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El Laton Caliente
10-28-2011, 02:28 PM
The Coming Derivatives Crisis That Could Destroy The Entire Global Financial System


Most people have no idea that Wall Street has become a gigantic financial casino. The big Wall Street banks are making tens of billions of dollars a year in the derivatives market, and nobody in the financial community wants the party to end. The word "derivatives" sounds complicated and technical, but understanding them is really not that hard. A derivative is essentially a fancy way of saying that a bet has been made. Originally, these bets were designed to hedge risk, but today the derivatives market has mushroomed into a mountain of speculation unlike anything the world has ever seen before. Estimates of the notional value of the worldwide derivatives market go from $600 trillion all the way up to $1.5 quadrillion. Keep in mind that the GDP of the entire world is only somewhere in the neighborhood of $65 trillion. The danger to the global financial system posed by derivatives is so great that Warren Buffet once called them "financial weapons of mass destruction". For now, the financial powers that be are trying to keep the casino rolling, but it is inevitable that at some point this entire mess is going to come crashing down. When it does, we are going to be facing a derivatives crisis that really could destroy the entire global financial system.

Most people don't talk much about derivatives because they simply do not understand them.

Perhaps a couple of definitions would be helpful.

The following is how a recent Bloomberg article defined derivatives....


Derivatives are financial instruments used to hedge risks or for speculation. They’re derived from stocks, bonds, loans, currencies and commodities, or linked to specific events such as changes in the weather or interest rates.


The key word there is "speculation". Today the folks down on Wall Street are speculating on just about anything that you can imagine.

The following is how Investopedia defines derivatives....


A security whose price is dependent upon or derived from one or more underlying assets. The derivative itself is merely a contract between two or more parties. Its value is determined by fluctuations in the underlying asset. The most common underlying assets include stocks, bonds, commodities, currencies, interest rates and market indexes. Most derivatives are characterized by high leverage.


A derivative has no underlying value of its own. A derivative is essentially a side bet. Usually these side bets are highly leveraged.

At this point, making side bets has totally gotten out of control in the financial world. Side bets are being made on just about anything you can possibly imagine, and the major Wall Street banks are making a ton of money from it. This system is almost entirely unregulated and it is totally dominated by the big international banks.

Over the past couple of decades, the derivatives market has multiplied in size. Everything is going to be fine as long as the system stays in balance. But once it gets out of balance we could witness a string of financial crashes that no government on earth will be able to fix.

The amount of money that we are talking about is absolutely staggering. Graham Summers of Phoenix Capital Research estimates that the notional value of the global derivatives market is $1.4 quadrillion, and in an article for Seeking Alpha he tried to put that number into perspective....


If you add up the value of every stock on the planet, the entire market capitalization would be about $36 trillion. If you do the same process for bonds, you’d get a market capitalization of roughly $72 trillion.

The notional value of the derivative market is roughly $1.4 QUADRILLION.

I realize that number sounds like something out of Looney tunes, so I’ll try to put it into perspective.

$1.4 Quadrillion is roughly:

-40 TIMES THE WORLD’S STOCK MARKET.

-10 TIMES the value of EVERY STOCK & EVERY BOND ON THE PLANET.

-23 TIMES WORLD GDP.


It is hard to fathom how much money a quadrillion is.

If you started counting right now at one dollar per second, it would take 32 million years to count to one quadrillion dollars.

Yes, the boys and girls down on Wall Street have gotten completely and totally out of control.

In an excellent article that he did on derivatives, Webster Tarpley described the pivotal role that derivatives now play in the global financial system....


Far from being some arcane or marginal activity, financial derivatives have come to represent the principal business of the financier oligarchy in Wall Street, the City of London, Frankfurt, and other money centers. A concerted effort has been made by politicians and the news media to hide and camouflage the central role played by derivative speculation in the economic disasters of recent years. Journalists and public relations types have done everything possible to avoid even mentioning derivatives, coining phrases like “toxic assets,” “exotic instruments,” and – most notably – “troubled assets,” as in Troubled Assets Relief Program or TARP, aka the monstrous $800 billion bailout of Wall Street speculators which was enacted in October 2008 with the support of Bush, Henry Paulson, John McCain, Sarah Palin, and the Obama Democrats.


Most people do not realize this, but derivatives were at the center of the financial crisis of 2008.

They will almost certainly be at the center of the next financial crisis as well.

For many, alarm bells went off the other day when it was revealed that Bank of America has moved a big chunk of derivatives from its failing Merrill Lynch investment banking unit to its depository arm.

So what does that mean?

An article posted on The Daily Bail the other day explained that it means that U.S. taxpayers could end up holding the bag....


This means that the investment bank's European derivatives exposure is now backstopped by U.S. taxpayers. Bank of America didn't get regulatory approval to do this, they just did it at the request of frightened counterparties. Now the Fed and the FDIC are fighting as to whether this was sound. The Fed wants to "give relief" to the bank holding company, which is under heavy pressure.

This is a direct transfer of risk to the taxpayer done by the bank without approval by regulators and without public input.


So did you hear about this on the news?

Probably not.

Today, the notional value of all the derivatives held by Bank of America comes to approximately $75 trillion.

JPMorgan Chase is holding derivatives with a notional value of about $79 trillion.

It is hard to even conceive of such figures.

Right now, the banks with the most exposure to derivatives are JPMorgan Chase, Bank of America, Goldman Sachs, Citigroup, Wells Fargo and HSBC Bank USA.

Morgan Stanley also has tremendous exposure to derivatives.

You may have noticed that these are some of the "too big to fail" banks.

The biggest U.S. banks continue to grow and they continue to get even more power.

Back in 2002, the top 10 U.S. banks controlled 55 percent of all U.S. banking assets. Today, the top 10 U.S. banks control 77 percent of all U.S. banking assets.

These banks have gotten so big and so powerful that if they collapsed our entire financial system would implode.

You would have thought that we would have learned our lesson back in 2008 and would have done something about this, but instead we have allowed the "too big to bail" banks to become bigger than ever.

And they pretty much do whatever they want.

A while back, the New York Times published an article entitled "A Secretive Banking Elite Rules Trading in Derivatives". That article exposed the steel-fisted control that the "too big to fail" banks exert over the trading of derivatives. Just consider the following excerpt from the article....


On the third Wednesday of every month, the nine members of an elite Wall Street society gather in Midtown Manhattan.

The men share a common goal: to protect the interests of big banks in the vast market for derivatives, one of the most profitable — and controversial — fields in finance. They also share a common secret: The details of their meetings, even their identities, have been strictly confidential.


So what institutions are represented at these meetings?

Well, according to the New York Times, the following banks are involved: JPMorgan Chase, Goldman Sachs, Morgan Stanley, Bank of America and Citigroup.

Why do those same five names seem to keep popping up time after time?

Sadly, these five banks keep pouring money into the campaigns of politicians that supported the bailouts in 2008 and that they know will bail them out again when the next financial crisis strikes.

Those that defend the wild derivatives trading that is going on today claim that Wall Street has accounted for all of the risks and they assume that the issuing banks will always be able to cover all of the derivative contracts that they write.

But that is a faulty assumption. Just look at AIG back in 2008. When the housing market collapsed AIG was on the wrong end of a massive number of derivative contracts and it would have gone "bust" without gigantic bailouts from the federal government. If the bailouts of AIG had not happened, Goldman Sachs and a whole lot of other people would have been left standing there with a whole bunch of worthless paper.

It is inevitable that the same thing is going to happen again. Except next time it may be on a much grander scale.

When "the house" goes "bust", everybody loses. The governments of the world could step in and try to bail everyone out, but the reality is that when the derivatives market comes totally crashing down there won't be any government on earth with enough money to put it back together again.

A horrible derivatives crisis is coming.

It is only a matter of time.

Stay alert for any mention of the word "derivatives" or the term "derivatives crisis" in the news. When the derivatives crisis arrives, things will start falling apart very rapidly.

http://theeconomiccollapseblog.com/archives/the-coming-derivatives-crisis-that-could-destroy-the-entire-global-financial-system


I had no idea it was this BIG. How the hell can a hand full of banks run up "hedge bets" worth 23 times what the whole world produces in a year? Talk about the mother of all market bubbles!!! This can do nothing BUT crash.

imanaknut
10-28-2011, 02:35 PM
Wasn't it speculation that caused the first "great" depression? Never ceases to amaze me how people can't seem to learn from history. I guess when the lust for money is thrown in, history is thrown out.

El Laton Caliente
10-28-2011, 02:47 PM
Hell, it was uncontroled speculation that caused the TULIP market bubble. That was in the 1600's! The South Sea bubble... The last 400 years are full of examples.

BUT 23 times the gross product of the world! Now that is a bubble!

Warthogg
10-28-2011, 02:55 PM
Wasn't it speculation that caused the first "great" depression?

At least in part due to not enough money in circulation.

Don't forget, the Federal Reserve was already in bidness. (Since 1913.)



Wart

Cypher
10-28-2011, 03:24 PM
Oh it's no big deal guy, they will just print a few trillion dollars, now here's a few tickets to the super bowl go have some fun :thumbsup:

El Laton Caliente
10-28-2011, 03:57 PM
Well, that would be One Thousand Four Hundred Trillion Dollars. Or $1,400,000,000,000,000.00

On another note, I didn't know there was that much money in circulation.

O.S.O.K.
10-28-2011, 04:29 PM
If the bottom falls out from under this - that is if the bets start to come due and can't be paid.... money as we know it will become worthless paper.

Still think buying gold is silly?

And where you are, what you have posession of... will be it. It will be what you have to survive with.

Beans and bullets... beans and bullets.

Think about this.

This is even worse than our national debt witch is bad enough as it is - "only" $14.5 trillion...

Shit - I am now worrying about if I'll be able to get my ass setup in Mississippi before the bottom falls out.

coppertales
10-28-2011, 05:15 PM
the "me" generation that is running things now. They want their billions and they want it now so they can retire at 35.....chris3

El Laton Caliente
10-28-2011, 07:28 PM
Money for nothing and your chicks for free...

Sergi762
10-28-2011, 07:50 PM
Oh Blimey.....this might hurt..

Warthogg
10-28-2011, 07:53 PM
the "me" generation that is running things now. They want their billions and they want it now so they can retire at 35.....chris3

This is the fault of all of us old enough to vote. The older the more culpable as those older have voted in more elections. We elect fools and thieves and reelect more than 90%. We elected Dubya Bush....twice. We then elected Barry.

Sighhhhh....we suck.:crying_small::baaa:


Wart

Warthogg
10-28-2011, 08:05 PM
Far from being some arcane or marginal activity, financial derivatives have come to represent the principal business of the financier oligarchy in Wall Street, the City of London, Frankfurt, and other money centers. A concerted effort has been made by politicians and the news media to hide and camouflage the central role played by derivative speculation in the economic disasters of recent years. Journalists and public relations types have done everything possible to avoid even mentioning derivatives, coining phrases like “toxic assets,” “exotic instruments,”

and – most notably – “troubled assets,” as in Troubled Assets Relief Program or TARP, aka the monstrous $800 billion bailout of Wall Street speculators which was enacted in October 2008 with the support of Bush, Henry Paulson, John McCain, Sarah Palin, and the Obama Democrats.


Program or TARP, aka the monstrous $800 billion bailout of Wall Street speculators which was enacted in October 2008 with the support of Bush, Henry Paulson, John McCain, Sarah Palin, and the Obama Democrats.







FINALLY someone besides me saying rethuglican...dimocrat....all rats eating from the same turd.


Wart

O.S.O.K.
10-28-2011, 09:53 PM
OK, I found the "definition" of what derivatives are. It's not hard to understand what they are but when you add all of the different kinds and the different "uses" for them, then it gets hard to understand.

They are basically bets like buying futures or betting that a stock will tank -that sort of thing and are also "insurance" - you buy a bet that the exchange rates on currency will go against you in order to cover your losses on other areas of investments that are affected by it... etc.

It seems that there are many different ways that derivatives are used....

I guess that an analogy would be a craps game. The market is the table and the banks are the dealer. You put your money down, the dice are rolled and some win and some lose, but the table always makes money off of the game.

So, now I'm trying to understand how this can be a "bubble" - like the housing bubble. The housing bubble is easy to understand - the house values go higher than the incomes of the buyer's justify and therefore are "inflated" obove where they should be. That's a "bubble". Same thing for stocks - only the ratio is prices to earnings...

But how are derivatives "over priced"? And by what "mechanism" would they all be called in or whatever to cause a crash? I mean, there are so many different types and uses... seems like there can't be one or even just a few things that would cause a crash...

I mean, in the above example, AIG made too many of one kind of bet (apparently on housing prices) and with the housing bubble crash, they lost a shit load of money - but that's just one bank, or a few.

Are they all making the same kind of bets? Is that the problem or the mechanism? Is that the worry? That they're all making the same bets say on the value of the dollar and if the dollar's value suddenly drops, they all loose so much that nobody can bail them all out, so they're failures start a domino effect?

My head hurts.

Warthogg
10-28-2011, 11:04 PM
My head hurts.

My head also hurts and I'm tired. Of course that means still I will blunder in.

I don't know that this is first but I gotta start some where.

AIG WAS CORRUPT. Not just a little bit but a lot. Their board of directors was w-e-a-k with maybe only two qualified.

The banks and Wall Street wanted to be in the sub prime housing market (and the auto loan market and the credit card market and.....).... .

So mortgages were 'bundled'....securitized. The bundles included sub prime paper but with more than enough good stuff to offset...HA !

The rating agencies - Moody's, Standard and Poor's - had to give these bundles a rating......a AAA rating.
So the rating agencies are bought. (Supposedly court-side tickets to a Laker's game was enough for some.)

Now the schitt has been bundled by the mortgage companies/banks/Wall Street. The rating agencies have been bought.

NOW comes AIG. The banks wanted the profit but did not want the risk. So comes AIG with DERIVATIVES to mitigate the bank's risk.* Insure the banks against loss for a share of the profits if you will.

The securitized mortgage bundles start to go south. Soon it is more than painfully obvious this schitt is not AAA but junk...sub-prime junk.

AIG cannot pay. Toooo much schitttt.

(Notice how many players had to be corrupt for this scam to work.)

Finally, along comes the Dubya Bush administration and allows the taxpayer to bail out everyone.....AIG, Wall Street, the Banks...everyone.


Wart

One guy knew something stunk and sued under the Freedom of Information Act and finally received documentation on some securitized paper. He was speechless for a moment and then moved to make billions. I'm sure others must have also caught on to the scam but I only know of one guy for sure.

Edited to add:

The profits on these derivatives is booked in advance. Bonuses for everyone !!


*AIG could lay off part of their risk by buying a CREDIT DERIVATIVE from another company.

Warthogg
10-28-2011, 11:06 PM
There's at least a 20% chance something I posted above is correct.:baaa::lol2::toke:


Wart

O.S.O.K.
10-29-2011, 11:19 AM
No, I remember this. The fuckers were knowingly packaging shit loans (that they knew were likely to have a very high failure rate) and offering them to unknowing investors...

The TARP should've never been done. We have Chapeter 11 bankruptcy for a reason.

W started it and then obummer, seeing his chance, used it to buy-off the UAW and other unions for ever.

I THINK THIS KIND OF THREAD AND THE OTHER FINANCIAL - ECONOMIC THREADS SHOULD STAY AT THE TOP OF THE DISCUSSION LIST HERE...

We are heading into a real bad situation that will affect all of us negatively and deeply. And it's really important to have some idea what's going on so that you can prepare for it the best you can.

I hope the board members are keeping up with this.... :(

El Laton Caliente
10-29-2011, 12:44 PM
The bubble is a bubble because there is not enough money in the world to pay off the current prices of the bets. The whole thing has become a paper tiger. Like the stock market of 1928 where stocks were priced 100 times the value of a company something has to give. When it does, and the mortgage crisis almost was the first domino, the whole house of cards comes down and all the casinos [banks] go broke.

I can see why GWB did what he did. If TARP hadn't happened the whole system would have come down on his watch. I'm not sure anyone really understood where this was going except the top bankers involved. And I'll bet they have a lot of assets in gold...

The more people that understand this the closer we will be to a self fulfilling prophecy. As investors try to pull out of the derivatives market prices will drop. When it becomes a herd mentality the game is over.

O.S.O.K.
10-29-2011, 02:22 PM
Yeah, what you are saying is that it won't necessarily be the derivatives market that goes, but it's vulnerable to the other markets - just like in 2008.

And when it does come down - we are all in economic hell.

And at that point, posession will be 9/10th of the law - only what you have and what it's intrinsic "real" value is will determin worth. Yes, silver and gold will have worth but only if you can feed youself... and defend yourself and keep your ass warm.

O.S.O.K.
10-29-2011, 02:33 PM
Oh and yes, I bet the fucking bankers are all setup with bug out locations and stacks of precious metals so that they'll be in the catbird seat when things come back. They'll be buying up land and real estate.

But they probably aren't considering that there's going to be a world of really pissed off people and we will be looking for the perpetrators of our hurt... :sniper:

El Laton Caliente
10-29-2011, 02:45 PM
Can you imagine the average New York Banker trying to live off the land.

mrkalashnikov
10-29-2011, 02:50 PM
My head also hurts and I'm tired. Of course that means still I will blunder in.

I don't know that this is first but I gotta start some where.

AIG WAS CORRUPT. Not just a little bit but a lot. Their board of directors was w-e-a-k with maybe only two qualified.

The banks and Wall Street wanted to be in the sub prime housing market (and the auto loan market and the credit card market and.....).... .

So mortgages were 'bundled'....securitized. The bundles included sub prime paper but with more than enough good stuff to offset...HA !

The rating agencies - Moody's, Standard and Poor's - had to give these bundles a rating......a AAA rating.
So the rating agencies are bought. (Supposedly court-side tickets to a Laker's game was enough for some.)

Now the schitt has been bundled by the mortgage companies/banks/Wall Street. The rating agencies have been bought.

NOW comes AIG. The banks wanted the profit but did not want the risk. So comes AIG with DERIVATIVES to mitigate the bank's risk.* Insure the banks against loss for a share of the profits if you will.

The securitized mortgage bundles start to go south. Soon it is more than painfully obvious this schitt is not AAA but junk...sub-prime junk.

AIG cannot pay. Toooo much schitttt.

(Notice how many players had to be corrupt for this scam to work.)

Finally, along comes the Dubya Bush administration and allows the taxpayer to bail out everyone.....AIG, Wall Street, the Banks...everyone.


Wart

One guy knew something stunk and sued under the Freedom of Information Act and finally received documentation on some securitized paper. He was speechless for a moment and then moved to make billions. I'm sure others must have also caught on to the scam but I only know of one guy for sure.

Edited to add:

The profits on these derivatives is booked in advance. Bonuses for everyone !!


*AIG could lay off part of their risk by buying a CREDIT DERIVATIVE from another company.

Very good post, Wart.

From my readings & (limited) understanding of what led to our financial debacles of recent years you've listed some good bullet points of how said debacles came about.

Imho some of the CEO's and other top executives of the most corrupt & blameworthy financial institutions, i.e. AIG, etc should have been imprisoned for their part in the whole sh*t storm that destroyed so many Americans finances & lives; if not publicly executed, which I don't believe is going too far when it comes to dealing with the scum who perpetrated the whole mess. Instead...said scum were actually rewarded for their malfeasance by our government, and subsequently made even more millions of $$$ in bonuses & salaries. :swear:

In the meantime...once again...the US middle-class tax payer has been left holding the proverbial bag.

Warthogg
10-29-2011, 07:04 PM
In the meantime...once again...the US.........tax payer has been left holding the proverbial bag.

Exactly. May be hard for us to believe but the Federal Reserve Bank just carried out the plan conceived on Jekyll Island in 1910. .......shift the losses of major banks - this time insurance companies, foreign banks and Wall Street were included - to the taxpayer.


Wart

O.S.O.K.
10-30-2011, 11:32 AM
Rather than discuss the specifics of our conundrum further, I think we should all be concentrating on WHAT WE CAN DO ABOUT IT.

I don't think we can do anything to change the overall situation can we?

So, the only thing we can do is prepare ourselves as best we can.

I appreciate that this was posted as I didn't know the extent to which this had developed. Further, I didn't really understand this side of the financial industry - and now I understand it more...

El Laton Caliente
10-30-2011, 11:34 AM
I'll admit it, I'm scared...

O.S.O.K.
10-30-2011, 12:01 PM
Me too.

The more I delve into things, the more scared I get.

And my biggest concern is that I won't have time to get "situated"... once I do that, I'll feel better. Like I've done what I can...

Warthogg
10-30-2011, 12:07 PM
Rather than discuss the specifics of our conundrum further, I think we should all be concentrating on WHAT WE CAN DO ABOUT IT.

I don't think we can do anything to change the overall situation can we?

So, the only thing we can do is prepare ourselves as best we can.

I appreciate that this was posted as I didn't know the extent to which this had developed. Further, I didn't really understand this side of the financial industry - and now I understand it more...


Further, I didn't really understand this side of the financial industry - and now I understand it more..


It's one thing for non-financial people such as most of us here not to understand the complexities of these schemes but I'm far from sure the so-called financial experts understood. JP Morgan wanted a mechanism to transfer risk to third parties so its employee - Blythe Masters - invented the Credit Default Swap (CDS)*. Seemingly none of them realized SOME ENTITY will not have a chair when the music stops.

Did these very smart people believe EVERYONE could lay off their risk ??



Wart


*Credit Default Swaps were largely responsible for bringing down Bear Stearns, AIG, WaMu and other huge corporations. Did even these giants understand ??

Warthogg
10-30-2011, 12:25 PM
I don't think we can do anything to change the overall situation can we?



(First let me be right up front and say I consider the State of Israel to be the enemy of my country...the United States of America.)

For any rapid change, I think we must have a large external event. Israel just completed a long-awaited prisoner exchange. It may be that BennytheNut is clearing his political decks for an action against Iran.

Should Israel attack Iran and the Muslim oil exporting countries shut off the oil, I would expect the .gov here to fall within a very few months. Maybe in one month.

The horror of that internal conflict I am unable to imagine. We Americans have the tools of destruction that will make Libya's internal war look like afternoon tea at the Dorchester.


Wart

American Rage
10-30-2011, 12:31 PM
This has all been planned. The goal is one global currency and one global economy being ruled by a global government.

I blame the commies in D.C., beginning at the very least with the Clintons. Obama is simply the end game.

We'll see what the future holds, but it don't look good for any of us.

sevlex
10-30-2011, 12:52 PM
It's one thing for non-financial people such as most of us here not to understand the complexities of these schemes but I'm far from sure the so-called financial experts understood. JP Morgan wanted a mechanism to transfer risk to third parties so its employee - Blythe Masters - invented the Credit Default Swap (CDS)*. Seemingly none of them realized SOME ENTITY will not have a chair when the music stops.

Did these very smart people believe EVERYONE could lay off their risk ??



Wart


*Credit Default Swaps were largely responsible for bringing down Bear Stearns, AIG, WaMu and other huge corporations. Did even these giants understand ??

We are all ultimately the bag-holders on this. Nobody gets out alive.

Those credit default swaps are worthless - backed by phony promises. When it's time to collect on them there will be a kaboom. And who holds this worthless paper?

Your 401k fund, your pension funds (hello unions?), your insurance comanies....everyone is screwed.

Warthogg
10-30-2011, 12:57 PM
This has all been planned. The goal is one global currency and one global economy being ruled by a global government.

I blame the commies in D.C., beginning at the very least with the Clintons. Obama is simply the end game.

We'll see what the future holds, but it don't look good for any of us.




I start with Teddy Roosevelt, Woodrow Wilson* - the first Progressive Presidents so far as I know - and F. D. Roosevelt. Then move to EVERY President since Eisenhower. Do I include Reagan ?? You better believe I do.


Wart


*Wilson signed into law the bill creating the Federal Reserve Bank.

Warthogg
10-30-2011, 01:02 PM
[QUOTE=sevlex;177900]We are all ultimately the bag-holders on this. Nobody gets out alive.

The Federal Reserve Bank was invented to make it a certainty the taxpayers bailed out the too-politically-connected-to-fail.

Wart

O.S.O.K.
10-30-2011, 01:31 PM
Teddy Roosevelt blocked the formation of the Fed - he was totally against it. Just fyi.

Warthogg
10-30-2011, 02:06 PM
Teddy Roosevelt blocked the formation of the Fed - he was totally against it. Just fyi.

The Teddy was resident president from 1901 - 1909. The formative meeting for the Fed didn't occur until 1910.



Wart

American Rage
10-30-2011, 02:42 PM
I agree with the fdr comment. I should have mentioned him.

Still, this all picked up pace under Bill "I sold out to China" Clinton

Can't help but notice that he always shows up to bolster 0 when needed

O.S.O.K.
10-30-2011, 02:52 PM
The Teddy was resident president from 1901 - 1909. The formative meeting for the Fed didn't occur until 1910.



Wart

Yes, but the point is that they tried to form the fed on his watch and he prevented it. He also faught for an won the fight for antitrust legislation and went after the monopolies.

Yes, he was a "progressive" but I think that was more in his thinking on eugenics and such = not so much the socialist side of things.

Anyway, this all has little to nothing to do with the OP.

Derivatives are such an exciting subject that the thread is quicky off topic every other reply :lool:

samiam
10-30-2011, 03:25 PM
this is all a result of deregulation . . financial services (banks, insurance, etc.) should be under such scrutiny that even the amount of paper they wipe their ass with should be controlled

Warthogg
10-30-2011, 07:03 PM
Yes, but the point is that they tried to form the fed on his watch and he prevented it. He also faught for an won the fight for antitrust legislation and went after the monopolies.

Yes, he was a "progressive" but I think that was more in his thinking on eugenics and such = not so much the socialist side of things.

Anyway, this all has little to nothing to do with the OP.

Derivatives are such an exciting subject that the thread is quicky off topic every other reply :lool:

I was thinking about my post walking the dogs. Realized there almost had to have been discussion prior to the 1910 meeting. I've not known exactly why the total secrecy of the meeting was required. Maybe because of Teddy and his compatriots.



Wart

Warthogg
10-30-2011, 07:05 PM
this is all a result of deregulation . . financial services (banks, insurance, etc.) should be under such scrutiny that even the amount of paper they wipe their ass with should be controlled

Bernie Maddof was highly regulated by the SEC.


Wart

O.S.O.K.
10-30-2011, 07:17 PM
I was thinking about my post walking the dogs. Realized there almost had to have been discussion prior to the 1910 meeting. I've not known exactly why the total secrecy of the meeting was required. Maybe because of Teddy and his compatriots.



Wart

Yeah. He knew what they were up to. Teddy was a very ethical type. He really and truely believed in honor and duty. Remember that he started life as an anemic kid with asthma - and he litterally worked his way out of that with exersize and the shear power of will. He faught the monopolies and the banks while he was in NY as assemblyman and later the Governor. When he lost his first wife with the birth fo their daugher and then his mother, he moved to the Dakota territory basically in search of himself and successully started a ranch there. He was then recruited by Hardin (IIRC) to be the Secty of the Navy - and then of course he enlisted and did the Rough Rider thing - then came back and became the VP - then the assasination of the current president and he's the POTUS - then he gets elected. But he most definately was anti-fed and blocked them. Which is why it was only after he was out of the picture that they were able to form the fed - thanks to Wilson, who really was a true Progressive in all senses.


But again - this is about the derivatives market bubble. And such... us being screwed basically.

I thought we had more time than it now looks like - the last bandaid that the EU came up with was supposed to last for a couple of years, but now I see it's more like months... and then, as brought up - Israel is likely to make a move (and who can blame them?) which very well could bring the whole thing tumbling down in short order.

I pray to God for it to please hold-off until next summer... at least. Just me being selfish...

Warthogg
10-30-2011, 07:26 PM
Just a quick grin about the Jekyll Island meeting.

There were six men present representing about 1/6th of the WORLD's wealth.

Paul Warburg represented Baron Alfred Rothschild's Kuhn, Loeb & Co.) was one the six. Warburg was the real life man who inspired the Little Orphan Annie character 'Daddy Warbucks'..


Wart

O.S.O.K.
10-30-2011, 08:05 PM
I didn't know that. Interesting.

stevelyn
10-31-2011, 12:37 PM
OK, I found the "definition" of what derivatives are. It's not hard to understand what they are but when you add all of the different kinds and the different "uses" for them, then it gets hard to understand.

My head hurts.


Mebbe this will help clear the fog a bit.



A Primer: Understanding Derivatives

Heidi is the proprietor of a bar in Detroit ...
She realizes that virtually all of her customers are unemployed alcoholics and, as such, can no longer afford to patronize her bar.
To solve this problem, she comes up with a new marketing plan that allows her customers to drink now, but pay later.
Heidi keeps track of the drinks consumed on a ledger (thereby granting the customers loans).
Word gets around about Heidi's "drink now, pay later" marketing strategy and, as a result,
increasing numbers of customers flood into Heidi's bar. Soon she has the largest sales volume for any bar in Detroit .
By providing her customers freedom from immediate payment demands, Heidi gets no resistance when, at regular intervals,

she substantially increases her prices for wine and beer, the most consumed beverages.
Consequently, Heidi's gross sales volume increases massively.
A young and dynamic vice-president at the local bank recognizes that these customer debts constitute valuable

future assets and increases Heidi's borrowing limit.
He sees no reason for any undue concern because he has the debts of the unemployed alcoholics as collateral!
At the bank's corporate headquarters, expert traders figure a way to make huge commissions,

and transform these customer loans into DRINKBONDS.
These "securities" then are bundled and traded on international securities markets.
Naive investors don't really understand that the securities being sold to them as "AAA Secured Bonds"

really are debts of unemployed alcoholics. Nevertheless, the bond prices continuously climb -

and the securities soon become the hottest-selling items for some of the nation's leading brokerage houses.
One day, even though the bond prices still are climbing, a risk manager at the original local bank decides that

the time has come to demand payment on the debts incurred by the drinkers at Heidi's bar. He so informs Heidi.
Heidi then demands payment from her alcoholic patrons. But, being unemployed alcoholics --

they cannot pay back their drinking debts.

Since Heidi cannot fulfill her loan obligations she is forced into bankruptcy.

The bar closes and Heidi's 11 employees lose their jobs. Overnight, DRINKBOND prices drop by 90%.
The collapsed bond asset value destroys the bank's liquidity and prevents it from issuing new loans,

thus freezing credit and economic activity in the community.
The suppliers of Heidi's bar had granted her generous payment extensions and had invested their firms' pension funds in the BOND securities.
They find they are now faced with having to write off her bad debt and with losing over 90% of the presumed value of the bonds.
Her wine supplier also claims bankruptcy, closing the doors on a family business that had endured for three generations,

her beer supplier is taken over by a competitor, who immediately closes the local plant and lays off 150 workers.
Fortunately though, the bank, the brokerage houses and their respective executives are saved and

bailed out by a multibillion dollar no-strings attached cash infusion from the government.
The funds required for this bailout are obtained by new taxes levied on employed,

middle-class, nondrinkers who have never been in Heidi's bar.

Now do you understand?

O.S.O.K.
10-31-2011, 02:22 PM
Well actually, I've been doing a little more reading up and yeah, I understand but that's a great analogy. Thank you. But of course, a lot of derivatives are actually based on good investments.

That does accurately describe what happened in 2008 with the housing bubble/loan derivatives though. And it highlights the fact that this "market" is not regulated...

So...... the real question of the day is: Is there a situation like the analogy above... happening right now?

If so, what is it? Which bubble is it based on?

Or are there multiple situaitons like the above?

printerman
10-31-2011, 03:28 PM
"They will throw their money in the streets"

GET YOUR CANNED GOODS NOW !!!

El Laton Caliente
10-31-2011, 03:45 PM
Well actually, I've been doing a little more reading up and yeah, I understand but that's a great analogy. Thank you. But of course, a lot of derivatives are actually based on good investments.

That does accurately describe what happened in 2008 with the housing bubble/loan derivatives though. And it highlights the fact that this "market" is not regulated...

So...... the real question of the day is: Is there a situation like the analogy above... happening right now?

If so, what is it? Which bubble is it based on?

Or are there multiple situations like the above?

After a very little Internet research the low estimate of derivatives is $600 trillion and the high is $1.4 Quadrillion or between about 10x to 23x the gross output of all of humanity. I'd say it is a great number of bubbles any one of which could go bust. I've seen single international banks with estimated exposures of $55 trillion to $79 trillion.

O.S.O.K.
10-31-2011, 03:49 PM
I just can't see anything good coming out of this. Nothing.

Warthogg
10-31-2011, 04:05 PM
After a very little Internet research the low estimate of derivatives is $600 trillion and the high is $1.4 Quadrillion or between about 10x to 23x the gross output of all of humanity. I'd say it is a great number of bubbles any one of which could go bust. I've seen single international banks with estimated exposures of $55 trillion to $79 trillion.

Just for grins let us say a kindly Vegas hooker with a chest of gold (pun intended) bailed out every bank and every country at exactly midnight tonight. At one second after midnight everyone bailed out would be back in debt because none of the underlying problems would have been addressed.

Nothing of substance has been done. Nothing of substance will be done.


Wart

Warthogg
10-31-2011, 04:07 PM
I just can't see anything good coming out of this. Nothing.

Nothing...yup.


Wart