubed bullets.
Works ok in my 585s at high speed. Shown in picture.

We showed 10ga slugs above, Another easy to do
10ga slug load is the 10ga wadcups for lead BPI has,
with a 69cal swaged lead bullet in it that Dixie sells.
It is hollowbased and 750gr.You can also cast .69-.70
lead slugs for wadcup use. Also use the same wadcup
for buckshot. Some are showing interest in 10ga
due to NEF making them with heavy bull barrels.
Another experimenter has got a bunch
of RMC 3.5" brass 10ga cases, and will load and test
the fullbore 10ga slugs shown above. RMC can do
them about any time you want.Ed
http://www.gunownerstv.com/585castbul.jpg

[hubel458]

Here is picture of the 3.5" 20ga brass case in
FBW falling block. Nice cases by RMC.Shotgun primer.
Using 395 gr sabot get over 2700 fps. 600gr
over 2200. Cases take many reloads with
minimum sizing. One fired 8 times, still good
and the slower powders get the velocity
without the hard shock to cases, compared to
fast shotgun powders. And the hotrod Hastings
factory loads work in the gun also.

Guy got new design 8 and 10 ga slugs with
bigger hollow in the base. 1100gr for 8 and
900gr for 10. More accurate in smooth bores.
Will let everyone know when he is ready to
make a few for shooters.Ed

http://www.gunownerstv.com/3520fbw.jpg

[hubel458]

I like singleshot break actions. I found another brand that will work
to make heavy barrel 12 and 20 ga FH. By monoblocking in heavy
barrels. It is the CBC Model SB. It has stock mounted like more
expensive doubles and O/U. And nice shaped pistol grip stock.
They have the nice stylish look like the Win 37 and Stevens 94.
But they are heavier built, just need heavy barrel.
I going to do a couple by monoblocking in heavy barrels, one 20ga
and one my 585 HE like I did in the NEF.And they are 50 to 100 bucks.

That action is a 1/8 inch wider than NEF, big barrel breach diameter
like NEF 10/12 gauges. The bearing surfaces on the pivot is .300"
wider, and pivot block is 1/4" wider. Pivot pin is 1/10" bigger.
The action is a 1/2 inch taller, and extra diameter at breach end.
In fact you could build a real hairy 8ga on its wider action, with
a heavy barrel and a new pivot block welded on.Ed

[hubel458]

More info on doing 20ga 3.5" in break actions. Nice
to do them in falling blocks, but they aren't available
for decent price. One choice, heavy barrel NEF 20ga,
lengthen chamber, but barrels are too short for proper
burning of large loads. Longer barrel better and helps
with recoil. And in a break action looks better to me.
Brass cases from RMC 7 bucks, decent price compared to
600NE brass at twice that. Many guys want 20s along with
the bigger. So you put a heavy barrel in a gun like the CBC
which is low cost and put extra toward the barrel.
Which is why I started research after getting a CBC,
as it is about perfect for the 20ga added heavy barrel.
Or in NEF, a little more. Or other singles, if heavy enough.
And you still fire factory 3-3.5" slug loads. And 3.5" brass
20ga will do same as 600NE factory loads, in a gun at
1/20 the price. That is reason we are looking at monoblocking
20ga barrels to make heavy strong guns, that can
get great velocities, less cost.. Like 600gr to 2200 or more.
Added heavy barrels in right actions will hold all the
pressure the RMC brass operates at. And remember one
experimenter has 20ga kills at 160 and 230 yds on deer.ED

[hubel458]

More info on 10 and 8 gauge slugs. The guy got some
made with deep hollowbase, 10ga 900gr, 8ga 1100gr.
He will make them for a buck each.
Bob Bigando in AZ. (bobiano at yahoo.com)
Good price as they are nice hard shiny slugs.
For seals for 10 and 8 gauge you can get regular
card seals and nitro fiber wads, but plastic seals
will do better, about a 100 fps in the faster loads.
Plastic seals for 10 ga are at BPI, called - X10X.
For 8ga I cut bottom seal part off of the 8ga wadcup
that BPI has. For extended accuracy in smooth bores
you can screw the seals on to the slugs and that
will make the overall projectile more front heavy.
Or better yet screw nitro fiber wads to the slug,
like the Brenekkes are. Good smoothbore accuracy
Use slugs with seals on, with slower RE17 that fills
case so no fiber wads are need.Just seal and slug.ED

http://www.gunownerstv.com/810cast.jpg

[hubel458]

I talked about these 12ga jacketed full bore slugs earlier,
shown below. Well now BPI has something similiar in
their new catalog. We have tested some and one guy
got a 3 shot group that is nearly touching at 50 yds
in a scoped NEF Ultra slug gun. They can go real fast in
our 3.5 RMC or our real long case.They are hollowpoint
and fairly streamlined.I fill them with plastic glue for
better streamlining.Fullbore and no sabots needed.
Relatively light weight, to lessen recoil.Ed

http://www.gunownerstv.com/rgal.jpg

[Mark Ducati]

I've watched your thread about the 12ga FH from even last year....

Looks like a really neat shotgun/rifle "because you can".... but in reality, what would it be used for? What kind of hunting? Buffalo? Elephant? Grizzly?

[hubel458]

All of those big ones and with lighter streamlined slugs deer
and hogs at little longer ranges.A good stopping cartridge
for dangerous game.Ed

[hubel458]

The 12ga Brenekke slugs with locked on base and the USS-S
slugs I test have led to other combinations that I've put
together using different slugs and wads. The object is
60 yd accurate, economical slugs for reloading smoothbores
that in the reloading process we can get more power also.
Like the Lyman cast slugs in thickwall 10ga steel wads,
with the slug glued in and wad cut off even with top of slug.
Then with wad cut even, you load and can rollcrimp perfect.
It makes a real nose heavy combination that is as accurate
in smoothbores, as the expensive 10ga foster style slugs.
Another one is the hollowbase 577 soft lead slugs that Dixie
sells, I put in a thickwall 16ga wad that BPI has. I glue it in
using Goop, a thick glue that hardwares sell. Epoxy works.
Another one is 20ga ga thickwall wad with 54 cal hollowbase
soft lead slugs. All these and others can be loaded for a fifth of
factory for smoothbores, and be as accurate as foster slugs.
And our slow powder loads seal good with wadcups.
Representative one in middlle, 10ga.Slug glued in tight.Ed

http://www.gunownerstv.com/bbvar.jpg

[hubel458]

Some wonder if only trying for foster slug accuracy at 200 feet
or 60-70 yds wasn't the best goal in a smooth bore, But if you get it
at 20% of the cost you've made a big gain. And most deer here are
killed at 30 yards. And putting slugs inside of thickwall wadcups,
with corresponding nitro wads under slug to get slug to the front
of cup, slug glued in, makes them long and a little more accurate than
foster slugs. Reason is the forcing cone in smoothbores. With the
long nose, heavy combination of wadcup/slug, the back of the
wadcup is in case yet while the front gets into the bore, past the
forcing cone, for a straight start. Little better accuracy. Like the
accurate US-S smoothbore locked on base slug, that is long.
The longer the nose heavy slug/sabot combo is, the truer it flies.
And most of these combinations work in brass cases with
thick walls like RMC cases. They fit real tight for my cases. Ed

[hubel458]

Penetration with slugs-Had a bunch of
wood blocks up to 12" through.

20ga load is a 54 cal 410 gr slug glued in wadcup.
Gives the same effect as Brenekke with locked on base..
Good in smoothbore at 50 yds.Goes through
6" block of wood easy/

Buckshot load in 4bore, 9 140gr 45cal balls at 1800,
all zip through 3/4" OSB and keep going.
In 4bore 760gr steel ball zips through 12" block of wood.
going over 3200 fps. Wood is dried hard poplar.

In 10ga 3.5" plastic case, a 900gr hardcast slug at 1800
fps, through same kind of block easy. This slug I put
on a screwed on base with plastic seal and wad.
I've also put plastic seals and fiber wads on 8ga
slugs to test later..

12ga 600gr hard slug at 2100 zips through 12"
wood block like it was putty.In a 3.5" RMC
case in NEF.

Anyone wanting one of my loaded 585HSMs to
collect or look at, let me know. 750gr
slug in this at 2800 in Enfield test gun.
Soon have barrel in PH and put the real
speed to it. About 33-3400.

Will soon have the heavy 20 ga barrel mono-blocked
into the 12ga barrel setup on the CBC break action.
Make a nice looking gun. Also going to put the 8ga heavy
barrel I had in Enfield for testing into falling block
built like the 4 bore one.Maybe done by summer.
Will be in one piece stock like 4bore.Ed

[hubel458]

Finding real slow powders that works with shotgun primers,
without starter powder. We found RE-17 and surplus 7383.
To recap faster rifle powders we use -VV110,IMR 4759,4227..

On the thread we've written about real slow powders like
H-BMG we've used with a starter powder, IE 15gr of Blue dot,
and H-BMG in amounts from 150 gr to 230gr in 3.5 and 3.85
inch brass cases. And 3.5 " plastic cases. 860-1040 gr slugs.
Tested in NEF with long heavy barrel.

We finally got some RE-50,a really slow powder like H-BMG.
It works with a real magnum shotgun primer with heavy slugs,
860 gr on up, in 3.5" RMC brass, 3.5" plastic and our long
brass case. I used 239 Fed primers. Lighter slugs
only give squib loads.RE-50 Is a powder made like RE-17
with the deterrant all through the grain of the powder,
rather than all on the surface of the grains, so it will ignite
easier, to get the initial combustion started.

In brass case used 240gr with 860gr slug, 1950 fps
and 220gr with 1040gr slug, 1750.
In 3.5" plastic 860gr slug with 180gr RE-50, 1500 plus.
Now these velocities aren't earth shattering as powder is real
slow, but cases don't expand, not even plastic case base cup.
And no starter powder. Nice thing is just fill cases
leaving room for slug and seal and no worries about
to high of peak pressures with heavy slugs
or cases expanding to stick.

Now to get 239 primers get Fed 12ga long red
3.5" primed cases from BPI. I used Fed cases,and took out
primers and used in other plastic and the brass cases.
Some guys trying to free up 239 primers for us reloaders.
Federal puts them in 3.5" mag 12ga loads and 10ga cases.

Elsewhere it was reported someone may do a 16ga sabot.
Also a guy got huge antlered buck with hotrod 20ga. Ed

[Schuetzenman]

Well it's not my cup of tea but I applaude :clap:your creativity and passion for this megga bore project.

[hubel458]

I have a way to compare primers without powder and slugs,
for a lot of my experimenting. I use a short 24"barrel 10ga.
The barrel being shorter I can see the sparks and flame.
I fire off the primers in case with no powder/slugs.

I have just tested to see if magnum FED Fusion and Triple 7
inline muzzleloading primers were as strong as FED 239.
Just the two brands to test in the 10ga to compare flame,
sparks and bang, and they were not as good as the 209
Remington STS ones I like. They only put a few sparks out
of the barrel.The REM 209 STS and Fed 209 M had 3" fire out the
barrel and the Fed 239 had about 5-6" out the barrel. And 8ga
Rem and Win kiln case hotrod primers 8" plus....

Previous post I mention trying to start H-BMG slow powder with
8ga kiln primers without success. Which is why we figured out
using a starter powder like 15gr Blue Dot. Then it works great
with any shotgun primer. Guys here when they see misfires with
shotgun primers and H-BMG only, and the see starter powder loads
go off in our big 12ga case like a tank cannon, they are
flabbergasted at the difference.ED

[viero]

I've watched your thread about the 12ga FH from even last year....

Looks like a really neat shotgun/rifle "because you can".... but in reality, what would it be used for? What kind of hunting? Buffalo? Elephant? Grizzly?

BIGGER............ Tyrannosaurus Rex ..... its being cloned......

[Tx Dogblaster]

Anyone wanting one of my loaded 585HSMs to
collect or look at, let me know. 750gr
slug in this at 2800 in Enfield test gun.
Soon have barrel in PH and put the real
speed to it. About 33-3400.

Let me know how much and where to send it. These would awesome conversation pieces to add to my collection!!!

[hubel458]

I mentioned in the threads earlier a 16GA FH case
I made from bmg brass. Then I put it in a 16ga
Stevens 94 break action by lengthening chamber
for the 3.5" case. I kept speed and pressures down
as the regular barrel on the gun had a thin muzzle.
Now I found a thick heavy 16ga 32" alloy tube and
I had extra Enfield test action, with the port
opened for longer cases. I turned it 1.1" at the
muzzle. Nice and heavy. It does a 630gr 16ga
'Greg S' slug 2400 and 385 gr Lightfield 16ga slug
to 3000, without the bottom 2/3 of the case
having to be resized. With RE-17. I have these cases
setup for shotgun primers.The Lightfield has it own
seal on the locked on base and for the 630 gr use
a BPGS and Flexseal over powder..

For a loaded 585HSM, UPS shipping included $20-
PM me for address. Ed

[hubel458]

More info about the seal and cushion for 16ga
630 gr slug. Plastic seal works best.A clearer description
It is a BPGS type plastic seal, IE, a one way seal,
and a flex type cushion. One way seals best.The seal/cushion,
is the bottom part from 16ga wad cups.
Like bottom half of bottom trap commander 16ga wad.Ed

[hubel458]

Here is picture the CBC 20ga FH setup
by mono-blocking a heavy 20 ga barrel
into a CBC 12ga breech section.The 20 heavy
barrel is threaded into the mono-block made
by cutting off 12ga barrel. These CBC actions
are taller and wider than other break actions
and the locking lug block works better and
nicer than other break actions.Also shown
is 20ga 3.5" plastic and brass cases.
Second picture is PH action with port lengthened
for 585HSM, shown in action. I also have second
change barrel for 700HE long case for this action.
Imagine over 20,000 ft lbs in a PH, for 700HE.
Also shown behind is a PH with 700H 3.25"..Ed
http://www.gunownerstv.com/cbc20.jpg
http://www.gunownerstv.com/phl585.jpg

[hubel458]

Here are some 20ga slugs/sabots we rigged up.
I traded for whole box(hundreds) of 20ga Hammerhead
slugs, in the picture. They had pulled slugs
out of the locked on plastic base, so I glue them
back in so base stays for fair smoothbore accuracy.
And I also glued in various 458 bullets, as shown,
which fit tight in cup, up to 500gr. They discard
on impact. Fair accuracy at 50-70 yds. Less expensive
shooting as I have pile of hard lead 458 slugs.

Idea on 8ga FH. Looked at a TCR87 break action 10ga
and the breach mono-block can take a little bigger
barrel.If I find one I can afford(pricey) I'll do 8ga.
These are very strong actions, a little smaller version
of the action setup Colin put the 2bore in.
Just put in straight 8ga bull barrel like NEF Ultra.ED

http://www.gunownerstv.com/20gasab.jpg

[hubel458]

Here is picture of the 4bore in a more finished look.
Second picture is closeup of cases and 1520 gr
hollowbase hard slugs. The 4bore is smooth bore so
hollowbase slugs are used. I set up gun with
smoothbore as that saved large amount of time and
money on the barrel. Ed

http://www.gunownerstv.com/4done.jpg

http://www.gunownerstv.com/zacslug.jpg

[hubel458]

I found 3 long brass 8ga cases to go with
the 3.3" plastic ones. They are an inch longer
and made by RMC. The 8ga barrel I'm putting
on a falling block will have the chamber long
so I can use both lengths of cases.
The plastic ones are from 8ga kiln cases with base
swaged a little and has shotgun primers, The
long brass has shotgun primers.
I use Fed 239 shotgun primers.Ed

http://www.gunownerstv.com/8losh.jpg

[hubel458]

The long brass 8ga cases have same thick
sides as plastic cases. And there are long
plastic/paper cases out there, but they
are scarce. Thick sides mean a good chamber
fit, so as to minimize case expansion and make sizing
easier. Here is picture 8ga and 10ga fullbore slugs with
locked on basewads that I setup. Wads held on by
screws and slugs hollowbase as well, so to work in
smooth barrels with some accuracy. 8ga is 1100gr.
10ga is 900 gr.Ed
http://www.gunownerstv.com/810base.jpg

[hubel458]

New super strong 12ga bolt gun just out, Savage 212, taking
over for the 210. You know I did my first 12ga FH in a 210 and
have posted that sometime I'd like to get a thicker walled
reciever built to have more strength and safety.
Well Savage helped us out.

Its reciever is 1.5" diameter, where the 210 was 1.36" dia.
I has a large .900" diameter bolt, where the 210 had regular
110 bolt inside bolt carrier. It has a fitted bolt head like 210
and other Savage 110-116 rifles. Only its bolt head has two lugs
where the 210 had 3 lugs. Its two lugs about 90% strength as
the 210s 3 lugs.Its about 12% stronger lugs than Enfield and
Rugers. Also it appears the bolt raceways are not through the
barrel thread area so about 50% stronger barrel connection.

Price not too bad 500-550. I'll try to find one later to do some
hairy cartridges in. It has a 3" 12ga chamber from factory and
detachable magazine. Probably can have mag and port lengthened
and feed ok, with 3.5" 12ga and the 700H 3.25". More info
as I find out stuff.Picture from auction-e.Thanks to
Bob in OR for info.Ed
http://auction-e.com/image/19/982/0804.jpg

[hubel458]

Some more info on the Savage 212. I looked at one,
got more measurements. The port is 3.812" long.
Can be made longer. Bolt travel is 4.625" and can be .50"
longer. And with full diameter bolt can have extra
lugs in back. The Mag box has room for extra length in
front of it and behind it. It could work for 12ga FH
and 700HE long case.

A fellow on Gunsmithing forum found a way to make
jacketed slugs using copper tubing caps, the solder ones,
by putting them in a die and using a shaped punch to form
a round nose copper jacket, that can be filled with lead.
He made .700 cal ones, different dies/punchs could
be made .729, 12ga size. I got a few here and going to see
what is possible. I got bigger caps also to see about 4ga
and 8ga ones. Here is picture of the CBC break action with
the 20ga heavy barrel mono-blocked in, with action open.Ed
http://www.gunownerstv.com/cbco20.jpg

[hubel458]

Would have posted back quicker but computer
hookup down for afew days..
Here is picture of 16GA FH I mentioned earlier doing in
an Enfield. Got 630gr slug 2400, compared to
the first 16GA FH in thin barrel break action at 1600.
I use 630 gr full bore slugs and the 385gr SPW
saboted with locked on base.

Opened port and changed bolt stop. Reamed
front so case fit through action into barrel and added extra
rear lugs. Same process that is used to do Enfield
in my 700H 3.25.
I got some of the work done on 8ga in my falling
block design, like the 4ga I've done pictured earlier.
Will get pictures posted later..Ed
http://www.gunownerstv.com/en16fh.jpg

[hubel458]

Experimenting for fellows trying to get speed with heavier sabot slugs than
the lightweight saboted 4-500 gr kind of slugs, in 2 5/8" length brass
cases for where length is limited..

Using 770 gr saboted slugs with locked on base, by US-S.
Thes are long saboted slugs due being brass and locked on base.
Real hard to do with these due to lack of powder space for the RE17
and IMR 4759-4227 that I like to use. With 770 gr and 60gr 4759 got 1450 fps.
With 75gr Re17 about 1350 fps. Both of these all case will hold under sabot.

For contrast using full bore 730 gr Dixie with just seals under it, much more
powder room, with 95gr 4759 getting 1800 plus and 130 gr RE17 1700 fps.
I went to faster powder, my slowest shotgun powder, Alliant steel, to try to get
speed like full bore slugs get.

These listed are max loads before brass cases expanded to much and started
sticking, due to sharp expansion step, where the base goes to the side with a
real small inside radius on this particular RMC brass case.
47gr Steel,and 770 gr slug 1400 fps.

So I tried the 570 gr US-S with 53gr Steel,and got 1700 fps. Same slug with
65gr 4759 got 1650. You can put in more Steel but cases stick.
And cases expanded that way are hard to resize.

The first 3" brass I got years ago, same problem with
a sharp step expanding above the base. So when I had 3.5" brass made
I had them do a long inside radius from base to the sides. These with extra
room for powder and cushion are much less problem. I think where you have
to use shorter cases, you can use plastic, as a 3" plastic is 2 5/8"
when crimped and will do the same and only be 20 cents or so new.Ed

[hubel458]

Here is picture of a big bolt action a fellow on Homegunsmith
built to put big cases in, for his own use. It is of better looks,
quality than most other single shot actions, of that style being
built by others for sale. And that is absolute
sexiest bolt handle.
Also the fellow made a recess type of die and shaped punch
to make large caliber, copper bullet jackets, from plumbing
copper caps, and then put melted lead into them from
the back. He uses a big hammer, works great.
I got a few different sizes of caps and they are
perfect for bullet jackets. Right from hardware or plumber
supply places. ED
http://www.gunownerstv.com/jaction.jpg
http://www.gunownerstv.com/jbullet.jpg

[hubel458]

Answering questions; bullet jackets from copper tubing
caps. This process makes jacketed slug with covered
nose. With heavy soft jacket as opposed to a
solid turned slug from solid rod or soft lead slug.

1/2" caps can make .700 and 12ga size jackets.
5/8" caps can do 8ga and maybe 10ga jkts.
And 3/4" caps can make 4ga. These cups are
malleable enough to shape into jackets,
without a 20 ton stamping press.

Interesting info about our posting of this subject on
about 5 dozen forums. One big general forum thread,
that we posted some info, has about 5 million views.It is
Mil Photo Forum a big world wide forum..
The top forum of the bunch, with whole thread on it
about 120,000 views, 2nd about 110,000 views, 3rd one
about 104,000 views, 4th one about 102,00 views.
We greatly appreciate all the interest from all
the forums, of all sizes. And all the help
and ideas too...Ed

[hubel458]

You know of the 4 bore we did on falling block,
with its 1 inch bore.Using turned cases and cases
made from 20mm brass. Our cases have a rim and
straight sides. A smith in the EU made a 1 inch bore
gun on a bolt action, using 20mm brass expanded
to take 1 inch bullets. His case has a shoulder to
head space on. It is called the Inch Gun by some.
It is a really nice looking gun, with great
craftsmanship.Ed
http://www.gunownerstv.com/inchgun.jpg

[hubel458]

Here is catchup info on our big bore work
We are doing an 8bore falling block.
Here is picture of the 8ga from back. This action will also
do 12ga FH, 10ga, 700HE, 600NE,50BMG,etc. The breech
block in this and the 4bore are 1 inch thick front to back,
with the width different. The bottom of block is same on all
and uses same linkage and lever; same hammer and trigger.
The 4bore one will do 20mm, as that is what I make
the 4bore brass from. Later hen I do 2bore, breech block will use
same design, but just be wider on the top of the block.
The recoil pads are over 2" thick. I made the stock
from a 2.5" thick blank......mostly by hand.
The other picture shows action with nothing on it
and shows the breach block with extensions that carry
the hammer and trigger.

This action will hold much more pressure that the heavy
built plastic 8ga cases can take , and they are good
to over 20,000 psi. Like a 1000gr at 2500.Ed
http://www.gunownerstv.com/8gafbb.jpg
http://www.gunownerstv.com/emptyact.jpg
http://www.gunownerstv.com/brchside.jpg

[hubel458]

Some more slug ideas--First picture of 10ga 830gr
hollow base slug in 8ga wad cup, And 690gr hollowbase
69 caliber Dixie Gunworks slug that I swaged down a
little, in a 12ga wad cup.
2nd picture is the a new offering from the EU,a
new 300gr US-S slug with locked on base, discarding
petals, by European Cartridge. Accurate in smooth bores.
In 3" plastic they load to over 2100 with shotgun
powders. In a 3.5" plastic and our slower powders
I could get over 2800. Ed
http://www.gunownerstv.com/8gawad.jpg
http://nitroexpress.info/ezine/CptCurlFiles/Paradox_and_Bore_Rifles/elvas/US_S_Slug/p1010011dj.jpg

[hubel458]

Here is picture some folks wanted of our
big cases with smaller 30-06 for comparison.
In picture, 1st my 2ga, 4ga, 8ga, 10ga, 12ga,
my 700HE long case, my 700H 3.25", and 06.

2nd picture is short 2 5/8" brass cases we
are checking loads in, to see how much speed
can be gotten.You can easily see the length of
short full bore lead slug, compared to the
saboted ones, allowing more powder in the short
slug load for more speed..

Now this doesn't mean saboted are no good, or
that I don't like these saboted types. Great for
smooth bores, the US-S with locked on base, are
the best there is, I think, for big game.Just
got to use longer cases. I always felt, that going
longer cases is worth the effort where practical ED

http://www.gunownerstv.com/big06.jpg
http://www.gunownerstv.com/short730.jpg

[hubel458]

In the early days; in my Greener's book he states that
gun with a rifled choke section of the barrel, called
12ga paradox shotgun/rifles, with slugs, heavier powder
charges than shot loads, could hold what amounted to
about 5 inch pattern at 100 yds.

And still had 1800 ft lbs energy at 100yds.
And that is with guns with lighter, weaker barrels
than we have today, so our work is a good extension
of what the early big bore guys did.

And then the 4bore for guys liking a big challenge, 3rd picture...Ed

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v673/rattler_mt/Misc%20stuff/IMG_1844.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v673/rattler_mt/Misc%20stuff/IMG_1845.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v673/rattler_mt/Misc%20stuff/IMG_1846.jpg

[hubel458]

Thanks to rattler on 24hr forum for the old time pictures,
above, and the guys really like them. Quite interesting.

Many have success with all kinds of high-power slug designs and
with extra power, have pushed the reliable range of 12ga slugs/bullets
from 75 yds to over a 150 yds. ...Here is picture from a 1926
Manton catalog showing, 1st picture, many brass case old time slug loads.
Notice the 20bore and 12 bore ones with pointed slugs, seems
as ideas to hotrod 20s and 12s are old hat, not as strong as 12ga FH ....
Both Pictures below from lancaster and CptCurl on Nitroexpress.

2nd picture are saboted slugs, called the SAGA, from Spain,
next to a Brenekke on the right..AS far as I can find only
sold so far as loaded rounds. They look great to reload with
if ever available..

3rd picture is from my Greener book, of double 8ga elephant guns.
You can see various 8 and 4 bores being shot on youtube..Ed

http://nitroexpress.info/ezine/CptCurlFiles/Paradox_and_Bore_Rifles/lancaster/slug_bore_paradox_cartridges/1130013.jpg

http://nitroexpress.info/ezine/CptCurlFiles/Paradox_and_Bore_Rifles/lancaster/slug_bore_paradox_cartridges/1144115.jpg

http://www.gunownerstv.com/gr4.jpg

[gpwasr10]

What the fuck is wrong with you...

LOL

[hubel458]

Some info about our slower powder reloads in plastic and
brass cases with shotgun primers for modern 12ga guns.
I now prefer the IMR 4759 over 4227 as we have had
some delayed firing problems when the loaded cases get
real cold with 4227..And with slower powder loads use
magnum primers.

A side note,in same vein, you know I now use FED239
mag primers in my 8ga and 4ga, but we find they they really
solve the real cold gun, ignition problems, in muzzle loaders
using black powder substitutes, with shotgun primer
inline guns. We tested 50cal and a primer sold especially
for ML when fired,no powder, only saw a tip of the flame
out the barrel, a FED209 mag about 4" flame, buta Fed 239
Mag primer about a foot of flame.

Some more info from the old days, here is picture of
a variety of slugs being promoted and used a century ago.
And 2nd picture Paradox cases old and new.Bottom one is a
modern version sold by H&H for slug hunters.Ed

http://www.gunownerstv.com/gr1.jpg

http://www.gunownerstv.com/parcases.jpg

[Schuetzenman]

What the fuck is wrong with you...

LOL

Hey now, I hope you're poking a little fun with that comment. This thread is a treasure trove of information. Granted it is extremely niche specific in scope but ... it is very rich in information. I look in on this thread as new posts are put in over the years. I hope to see the author contine to add to it as he develops new techniques.

[hubel458]

Here is picture of an early falling block for big bores
called the Field I think. Looks like some other
side levers, looks like lever works forward.

And speaking of falling blocks next picture is the
start or 'fixins' so to speak for the next step
up, for my 2bore. Same design as the 4 and 8
bores only wider.

I am now getting 2.25" OD barrel reamed
out to the two bore size.
And a square hole for breach block done
in that hunk of 4130 steel.

Other experimenting, a while back, when I made
my 585 Short HE from Gibbs cases, I also made a
620 Short HE from Nyati case, of the same design,
IE, head spacing on the mouth and extractor.
Using 600NE .620" diameter bullet and 2.7" long case.
Case could be shorter or longer like the 585 one.
Didn't do much with it as its sides were very straight
only .010" taper of both sides together. Whereas the
585 Short HE had .027" total taper both sides. And any
Nyati brass I got, went to make my 585HE cases..Ed

http://www.gunownerstv.com/gr2.jpg

http://www.gunownerstv.com/start2.jpg

http://www.gunownerstv.com/620she.jpg

Next below is picture sectioned Explora case and slug, showing how
they kept weight down so that it could be stepped up in
speed in older doubles, with just short rifling section at muzzle,
that didn't have real heavy barrels. Second picture from Greener
book here, is of older 4 and 8 gauges.

Third picture shows steps of making 4bore case, one inch bore,
from 20mm. 2nd in picture is case with base turned and swaged
to size which leaves base smaller than rim, for rimmed case.
Then 3rd case has top expanded to take 1" diameter slug.
last shows the thickness and strength of finished case.

Testing factory 20ga Hastings sabot slug 3.5" hotrod loads, and
reloaded with 20ga SPW identical slugs, 390gr, goes about 2200
from 30" heavy barrel. Load was 75gr of 4759.
Factory is about 1900. For regular modern barrels you could
do with 65 gr and get about 2000.Ed

http://www.gunownerstv.com/explora.jpg

http://www.gunownerstv.com/gr3.jpg

http://www.gunownerstv.com/make4.jpg

[hubel458]

We are always looking for way to shoot 8 and 10s
using easy to get components,cheap, without buying
loaded rounds for big bucks, if available at all.

In 8ga falling block, plastic got 930gr hollowbase
slug to 2300, It is a slug for 10 ga that we expanded
base a little to fit tight in 8ga wadcup. On the left in
picture. At 30 yds 3" group. Just with open sight,
About like the 10ga sight bead. There is enough hollow in
the base it flies pretty good from 8ga smooth barrel.

Along same line, in my 10ga 32" smooth bull barrel with a
750 gr .69cal hollowbase Dixie MZ slug in VP100
10ga wadcup about same speed and same accuracy.
Nice to just get a box of slugs that is in stock,
and a 2cent cent wadcup and Fed 3.5" 10ga plastic cases
and be shooting cheap.And the cases roll crimp nice
down to these slugs.

And also the hotrod 20 ga 3.5" Hastings factory loads in
a smooth barrel moderate weight 20ga shoots about
same accuracy even though they say for rifled, but that
SPW slug/wad combo has enough plastic and seal on the back
and to shoot like aBrenekke. The new 28ga Brenekkes
out of 28ga NEF modified choke barrel shoots same at 30yds.
Scoped guns and good eyes would shrink groups.Ed

http://www.gunownerstv.com/8gawad.jpg

[hubel458]

A different, interesting style, of 12ga slug, from Russia.
First picture loaded round, in plastic, roll crimped.
Second, two types of slugs they have on the same base.
Base for rifled barrel, little smaller diameter than the front.
Looks like the roll crimp locks against
the edge of the base. Neat idea, and it could have a
flat meplat slug on the front of the base like
the US-S brass slugs fron Greece are on the
plastic bases that I have here. They must use a crimping
die with a deep hollow up in the middle. We have thought
of taking a roll crimper and putting a deeper recess
in middle to load longer nose slugs further out so as to
have more room for our slower powders.ED

http://www.gunownerstv.com/rucase.jpg

http://www.gunownerstv.com/ruslug.jpg

[hubel458]

Here is picture of 4 long cases of
RIP's on the AR forum.
Top being a Rocky Mtn Cartridge
3.5" turned brass 20ga. In 20ga
getting these and lengthening chambers
allows use of the 3.5" 20ga plastic also.
Some factory guns are 3.5"

Next a RMC 3.5" turned brass 12ga.
Chambered for these you can use
3.5" 12ga plastic also.Some guns are
3.5" from the factory.

3rd down our 3.85" 12ga FH we made from BMG brass.
Bottom a RMC 3.85" turned brass 12ga FH case.

http://www.gunownerstv.com/rip4.jpg


Next picture shows one of the old ways they locked slugs
into paper cases. Many old slugs had a wide deep groove
which made it possible to crimp that way.You can
see one of those slugs in the picture.

http://www.gunownerstv.com/bodycrimp.jpg


Testing 490gr 12ga full bore Lee style slugs in 3.5"
plastic at 2200. Works in the long barrel rifled NEF and
the Khan 12ga 3.5" auto smooth bore.

In same guns the 570gr US-S brass slug with
locked on sabot base at 1900 in 3.5" plastic worked also.
It is great to see a smoothbore slug like the US-S
that is as accurate as fullbore slugs from
rifled barrels.Maybe they will be imported soon
from European Cartridge.Ed

[gpwasr10]

Hey now, I hope you're poking a little fun with that comment. This thread is a treasure trove of information. Granted it is extremely niche specific in scope but ... it is very rich in information. I look in on this thread as new posts are put in over the years. I hope to see the author contine to add to it as he develops new techniques.

Look, I am speaking for the mans shoulder. Hell, someone has to! LOL

[hubel458]

Here are couple more pictures of longer bullets
in sabots, loaded in plastic cases, with the
roll crimp down against the sabot. Both are
ideas tested by European Cartridge in Greece,
who make the US-S slugs. Both longer bullets
pictured have the locked on base that their
other US-S slugs have, for smooth bore accuracy.
2nd picture shows a deep hollow roll crimper
for doing slugs like these.Ed

http://www.gunownerstv.com/pushin.jpg

http://www.gunownerstv.com/usslongnose.jpg

[hubel458]

This picture of an RC4 brand slug I see is available
down under. It has locked base like Brenekke.
And locked on without discarding petals, like US-S.

And 2nd picture is a group fired with RC4 slugs
by fellow on NitroExpress forums from
double 12ga, 2 left and 2 rights at 25yds.
This shows the posibilities of smoothbores,
rather than not trying to perfect them.

3rd picture is a discarding sabot base, and with
four discarding sabot carriers, with centered
penetrating solid bullet, from France.Ed

http://www.gunownerstv.com/rcslug.jpg


http://www.gunownerstv.com/rctarget.jpg


http://www.gunownerstv.com/frsabot.jpg

[hubel458]

Some more slug and sabot ideas folks are doing.

First is a long pointed slug with locked on base,
It goes to target with base,can work smoothbore.

http://www.gunownerstv.com/paraklese.jpg

Second is picture of Hexolit sabot base slug
with petals expanded, sure would make bad wound.

http://www.gunownerstv.com/hexolit.jpg

Third shows a variety of Gualandi slugs you can
get for reloading, and we're finding that these
locked base slugs, Brenekke/USS style slugs, are
giving good accuracy in smooth barrels which can
save when doing heavy barrels.Weights shown in
grams, get our weights in grains multiply by 15.4..Ed

http://www.gunownerstv.com/gualandi.jpg

[hubel458]

Here are some more sabot/slug and loading concepts.

First is Alcan 2.75" paper case with Dixie 600gr slug,
with the side of the case crimped into the relief/lube
groove of the Dixie slug.The groove in the Dixie isn't
quite as deep as the groove in the Fosbury slug shown
in earlier post, but still seems to crimp fairly tight.

http://www.gunownerstv.com/alcan.jpg

Next are various slugs in 12ga REM sabots that take
57 cal slugs and bullets.Those sabots are from the REM
Accutip loadings. In picture you can see one of the
REM 385gr jkt bullets they use. Also is sabot
with 20ga cast Lyman. On right sabot with hardcast 585 cal
640gr lead bullet, the ones I use in my 585HE wildcat
case. I sized it down a little, perfect fit.
Also the .575 cal Dixie Gunworks lead slugs will do.

Also shown is a long pointed 55 Boys bullet in one,
fairly tight fit.We cut back .3" of bullet off so it
fit for length in sabot and is 750gr.

http://www.gunownerstv.com/12ls58.jpg

Third are 3.5" brass and plastic with the REM sabot and
the 750gr pointed slugs in them.In all the sabot work we
and others have done, trying to get accuracy and high
speeds together, maybe there is such a thing as too
much plastic. IE, sabots too thick on the sides if doing
50cal or smaller in 12ga sabots, for heavier slugs
at high speeds. Thinner sides may discard more evenly at
the greater pressures and violence of high speeds.
Thin sides may have less give so that sabot grips slug
better to impart spin in rifled use. Example in
smoothbore use is the USS slugs, where the brass slug
is .629" with thin discarding petals that have proven to
be very accurate. And with both reasonable priced sabot
offerings the last few years being undersize, accuracy
problems, etc, maybe time to try something else.

Got to find whole bunch of these sabots. Are these pictured
12ga REMs the only 58cal ones around? I can't find others,
and maybe we can find where these are made. As I have
huge numbers of the 585 slugs, which by the way I think
is best hunting combination, without extremely heavy slugs
which suffer for the speeds needed for longer range use.
It is hard lead, good for big game.And my guy can make many,
many more if needed whether for 585HE rifles
or in sabots if we can find some.ED

http://www.gunownerstv.com/55sabot.jpg

[hubel458]

Some more sabot and slug ideas, discarding types
and locked on base types.

First picture of 20ga Buckhamer pulled apart. The bunch
I have were pulled apart, the slug won't lock back in
tight, into the base.

http://www.gunownerstv.com/buckha20.jpg

Second is various 20ga sabot/slug ideas some using
buckhammer sabot bases that a bunch of 458 cal lead
slugs and jackted slugs I have, lock into real tight.
The 458 lead ones are 400gr, jkt are 350gr.

And I got some empty SPW 20 gauge sabots, and 20ga
Buckhammer slugs lock into them real tight.I have
many of these slugs. These slugs are 440gr.

Also is 3" 20ga FED factory sabot shell and one of
discarding sabots out of the case. Also a 3.5" 20ga
Hastings 3.5" load with black locked on base sabot,
and sabots out of the case and couple 20 brass
3.5" RMC cases.

http://www.gunownerstv.com/20sabsl.jpg

Next is variety of 12ga sabots with 50cal slugs
in them.2 white and the pink sabot are FED, The black
is Hornady, With a 50cal long bullet .
The grey, is a BPI with .504" cast 440gr slug.
I wish the BPI was full size like the others
and fit rifled barrels tight for accuracy.........

http://www.gunownerstv.com/12ls50.jpg

Last 12ga SPWs from Slug-R-US(30 cents ea) with various
50 cal slugs locked in tight, and shown with one out of
a factory load, the dark colored one. 50cal 385gr
Great Plains ML slugs lock in perfect for a lighter
loading. Other ML slugs will do and a few of
the Dixie Gunworks 50cal slugs lock in also...Ed


http://www.gunownerstv.com/12spws.jpg

[Prometheus168]

This thread gives me a stiffie


Rusty

[Tx Dogblaster]

This thread has had me intrigued since the beginning! I'd love to have one of those brass cased bad boys in my cartridge collection...

[hubel458]

Some more slug setups and ideas.

First is USS brand sabot that European cartridge has, without
locked base, a discarding 12ga sabot, with .629" brass slug.
It is as accurate in rifled barrel as its locked on base
counterpart, in smooth barrels. Up to 750 gr brass slug
I tested. 3 shots in an inch, 30yds.
Shown with BPI powder cup seals.

http://www.gunownerstv.com/4uss.jpg



2nd is the USS slugs with locked on base for comparison.
With corresponding length cases they were designed for.

http://www.gunownerstv.com/eucart.jpg



3rd are heavy solid tungsten slugs, the smaller .580" cal and
1200gr, the bigger ones .660" cal and 2200 gr.
A guy in Southern MI made a few for me to check out. Now these
too hard to fire fullbore, damage rifling, must be in plastic.
These are just what the super heavy slug guys might like.

http://www.gunownerstv.com/tung.jpg



4th is a 1000gr 58cal tungsten slug in a 12ga REM style
58cal sabot. Notice how short it is for being super heavy.

http://www.gunownerstv.com/tungsab.jpg

[hubel458]

Here is some more older cartridges and ideas.
First is a fellows collection of older brass cases.
They look like Berdan primed. Run from
36ga to 12ga, big one on right is flare cartridge.

http://www.gunownerstv.com/36-12brass.jpg

Second is a paper case clad with
thin brass nearly to the top.

http://www.gunownerstv.com/paperbrass.jpg

Third is picture of paper case crimped into
the side of a slug with shallow grooves.I did one
pictured above with a Dixie slug.

http://www.gunownerstv.com/papercrimp.jpg

Some experimenting with 12ga discarding style sabot idea
that takes 58cal slugs/bullets.I pictured them above.
A fullbore,bore fitting sabot that takes 575-580 cal
slugs or bullets, cast or jacketed.

For reloaders to use, and not undersize ones
that have been available, for reloading guys. That
the guys haven't been able to get speed and accuracy
at the same time. These sabots are super accurate in
most tests, in factory Remington sabot loads. Much
more so than the undersize sabots reloaders have
had to work with.

I tested with the 440 gr .575cal hollowbase
Dixie Gunworks # BA-1103 lead slug and 3 shots from
heavy long barrel NEF nearly into same hole, at
30yds. Gun locked down. Going about 2200.
Our slow powder loads in 3.5" plastic.
Can be loaded faster.

No tests at long range, bad eyes/no scope, colder
than witches ---, and no time.
I am trying to find who makes these.There are
about 2000 injection mold companies in US

http://www.gunownerstv.com/12ls58.jpg

[hubel458]

Another 12ga sabot idea, first picture is a 570 gr USS slug,
with Powder Cup seal from BPI, locked to USS discarding sabot
section. This shortens column so that we can get more of the
slower powders in we use, in shorter 2.75" cases. With slower
powders, they get to peak pressure a little easier
so that the cushion usually between seal and sabot/slugs
isn't needed. This locked on seal will aid in smoothbore
accuracy and it will work of course in rifled barrels.
This sabot has a peg on the back that locks it in original
setup to the green USS cushion base/seal, and we just pried
it apart and drilled tight hole to match in the Powder Cup
seal, and forced it on for a locked fit..
Slug is .629" diameter.

http://www.gunownerstv.com/usshort.jpg

Next picture is 3 sizes of first USS sabot slugs, with
the locked on bases which work good with them. Giving
nearly rifle accurracy in smooth bores.

http://www.gunownerstv.com/6uss.jpg

Here is old time picture of couple of Rodda 4 bores.
Man what nice old guns.

http://www.gunownerstv.com/rodda4.jpg

Next picture is a 1.5" Minie ball slug, might work for
close to a one gauge. It is next to older 37mm case which
might fire it also. Maybe a way to make a one gauge of
sorts, if.......I get enough ambition...Ed

http://www.gunownerstv.com/15minie.jpg

[5.56NATO]

lordamighty!

[hubel458]

Some more 12ga sabot work. The sabots in first picture are
like ones we want to get made for reloading.
They have 440gr Dixie Gunworks muzzleloading minie slug.
I related earlier that 3 shots with these in heavy rifled
barrel NEF got them all in nearly the same hole, at 30 yds.
Also 4 shots same distance, a 3 inch best group, smooth barrel.
The slight hollow base helps with smooth barrel. The hollow
base isn't as deep say as a 12ga foster slug.Another one they
have, a little heavier, with little deeper hollow base should
make tighter group. Loads in 3.5" plastic going about 2200.

http://www.gunownerstv.com/12ga58dixie.jpg

Second picture shows something new I found out.It shows two
different wad setups. When I took the REM Accutip loads apart
I notice they used a thick seal, old style white felt cushion.
All the tests I read about that factory load, says it is always
near the top in accuracy. I had used the BPGS and flexseal
cushion mostly, as it seals real good. But in the smoothbore
test above the thick seal and felt wad gave the 3" group and
the other wad setup 5". The smoothbore, which isn't a perfect
system, for slugs not designed for smooth, worked out to show
and magnify difference between the two wad setups..

What first clued me in on this, to make a check, was recent
weeks research on net,on all sabot patents, where I read that
sometimes plastic cushions cock a little affecting accuracy.
That is the plastic cushions with a lot of space in them.
Where the felt/fiber cushions stay much more stable for a bigger
percentage of shots.The very accurate Hornady SST sabot has no
cushion at all between seal and sabot, but a thin rubber cushion
disc inside their sabot, and the above may be one reason.
The Federal Fusion sabots and the Federal Expander sabot
both are accurate--they don't have a wide open plastic cushion.

http://www.gunownerstv.com/12ga58wads.jpg

Third picture is of a Greener Martini slug gun a guy rigged up
with a heavy rifled bull barrel in 12ga. Great looking gun.

http://www.gunownerstv.com/martinislug.jpg

Finally thoughts about all of our posts on many forums(110)
around the net. We are very happy with the response and help
we get doing this. We feel this thread a positive boon and help
to shooters interested in big bores, and by venturing into
the big bore areas will promote more guys getting into shooting,
reloading, smithing, etc. And a measure of interest are the views.
All sites including a big picture site, have about 9 million views.
And also we congratulate the 24hr Campfire Big Bore as being
being the first with our regular 12ga FH thread to go
over 200,000 views.Next is the Highroad with nearly 150,000,
third is the Firingline with nearly 125,000, 4th Accurate
Reloading 112,000, and 5th WeaponsForum 106,000.ED

[hubel458]

Some possibilities with the 12ga sabots we have been
looking at. We may have possible leads on companies that
can make sabots, that have most of equipment to do so.
If they work out ok, the startup cost isn't as
high as others who have to set up complete machines.
We are working to line up a dealer who will get good ones
made, at one of these sabot making companies.WE hope to
have similiar design as the ones pictured below
but with slightly thicker base. I've sent these sabots
with Dixie cast slugs to different companies to show
what is needed, and what the full size specs should be.
With Dixie cast in they are similiar to Federal
Fusion sabots with lead slugs, only our slugs are 58cal.
We will keep you informed on what happens. At least 5
58cal slugs that Dixie has, looks maybe to work in these,
as best I can tell. And there are a few molds for
58cal cast slugs, by different companies.
The possibilities are, to reload with decent price slugs
and simple inexpensive sabot like these, for buck a round.
40-60 cent slug, 15-20 cent sabot, powder/primer 30 cents.

http://www.gunownerstv.com/12ga58dixie.jpg

Those sabots I pictured above we been testing, had 385gr
Remington plastic nose bullets. I used some in my
585HE and I get them to 3900 fps. Just to see how
fast was possible in the 585. If I shot them in
my biggest 585, the 585 HSM, they'd go about 4500 or so.
They are real light compared to 750gr 585 cal bullets.
Like a varmint round. Do up a coyote fine.All skinned.

http://www.gunownerstv.com/585remslug.jpg

Some neat guns-First is a 20ga smooth bore Beretta style
break action 20ga. This is one of the greatest style
break actions there is. Beretta made their trap guns on
actions like this and great value for no more
than they cost. This one only 100 bucks.
We lengthened chamber to 3.5" so it can
use various 20ga smoothbore slug loads that we are
working on and testing..The SPW, Hastings, Lightfield
type 20ga slugs have decent 50yd accuracy in heavier
smooth barrels.

http://www.gunownerstv.com/sile20.jpg

Next is couple of older guns I found pictures of,
a 4bore Hughes and a 600NE Wilke. I like them.
2nd is special 20ga double that poster Nitro 450 Express
on the NitroExpress forum had built. Great job
on nice looking slug gun.Ed


http://www.gunownerstv.com/4bor600n.jpg

http://www.gunownerstv.com/ne450ex20.jpg

[hubel458]

The sabots we are working with, take at least 15 different
58cal cast slugs for good fit, with the OD measurement of
sabot at .733" with all of them in. There are 5 Dixie
Gunworks MZ slugs, 6 slugs from Lyman moulds I know of.
Five slugs from Lee moulds.These are mainly muzzleloading
slugs and can be cast varying hardnesses.

Examples-58cal (.575"- .578")
Lee molds for 500gr, 460 gr, 350gr, etc, slugs
Dixie Gunworks slugs of 440gr, 375gr, 490gr, etc, weights.
Lyman 530gr, 510 gr, 460gr, 400gr, 315gr, etc.
And they are all good slugs at a saving especially
when folks cast their own.

I'm getting out info on these to see if any reloading
suppliers will try to get some made, so we will have a
quality, proper OD size sabot, to reload with.

http://www.gunownerstv.com/12ga58dixie.jpg

From the research on sabot patents and testing by various
of our readers, the sabots can't be undersize, or accuracy
at high speeds isn't possible. I get questions about how
to reload them for accurate fast loads in plastic cases
for regular hunting and target use. Have to tell them we need
to have proper OD size sabot.. Most want sabot loads and not
fullbore cast....Why; they want lighter for less recoil in
regular weight guns, they figure smaller slugs cheaper,
they won't have leading with sabots if using cast, don't
have to lube and don't need gas checks if cast, cast slugs
for sabot use cheaper than jacketed. These parameters cover
a lot of shotgun only deer hunters trying to afford doing
their own loads, trying to be as accurate as expensive
factory sabot stuff and hoping the savings will allow much
more shooting.In the 1st is 440gr 58cal Dixie, and second,
one I like better a 510gr from Lyman mould. Third slug from
a Lee 460gr 58cal mould. 4th is various 58cal slug ideas.
Behind are Lyman and Lee 58cal molds. Got more coming of
different 58cal weights, clear down to 315gr. My casting
friend will get them and as soon a we get somebody making
the sabot, he can aid the cause by making slugs.
Some of the Lyman and Lee slugs are more streamlined than
modst big bore rifle bullets as you can see in picture.

http://www.gunownerstv.com/12ga58dif.jpg

Here is picture of a nice Armi San Marco 20ga break action
we found, that we're testing loads in. I really like
the style of this gun. I'm going to have extra barrel setup,
an extra heavy 585cal barrel and put my long 585HE in it,
to go along the other 585HE single shots 585HEs we have
setup on NEFs, and CBCs.

http://www.gunownerstv.com/cva20.jpg

Here is a picture of nice Greener Martini 12ga, with new stock,
and a heavy rifled bull barrel, a fellow redid.
Such great work. And very accurate. All these guns need like
all singleshots, including break actions, are heavy barrels
and they shoot great and are easy to shoot with the
extra weight.

http://www.gunownerstv.com/450greener.jpg

[hubel458]

Here are a couple high speed, stop frame photos, showing how well
and even these sabots we want to get made, open up.
The petals being thinner with 58 cal bullets or slugs, opens easy.
The slots between petals, going into the base aids even opening.
We know a couple retailers that are interested in selling these
style of sabots, if they round up the money to get the
aquipment setup. Shooting supply companies are down some
due the economy.

http://www.gunownerstv.com/sabopen.jpg

http://www.gunownerstv.com/sabopen2.jpg

Third is the 585 HE project, using a Savage 110-112 bolt action.
Shown with barrel threaded and screwing action on.
And the action is long enough to make a single stack mag, if we
want, that would feed, with a little work, our 585 HE long case.

http://www.gunownerstv.com/585savredo.jpg

4th & 5th; pictures are of a old time 20 gauge, double slug and shot
gun that was priced little less than the big name English ones.
It is a Husqvarna double. Nice gun, we'd really have fun with modern
20ga slug shooting using this ..Ed

http://www.gunownerstv.com/husq.jpg

http://www.gunownerstv.com/husqmuz.jpg

[fivehundred333]

wow looks amazing
http://www.armslist.com/?utm_source=c000019&utm_medium=plink&utm_campaign=p025017

[hubel458]

Some info we have found out about the operation of discarding sabots.
In first picture you see thin white line between the strong powder
and the sabot. It is the white fiber cushion wad pressed flat. It is
shown on the left in second picture. In the picture of it compressed
you see it is pushing squarely on the sabot. This is most important
wheh the sabot and slug exit barrel to get the slug started as
straight as possible for accuracy.

Other types of plastic cushions aid in sealing and help get best
velocities but the rolls and legs in them can allow them to side shift
which can affect how straight the sabot is on exit, thus causing the
slug to deviate. The gray sabots we tried had cushion on the bottom
of them and inspecting them after firing you could see they were pushed
sideway some of the time. That is why we are trying to get tight
fitting simple sabots built and recommend using heavy plastic seals
with fiber wads to have least deviation and best accuracy.

http://www.gunownerstv.com/sabopen2.jpg


http://www.gunownerstv.com/12ga58wads.jpg


Third picture is our steel block we are using for 2bore
with breach hole we got EDM'd into it.

http://www.gunownerstv.com/2gno3.jpg

Fourth picture is an old time Kynoch round called the
"Lethal" and the "destructor".

http://www.gunownerstv.com/destructor.jpg


Fifth picture is a H&H underlever double 8bore.
Nice beautifal old gun.Ed

http://www.gunownerstv.com/hh8bore.jpg

[hubel458]

I think we found good overall sabot design that will
be the easiest to get made, easiest to get seals
and whatever wads needed... Keeping design simple.
It is same simple design as the ones pictured above
but with slightly thicker base.It is fairly compact
for more room for our slow powder loads, and when
using slower powders, we don't need as much cushioning
which makes the room for the powder. Larger charges
of slower powder, better velocity with less case
expansion, and more reloads possible.

We hadn't tested soft lead 58cal slugs in 12ga sabots
for penetration until now.. They did very well,
two different 440 gr ones, going though 4 inch dried
timber, pushing out some wood on the back.
Shows they are just starting to expand.Should do great
for deer and hogs. Going 2200 in long barrel NEF.
Have pictures later. A 58cal slug at good speed is
nothing to look down on. Many African hunters liked
that caliber in their 577 doubles for big game.
Slugs can be loaded faster, cast heavier,
and cast harder for any need.And compared to other
way of getting slugs out of a shotgun, once
we have good fullbore sabots, we save on needing
bullet lube, gas checks, cheaper to get, no barrel
leading, much better BC in the same weight of slugs
compared to short fullbore ones....


Here are pictures of molds that can make cast
58cal slugs for the 12ga sabot we are working
on.There are many makers and brands and styles
of molds and weights available.

http://www.gunownerstv.com/mold58-1.jpg

http://www.gunownerstv.com/mold58-2.jpg


Here is picture of a 10ga wadcup with a 730gr hollowbase
lead slug in on the left .In my heavy barrel 10ga smoothbore
I got 6" group at 50 yds. If we made hollow in the base
bigger it would be more accurate in smooth barrel.
The slug is .69cal one,measures .686"(from Lymam mold
like in picture), that Dixie Gunworks has. I bumped up the
diameter about .015" --wadcup is BPI VP100.

http://www.gunownerstv.com/10ga690.jpg


Here is picture of a nice 8ga double a fellow has.
Great looking gun..Ed

http://www.gunownerstv.com/wil8ga.jpg

[hubel458]

Working more with 58cal lead slugs in 12ga sabot we want
to get built. We shot a few for checking penetration,
with 440gr slugs at 2200 plus fps. Shooting into popple.
In picture the 6x6 on the left penetrated by harder lead
alloy slug, with slug showing very little expansion on
exit from the 6x6, On the right, soft pure lead slug through
a 4x6 starting to show expansion on exit. These slugs can be
gotten or cast your own to about any hardess needed.
They can even be heat treated to be as hard as jacketed.
I have rounded up 9 different ones very easy, shown in
2nd picture and there are more. Ones in picture range
from 400gr to 530 gr. There are molds to make them
down to 350 gr and less.

http://www.gunownerstv.com/58calpen.jpg

http://www.gunownerstv.com/58allslugs.jpg

Here is picture, on left of Accutip sabot we been taking out
of loaded rounds and testing 58cal lead slugs with,
and right a hard plastic sabot model, we are working on
to see how slugs fit and how it looks, and how
it compares to the Accutip and other sabots we have
here from WIN, REM, FED, Hornady.

http://www.gunownerstv.com/two58sabots.jpg

In picture is a really neat, very strong, 10ga Beretta style
gun we got. Its barrel is heavier at the muzzle than most
all 10 gauges we've seen except the NEF with bull barrel.
Made by Pedretti, has top lever to open, instead bottom
lever like Beretta or the Investarm 20ga we showed above.
Going to make into switch barrel for 10ga and monoblock one
in 585HE later. Have 2 barrels for it. Has nice big pad we put
on it and it is weighted to 12 lbs in 10ga..

http://www.gunownerstv.com/ped10.jpg

Now for some internal ballistics comparisons.There is formula
for figuring appoximate Average Barrel Pressure,

You take Muzzle Energy times 12......and divide it by

the BORE Area in sq in, times the length of the barrel in inches.

Examples- you have a 458 WIN, my 585HE and 12ga 3.5"--
all at 5000 Ft Lbs of energy which for 458 be standard load.
The 585HE in this mode would be burning close to charcoal.
The 12ga 3.5 would be 440gr slug in sabot at 2200 plus.

The 458 Ave Barrel Pressure is about 16,000 psi.
The 585HE Ave Barrel Pressure is about 8,000 psi.
The 3.5 12ga Ave Barrel Pressure about 5,200 psi.

The purpose of this-- To show the possibilites of big bores.
Ok you can't go much higher with 458WIN, about 80gr of powder

But 585HE you can get way over 10,000 ft lbs,with 180gr powder
it holds running at 458WIN Ave Barrel pressure.

AND 12ga and 3.5" brass case in Savage 210, slow powder loads,
heavy barrel, you can get over 10,000 ft lb. with 180gr powder
at much less than 458Win Ave Barrel Pressure.
Possibilities are really great fun. Ed

[hubel458]

Some 12ga sabot progress. Here is pic of our sabot model, two
in front, shown with Accutip sabot behind. They are all holding
58cal slugs, showing how tight they fit and conform
to the inside of the sabot petals. A decent fit is a help
for better accuracy. Hope they get built for us this summer.
We are working on it.

http://www.gunownerstv.com/side58sabot.jpg


Second picture is from a fellow who put 58cal cast slugs in a
thinwall 20ga shotcup and shot this at 50 yds. This with first
load he tried. Great accuracy for so many shots. This shows
great possibilities with 58cal slugs, and should even do better
in the 12ga sabot like the above we like. I've heard about BP
guys who got into 58cal that they get good accuracy.

http://www.gunownerstv.com/20gatarget.jpg


Here is picture of some the grey bls sabots showing the way
they have got bent and beat up, and shows what I and many
others have found; that plastic cushions can bend and twist
and shift, affecting the slug on leaving the barrel, affecting
the accuracy.

http://www.gunownerstv.com/firedBLS.jpg


On a future work, I'm doing a Greener Martini in my 585HE long
case, Here is picture of a parts action with a stock idea
I'm experimenting with. Might use this or regular pistol grip.

http://www.gunownerstv.com/oldgreener.jpg

[Schuetzenman]

Amazing work.

[hubel458]

Back after losing time to a lightning fried computer.

Test in 3.5" plastic using a few accutip 12ga sabots out of factory loads.
The 12ga accutip sabot, hard cast 440gr 58cal minie slug in
36" rifled NEF at 2200, and it went through 12 inches of wood like
butter. The hole out showed it was starting to expand a little.

Test of softer lead 500gr 58cal Minie with deeper hollowbase in accutip
in smooth cylinder bore barrel at 2000, and 3 shots in 3" at 30 yds.
This was a Lyman 575213 new style minie slug
More experimenting can make these work fair in smooth barrels.
For best accuracy use a blunt nose heavier 58cal 600gr slug with
deepest hollow in the base. The blunt nose would be more front end
heavy and a little more accurate from smooth bore..
Lee and Lyman have molds like that.Others selling slugs also.

I mentioned before about seals/wads must be stable and not crush
down off center, or it might affect accuracy. Here is picture of
the one piece seal and wad Federal uses in their sabot loads.
Notice it doesn't have a lot of space in the cushion part that would
allow it to tip or go off center.

http://www.gunownerstv.com/fedseal.jpg

Here is picture of some 10ga work using expanded 69cal minie and
700cal bullets in 10ga wadcup. 69cal hollowbase fairly accurate to
50yds in heavy barrel smoothbore.

http://www.gunownerstv.com/10wadcup.jpg

Here is picture of the Savage 110 done in my 585HE. Hollow butt of the
stock is weighted, gun handles nice.Ed

http://www.gunownerstv.com/sav585.jpg

[hubel458]

With an other scoped NEF Ultra 12ga, 24 inch
barrel, shot hard cast, 400 gr 58cal Lyman Minie
in Accutip sabot at 75 yds. Hit small paper plate
5 for 5. Going 2000fps.

Speaking of 585HE above. We have two in falling blocks,
10 bolt guns,5 break actions, and other types.
A fun cartridge, and now that we are working with
58cal slugs in 12ga sabots, 58 cal is where it is at..
And now we are getting a run of 585HE cases made.
Bertram getting ready to make the last die;
done later this month and will be doing cases then.
Cases are 3 bucks each, bulk shipping included.
He usually charges 5 or more for wildcats, but as
I'm furnishing final sizing die, and he will ship
by bulk freight saving him handling, and he had
a couple tools already to use, he said $3 each, a
real good deal..

He will ship whole bulk order to me.
I will pass them on to everyone buying in first run.
I'll will get a bunch also, to load for others,
to fill orders, and collectors. Get 100 for 300 bucks,
or be a 500 guy buying a 167 cases for 500 bucks.
I'm having guys just make out MO to Bertram Bullets
and get it to me and I send them on to him.
I'll keep track of who gets what and ship cases to
the guys helping with first run, no shipping charge.
Want to make the run as big as possible. Got
money ready to go for over 700.
Like to get 3-4 times as many made if possible.Ed

[hubel458]

Sorry, late in posting, bad weather, computer lines zapped again.

Some more experimenting with the Accutip sabots, Designed a
two ball load using .577" cast lead balls. Bottom ball flattened a
little in vise with the flats up and down in sabot.
Used a fold crimp, 3.5" once fired REM case in NEF, long rifled
barrel.....Fold crimp goes down on the top ball...Round
balls 285gr each, going about 1900 hit within 2 inches at 30 yds.

Those 58 cal inside Accutip sabots are really versatile.
Tested 3 shots with 58cal Buffalo hollowpoint, hollowbase, lead,
muzzleloading slugs, 2" at 30yds. All loads with plastic x12x
seal and white felt cushion under sabot.

Experimenting with an Enfield, had one set up with my 700HE 3.25,
and just did one in my longer 700HE. Did a little longer port and
added little more weight.First picture. 2nd picture is a neat 3 barrel
16ga, which if I had it,deepen chamber, I'd have a neat 16ga FH....Ed

http://www.gunownerstv.com/en700he.jpg

http://www.gunownerstv.com/triple16.jpg

PS---We are gaining on getting the big run of brass made for our 585HE.
He is finishing the tooling and soon be producing. We want make the run
as big as possible so everyone is welcome to help. You in US get in on
first order, cases are $3 each.Those in the US he'll send whole order to
me bulk freight, a big savings, and I'll get them to the parties involved,
no charge for helping out on first run.The $3 cost is a great bargain
compared to other big bore cases. For if you buy 150 or so you've saved
enough, over the cost of others to buy a barrel to make 585HE gun with.
My contact--- gunowner at journey.com

For those in Australia,Canada,South Africa,UK, and other countres
make arraingements with Bertram to send cases directly to you.
We can't afford export costs to send cases back out of the US
due to costly permits.and goofy gun laws.............


.

[hubel458]

Here is picture of the two ball sabot load, using two
58cal balls in a 12ga Accutip style sabot.

http://www.gunownerstv.com/58ballsabot.jpg

Hoping we will have sabot like above for reloading soon,
in volumn so we can load and test a bunch of these 58cal
bullets and slugs. There are soft cast, hard cast, and
the heavier jacketed. These all work in my 585HE also.
The 440gr hollowbase ones loose in the big box on left
measure in at .585" and work great in my 585HE cases.

http://www.gunownerstv.com/all58sl.jpg

Part of my 585HEs are smooth barrels guns
just for testing the different style guns, and different loads.
In the one smooth barreled one I have on BBK action, shooting
my 585HE with 440 gr hollowbased Minie slug, we were hitting
8 inch paper plate with them going about 2700 at 30yds.
Hollowbased they act like shotgun slug at short ranges.

Will be neat deal to shoot them in 12ga accutip style sabots in
rifled 12 gauges and the smoothbore 585HEs with $30 barrels.
Here is picture of Pedretti(Beretta style) that came as 10ga. I
have monoblocked in 585 barrel. In picture there is 585HE case
partly out of chamber. I have extra fairly heavy 10ga barrel
also and changes in 2 minutes. And that monoblock break
action locks up like a bank vault.Real strong.

http://www.gunownerstv.com/ped585.jpg



And an ultimate big bore from history.ED

http://www.gunownerstv.com/railgun.jpg

[hubel458]

We hope a company will be making our modeled 12ga sabots
soon, this fall, to deliver to reloaders and suppliers..
We also got first part of funds collected for the initial big run
for our 585HE long cases being made. Sending in bunch
this week, and need more to make run bigger For more info
if your interested contact me.

We, others, and 'VdoMemorie' on the Cast Bullet forums
and Shotgun World are experimenting with 58cal Minie slugs and
58cal round balls in 20ga wadcups, and find it is away to slug
load your 20ga economically. You can use 20ga Commander wad and
also shorter "sporting 20 short" wad from BPI. I cut bottom off of
commander and use felt wads and 20ga obturator seal with .575"
470gr minie slug and got 4" group at 30 yds, with smooth barrel.
That is with heavy thick,smooth barrel I put in CBC below.

Here is picture of the CBC break action that I mono-blocked in smooth
super heavy, thick 20ga barrel..30" long, chambered for 3.5" cases.
Works great with 3.5" plastic or brass cases.

http://www.gunownerstv.com/20gacbc.jpg

Here is picture of the 1887 WIn with my 585HE in it. I put in a
heavy barrel and different kind of extractor Barrel is 28"..
I like putting my 585HE in all the old style of guns, just
to show all the uses the case has.

http://www.gunownerstv.com/585in87.jpg

I found supply of super long bmg cases to make my 700HE Long cases.
It is 4.27" long and holds over 370 gr ball powder, 1000gr at 3400 plus.
I have it in my Vulcan BMG bolt action and I just got one done in
a MRC PH bolt gun, in picture below...Ed


http://www.gunownerstv.com/ph700helong.jpg

[hubel458]

I found pics of a factory 12ga over under that
has bottom barrel rifled, top one smooth with
chokes. Will have pics few days. Don't know how
heavy the rifled barrel is yet.

Also will have pics and testing of
585HE case samples from the first run
of my 585HE cases, Bertram is doing.ED

[hubel458]

Here is breach picture of that 12ga O/U made by Armi-Lumar
It has the bottom barrel rifled right from factory, top barrel smooth,
with interchangeble chokes. A real neat gun.

http://www.gunownerstv.com/armi-lumar.jpg

Good news, I got few samples of first production run of my 585HE
cases from Bertram, to test for strength and measure for uniformity.
They all measure perfect and especially the belt length headspace.
He made part of the run, a 1000, without headstamp..And over 3000
with headstamp. Cases only 3 bucks each if you get in on the first
shipment right away..Ship by mail to US cost too much, $1.50 each,
so we will have a bulk freight shipment to US as big as possible.
Folks in other countries order direct from Bertram.

This case can be used in different style guns.,
Bolt, Falling blocks, Break actions, Etc. I have reamers, and dies.
Manson Reamer can make more reamers,CH4D has dies also.
Earlier in thread I've shown various 585HE guns we have set up. Here
is a break action, with 585 barrel monoblocked in, one my favorites,
we just got done.

http://www.gunownerstv.com/585mt1.jpg


I tested 585HE moderate loads(650gr @ 2400) in NEF, CBC, Pedretti,
etc, break actions and didn't need sizing on the bottom 2/3. Real
tough built cases. Cases, are real uniform. For high test loads we
fired couple with 650gr at 3000 in Enfield bolt action, and it extracted
ok, and resized ok back to specs. About a 62k psi load. Pockets tight.

First picture, shown is some he made without headstamp that I stamped,
and some with stamp and ones I made on the right..
Also they can be used for wildcats, shorter cases, etc, and folks can stamp
what they want. 2nd picture you see them in a regular # 31 shellholder,
they don't need a special holder.

In 3rd picture of sectioned cases, you can see how strong the cases are
in base and corners, strong like the ones I made, on the left in picture,
which were real strong cases, that worked great with max loads..
The new 585 from Bertram on the right in picture.Nice strong base/corners.
He supplies same base cases for 408 Cheytac, used with hot sniper loads
that run real high average pressures..He will be manufacturing
these Cheytac runs regular, so we can get ours made anytime
we get money built up for an order..Ed



http://www.gunownerstv.com/new585head.jpg

http://www.gunownerstv.com/new585hold.jpg

http://www.gunownerstv.com/new585sec.jpg

[hubel458]

Here is overall view of the Armi-Lumar O/U 12ga that has
one barrel rifled. Second is another view of the breach.
Nice looking gun.

http://www.gunownerstv.com/armi-lumar3.jpg

http://www.gunownerstv.com/armi-lumar2.jpg

Here is picture of the 58cal Minie bullets in 20ga BPI Commander
shotcup wads, and some 50cal bullets in 20ga BPI Sport shotcups.
Sport wads were too small inside and to tapered inside for 58 cal.
Other two are 458 bullets in a non-discarding base that had SPW,
Buckhamer type slugs in them, that someone took apart, that I got.
And one 100yd group shot by Ajay on ShotgunWorld with Sav 220
20ga, with 20ga Commander wad and 58cal cast Minie bullets
measured about 2 inches. Four shots in two inches.Ed

http://www.gunownerstv.com/20gasport.jpg

[Schuetzenman]

Nice work, very informative. Thanks for posting.

[hubel458]

First is picture of the 8ga Falling Block with texturized paint finish
on the stock. It enhances the grip quite a bit on hard recoil guns.

http://www.gunownerstv.com/8gafinish.jpg

Second is the Greener that I have my 585 HE in.Also have
12ga barrel for it..

http://www.gunownerstv.com/585greener.jpg

Third is Magtech singleshot action that I'm experimenting
with putting on a thumbhole stock.

http://www.gunownerstv.com/585mt2.jpg

Fourth are the long bmg bulleted blank cases that I found, to use to
make my 700HE Long case, 4.27" long. I have few extra sets of
five in links like shown, extra to sell 5 at a time in links,
if some need them for their collections, etc... Ed

http://www.gunownerstv.com/bmgblanks.jpg

[hubel458]

In our research to find economical and easy to use setups to load
various slug/sabot combos in 12, 20 and other gauges, you've
seen what we are doing with 58cal slugs in 12ga accutip type sabot we
are getting built, and 58cal slugs in 20ga BPI Commander shotwad.
You've seen pics of group shot by Ajay 58cal in 20ga Commander wad.
And Greg Sappington made 16ga HP slug that fit 12ga BPI CSD wad.
CSD wads are little thicker. In that vein we found another 20 ga combo
that uses the BPI 20ga CSD wads and larger diameter of the 54cal
muzzleloading slugs. Wad is thick and short so we can get the
volumne of our slow powder we want in the loads for higher speeds.
And base of CSD 20ga wad is thicker and stronger than most wads.
. It doesn't have built on cushion, doesn't need cushion, which is not
needed for slow powder loads. Has a good built on powder seal.
It is long so it can be cut to fit any 54cal slug length.
Best 54cal slugs to use are .543" and up.
There is .548" Sharps style 2nd in picture from Dixie Gunworks.There is
54cal Great Plains in picture on left, Far right in picture is 550 Magnum
jacketed bullets in 20ga CSD. Great for hogs, bear. There are a variety
of 54cal slugs you can cast or buy. Not big number like 58cal, but enough
to find good simple combo. Shot 3" group with 54cal Great Plains in
CSD at 30 yds, smooth bore. 380gr going over 2000 fps.
Second picture shows they even work and fit good in 20ga RMC brass.
Fits in a brass case real tight with .548" Sharps style slug in picture..

http://www.gunownerstv.com/csd20.jpg

http://www.gunownerstv.com/csd20-2.jpg

Third picture shows how we mono-block 585HE barrels into strong
singleshot break actions. Done it in NEFs, CBCs, Pedretti, Beretta,
and the Magtech 199 shown above.

http://www.gunownerstv.com/monostub.jpg

Fourth picture is the O/U Tristar with 585HE on top and 3.5" 12ga bottom.
We sleeved the top barrel with .585" ID sleeve. We will use it with
the 58cal .585" Minie hollowbase slugs. Bottom just for shot loads
with a interchangeable chokes. Ed

http://www.gunownerstv.com/585ou.jpg

[hubel458]

Little work on non-discarding 12ga sabots,You can get SPW
wads without slugs in them and we set up one for a light load.
We put a 20ga Lyman in some and they stay together ok. Just
shorten the bottom skirt of Lyman and bevel the bottom corner.
Total weight sabot and all is 360gr,,Shown In the picture..
We also shrunk the skirt of the 12ga Lyman cast slug and put it
in 12ga SPW wads and total about 550gr. If you have Lyman
12ga mold, can use it as pattern to make a slug to go into a
SPW wad. Leave the top part same as original Lyman and make
bottom so it fits in the SPW with real tight fit.

http://www.gunownerstv.com/lymanspw12.jpg

I like to use P14/M17 Enfields for our testing. Great for my 585HE
case and in picture it shows how we change the sear spring to one
on the back of the sear. So we can open up the bottom to feed
the long cases from singlestack magazine box by removing the
unneeded front of the sear and metal above it in the bottom, giving
room to the back, for cases that are 3.9" plus overall loaded length.

http://www.gunownerstv.com/bspring.jpg

Couple guys who are setting up 585HEs in singleshots are going
to shoot 58cal Minies and other bullets and use black powder
and/or substitutes. So I tested some with Pyrodex pellets,
Used 54cal, 60gr equivalent and they stack in the case ok,
and just beveled corner of bottom one so it set tight to the base.
As the case has good inside radius. Used 3 pellets with 24ga
card over pellets, 3/8" felt wad and another card with 440gr Minie.
There is a certain nostalgia about all that sulfur smell.If you can
stand the cleaning. Slug going 2100.. 4 pellets about 2400.

Here is picture of another long bullet in sabot/wad , in 12ga that
was sent to me. Ajay on Shotgun World put these together.

http://www.gunownerstv.com/vdolong.jpg

Did some testing, 12ga plastic & brass with new super slow RE-33 powder.
It fires off ok in 12ga with 700gr and heavier slugs, with shotgun primers
like RE-17 which is much slower than shotgun powders. .
It is made the same way as RE-17 as far as how the rate of burn
deterrent is put into the powder. Which is why it ignites in large diameter
cases like 12ga and BMG with shotgun primers. Really be great for super
heavy 1100 to 1500 grain slugs to get good speed and keep case damaging
peak pressures down. Example in 3.5" Fiocchi 12ga plastic case, 690gr slug in
BPI Helix Driver Wad with 180 gr RE-33 the basecup only expanded .002".
And they are thinner basecup than some..Ed

[hubel458]

Last picture above shows what can be with sabots. It was thought to
be 20ga size when we got picture, but it is a smaller
45cal caliber sabot with 30cal streamlined bullets in them.
This was set up by the poster 'edge' on Castbullets forum.

More info on the SPW sabots with 520 gr Lyman reworked and locked into
them. With 3.5" brass RMC in the NEF long barrel gun, going about 2500
they smash though 6" timber with Lyman tearing wood up. Also got the same
combo 2200 in 3.5" plastic. Lyman in sabot on the left in picture on
right is factory SPW.

http://www.gunownerstv.com/lymanspw12.jpg

Another setup using the largest diameter 58 Minie I have is this .590" in this
12ga real thick muzzleloading wadcup for steel shot. I chamferred the bottom of
Minie slug and wedged it in the cup. The cup comes real long and we cut it off.
That leaves perfect edge to roll crimp against. Dab of epoxy holds the Minie slug
in, so it works like a non-discarding sabot. This wad has is own seal and fairly
short compared to others, so it leaves room for more of our slower powders.
Shorter slug and wad setups make loading easier.



http://www.gunownerstv.com/58inmzwad.jpg

Here is picture of the Magtech we redid in the 585HE by mono-blocking in 585
barrel. This is second one we've done. Tried out a ladder peep sight on the
back. Makes a neat gun.That underlever is a great touch.Ed


http://www.gunownerstv.com/585mt3.jpg

As part of the 585 test guns have smooth barrels, they are like a hopped up
24ga. We got couple bags of 24ga cards and felt wads. Easy way to use
reduced loads as the wads are perfect in 585 case. For comparison top load
say with RE17 and 650gr bullet is 170gr, but you can put in 100gr and card
and couple wads and have real easy load. And you don't have to worry about
airspace. Great for reduced loads with Minie slugs. In the same vein you
can put in a card over the powder and about 3/4 oz of shot and have a real
speedy 24ga shot load equivalent. Put card over the shot and glue it in.Ed

[hubel458]

First picture is of a nice finished 87 Winchester Will Sanders got set up
and he is using short brass cases.Beautiful scroll work on the stock.

http://www.gunownerstv.com/wills87.jpg

Next is takeoff of a slug idea from Longbow on Cast Boolits, 12ga lead
roundball with section copper tube, wads compressed inside, BPGS seal on
bottom, screwed together. I have many boxes of wads. Now he did his with
screw into ball, put tube on with screw centered inside tube and filled tube
with hot glue. It stays together. Both are nose heavy for smooth bore work.

http://www.gunownerstv.com/tubeslug.jpg

Next is side sectioned view, one of our 585HE cases, showing how 3/4
ounce of shot fits in.. 585 is same bore as 24ga. Cards shown are 24ga.
Just glue top card in. Some of our 585s are smoothbore and the HB Minie
slugs work at short range and the shot will do at short range also going
about 2000 fps. Could use 24ga shotcup.

http://www.gunownerstv.com/585wadshot.jpg

Next, Mossy 390 bolt action, with heavy 585 barrel. Makes a nice big bore gun,
and handles nice with texturized stock finish. About same strength as
the heavy break actions I have 585HE in.Ed

http://www.gunownerstv.com/585mossy.jpg

[hubel458]

Here is picture of the 12ga short brass RMC cases being used in
the 1887 WIN shown above. They are 2 5/8" long cases and we
get 600gr over 1900. He had work done on action to get it to feed
these and 3" roll crimped plastic. Brass loaded about same length
as 3' plastic crimped little long.

http://www.gunownerstv.com/12shortbrass.jpg

Next pic are Lyman slugs cast for thin 12ga wad, used in thickwall
10ga VP100 wads. These Lymans I got are on large size and fit
VP100 fairly well. Makes easy, lighter, superfast load in 10ga.

http://www.gunownerstv.com/10lyman.jpg

Next; further idea with Longbow's tube/roundball slug shown above.
Use tube hot glued to ball with screw in the back and use it in
a 10ga VP100 wadcup. These type slugs little more accurate used
in wads as opposed to fullbore.

http://www.gunownerstv.com/10gatube.jpg

Next shows picture of a long 585 bullets, about 1600gr in our 585HE
cases. Got the idea from Bret In Minn that could setup 585HE
guns with super long throat and load down to subsonic speeds to
make the 585HE Whisper.....And regular bullet loads would still fire
in the same guns......And at subsonic 1050fps it would have about
4000 ft lbs, about twice what the peashooter whisper cases have.
And my case could get a 2400 gr long bullet to same subsonic speed
for 6000 ft lbs. And one that long would have proportions like the
newer tank cannon, smooth barrel saboted darts, that it could be
possibly be done, using long 2400gr in smooth barrel.
Neat ideas from guys interested in whisper type loads.

http://www.gunownerstv.com/585whisper.jpg

Last is picture of FBW in our 585HE with handgrip stock and light
barrel for lightweight carrying. Grip is weighted, gun is 6lbs.
Barrel is 28". I'm not a fan of light barrels. 650gr at 2500 is max of
what I can hold onto shooting from the hip Moderate load
.Little info about my 585 loads, like in the break actions and the
Mossy in post above. I load about 85% max velocities, but to get
85% we only need 2/3 the peak pressure, like 40,000 psi
instead of 65,000...Ed

http://www.gunownerstv.com/585tact.jpg

[hubel458]

We have a winner it seems. The 12ga sabots using 58cal slugs.

http://www.gunownerstv.com/sabotpile.jpg

The sample 12ga sabots got here earlier this week. And we got a bunch
of testing already for opening and sealing, and some accuracy testing .440gr
Minie bullet, measuring .575"; with OD of sabot with slug in it of .737" It is
perfect. Going moderate 1800. Petals opened perfect and evenly and they all
stayed on perfect. No petals twisted or torn. Tested in 3" case with slower
powder loads. 80gr of 4759 and 50gr Alliant Steel. Fiocchi case.
Savage 210 rifled barrel, 1 to 35 twist. Cases with slower powders expanded
only a little, and those cases are soft ones.
We have big bunch of the sabots here now.


http://www.gunownerstv.com/opensabots.jpg

All petals were opened at about 30 deg to the base when picked up.
With ither powder the bases have no damage, or burn throughs or melting.
Took rifling perfect, so skidding on the rifling. Most of the rifling grip is on the
bottom half of sabot, which is why these and Accutips are best as the bottom
is full size instead of dropping back in size, compared to the top, like many
other sabots. Rifling in the barrel still clean..

http://www.gunownerstv.com/sabotrif.jpg

The Minies are hollow based and the slug edges did not cut into the inside of the
sabot bases,just a slight impression. We have got good base thickness.
Good Accuracy - In the cold and very windy day, hit milk jugs at 30 yds.
Here is picture inside sabot showing just a slight indent. No need of cards under
slugs, and if you did, the the slugs would set up in sabot and not have the
curve of the slug behind the inside circular rib for best fit...

You got to use right powders. With right slower powders( not fast shotgun),
that start easier and used in larger amounts, you won't tear up the sabots.
It is false economy to use all fast shotgun powders,trying to get twice as many
shots per pound... and tear up sabots, expand cases too much, get poor groups,
miss that deer or whatever. For most of you in 3" cases Alliant Steel is best.

Interested in sabots -- gunowner at journey.com Ph- 1-989-644-5228
THE undersize blue ones sold elsewhere for 34 bucks a hundred plus postage.
Ours are 33 bucks per 100 postage included, or $20 for 50 postage included,
with a bonus WE WILL send along 10 slugs with 100 order, 5 with 50 order.
to show you what to get and to test with. Slugs can be 440gr or 500gr..Ed

http://www.gunownerstv.com/sabotdent.jpg

[hubel458]

Here is picture of a bunch of the sabots with different slugs and bullets.
Back Row- Two roundball load, balls 285gr each-- pointed long 700 gr -- a blunt
solid 700gr-- tungsten slug 1000gr --- jacketed bullet -- 600gr.
2nd row-611 Lyman 530gr Minie- 500gr flat base- Lee 500gr hard--Lee 500gr soft
1st Row- Lyman 440gr old style minie-- Lyman 510 gr new style-- 440gr from Dixie
Gunworks-- 400gr Lee target style. I like 440gr old style and 440 gr Dixie. For sale
on Gunbroker is all sizes and weights.. Or cast your own. Lots of moulds around.
Lee moulds only 20 bucks. Best diameters to use are .574 " to .577" Minies.
If you have ones bigger and they are not hardened you can roll them betweem two
hard surfaces and they will get little smaller. I have some that are .585" 440gr
and work in my 585HE and they can be rolled smaller.

http://www.gunownerstv.com/topsabot.jpg

Here are sabots with variety of seals/wads, and the shortest one in picture with
white felt wad just fits in 3" case with 80gr 4759, and still leaves room to roll crimp.
I compress it in hard. Now only faster powder than 4759 I'd use is Alliant Steel in
smaller amounts, 50gr Steel, in 3", and thicker wads and cushions like shown.
To roll crimp over the top edge of sabot we had .220" of case before crimping.
You only have to crimp top edge of sabot real good.


http://www.gunownerstv.com/sealsabot.jpg

After crimping the slugs are tight and don't move around. The circular rib inside the
sabot holds slugs tight back into the base. Speeds over 2000 fps
will be gotten using 3.5" plastic cases, with our slower powder loads. .
More testing for accuracy yesterday, a warmer, calmer day, with steel sights.
Hit. paper plate at 50 yds.

As said above, best to use right powders. Right slower powders( not fast shotgun),
that get to peak pressure slower, thus can use larger amounts, can get to higher
velocities, and you won't tear up the sabots and won't expand cases as much.

For most of you in 2.75" and 3" cases Alliant Steel is best.
FOR 440GR SLUGS IN SABOT---For 2.75" start at 40gr and go up to about 50.
For 3" start at 45gr go up to about 55. I like 3.5" best as you can load much easier
for speed, still have more cushion wads. Start with 50gr Steel, go up to about 62.
Case brands act different, but using the slower powders minimizes the differences
and keeps us away from surprizing pressure problems.

In 3" plastic,most 4759 I can get in and still have 1/4"cushion is 80gr.... In the 3.5"
I can get in 105 gr with this sabot and get over 2000 fps, In these loads if using
480-500gr cut back 3 gr. These 58cal slugs can be cast or they are at Dixie Gunworks
and 4 guys on Gunbroker got them. Get ones .574" to .577"


Interested in sabots--- gunowner at journey.com Ph- 1-989-644-5228
THE undersize blue ones sold elsewhere for 34 bucks a hundred plus postage.
Ours are 33 bucks per 100 postage included.
Or $20 for 50 postage included..
.Or 150 for $45 postage included----- ALL with a bonus
WE WILL send along 10 slugs with 100 order, 5 with 50 order. 15 with 150 order.
to show you what to get and to test with. Slugs can be 440gr or 500gr......Ed

[hubel458]

Here is picture of 45-50yd target, used a scoped NEF Ultra, the sabot load of a 440gr
58cal slug in it at 1800... Measures 2.5" on outside for 3 shots.

http://www.gunownerstv.com/sabottarget.jpg

Here is pic of almost 2100 of them. More coming. Time to
get them and get loads working.

http://www.gunownerstv.com/sabtable.jpg

A little levity in this process.Ed

http://www.gunownerstv.com/bearpic.jpg

[hubel458]

Some more info about our sabots and various slug weights......
First and most important is our sabots fitting real tight like the Accutip
Sabots, they will not get the same speed at the same pressures as
the undersize grey and blue ones, But they do leave the barrel
headed straighter and without damage, even with hollowbase 58cal
slugs in them as the pics above show. No cards under slugs in sabots.,
But with good powder seals, using Alliant Steel, and good 1/4" minimum
cushion wads.

The 440gr Minie slug of .575" in the 3" cases is the one I used as a
base loading, to work each way by weight to find what loads of
Alliant Steel work and extract in my NEF. Using 3" soft base cases.
Here is pic of before/after of Fiocchi cases, on right unfired and left
fired, 55gr Steel with 440 gr slug.

http://www.gunownerstv.com/expansion.jpg

For 440gr max of 55gr Steel
For 400gr max of 57gr Steel
For 360gr max of 59gr Steel

For 490gr max of 52gr Steel.
For 510gr max of 49gr Steel
For 540gr max of 47gr Steel.

I tested all these weights for extraction. It is real nice to reach into a
bucket, grap a sabot that fits right, and go to loading and shooting.
Many of you need to get in on the fun.
Here is picture of Fiocchi with sabot, roll crimped. The top of sabot is
perfect for roll crimping...It is setting under crimp tool in drill press.

http://www.gunownerstv.com/sabloadcrimp.jpg

Earler I showed the 585HE Falling block with pistol grip and the light
barrel. Here it is with Knoxx Compstock buttstock. We added 2 extra
springs inside for relatively hard recoiling gun, as stock originally made
for a REM 870 Pump. Works great and looks nice; will putting one on
the Magtech 585HE singleshot break action and got one in rifle stock
for Ruger 77 in 585HE.

http://www.gunownerstv.com/fbwknoxx.jpg

And many guys want wildcats with shoulders, with big neck down, so
in developing the ultimate 700 blaster, here is the 700HSM. Shown next
to Gibbs 650gr ball powder..1000gr at 3800...How about that.
Will be one of only 2 guns I plan on being over 30 lbs, other is 2bore..
Whoppee.....Ed

http://www.gunownerstv.com/700hsm2.jpg

[hubel458]

The sabots aren't moving and I got to get funds out of
them asap, emergency bill coming... And seeing as how
we're low on slugs to send with the sabots, in big numbers,
and no one has yet to buy out our stash of sabots and
set up so they can be selling the sabots, we will try selling
them fast in next few weeks . So to get these moving
out fast and getting tested, and we pay our bills,we will
be having sale on just the sabots, in larger amounts only.
We will send one each of 440gr and 500gr slug so
the guys can see what we have found that works.

Because of the shipping costs and boxes that 2, 3, or 4 bags
of sabots fit in, that has an affordable postage cost to pay,
we have to sell these in 200, 300, and 400 size orders..
So, 200 sabots $47 Shipping included,
300 sabots $65 Shipping included...400 for $83 shipping incl.

Now 200 of the other brand X of undersize ones cost $68
plus shipping. There was dozens of guys the last few
years all over the internet that bought undersize junk,
that wanted good sabots and complained that the ones
they bought elsewhere didn't work...... I haven't heard
from most of them, So guys see if you got time, please
help us out here..MO, Check, Paypal..Ed

[hubel458]

The sabots work in brass cases .First is sabot in a Magtech brass case,
next to 3" plastic.. In shorter brass it would hold about as much powder
as in longer plastic if loaded like in the picture..
Sabots are about .734-735" with slugs in them, and
the Magtech brass with its thin sides still is slightly small OD at the
top compared to plastic, with sabot wedged in.

http://www.gunownerstv.com/sabmagtech.jpg

Next is sabot in RMC case, and sides are full thickness like plastic cases
at the mouth, so don't expand case to hold sabot. We have RMC make case
mouth ID to fit sabot. Sabot being little over fits barrels tight and rifling
impresses into plastic well and gets best spin, and being tight it leaves barrel
straight, with petals opening evenly. Brass case mouths are tight enough that
we push sabot in with a press.Saves trying to crimp heavy RMC case.

http://www.gunownerstv.com/sabotrmc.jpg

Here is picture of a barrel and barrel on a gun from 20 gauge singlshots that
will have the heavy 20ga rifled barrel in picture, mono-blocked into them.

http://www.gunownerstv.com/aaron20.jpg

[hubel458]

What causes sabot problems/inaccuracy. Some pictures will help.
First 2 shows a skinny post that pushes on a cushion or sabot
bottom and it can bend or deflect which if that way when exiting
barrel can start sabot or slug crooked.

http://www.gunownerstv.com/28badwad.jpg

http://www.gunownerstv.com/16badwad.jpg

And more important item that can cause lack of accuracy is if
base of discarding sabot tapers or steps down so that it isn't real
tight as it leaves bore, which can allow it to be cocked.
On the left is our sabot which has base right and other brand
which tapers a bit. Easy to see.

http://www.gunownerstv.com/badtaper.jpg

Next is a ball and slug load in 2 of our sabots. A 285gr .575" ball
flattened, put in the bottom and 400gr Minie above, two different
styles of Minies.

http://www.gunownerstv.com/ballslugsab.jpg

Here is couple 16ga discarding sabots I made from the undersize
12ga grey ones. Didn't have to take off much. Much better use
for them. I made them, after Paul in Alaska asked about
where to find 16ga ones, to see what they looked like.
They still use 50cal slug.. Ed

http://www.gunownerstv.com/16gasabots.jpg

[hubel458]

Here is 16ga discarding sabots made from grey ones with other 16ga slugs..
20 ga factory sabot on left for comparison.

http://www.gunownerstv.com/16sabotother.jpg

Here is picture of 12ga wads showing good and bad support.

http://www.gunownerstv.com/12goodbad.jpg

Here are 2 sabots on the right with super heavy tungsten slug. It is 1100gr,
but tungsten costs ten times what lead costs.

http://www.gunownerstv.com/sabextreme.jpg

Here is a sabot home defense or close range defense load setup using our
sabot. It has five flattened 45cal balls in it. Flattened into a fat disc weighing
145gr each. You'd star crimp it or use card over them and roll crimp. Like
having a bunch of supersize flat buckshot, only super big.

http://www.gunownerstv.com/sabdefense.jpg

Here is comparison picture of the 58cal slugs used in our 12ga sabots, with the
puny slugs used in many other sabots. And we've moved 5500 of the sabots.
Deer season is coming fast. Maybe time to get loads tested/sighted in is now.

http://www.gunownerstv.com/puny.jpg

Some more figures. The 24hr Campfire forums is first one, with our 12ga FH thread,
to get over half million thread views.The HighRoad second.
TheFiringLine third. AR fourth...Ed

[hubel458]

We have moved few thousand sabots.More here.
Here is picture of an 8ga wad with tube slug in it, we made.

http://www.gunownerstv.com/8gatube.jpg

A pallet load of our 585HE cases has arrived in the US
and will be here in little while. And should be another pallet
of them this fall. Here is picture of our 585
with the solid turned CEB bullets in them.

http://www.gunownerstv.com/585ceb.jpg

Here is some helpful, simple math to help figure out the kinetic energy
of your loads, just by having bullet weight and speed.
Just put these multipliers which are used for each speed, on a list
and multiply by the bullet weight in grains. Fast and easy.Ed

Speed..Multiplier
1500------5
1600------5.7
1700------6.42
1800------7.2
1900------8
2000------9
2100------9.8
2200------10.75
2300------11.75
2400------12.8
2500------13.9
2600------15
2700------16.2
2800------17.4
2900------18.7
3000------20

[hubel458]

Here is picture of current 58cal slug options that
you can get molds for from Lyman,
Just make sure they are .574" to .577" diameter.

http://www.gunownerstv.com/lyman58.jpg


A barrel of 585HE cases..Ed

http://www.gunownerstv.com/585delivery.jpg

Made by Bertram and I tested them to max loads and cases hardly expanded,
650gr over 3000 fps. The same draws used by him to make high pressure
Cheytac cases, and to finish mine just uses belted header and cases left
straight and trimmed longer.He makes tens of thousands Cheytac steady all
the time now and can make ours steady also when needed.....Ed

[hubel458]

One of our sabot testers with tight barrel, Abolt, with wide lands in
the barrel, who couldn't do any good at all with our sabot and Alliant Steel
and one type of slug, had to go to IMR 4759.
It would twist up the sabot petals. Terrible accuracy.

My guns have NEF/Sav size barrels and worked fine with Steel as well as 4759.
Petals open perfect. The Abolt barrel is about .005" smaller than NEF/Sav and
the lands over twice as wide as the NEF. And has real narrow grooves.
Guys with Nefs say sabots open fine like ours here.

He went to different Minie slug and our slow powder loads using
IMR 4759 powder up to 78-79 gr and finally got down to 2.5" group, I told him
go to max which is about 80-82 in 3" case.That barrel is like a lot of
EU made barrels and many are replacement or add on barrels in many slug guns,
and that is reason why it is so hard to get accuracy across the board in
sabot shooting in all guns--Takes a lot of work.. Another tester with NEF 12ga using
Alliant Steel with sabots got good groups like we did here. I tell guys if
problems occur go to 4759.

What was happening to sabot petals in the barrel, with the extra tight fit and
wide lands were petals twisting.. The wide lands were not cutting into the base of
sabot like in NEF/Sav210 barrels. The twist effect of rifling was on the surface
of petals, twisting them. It was not getting good hold on the sabot body. The
4759 starting slower allowed the sabot to get its spin started up to speed
with the wide land rifling and narrow grooves..It is just the opposite of
way NEF/Sav 12ga barrels are done. with narrow lands which impress into
the sabot base the way it is supposed to work..I showed pics above of the
good rifling marks impressed into our sabots.

I think after this experimenting run I feel that a lot of accuracy problems
across the spectrum of barrels are due to barrel differences, and not just
the differences in factory slugs and/or reloading components.

Here is pic of bag of our 585 cases with plain head if some need them for
wildcatting.We have quite a few. Fifteen have 585HE cases now. 585 gun
building is accelerating. We can get folks going with 100 cases, dies, and soon
a barrel; and shipping, for 750...Ed

http://www.gunownerstv.com/585plain.jpg

[hubel458]

Here is picture of our 12ga sabots with the marks that the barrel lands made, marked with
black marker. The one with narrow mark is Savage barrel and one with wide mark is
an Abolt barrel. And the ones fired in Savage and NEFs with the narrow lands the marks
impressed into the plastic getting good bite and not twisting the petals. The one from abolt
he used slower powder for easier start and it open petals ok, without twisting petals like
the faster powder did for him.

http://www.gunownerstv.com/landmarks.jpg
..
Next is picture showing top edge of sabots. Our sabot on left you roll crimp down over
the inside of it a little . We have lots of them yet.
The other factory sabot they crimp real short and sharp
180 degree crimp down on top of it.

http://www.gunownerstv.com/topedge.jpg

We see a use for modified 585 application in Indiana deer hunting. Mainly shotgun only, but
they also allow rifles with over 35cal pistol calibers; and any over 35cal rifle with a case
1.8" or shorter, usually short wildcats. So we have the the 585 HI... The I is for Indiana.
Here is picture of it next to the kinda little 500 S&W. 585 HI holds over 80 gr powder.

Next picture is a Magtech chambered for it. Gets 440gr Minie over 2,100 fps.
The .585"- .587" Minies of 440gr, 540gr, etc work in it, and they're good deer slugs
We got other guns with it going into; bolt guns, like in the last picture,
single shots and checking couple lever actions.
Might work great in MNs many guys like....Ed

http://www.gunownerstv.com/585hi.jpg

http://www.gunownerstv.com/mt585hi.jpg

http://www.gunownerstv.com/g585hi.jpg

[hubel458]

In above post we compare the top thickness of sabots
.Here is comparison of the thickness of the sides of two types of
brass 12ga cases, the RMC turned case and the thinner
Magtech drawn case. Easy to see you can't size with same dies
and sometimes you have to use different wads..

http://www.gunownerstv.com/comparemrmc.jpg

In posts earler in the thread you saw variety of wad columns with
12ga sabots and here is picture of my favorite wads to go between
seal and sabot. The white felt ones from BPI. They compress down
evenly on firing, easy to load, decent price,

http://www.gunownerstv.com/whitefelt.jpg

You've seen the work on our 585HE posted. Folks ask what case
I made first ones from and how. Here is a sketch showing the steps
I used to make the first 585HE from long basic straight Nyati brass.
The start of the belt step I put on the case where it is thick I do it
in my case spinner lathe I made. Then case is lubed and run into
couple swaging/sizing dies and comes out formed into our belted,
straight sided, 585HE case...... It is really faster getting a big
run of cases made in a factory.


http://www.gunownerstv.com/belting.jpg

Shot a 12ga sabot load w/440 gr Minie bullet in smoothbore Rossi
in 3" case, Going about 1700... .. 4" group 3 shots at 30 yds.
Gun works fine, shoots nice. Got extra weight in the butt.
The Minie I used is a semi-round nose. If I had the ones of same length
with blunt nose, slightly heavier the group size would be smaller as
they'd be more nose heavy, be like Foster slugs..Ed

[hubel458]

Here is picture of the group improvement a guy had shooting our
sabots in a real tight barrel. Actually an undersize barrel compared
to Savage and Nef barrels. Had a wide open group with shotgun
powder but made it much smaller using much more
of the slower 4759.

http://www.gunownerstv.com/sabimp.jpg

There is a guy now in Canada with our sabots for guys there and
other countries, and as well, he can ship back to here. He plans
on supplying the .58cal slugs also for the sabots if guys can't get
them or don't cast their own.......
Contact is- jeff.a.white at gmail.com
If things work out for him he plans on getting a bunch
our 585 cases imported for sales there

I got some factory 8ga kiln loads, 3 oz lead at 1800 in the long
barrel falling block. Got box of 25 to see how they compared to
the loads we set up.Our favorite is 900gr at 2300. in plastic case.

http://www.gunownerstv.com/8gafactory.jpg

Here is picture of section 585HE case showing 4 pyrodex 54cal,
60gr equivalent pellets, with a 440 gr Minie bullet.
Actual powder wt is about 185gr....Goes about 2600.
Nice cloud of smoke and really bellers out of the slow twist barrel
barrel we set up for minies.....Top pellet tapered a little and fit
inside thr hollwbase of the bullet....Ed

http://www.gunownerstv.com/585black.jpg

[silentkilla]

really neat info and pics

[ltorlo64]

really neat info and pics

I think two thoughts when I read this thread. 1. Those are very big rounds. 2. I would not be able to use my arm for a week if I shot one!

[hubel458]

Here is picture of 24ga FH in the Mossberg bolt gun. On a
Mossy 390 frame, .585" heavy barrel, same as 24ga size.
Chamber is set up 3" with shotgun style forcing cone,
so it can use 2.5" plastic cases and 2.5" Magtech brass
cases with slugs or shot and for 3" cases we use 577NE thin rim
3" brass. Really makes a hairy 24ga using the 440gr to
540 gr Minie bullets at 21-2400. If you take 540 Minie bullet
mould and leave out base pin you'd have a 650gr that
would do. All these bullets and slugs as well as jacketed and
turned 577/585 bullets work in 24ga as well as my 585HE.
And the smaller Minies work in our 12ga sabots. I keep
saying 58cal is where it is at, and there are more bullet and
slug choices in the .585 size, easy to find, than any other
caliber over 458. And Minies are like 40 cents each and
cheaper if you cast your own.

http://www.gunownerstv.com/mossy24.jpg


Here is picture .585" 1st batch of barrels from McGowen, with other barrels.
Most of the McGowens profiled and some straight blanks.
Others we have are the slow twist and smooth blanks...
In back some of the cases and die sets.

http://www.gunownerstv.com/allhebbl.jpg

Here is picture of 585s, in Enfield and a BBK in Hogue recoil
reducing stocks. These stocks are the rubber coated ones with
the easy to grip surface, nice pistol grip.Has McGowen 26 inch barrels,
1 to 20 twist, barrels are heavy profile and taper
to .980 inch at the muzzle. Guys are doing more Enfields
and other actions through the winter. Ed

http://www.gunownerstv.com/enhobbk.jpg

[hubel458]

Some guys in 12ga like to use the Magtech brass cases
but the cases being brass the sides are thinner than
plastic, and that makes loose fit in 12ga chambers.
And case expand a lot and are harder to resize,
But I found that .750 hollowbase 10ga slug fits
those cases and still chambers ok. Not a sloppy fit.

So If you have a 12ga smooth barrel with full length
backbore job, of .850" bore or bigger you could use
the Magtech brass and ,850" size 10ga hollowbase slugs.
Now these .850" slugs won't go in a 12ga plastic case
and chamber in regular 12ga chamber.

Brett in MN used the a BPI AQ slugs in his full length
backbored 12ga and got fair accuracy as he said the wads
under slugs expanded a lot for a decent fit.
The 10ga slug shown in the 2.5 inch Magtech is 800 gr,
and .850" diameter. These cases will take magnum
pressure so you can get good speed, for what this short
case can hold.

It is too bad they don't make 3" and 3.5" versions.
These 2.5" cases are easier to find and much less than
others, so if needing brass ones you can rig up guns
to work with them. To build a new barreled gun in actual
12ga size, IE .729" bore, you'd make chamber to
minimum specs so cases don't over expand.
In the picture are 2 10ga slugs on right, like in the case,
and 2 12ga jacketed slugs and one 12ga lead slug left.ED


http://www.gunownerstv.com/backbore.jpg



Here is the ytube URL again for our guy
shooting 585HE in his NEF----By mid summer we plan on a
pickup truck load of more 585HE cases coming in.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HypaUdwQGAc

[hubel458]

Here is good simple system with big hollowbase slugs to stop
the skirts from deforming, or wads getting pushed into
the hollow base. I found that dense dow foam works
good, I was using glue gun, but the dense foam is easier, cut
plugs out of foam sheet and force into the base. Make it a
tight fit, use spot of glue inside, glue that is for foam....
Trim off the foam flush..In picture is 10 ga 900gr slug
with foam pressed into the base..

http://www.gunownerstv.com/10foam.jpg

How we get good 24ga plastic seals with protusion on
top that fits up inside 58cal Minie base, same bore as 24ga
and our 585HE. I get the 24ga seal by cutting apart the BPI
24ga Brush wad, getting two seals out of each.Works great
in plastic case giving a shorter column than other seals and
wads, so we can get in enough of our 4759 for good speed.
The 24ga idea is getting nicer all the time with
the variety of cheap 58cal slugs, and good 3" brass cases,
drawn cases, we didn't have to wait to get made.
And all kind of guns we can use, bolt 395 Mossbergs, single
shots of all kinds, Autos,, pumps. bolt action Savage,
even 1887 Win and Greener MKIII, bolt action JC Higgins. .

http://www.gunownerstv.com/24gaseal.jpg

Here is picture Khan auto we setting up 24ga FH, it is 3.5"
model, has a 12ga barrel to change with. Being 3.5" it
feeds/ejects through lengthened port 3" brass 24ga cases we
made from 577NE brass. We rework back of the bolt for
slightly longer stroke.Ed

http://www.gunownerstv.com/khan24ga.jpg

[hubel458]

Here is picture of 24ga cases, loads; and some slugs and seals.
Brass cases are 3", plastic cases are 2.5". Brass 3" can be loaded
to match 577NE power.

http://www.gunownerstv.com/24galoads.jpg

Here is of 24ga in an 87 Win, just test gun of mine. Uses same barrels
as our 585HE, This one has slow twist for Minie bullets.Our guys
have got supply of regular and slow twist barrels.

http://www.gunownerstv.com/87-24ga.jpg

Here is picture of the first 585HE done and shooting in Australia.
It is owned by the poster, 'tankhunter' on the AR forums.
Built by his smith who has a reamer.
Guys there can get cases from Bertram, and there will soon be three
reamers there. There is a company there now making 585 barrels,
Allan and Grant Swan. in Redbank, Queensland.....Ed

http://www.gunownerstv.com/tankhunter.jpg

[hubel458]

Finally got back to forums.Been busy with 24ga FH and 585HE
and getting 585 cases made, as many as possible...

We are now working a bit with 24ga FH and here is picture
of it with our 585HE case. Both use same bullets/slugs, same
bore barrels. Main use difference, 24ga FH easy setup in break
actions and 585HE in bolt actions and falling blocks.

http://www.gunownerstv.com/585-24.jpg

Picture of non-discarding 585/24ga sabot cup I found that holds
458 bullets and slugs tight. It had hammerhead type slug in it that
was pulled out and they wouldn't stay in tight. Sabot was a loose fit
in 20ga, made for 20ga, but small, so I shrunk the bottom rib,
fits perfect, super tight, in 24ga and 585HE. Fits real tight to give
good resistance for good ignition.

http://www.gunownerstv.com/458sabot24.jpg

Here is another 24ga/585 sabot that holds .452" 45cal pistol
bullets. Made by Hornady for 58cal ML. With 250 gr bullet in 585
will go about mach 4.

http://www.gunownerstv.com/452sabot24.jpg

Here is easy way to weight plastic stocks with hollow butts, use rubber
coated computer mouse balls, weight comes out perfect without being
too heavy if using that much lead.And coating keeps them quiet, and
we hold them in with piece dense foam under butt pad....Ed

http://www.gunownerstv.com/mouse.jpg

[ready]

That looks like a hell of a cartridge. Can I get one in a revolver with a shoulder stock? :wow:

[hubel458]

Be a interesting pistol case. You'd have to build it.

First AUS buffalo killed by 585HE. By Tankunter with his Ruger #1.

If you use closeup on picture, you see loaded round on the buffs hide

next to the 585HE Ruger #1.... A nice heavy barreled gun..Ed

http://www.gunownerstv.com/tankbuff.jpg


I put the 585 in a Savage 112, lots of room lengthwise, figuring out an
extractor is a problem, but then got a look at the savage 212, the 12 ga
one with big diameter bolt and locking lugs. Its locking lugs are bigger
than the lugs in a big PH bolt action. So one day will do one
on a Savage 212, and adjusting extractor to fit no problem...Ed

http://www.gunownerstv.com/ph212lugs.jpg

[hubel458]

Here is picture of 100 cases loaded with CEB solid nose bullets
and hollowpoints. This bullet is a turned solid with wide meplat
or wide hollowpoint. .

http://www.gunownerstv.com/100ceb.jpg

Here is picture of triball loads that fellows like for deer and hogs,
and just general tear em up fun, with using BPGS seal to improve
sealing under what are heavier loads. The balls are .600" and
315gr. each. The wadcup is a TUPRW123 that Precision sells.

http://www.gunownerstv.com/triball.jpg

I need a bunch of empty 3.5" 20ga plastic cases.


Our 585 caliber is modern bolt action continuance of the 577 Nitro
Express rimmed case, that many big game hunters like, usually
set up in double rifles. It has an interesting history, from the old 24ga
size to 577NE, to 585 Nyati with G&A picture of Ross Seyfreid
shooting one in a Ruger #1 under recoil knocking his shooting glasses
off, to the Trex of internet fame knocking guys over with recoil,
to our 585HE the strongest yet.

The 577NE is an offshoot of 24 gauge caliber paper cases, only they went
eventially to brass cases. Back in the 1860-70s, starting first with short
cases and black powder, cases built like shotgun cases, called the
577 Snider, then going to coiled brass cases, still with black powder,
then on to drawn brass cases, called 577 BP Express. then to 3"
and other longer cases with smokeless. The Snider started out with a bullet
of .570" diameter and through the progression to the 577NE bullet
diameter ended up at .585". This general bore diameter of cartridge guns
and muzzle loaders, it is really interesting on how they developed
and were used by military and then hunters over the years. The Snider
was necked down to make the 577-450 , a military round used all
over the British Empire, by the tens of millions.

Bases of both 24ga and 577NE are about the same. Now we have made a
24ga FH, a slight regression to earlier times, by taking 577NE brass, and
reducing rim diameter to 24ga specs. Two minute job. And
stamp the caseheads 24 ga.

For shotgun upgrading in power and range, It is all about increasing
the power in easy to find brass cases, stronger actions, and finding
reasonable price rifled barrels. Same barrels we found for 585, work for 24ga.
The 577NE brass we make 24ga drawn cases from, for example are
about a third the cost of 600NE brass, or getting turned 24ga cases made.
We could use 24ga thin cases but they are a pain, expand way too much,
with slug loads which makes resizing without crumpling cases a problem.

Info about the power in types of guns normally set up with 24ga FH,
break actions, bolt shotguns,etc. In thin brass 24ga case, 440gr slug
goes 1500, with about 2000 ft lbs, that's in a 2.5" Magtech brass case.
Now using the better, heavier 3" brass we got, we can increase speed
to 1750 fps increasing energy 50%, going to 2000 fps about doubles
energy. And going to 2300 which good brass holds ok, in heavy barrel
gun, gets us near 2 1/2 times the energy. About 37-40,000 psi which the
actions hold in this smaller diameter case, compared to 12 gauge size.
So makes relatively smaller bore shotgun, 24ga, with 458WIN power.
.Perfect with Minie bullets. Perfect for deer and hogs, bear, etc.

Great for slug hunting in shotgun only areas. We mark barrels 24ga
and cases 24. A decent case that is complimentary to our 585HE....Ed

[hubel458]

Guys asking about using 585 CEB bullet in our 12ga super
sabot. Here is picture, We just took off the bottom band and couple
middle bands on the CEB and it fit perfect in our 12ga sabot,
which uses .575" slugs. Hollowpoint one pictured 700gr in the
sabot loaded in brass case. Can be used in plastic case with a
special made hollowed out long roll crimper.

http://www.gunownerstv.com/cebsabot.jpg

Getting some more interest in our 585HE.
An application for our 585 HE is for guys with old military 14.5mm
PTRDs, to use our case with chamber insert. In many places 14.5
cases are scarce, real expensive, as well as most 14.5mm cases
being steel are not the easiest to resize/reload. Our case sizes
like regular cases and can be easily reloaded many times.

And a PTRD with almost a 5 foot long barrel could get 650gr
spitzer bullet to about same speed the 14.5mm gets a 900 gr using
3 times as much powder. About 3300 fps. Or get a 900gr at 2800.
Great possibilities for fun shooting. For tactical use in a place
where it would be useful to reload in the operations field, where
steel cases are scarce. 100 of our cases do over 2000 reloads.

http://www.gunownerstv.com/585-14,5mm.jpg

I like Enfields to put our 585HEs in, for reasonable cost guns, the
actions once sporterized are one of the longest for long cases. .
Here is inexpensive way to fancy up the Enfield Bolt handle by
cutting the dogleg part of the old handle off and welding on
inexpensive contoured handles I found, one of which is like
Ruger 77 handle, the one on the right . Something even a novice
like me can do.....

http://www.gunownerstv.com/enhandle.jpg

A lot of guys are crazy about CEB bullets. Here are light 450gr
ones in our 24ga FH. That hollowpoint can range in weight 450gr
to 700gr depending on how much we cut off the back..
The 24ga FH brass case is nice complement to our 585HE,
for shotgun only deer hunters that want a .585" caliber,
and easy to find big bore bullets.... Ed

http://www.gunownerstv.com/24liteceb.jpg

[alismith]

If you don't mind my asking, where did you get the dies for the .600 round ball (or did you order them already made, if so, where did you get them)?

[hubel458]

A guy give me some to check on.. But Lee makes the molds I understand.

For those kinda loads balls have to be hard alloy. Ed

[alismith]

A guy give me some to check on.. But Lee makes the molds I understand.

For those kinda loads balls have to be hard alloy. Ed

Thanks. I'll check into that and see what I can find.

[hubel458]

For lightweight plinking, deer hunting, etc, in 585HE as well as 24ga FH
here is picture of 58cal Hornady sabot that holds .451/.452" light
bullets 225 to 300 gr. A way to shoot targets economically. Low recoil
but a big bang and satisfaction. A 250 gr bullet would go about
mach 4 with a top load..

http://www.gunownerstv.com/58hornadyjkt.jpg

Here is what 585 bull barrel, target blank looks like, 1 5/8" OD and 32" long.
It'll go in heavy action of some kind. 4th one from the left. The one in yellow
sleave on top, is a heavy contoured one with muzzle of .980". we got a
bunch of them and so does McGowen.

http://www.gunownerstv.com/585bull.jpg


Here is picture, nice cast bullet I like for the 585HE and 24ga FH.
It is .585" diameter and 650 gr and these particular ones are a
hard lead alloy, plus they've been heatreated. They are about as
hard as copper jacketed softs pivtured. These in .575'' size would
work in our 12ga sabot..

http://www.gunownerstv.com/585castbul.jpg

But to penetrate good and do great damage to game or target they
can be fairly soft lead and hollowbase like Minie Bullets. Here is picture
of timber drilled through with .585 soft lead Minie from 585HE.
Picture is the back of 6x6 timbers where Minie bullets came out.

http://www.gunownerstv.com/58calpen.jpg

Guys experimenting with multiple ball loads in 12ga wadcups, here is a
way to keep them together group wise.Ed


http://www.gunownerstv.com/screwball.jpg

[ltorlo64]

For lightweight plinking

There is nothing about this gun you have been working on that says to me "lightweight plinking"!

[hubel458]

It is relatively light. Loads still potent for deer and hogs.

Here is picture of our NEF 12ga FH with Hogue Compstock. It has the
recoiling cam and springs in the hollow butt plus some weght,

http://www.gunownerstv.com/compstock12.jpg

Here is a variety of slugs and bullets that fit in the 12ga dangerous
game slug, lock on sabot. BPI sells that DG slug.

.http://www.gunownerstv.com/dgslugs.jpg

There is couple 585 videos on Swann Gunsmithing's Facebook site;
Of our 585HE in first Ruger #1, that was done in Australia.It was set up
for the poster Tankhunter on the AR big bore forums. That gun killed the
first AUS buff, killed by a 585HE, that I posted picture of above. You can
go direct to the page and click on the videos to watch the test firings..

https://www.facebook.com/swanbarrels/videos


Here is picture our 585HE in a Montana PH action in a MPI stock, with the
style of a CZ stock and metal will be finished with a Gun Kote finish.


http://www.gunownerstv.com/ph585jm.jpg


Here is picture of a 585HE we did in a Mauser 98 as a
singleshot test gun. We used a composite stock we
adapted to fit action. Weighted to 12 lbs.
Enfield in back, you can see it is longer.

http://www.gunownerstv.com/mau585he.jpg

And speaking of singleshots a fellow in the Yukon is
just finishing up one in a Ruger #1.And the 24hr Campfire
forum has over a million views of this thread, ..ED

[hubel458]

The 12ga FH isn't the first wildcat case built on BMG brass, it was preceded by
target rounds like the necked down 338 Talbot, the cut off 700 DKT for big game,
necked down to .416 and . 458, and more, but the following one was way
before them, in my favorite rifle caliber, for .585" bullets.

One of first modern era 585 caliber wildcats, since WW2, the 575 Miller-Greiss Magnum,
was first mentioned in the fifties, It was made from BMG brass shortened to 2.70" long
and necked up from 50 cal to .585". But actually if cut off first, it would be annealed, necked
down to hold 585 bullet. Fairly sharp shoulder.

They rebated the rim quite a ways down to .618" to maybe fit 98 Mauser bolt.
Maybe used a special hogged out, reworked action. Listed as
shooting 750gr bullet about 2400 fps. It holds about 150gr of ball powder under
a 750 gr bullet, maybe little less than 3" 50cal spotter case, where our 585HE holds
180gr under a 750gr'.

We made one for experimenting on a full length BMG case.With rim left same as the base
and would need a BMG or PH sized bolt and action. I'm glad to be a big bore wildcatter,
and happy to be in the company of big bore nuts, old and new. Years ago when guys did
big wildcats on BMGs, they took what was available, full length BMGs to rework, and but
maybe back then they could have used the 3" BMG spotter case, by shortening the neck,
if they could have found couple barrels full.

But it takes a lot of work to reform and shorten cases that much like M&G, with the multiple dies,
multiple annealings, and case trimming and extreme reworking of regular rifle actions,
which is why I like our 585 case, simple and straight, any regular, long bolt action, or
falling blocks, break actions, etc, a 585 good for dozen or more heavy loadings,
and moderate loads, last forever..

For our 585HE , made it a size, actually new belted size, to fit regular size, long bolt guns,
(not BMG actions)that didn't have to be used from tripod so to speak, and could be put in a favorite
gun of many, the Ruger #1, other falling blocks, without taking metal out of the feed trough.
To get the same and/or more powder space as a cut back, really shortened, BMG case, like M&G,
wildcatted to 585, or other short cases, we made longer case and worked with guys
with a group buy, to get a factory run made. A miracle. We thank all gun nuts for the help.

Here is picture from the great site, cartridgecollector dot net, of the M&G Mag .Ed

http://www.cartridgecollector.net/sites/default/files/575%20MG%20MAGNUM%20FULL.jpg

[ltorlo64]

I have been thinking it is time for an update from you. Thanks.

[hubel458]

Sorry to be away so long. Health and money problems.

Here are couple 24ga FHs break actions, a CBC with monoblocked
585 barrel in it, and a guys NEF he had a 585 barrel monoblocked in.
The 585 barrels are perfect fit for 24ga, and 585 Minie Bullets
are a perfect for barrel and 24ga case fit.

http://www.gunownerstv.com/24gacbc.jpg

http://www.gunownerstv.com/nef24fh.jpg


Another matter--- I know it seems like I'm begging for help when
I ask guys on the net for help at times. . But I really am in a bind.

That is truth, Our small income disappeared from our farms truck
garden business as my my knees are shot and can't hardly
walk, I can't do field work, etc. And the wife's lung condition
got so bad she can't work.. So we finally had to quit that,
but were and are in debt. We need little extra money to try
to keep our health fixed up and pay bunch of back bills and utilities.
As well as needed for traveling to doctors, treatments,drugs, etc.

Could you all maybe get together with others on these forums
and kinda take up a collection to help get me out of my troubles and
debt. Like 10 or so bucks each put into our paypal account as gifts.
And if you want to mail it, use email below to contact me to get you
my mailing address.

The Paypal email is je@gunownerstv.com

Best Regards- Ed

PS-- I really need help. Not astronomical amounts, but fairly fast.
Just a little from each to help. A quick boost so to speak.
We never made anything on the 12ga FH, etc, work and research.
The little coming from sale of our groups buy of 585 brass, dies,
barrels, etc, goes to pay to the places, where the money
is owed, for getting them made..Ed

[hubel458]

Here is picture of a lightweight Barnes bullet in 24ga FH.
Guys cut the back off of 750gr bullet off to get 500gr weight.

http://www.gunownerstv.com/24litebarnes.jpg

Here is picture 58 cal Minie slug that's little long on the side for our 12ga
sabot, with the front of the slug above the grooves swaged to fit in
sabot. The swaged front third of the slug fits next to the internal ridge in
sabot and the sabot doesn't bulge out.Just run front into a die
and punch it back out.


http://www.gunownerstv.com/slugswage.jpg

And some info about 12ga FH and other hopped up shotgun slug loads,
You know we like to use the rifle, IE slower than shotgun, powders.
We like to use IMR 4759 for some loads and RE17 for others where
we have room for larger charges. Those two powders are ignited ok in large
diameter cases like 12ga, 10ga, 16ga, etc, without needing BMG primers.
But we have always been looking for easy to ignite powders of the RE17
type, when cold, that has a speed between IMR 4759 and the RE17.
RE17 uses different process to put the deterrents in the powder to control
speeds, which allows much easier ignition, compared to big majority of rifle
powders with all the deterrent on the outside.

There are some out there made by Nitrochemie Switzerland, who makes
RE17, RE26, RE33, etc, for Alliant. It's the ' RELOAD SWISS' brand available
for those in UK and Europe, They are called RS 40, about same speed
as RE12, RS 50 & 52, same speed as RE15, RE60 & 62 same as RE17.
Also one ' Vihta Vouri ' powder called TR140 available over there,
that Nitrochemie made..

Many guys can't get IMR 4759 anymore, some can't get RE17.
I'd like to get some of RS 40-50-52 powders or V V TR140
into the states, would really be great help for hairy slug load work.
And guys in UK/EU now can load some real hairy, slow powder, slug loads,
even though not having IMR 4759....Ed

[hubel458]

Here is picture of 375 Warlord next to our 585 case he made it from.
He is going to make couple later necked down to 416, and 458.
There is another guy working on doing one necked down to 357 wildcat.

http://www.gunownerstv.com/375warlord.jpg

Here is a picture of our poster Biebs on AR, 585 HE, in a MPI stock.
He used a big Enfield action, with a fancy jeweled bolt.

http://www.gunownerstv.com/biebs2.jpg

We found couple other big actions for our 585, that can even feed really
long overall length loaded cases, like 4.5" long or more, if you are
using long pointed bullets for real long range target and hunting work.
One is Lawton 8000 Cheytac action, and the other is Stiller Cheytac actions
made similar, just a newer version. Both actions come in 1.45" diameter
and a 1.60" diameter receivers.

And Vestals Gunsmithing in Virginia does great work, decent prices, has
these actions and will build you fancy 585 HEs. .. He has, working with
another guys mag box setup, setup an extra long, good working, single
stack, center feed, magazine..He has one of our 585 HE reamers on hand,
we have barrels, cases, and reloading dies..Ed

http://www.gunownerstv.com/lawton8000.jpg

[hubel458]

Here we kill two birds with one stone so to speak,

Best case sizer is the MEC Collet Super Sizer and it can double
as a case holder when we roll crimp. Much better hold than
the ones made to hold cases for crimping, that cost a lot.
Save cost of a holder, plus have best sizer around

http://www.gunownerstv.com/mecrimp.jpg

Here is couple different setups our guys checking for our 585HE
in a long, Lawton Cheytac action. First laminated thumbhole stock.
Second in a Hogue Compstock. The action can mount a scope rail
like shown on the table in 1st picture or a receiver sight in 2nd picture.
The scope rail is a piccatiny type.

http://www.gunownerstv.com/lawtonthumb.jpg

http://www.gunownerstv.com/lawtonhogue.jpg

The stocks used were wide ones for REM long actions, just add recoil
block ahead of recoil inleting for the longer action, drill new screw hole
Open the stock forward to original bolt hole for longer cases and mag.

About Enfields for our case, one of my favorites, Some don't like the
sporterizing, welding bottom metal straight. Many think straightening
is a huge job needing special jigs. Easier just use one being added on for a jig
with a bolt, to weld on the straight extension, Do top weld, then cut old
extension that is under off with a thin cutting wheel, then weld bottom.
When we bolt the short piece on the one we are straightening, we grind
the short slant off so the added piece lays on there flat.
The one you cut off can be used as the top extension for the next one!!!
Just keep on building...Ed

http://www.gunownerstv.com/guardlen.jpg

[hubel458]

Here is a fancy stocked 24ga FH built on a NEF, built by
a guy in Canada. Its straight back, high comb
stock, handles recoil great.Neat looking work... Ed

http://www.gunownerstv.com/brian24.jpg


About our 2.17" 585 BB case for lever guns, pistols, etc,.
It is made from our 585 case cut back to 2.17" long.
With loaded length of about 2.8" work in lever guns, etc.
Work in 71s, later 1886s, Henry steel frames made for 45-70.
One guy is putting one in single shot action set up with
Contender style pistol grip for testing in long rifle barrel,
to simulate pistol recoil..Be very brisk recoil in a case
that holds 110 gr powder under a light Minie bullet.
Maybe work in a Rossi Judge with heavy barrel.
Or rolling block rifles and pistols...Gonna try one in 1887.
Got first one in one of our guys Greener GP for testing..

In some ways big bore shotguns and rifles are sexy.
By looking at the shape of the fire and smoke cloud....
Thanks for picture, to the great NitroExpress Forums site.


http://www.gunownerstv.com/Mickyboob.jpg

Here is picture of another neat sporterizing deal for Enfields.
On those without rear bridge pocket welded up, we just mill down
and shape it so debth of the pocket matches bottom section of
weaver rail and screw or epoxy it in. Shape to drive in hole tight.
Can use as a rear scope ring mount or mount for peep sight
like a compact UTG sight...Ed

http://www.gunownerstv.com/enfieldsight.jpg

[hubel458]

Here is a picture from the back, of a big Lawton action that
our 585HE fits in nice. Scope rail on there is tapered
for long range shooting.

http://www.gunownerstv.com/lawton35-2.jpg

Here is what our wildcatter buddy is making from our
585HE brass to see how they look and experiment with.
He is getting reamers, dies, and gun setup first for the 375.


http://www.gunownerstv.com/warlord4.jpg

[hubel458]

A poster reading our threads said '' I'm slowly becoming a recoilapheliac''..
That is neat term , and very glad that folks are catching the big bore fever.

Here is a simple, yet neat peep sight we can use on the rear sporterized
bridges of Enfields, works on other rear bridges also.Including shotguns.
I like peep sights the best for most shooting. They also come with flat
bottoms also for bridges and receivers that are flat on top.

http://www.gunownerstv.com/2wgrs.jpg



Here is another pic of our guys 24ga FH in the NEF

http://www.gunownerstv.com/brian24-2.jpg


On straight sided cases like our 585 HE the die set has a mouth expander
die to make it easy to insert bullets. The die flares the mouth, but I always
felt that doing what is really a relative relatively sharp flare, and then the slight
roll crimping the same area of the case into a groove on the
bullet or slug, shortens case life.

So I just use expander plug out of the die, by hand, using just the bottom of
of the expander plug and just push it in a little, wobble it around a small
amount, bullet goes in ok, case mouths last longer, good for dozens of loads,
with moderate hunting and target loads.Only takes a few seconds and less
work that has to be done in the press ... Ed

http://www.gunownerstv.com/mouthex.jpg

[hubel458]

Here is picture of a hard plastic molded shotgun case, holding
a slug, without crimping, a company is experimenting with.
This one with light slug supposed to do over 2000 fps.

http://www.gunownerstv.com/shrifle.jpg


Here is video by Corlanes Sporting, Dawson Creek, BC, CAN.
Known as, Rocky Mtn Rifles, video on Youtube of them testing our
585 HE in a barreled action, they are building for a guy. They are
shooting it into their big bullet trap with test load..

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1vzQjRGfT1A

Allan and Grant Swan in Australia are building 585HE for a guy,
the second they built. First one killed the buff pictured earlier .
AHR and Vestals will make folks here in US a 585 HE.
Here is another view of a Lawton action big enough for 585HE..

http://www.gunownerstv.com/lawton35.jpg


Here is picture of Rossi SS with 585 barrel mono-blocked into it,
chambered for our 585 BB 2.17" case, to do testing in a light rifle
with just pistol grip to simulate the case in pistols. Others going to
put case in leverguns, autoloaders. We got plenty of cases Ed

http://www.gunownerstv.com/rossi585bb.jpg

[hubel458]

Here is picture of a great old time 8bore double.
I like those old outside hammer, big bore guns.

http://www.gunownerstv.com/2-8bore.jpg

The style of most break actions singles aren't the greatest, that we
we used for 12ga FH, 10ga FH, other caliber barrels we mono-blocked
in them like .585" bore for 585HE and 24ga FH.. One that is close
that we have, is the Magtech.

Well the guys have found one that is super strong lockup and looks
real nice. And has the good quality look. It comes 12ga light shot barrel,
soon be monoblocked to rifled 24ga FH, the little brother of the 585HE.

We told company if they did them with NEF style, rifled, heavy slug barrel,
for shotgun caliber only hunters, they couldn't make them fast enough.

http://www.gunownerstv.com/perfect12.jpg


Here is picture of 585HE, In an Enfield that Bret and Darrel in Minn
set up with great camo finish, with nice brake job. It is in a Hogue, recoil
reducing, rubber coated, Compstock.Great job they did.. Ed

http://www.gunownerstv.com/camo-en.jpg

Here is picture from the rear of the Enfield we mounted the short Weaver
rail piece on. It is mounted in the sight pocket that the actions have;
Can hold scope ring or a rear peep sight like UTG makes.. Ed

http://www.gunownerstv.com/enbackwea.jpg

[hubel458]

We will have arrived when we have this big bore in our back yard,
Kind of a neat suppressor,

http://www.gunownerstv.com/bigsuppressor.jpg


Here is folder shotgun guys set up as 24ga FH.

http://www.gunownerstv.com/companion24.jpg


Here is another view of what we feel is a nearly perfect
break action. Guy is making a strong 24ga FH with it.

http://www.gunownerstv.com/perfect12open.jpg


Here is picture of a 585HE MRC PH a guy set up..

http://www.gunownerstv.com/coyote2.jpg


Here is picture of our shorter 585 BB for leverguns, etc,
with a variety of bullets..Ed

http://www.gunownerstv.com/585bbloads.jpg

[Schuetzenman]

You do like the big stuff.

[hubel458]

Here is a Midland break action a guy is doing in 24ga FH.

http://www.gunownerstv.com/midland24.jpg

Here is old catalog picture of different stuff used in old days
for shotgun loads. Some would be hairy in brass cases

http://www.gunownerstv.com/ballshot.jpg

Here is picture of a MN a guy is doing 585HE in..
It is singleshot. Redid bolt handle mounted it on the bolt
further bac, so the port could be lengthened for our long case.
Needs polishing and blueing, scope rail added.

http://www.gunownerstv.com/585mosin.jpg

Here is another picture of the 585HE with great looking stock.
Nice looking wood. Ed

http://www.gunownerstv.com/coyote.jpg

[hubel458]

There are guys on Castboolits forum experimenting with
locking on plastic bases securely on slugs.
Making their own front heavy ones for smoothbores.

Here is picture of our 585BB case next to long 585HE.

http://www.gunownerstv.com/585bb.jpg


Here is another view of the great camo job on the
585HE Enfield, a top view. Ed

http://www.gunownerstv.com/camo-en2.jpg

[ltorlo64]

What is the practical purpose for these conversions or do you all make them just because they are huge? Does any actually use these to hunt and if so, what do they hunt? Do you all get together and have matches to see which build performs better and at what distances?

[JTHunter]

What is the practical purpose for these conversions or do you all make them just because they are huge? Does any actually use these to hunt and if so, what do they hunt? Do you all get together and have matches to see which build performs better and at what distances?

What are the chances that there is some type of body armor out there strong enough to withstand either of these loads?
Do you think these could penetrate a Bradley APC? How about the cowling on a jet engine?
Those are some of the potential uses. :big-gun: :firedevil:

[Schuetzenman]

What are the chances that there is some type of body armor out there strong enough to withstand either of these loads?
Do you think these could penetrate a Bradley APC? How about the cowling on a jet engine?
Those are some of the potential uses. :big-gun: :firedevil:

Nah, they are for Jurassic Park escaped critters. Just the thing for a wayward T-Rex on the loose.

[hubel458]

Here is a helix driver seal we made by cutting base from helix driver

wadcup, good for fullbore roundballs that are too big to go in cup.

Best one to cut off is shortest `12ga one BPI has.


http://www.gunownerstv.com/helixseal.jpg



Here is picture of a 585HE made on a Stiller bolt action for guy in Canada.

It was made for the poster Spooksar on Africa Hunting and Accuratereloading,

by Corlanes/Rocky Mountain rifles, in Dawson Creek BC Canada, with a

Stiller action, Timney trigger. the stock is a blue/grey laminate. He imported

the barrel, cases, dies, etc.. from us, through Prophet River in Lloydminster AB.


http://www.gunownerstv.com/spooksar.jpg



That action similar to Lawton we had and neighbor got, that won the King Of The

2 Mile shoot at Whittington, with the 375 Lethal cartridge the neighbor made,

from our 585 brass. Made it full length case,.. It is big one on the right.

He made an 18 lb gun with McMillan target stock, a huge scope, tripod..

Nice thing is we don't need BMG action.ED


http://www.gunownerstv.com/375lethal.jpg

[hubel458]

Fellow big bore nut, Nathan Vale in AUS, has worked with

Bertram and got the run of full length 12ga From Hell cases done.

Drawn 12ga long cases as strong as BMG brass with unbreakable rims.

Any wanting to get some, contact Bertram at the email -----

b.bertram1@bigpond.com ......





Some more on wildcat 375 Lethal.......

.375 Lethal Precision Arms LLC rifle shooting prototype solid 400gr Berger bullets.

Mitchell built this rifle himself using a McMillan A5 Super Mag stock, Rock Creek barrel,

Nightforce ATACR MOA scope, Phoenix Precision Bipod, and a Lethal Precision Arms

muzzle brake. Lawton Action. Lethal Precision his own gunsmith shop, will make

these target rifles for anyone into target shooting and long range hunting..


Remarkably, Mitchell nailed first- and second- shot hits at the 2477-yard target,

a full 1.4 miles away. It is windy out there, makes shooting hard with a time limit.

The prototype 400 grain Berger Bullets solid performed great, (G7 BC of 0.56 at 3000 fps).



http://www.gunownerstv.com/mitch3.jpg


Here is 585 HE in an Enfield, in a Choate Heavy Varmint Stock. These are super strong.

The butts of these can easily be weighted. Couple guys doing them....... Ed


http://www.gunownerstv.com/enchoate.jpg

[hubel458]

Here is a picture of the 12ga FH brass case that Nathan

Vale had Bertrams make. Next to short plastic case.

http://www.gunownerstv.com/12gavale.jpg


Here is a picture of our 585BB headstamp. Perfect lettering

for our case as it came from production line,.

http://www.gunownerstv.com/585bbstamp.jpg


I like Hogue stocks, but they aren't made for singleshots.

We use singleshots for our 12ga FH and 585HE.

Here is picture of a NEF we set up for 24ga FH and we adapted

a Hogue 1300 Winchester Hogue to it. Looks a lot better, and

handles recoil easier than factory, Butt hollow, easy to add weight,


http://www.gunownerstv.com/buttnef.jpg


Here is picture of 585 case in the Lawton bolt, and the wildcat

375s and others made from our cases, work in bolt also. Ed


http://www.gunownerstv.com/law585bolt.jpg

[hubel458]

Our friend Brian from the far north went to Africa with his 24ga FH he did in
a NEF break action and got 3 nice buffs with it. Good job.


Our 585HE, 700HE and the great 12ga FH are now in the new COTW book
published in Oct, now out for sale,

http://www.gunownerstv.com/cotw585.jpg


We now have our target 375 HE cartridge, made by necking down our 585 HE.
The others couldn't make enough 375s, so we started our own. It has different
shoulder taper, length, neck length, improved over the others...Got a bunch
guys doing it, most into the 2 mile shooting venues, We're making cases,
testing, reamer prints at reamer guys, we are getting guys going. The 2 mile
shoot last year really got the interest booming for 375 necked from our case,

Here's how, size and seat 375 HE, one simple die, a 1" die, no huge dies needed
A die we can make with resize reamer from reamer guy, a regular die body,then
pass on to the next guy, one reamer can make whole bunch of dies for folks.

I do primer work separate, not in the press. SO First with lock ring set, I size cases.

When coming back out of dies with case, we notice the case still well centered,
held straight, when it is down as far as the length of the 375 HE neck... IE
the sides and shoulder corner still supported tight.

So we put washer or another lock ring on, same thickness as neck length,
below original lock ring, screw down tight tight in press,

Dies had a 5/8 x 24 thread in top, had powder fill bushing and other stuff same thread,
reamed out from bottom to set bullet height, with ram, case,and bullet up,

After priming, loading in the powder charge, we carefully start(boat tail makes it easy)
bullet in case by hand, slide up in die, into holder, raise ram to to top, bullet seated
perfect. Die can have different thread in top as long as big enough to hold seating
bushing of some kind , that can be made from many items.

These target bullets held in by strong neck tension, no crimping needed, and notice
bullet point will get no marks or dents, fast, easy, no 380-500 buck special dies.
Bushing centering bullet on ogive is very accurate.

OVER 900 375HE cases piled behind presses getting done. About 600 on another
bench nearly ready. Small batches in shelves.And we will do more.

All 375 info, prints, specs, pictures, load data, etc, is public domain, worldwide,
for any target, hunting, etc, use..Ed


http://www.gunownerstv.com/boattailseat.jpg

[hubel458]

Here is picture of one of 3 buffs our guy from Canada got in

Africa with our 24ga FH he did on a NEF, in 2nd picture


http://www.gunownerstv.com/brianbuff.jpg


http://www.gunownerstv.com/briangun.jpg


Here is the neck die setup, with insert stems/plugs for the top that

are set in .020" steps to make our 375 HEs shown behind

from our 585HE cases. 900 cases behind and 600 on

another bench, mostly done, and 600 started elsewhere,

We also made a hydraulic form die, 375 HE test gun, starting with

lighter bullets, for example got 340 gr to 3700,

Will test up to 400gr We will find top speeds and powders needed

to get that, and have info where to get powders. Reamer prints are

at reamer guys, all prints and info is public domain... Ed

http://www.gunownerstv.com/necking375.jpg

[hubel458]

Picture of fellows at Vestals Gunsmithing test firing 585 HE

they built for a guy. They got 750 gr to almost 2800 from

ultra short barrel, not a full load . A regular barrel would be

over 2900, 14000 ft lbs with full load..

http://www.gunownerstv.com/585blast.jpg



Picture of our 375 HE cases, with little 378 WEA on left.

Middle case is with 330 gr, right case is 400gr bullet.

http://www.gunownerstv.com/375hecases.jpg


Here is picture of out 375HE testgun, in heavy t-hole stock.

So far 340 gr to 3700 and 360gr 3600.

http://www.gunownerstv.com/testgun.jpg


Next 416 HE target case, these run through the hydro-die,

test gun done,will complete testing soon, to confirm specs.

When specs set, info will be sent to reamer guys

Soon will have 408 HE with specs set up also, for guys,

Smaller case 416s and 408s can be reamed out for

our bigger case .Ed

http://www.gunownerstv.com/416he.jpg

[hubel458]

Here is picture of a brake on 12ga FH with real hot loaded
hollowbase lead slug, brake needed more clearance
for the expanding slug.

http://www.gunownerstv.com/bbrake.jpg


Here is the before and after of 375 HE cases
necked, 2 on left, and then formed in hydro die... Ed

http://www.gunownerstv.com/beforehydroafter.jpg


Here is pic of 416 HSM second from left we are experimenting
with, going to see if we can make the ultimate 416 ELR case.
Can be 3.60" to 4.00" long, a long one pictured.
Holds over 280 gr ball powder under bullet. The
3.6" case can hold about 250gr under bullet.. In picture,
1st case is 416 HE, 2nd 416 HSM, 3rd 375 He, 4th 378 WEA.

416 HSM will get 400gr to 4100 plus without needing BMG action,
470 gr 3800 plus , it may be the ultimate target, singleshot 416..
Case will work in fat bolt actions, with heavy enough barrel
to have good, milder, barrel harmonics and be under 50 lbs.
A lot of the 2 mile type shoots are adopting 50lb limit.

http://www.gunownerstv.com/416hsm.jpg

Here is picture of the 416 HSM fireformed once,
next to bmg case we make it from and as we
improve wildcatting process next few weeks
some specs may make small changes, now from
base to shoulder is 3.45", case 3.97" long. Ed..


http://www.gunownerstv.com/hsmbmg.jpg


Manson has 416 HE and 408 HE prints, as well as 375 HE
He can also make you a resize die reamer from that info.
We got 700 cases in 416 and one more pass if 408s wanted, ,
Going to do lot more cases for these 2 sizes,
PM or email. ph 989-644-5228..

Here are final specs for 416 HE.
Length 3.32", belt diameter ,655", base dia .635" ,
length base to to shoulder 2.860" , 30 deg shoulder.Ed

[hubel458]

Guys asking about strong economical bolt gun to use for 28ga and
410 ga and 32ga with brass cases and higher pressures than plastic cases.
They can use a MN bolt action, here is pic of one with
our 585 case in the action.Guys can get Magtech brass cases or have
RMC make them....Guys can make 32ga case from 500 NE,
410s from 9.3 x 74 brass, etc..

http://www.gunownerstv.com/585mosin2.jpg

Here is picture of our 416 HSM case sectioned next to original
BMG case on the right sectioned, to show that we still have
enough thickness in the sides to handle high pressure,
in a case with 310 gr capacity..We are getting the wildcatting
work set up so we can do at least hundred a month.
We have lots of 585s, 375HEs, 416 HEs, 408 HEs.....
And working toward getting 416 HSMs in big numbers.

http://www.gunownerstv.com/hsmsect.jpg

Here's comparison of 416 target cases, 1st 416 HE, have whole bunch.
Second is model of what I'd have made on medium machine, if I could,
the 416 HE Long. It has capacity of 230gr..
Third is our 416 HSM which we are working on making by wildcatting bmg
cases, And if had run long cases, make longer 375 HE necking down 416 ..

http://www.gunownerstv.com/416heexp.jpg


Bryan Litz just recently shot 3 shot group at 2 miles using Paul
Phillips heavy barreled, target rifle built by Lethal Precision in
375 Lethal Mag(585HE necked down, very similiar to 375HE )...
It grouped 17.5 inches tall by 22 inches wide.

Applied Ballistics shooter Mitch Fitzpatrick just hit 3 of 5 at 3520 yards,
weekend 10-13th at Valdina Ranch , west of San Antonio.
Also used the 375 LM case similar to our 375 HE
Great shooting at the 2017 World's Longest Shot Challenge. Ed

[hubel458]

The 12ga FH case now is in the new COTW book on
last page in the wildcat section, I think page 324.
They gave good credit to Rob for the idea of that case....


The model 416 HE long case in middle, hydro formed one,

has case capacity of 240 gr, and the 416 HSM in picture,

on the right, we fired a case twice, capacity is 320gr.. Ed..

http://www.gunownerstv.com/416heexp.jpg


Shooters talking more now; short, fat cases sticking, pockets not lasting as expected.
Trying to get best speeds the things raising pressures are bad case proportions, too fast of
powders, and the debth of the bullet into the powder space, as shown in the picture below..
My 375, 416, etc testing, bullets loaded like bottom one, in longer freebore....Ed.

http://www.gunownerstv.com/416inout.jpg

[hubel458]

A 585 HE ...shot with moderate heavy load......

https://scontent.cdninstagram.com/t50.2886-16/20404363_470558053312276_3772630570509533184_n.mp4


Here is a 375 HE target gun set up, by Asteroid Precision...

http://www.gunownerstv.com/375hehotrod.jpg


Here is video of it being tested... And with a 350gr bullet about 3450-3475,

bolt opened easily with one finger...And he's just getting started

and is checking on better powder, Ed..



https://www.facebook.com/AsteroidPrecision/videos/298031133934093/?fref=gs&dti=321360231548869&hc_location=group

[hubel458]

Here is recap simple setup to get faster loads with 12ga sabots

& slugs, Example using break actions...., reaming chamber

in a 12ga break action to 3.5" with a 3.5" 12ga reamer, that isn't

something needing special order, and use 3.5" plastic cases , or

get 3.5" brass cases made. With mag shotgun primers and

our slower powder loads you can get a quarter more speed,

which gives 50% more energy...


585 Hubel Express video, 190ft/lbs recoil, heavy load, gun little light.....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tyS9zZ8ElJA


Another view of Asteroid Precision's.... 375 HE target gun,

http://www.gunownerstv.com/375hehotrod2.jpg


Here is our 416 HSM we are developing next to 416 Barrett, Ed

http://www.gunownerstv.com/hsmbarrett.jpg

[hubel458]

For big long cases our testing is showing that the 416 easier to get powders to work with, less problems ..
Maybe building a target gun,don't have 375 barrel all ready, maybe go 416....

We got cases, 416 HE and 416 HSM, as well as 375...
CEB and others will have bullets...CEB will be doing .416 in 450gr, 475gr, 500gr, 525gr and 550gr

Got sent 5 thick sided sample cases, same OD base as 585/375.416 cases, same belt, just .180" longer,
did a 416 HE, chambered extra barrel , cases stick over 50k. They have about .042" total taper, .021" per
side, when I necked couple to 416. That is a lot of taper , twice the taper of my 416HE...hanging up at 50k..

I could maybe go to 65k with these if we made taper with ..012" - .016" more taper to each side, but that is
no way to build target cases. I'd have to crunch down case shoulder diameter. And would look like 30-30.

And crazy part is, the case has enough brass material to thin up sides and stretch them way out to 4 or
more inches,, They weigh 150 gr more than our 585/375/416,, but with real thick sides they actually
hold less than our 416 HE with thin sides, that is .180" shorter...Our case does 65k ok without sticking..

And we can make super long 4" cases work if we had means to get them built, as we have
15 powders slower than HBMG.Here is pic of thin and thick sided cases, sectioned for comparison.Ed..


http://www.gunownerstv.com/thickthin.jpg

[hubel458]

Here is a drawing depicting the layout of thick and thin sided cases,
like my 585/375/416 HE thin sided ones and the thick one in picture.

And my 585 case is not perfect, as where it transitions from the
heavier corner to the side it isn't gradual, so case separates there
shortening case life. There are others made that way including brand X.
The dotted line is what it should be............

http://www.gunownerstv.com/casedrawing.jpg

Others have sent cases to section and look at, that are built thick sided and they
stick also for the folks, If a longer case with about 5 sq in of side surface sticks and
don't spring back, the coefficient of friction is about .01 then the pull needed to move
it is 2500-3500 lbs..That is for big cases with normal amount of slant to the sides.

Here is picture of six nyati and gibbs size cases sectioned.. the5th one is present 585 HE
and 6th is thick sided version. 1st 600 OK which essentially nyati basic case left straight, belt added

http://www.gunownerstv.com/allnyati.jpg

In the picture the nyati gma is one we built most of our first 585s on. Before we had factory run.
Reworking made it in size that is my 585 HE, but that brass had the sides of perfect thickness,
not too thick, but thin without sharp transition my new factory 585s had, they last forever as 585s......

Fourth one is an older nyati case I used to make about 10 of my 585s from,had thin sides, heavy corner
and sharp transition from the corner, tested 20 years ago, and they would separate after 4-6 hot loads
as 585s, my factory 585 with right powders, as a 585 will get 10 hot loads, and necked down to
416/375 4- 6 hot loads, right powders used, Moderate 577 equivalent, factory 585 at least 20 loads..Ed.

[hubel458]

Guy sent thick sided 375 case, next size base diameter up from Nyati.He said,
'Yes I ran them in a ___________ rifle built by ____, the best I
could get was 44000 psi, any more and they were stuck''

Big bore guys. other forums over the years related that trex/african case in 585
size, thick sided cases, stuck when they loaded them over 45k psi.

Another just sent us, thick sided 375, long case, same base OD as our 585 HE,
416 HE, 375 HE, and Mitch's 375 Lethal, and the thick ones stuck over 45k psi.

Now you can fill those cases up, with ultra slow enough powder so they won't
stick, but powder is too slow for max speed. Might get a little more
speed, with thick sides case, but case got to be 4- 4.5 inches long..

. Anyone needing a sectioned case of the ones I made the first of my 585s from,
contact me, if they want to get a general idea of what case side thickness should
be, in Gibbs size cases on up to about trex and 375 VM size case diameter.

Here is pic of our 585 based case next to brand X and thick ones, both have
same sharp, thinner, corner, where transition from heavy angled corner, to the
side, the carbide draw rod could easily be reshaped with diamond wheel,
just by grinding off sharp transition corner. Then sides would be perfect.., .

http://www.gunownerstv.com/brandxthick.jpg


Here is picture of 416 HE in a Choate target/varmint stock guy is doing,
using long action BSA U9 action.Setting in stock ready to do bedding..Ed

http://www.gunownerstv.com/choate416he.jpg

[hubel458]

Here is picture of thick 375 case sent to me, with thick sided trex case, and our HE case,
The thick 375 case is .050" bigger OD base, but inside is no bigger than HE cases..
These thick sided 375s stuck for the guy using them, when loaded over 44,000 psi....

http://www.gunownerstv.com/brandv.jpg

Got guys asking and doing it, to do 416 HSM case for BMG actions, so leaving rim same,
as the original bmg rim, so will neck them, fire form to the longer shoulder, like the others.
Base a little bigger, Shoulder same diameter, same 30 degree slant, neck will be same..

Inside of case still has close to same shape, volumne within 3 % as ones we slimmed down more.
Some want to use bmg actions and can't wait for intermediate actions, or already have bmg action.
And they are really getting interested in the complete line of 416 CEB bullets now being done
clear up to 550 gr...

So there will be 3 versions, one for actions .750" bolt, one for .800-.850" bolt,
And one for bigger bmg bolts. The ones for BMG called 416 HSM2 ..

Here is 416 HSM guy working in a Montana PH, in a heavy thumbhole target stock. Ed


http://www.gunownerstv.com/mrcphhsm.jpg

[l921428x]

I hope it weighs 10+

[hubel458]

About 30 without tripod..

Here is sectioned 585 HE case in the middle, we first made from

another case, years ago before we had factory run of brass and

it had perfect thickness on the sides and inside corrner.

We could fire them many times without sides thinning..

First case is factory run of our 585 HE, 3rd is case that is too

thick of sides and sticks at high pressures..

http://www.gunownerstv.com/goodone.jpg

Pic of our factory run cases necked down to 375 and fired 4 times

at high pressure on the right, with unfired case on the left.

Our case is not perfect but does work...Ed

http://www.gunownerstv.com/he4times.jpg

[hubel458]

About 416 cal bullets............

The heaviest 550 gr for Extreme ELR probably be best 8 to 1 twist , in 416 caliber bullet,
and 520 gr 9.5 to 1, and 470gr 10 to one, Some barrels I picked up are 10 to 1.......

Now a novel idea is to lighten rear of bullet with small shallow hole drilled in base, might do better
long range.which would allow 10 to one barrel stabilize the heavier 550 gr bullets for ELR.
Making bullet nose heavier makes it more stable in flight, needing less spin,
like our hollow base 585 cal minie bullets only need 48 to 1 twist, or less
while out regular 585 bullets need about 24 to 1 to stabilise them..............

The winner of the King Of 2 Mile shoot last week was using 416 Barrett with a 1 to 10
twist, with a 500 gr CEB Lazer bullet, ...Robert Brantley, with Manners Stocks....

Paul Philips was third with a 416...

GOOD NEWS-- There is now an importer and seller of our 585 HE brass getting set up here,
in US, hopefully will be in stock, few weeks........ http://bertrambrass.com .. .. Caleb Hallet..

Have got another intermediate size action besides the Montana PH our guys working on,
to do speed testingwith. It is big long REM style action that can take our 416 HSM, ED

[hubel458]

Experimental intermediate size action with the Montana PH, for comparison.

It is an experimental action for our 416 HSM, to do our speed testing with

and get a better action than Cheytac size actions, for bigger case ELR use,

without going all way up to more expensive, huge actions.

It is big long round style action that can take our 416 HSM, almost

1.6" diameter action and .800" bolt, with locking lugs nearly as big as most

BMG actions.... ED


http://www.gunownerstv.com/intermediates.jpg

[hubel458]

Here is picture of the bolt from the experimental action,

with our 416 HSM case in it. Note the amount of the

base size of locking lugs, the amount of area on the bolt..


http://www.gunownerstv.com/interboltp.jpg


Here is link to guy doing special 585 HE in the EU,

Good pictures............www.585he.cz

We tested intermediate action with a 700HE barrel we had here.

Just temporary to test strength. 1000 gr over 3100..

Action worked fine.. Ed.

[hubel458]

Here is video of early water barrel test of the

12ga From Hell, from years ago.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c48zTpsgbuk


Here is picture from that video..

http://www.gunownerstv.com/Shot%203.jpg



Here is the intermediate size action for 416 HSM with test barrel, .Ed

http://www.gunownerstv.com/intertargetp.jpg

[hubel458]

In 416 HSM got a 415 gr long target bullet 3800,

with plain barrel, no brake, on intermediate action,

Now my 416 HE gets same 415gr bullet to 3300.Ed

[hubel458]

Here is picture of our 416HSM cases with screw in shellholders,

for Ammomaster, etc, and slip in shellholders for regular presses

Also have some for big LEE Classic and Smart Reloader presses..

A 378 WEA MAG in picture for comparison...


Second is stacks of 416 HSM, about a third fireformed

and the rest to be fireformed... So far total about 1700, Ed



http://www.gunownerstv.com/hsmholders.jpg



http://www.gunownerstv.com/workinghsm.jpg

[hubel458]

Bob Snapp, 90, the great Gun Craftsman, of

Clare, Michigan, passed away Jan 28th....

He was an esteemed member of the

American Custom Gunmakers Guild,

Being its president in 1992..He liked

working with Martini Cadet singleshot rifles

.Worked with guys testing armor long time ago.

Maybe the 1st to do 20mm necked down to 50cal

We lost a great friend,,,Ed

[hubel458]

.....


It is possible rig up holders for many types setups.,

About shellholder supply for big cases,

RCBS and others make slip in holders for shotgun cases

that can work or reworked for big rimmed rifle cases...

Here are various sizes.......

16ga-- .810" rim,........ 20ga-- .760" rim,....

24ga-- .725" rim,....... 28ga .680" rim....

Ch4d and Buffalo Arms also have these larger shellholders...


We fireform the 416 HSM with 65 gr of medium speed

surplus powder, with rest of case filled with farina

and grits mix, with a play dough plug in the neck.

It is loud, so we shoot it into big container through a barrel size

size hole, so the sound is muffled, so it doesn't deafen us..


It is great getting more companies making 416 caliber bullets,

long target and bore rider bullets. Ed..



....

[hubel458]

Wonder if a PTRD with 5 ft long barrel is stable enough

for ELR , rebarrel to 416 and use our 416 HSM, 500 gr bullet ....

.Here is up north guy using 585 HE in a PTRD with inserts,

Light load.....Inserts are in the shape of the 14.5mm case....


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jyabm-cbwgc&feature=youtu.be


HERE ia video, 585 Hubel Express and water jugs - slow motion

750 gr with 155gr RE17, just a moderate load.....Ed


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uXAo1mJqw8Y

[hubel458]

20mm Vulcan is a big case that works ok, without having

the sides made too thick...They have thinner sides

than smaller cases guys are getting that have the sides

made too thick and won't extract easy or work with high pressures.


Here Barnard P Cheytac bolt that would do for our 416 HSM..Ed......

http://www.gunownerstv.com/barnpchey.jpg

[hubel458]

Got guys doing various 416 HEs..

One just built a 416 HE, just been testing it a few days..

And using 168gr of HBMG 475 gr CEB, tested it, in good

conditions, 2 shots at 1800 yards and was within

a 1/4 of minute accuracy...A few shots at shorter ranges

had same accuracy. Ed..

[hubel458]

More about our 416 HSM from BMG brass, and
our 416 HE & 460 HE from our 585 HE cases
Got reamers for 375 HE, 416 HE and 416 HSM,....

460 HE & 460 HSM are all spec'd, got HE reamer
soon have HSM reamer...Our HSMs have a Wea type
radius on the shoulder..

The fellow that set up our 416 HE in an ELR rifle
and got 1/4 min accuracy,
They got some game out west over 1400 yds..
.Here is the gun they set up.
Using a K&P 34" barrel on a BAT action.....Ed

http://www.gunownerstv.com/jacobgun.jpg

[hubel458]

And have got 460 HSM specs setup, the impetus for that is some
asking about one and new great line of 458 bullets CEB now has.

It will hold more powder than the 416 HSM and will get
a 572 gr as fast as 416 HSM gets a 475gr.....Ed..

[alismith]

These are your newest set of T-Rex class bullets, right? ;)

[hubel458]

Yes--
The guys that did the super accurate 416 HE did another
416 HE that has an 8" longer 42 inch K&P barrel..

Used a Stiller action and same load with 475 gr bullet, as in
first gun and and gained about 200 fps with good accuracy.
3065 fps. Tested 2 groups of 3 and less than 1/2 min moa.

And loads they used are not the highest speed loads
the cartridge is capable of....Here is print with specs for
the 416 HE reamer chamber ....Ed....

http://www.gunownerstv.com/416heream.jpg

[hubel458]

More about he guys that did the accurate 416 HE, they did a
416 HE that has an 8" longer 42 inch K&P barrel..

Used longer barrel and the same load with 475 gr bullet, as used
in the first gun and and gained about 200 fps with good accuracy,.
3065 fps. Tested 2 groups of 3 and less than 1/2 min moa.

And loads they used are not the highest speed loads
the cartridge is capable of....Here is picture.......Ed....


http://www.gunownerstv.com/jacobgun2.jpg

[hubel458]

Away for a time, sickness..
Here is print with chamber reamer specs for the
416 HSM chamber..There are 3 base sizes we have,
depending on actions used. Got reamers for all 3..
Got cases for all of them..
Our cases are public domain, so that is why I post
info and specs. To help guys do their own setups.
Manson makes reamers I use,,, Ed.
http://www.gunownerstv.com/416hsmream.jpg

[hubel458]

Here is reamer print with chamber reamer specs for
the 460 HSM chamber .Couple guys getting set
to do 38-40 inch heavy 458 target barrels...Ed....
http://www.gunownerstv.com/460hsmream.jpg

[hubel458]

With 40 inch barrel 416 HSM ,475 gr, get 3650, over 13,000 ft lbs muzzle energy.
Got guys getting set to have 38-40 inch 458 barrels made for 460 HSM.Ed..

[hubel458]

More info on this gun, we did it for testing 416 HSM with a rebated rim,
to check in intermediate size actions, with the longer, stronger, bolt lugs, Ed..
http://www.gunownerstv.com/intertargetp.jpg

[hubel458]

Here is experimental action for 416 HSM in a heavy
stock....We lengthened port a little, set bolt stop back ,
opened bolt face fit the 416 HSM rebated rim. Ed.
http://www.gunownerstv.com/intertarget.jpg
Here is comparison of Montana PH to Pierce action we
modified to use for rebated rim 416 HSM testing..Ed.
http://www.gunownerstv.com/intermediates.jpg

[hubel458]

416 & 460 HE AND 416 & 460 HSM .LONG RANGE AND HUNTING
Can be set up in Pierce X10 ACTION for the 416 & 460 HE
AND X20 action for the 416 & 460 HSM , Can get those
if guys need one...Ed

[ltorlo64]

What you are doing is cool, but I have no idea what I would use it for, or how I would get ammo for it!

[hubel458]

We have cases and you just load your own..

Here is picture of my 416 HSM test gun,... It is a big falling block we had
as a 8 bore years ago. Has a 34 inch , 1 5/8 "diameter, 1 to 10 twist barrel. .. Ed.


http://www.gunownerstv.com/hsmfb.jpg

[ltorlo64]

With the push to ban the deceptively named "ghost guns" and do it yourself firearms, how will you continue with your research and development? Are you concerned at all?

[hubel458]

The ghost guns they think about it seems are AR kinda stuff.

WE setup test barrels for 460HSM and 585, to also use in that FB. Ed