Brand new with some questions

[tarheelpwr]

Hi,

First off, hello! First time posting, so please be easy :) I prefer to build one if possible so it will have more meaning to me. I also just enjoy those sort of projects. I'm hoping I can do it in pieces as well. I'm building a house, so I'd like to avoid a $600 hit at once if possible (that may be way underestimated I know).

I'd like to "build" an AK style 12 gauge shotgun. I've never done anything like this, so I have no idea where to start. I know how I want it to look, but that's about it. I know my way around tools pretty well and everything like that, but I've never applied it to guns.

First off, please let me know if this is over my head (either option). My ideal version would look like this:
http://www.redjacketfirearms.com/index.php?page=shop.product_details&flypage=flypage.tpl&product_id=28&category_id=2&option=com_virtuemart&Itemid=3

with a "tactical style" stock like this:
http://www.downloadmunkey.net/images9/sks-02.jpg

I realize that is combining things from AK's and at least an MP5 .. could be more.

So, to begin, how do I go about building that? What parts do I need? Tools? Is there any way to estimate the cost. Can I get a kit and go from there? I'm hoping the kit option is available since I know I can't go in and make lots of custom mods to the parts myself.

If that's out of the question for me, how about making one like this (Polish AK), but with composite rather than wood:
http://sgcusa.com/media/catalog/product/cache/1/image/9df78eab33525d08d6e5fb8d27136e95/c/e/century_arms_polish_ak47_milled_a.jpg

I'd also like the same stock as above on it:
http://www.downloadmunkey.net/images9/sks-02.jpg

Would this kit work for the Polish version:
http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=259777918

Is it even possible to even convert a normal AK to a shotgun, or is it too much work? Am I completely in left field? When I read about conversions, are people strictly talking about making it a true pistol grip, or are they converting more than just the grip?

Would I be better off to start with a Saiga kit or shotgun and make mods to it? Do they even sell Saiga kits?

If I go with buying a Saiga and changing it, what is the actual difference between adding a stock kit that makes a factory Saiga into a pistol grip and ACTUALLY converting the Saiga into a pistol grip? I know literally what it does, so my question is more along the lines of function, "authenticity", etc ... Seems like there's a pretty drastic cost difference.

I'm not sure if either/or are feasible. Is one project more costly/skill required than the other (I'm assuming combining multiple guns will be tougher/more costly). Is it OK to buy "poor"ish" condition part kits that have rust etc on them? I would love to save the money and restore them myself as that would add to the project's value in seeing more of a transformation, but I do not want to sacrifice safety for money. So, is that a safe route to go, or should I avoid that thought process?



That is a short term project (I think). I would also like to work on a long-term one. I've always loved the Dragunov style AK's. I prefer the PSL-54C style.

If I go composite, this one is my goal:
http://www.dragunov.net/owners/ohiogunnut_psl_med.jpg

Wood I like:
https://www.aimsurplus.com/EOS/images/product/psl2.jpg

Again, I'd love to be able to piece this together over time. Buy a part here, one there. Are there any places where I can get a "master list" of everything necessary? Are the kits any good for them? I saw some linked below. What kind of receiver should I put on it? Would that kit and a receiver be everything? I would LOVE to put nice Birch or Walnut wood on it to change it up. Can you get unstained wood for them?

How much work/skill would be involved with this kit:
http://centerfiresystems.com/drakit-mm.aspx


So again for this project, is it feasible? Can I estimate costs? Is one style more difficult/pricey than the other? Is my only option to buy one already done and change out the parts I want to change out?


Please let me know if I'm missing any info necessary for helping me. Thanks in advance for reading and any input I get!

Chris

P.S. sorry for soooo many questions. I hope my thoughts were clear enough to sift through.

[El Laton Caliente]

Welcome to the board!

Every thing you talk about is possible and has been done. Your only objects are cost and money. LOL

The AK shotgun; you should convert a Saiga. Any other path I think is going to be painful to the wallet.

[O.S.O.K.]

:welcome: to the board. I second the motion to convert a Saiga. But know that they run around $500 stock... http://www.classicarms.us is a good source for them.

[Schuetzenman]

Welcome to the board!

Every thing you talk about is possible and has been done. Your only objects are cost and money. LOL

The AK shotgun; you should convert a Saiga. Any other path I think is going to be painful to the wallet.

That will be painful enough as is. The shorty like that is NFA and it carries a $200 buck tax stamp with permission to build it on a form 1 from BATFE. Frankly you'd be better off just going through a class III dealer and buy the thing as built from Red Jacket. For a conventional 16" barreled AK there are Kits and they don't require NFA taxes to be paid. But frankly unless you're planning on building about 4 or 5 of them the top level building tools will cost you so much you would be better off just buying an as built AK. I've built AK weapons back when the kits were $115 each and had original barrels. In those days it was cheap to build one, about $275 to $300 in each one I built. But now that kits are $300 plus I sold all my stuff and if I want an AK i'm just going to buy it.

Welcome to the web site.

[tarheelpwr]

Thanks for the input!

That leads me to another question. Is this then a viable option?

http://centerfiresystems.com/SAI-12GR100.aspx

Can I take something like that and have a gunsmith cut it down to 16" and make the mods I can't handle without getting into all of the tax/legal issues? I can swap out stocks and things of that sort on my own, but I'm talking like cutting the barrel, putting on the flash suppressor, and other things of that sort.

Thanks for the input and keep it coming!
Chris

Edit 1 What is NFA? I'm sure it's something legal related : )

[FunkyPertwee]

They sell one that comes with a 19" barrel. The legal limit before you get into NFA stuff is 18" for a shotgun, 16" for a rifle.

It would be very easy for you to purchase the 19" inch version of the same gun you most recently linked to, and do the pistol grip conversion yourself.

[tarheelpwr]

That will be painful enough as is. The shorty like that is NFA and it carries a $200 buck tax stamp with permission to build it on a form 1 from BATFE. Frankly you'd be better off just going through a class III dealer and buy the thing as built from Red Jacket. For a conventional 16" barreled AK there are Kits and they don't require NFA taxes to be paid. But frankly unless you're planning on building about 4 or 5 of them the top level building tools will cost you so much you would be better off just buying an as built AK. I've built AK weapons back when the kits were $115 each and had original barrels. In those days it was cheap to build one, about $275 to $300 in each one I built. But now that kits are $300 plus I sold all my stuff and if I want an AK i'm just going to buy it.

Welcome to the web site.


Schu - What kind of equipment would it take? Is there a post somewhere that has basically what a "start-up" shop would take? I assume most tool would work for any type of gun project. Is that safe to say, or do you need specific things for an AK project vs an AR project, etc. I'm only 26, so I could put one together over time. The only thing that would make me hesitant on that is all the regulations they put out .....

[tarheelpwr]

They sell one that comes with a 19" barrel. The legal limit before you get into NFA stuff is 18" for a shotgun, 16" for a rifle.

It would be very easy for you to purchase the 19" inch version of the same gun you most recently linked to, and do the pistol grip conversion yourself.


Yeah, I saw the 19" as well. BUT if I'm looking to cut the barrel down either way, I was looking to save the $30ish of the longer barrel since it's going to be cut. But yes, good idea. If I do the conversion myself and keep the barrel, much better idea to just buy the 19".

[El Laton Caliente]

Try here for a Saiga: http://classicarms.us/

A normal shop set up for AK building would have:
drill press (table top will do)
12 or 20 ton bearing press (harbor freight has 'em cheap)
dremil tool with lots of tips
BFH Big F'n Hammer 2lbs
punches & chissels
File set
Jeweler's files
Screw driver set (gunsmith)
Various plyers
Vise


Otional for serious to VERY SERIOUS builders:
Metal Layth
Milling Machine
or 3 in one combo machine
Blast cabnet
parts washer
Bench grinder
Gas or Electric smoker or old stove for baked on finishes
Blueing tank set up
Parkerizing tank set up


Specialties:
Barrel removal/installation jig
Rivet jigs
flat bending jig (if not using 100% receivers)

I bought jigs from: http://ak-builder.com/ He is great to deal with and watch the videos on his site, good instruction.

There are other methods of building like screw builds that can reduce the tooling needed. There are barrel removal methods that use clamps or a vise instead of the bearing press.

[tarheelpwr]

If I end up with the NFA type shorty, is that tax a $200 "sales" tax type of deal, or is that a yearly tax I'll have to maintain?

[FunkyPertwee]

If I end up with the NFA type shorty, is that tax a $200 "sales" tax type of deal, or is that a yearly tax I'll have to maintain?

You pay it one time for life. If you ever sell the gun, the buyer will have to pay the tax again.

Besides just paying the tax, you'll have to wait months before you get permission to take possession of or manufacture a short barreled shotgun.

Here is a video on it:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z6ONqI3_QOI

[Schuetzenman]

Schu - What kind of equipment would it take? Is there a post somewhere that has basically what a "start-up" shop would take? I assume most tool would work for any type of gun project. Is that safe to say, or do you need specific things for an AK project vs an AR project, etc. I'm only 26, so I could put one together over time. The only thing that would make me hesitant on that is all the regulations they put out .....
To do AK kit building you need the ability to press out the barrel retention pin from the trunion. Then you need the ability to push the barrel out of the trunion. That's for a kit with an origianl barrel. With the way kits are now you will have a new US barrel that will need the rear sight aligned and pinned, gas block aligned and pinned and the front sight base aligned and pinned. You will need to set the barrel for proper headspace. This all comes down to a bottle jack press, 20 tons is best but a 12 tonner will do it. I used a 12, the frame was a bit flexible but it got by. You will need fixtures to hold the receiver and trunion together so you can rivet them together. You will a means to hold the receiver with installed trunion to press the barrel in and set headspace. You will nead a set of head space gauges. You will need a Rivet Jig to do the transmission of power from the press to the rivets. You will need bucking plates that are dished out to hold the domed rivet head so it doesn't get squashed flat as you press the rivet shank to flare it and lock the rivet in.

Here is a linke to a web site that makes such equipment and has how to vids on it. http://ak-builder.com/ they have probably everything you'd need. Trust me you will have a $1,000 buck first AK in todays market if you buy the tools and build the weapon. That's why I said if you invest you best have plans to build a lot of them to get your money back for the tooling. Otherwise, you want 1, 2 or even 3, just save your pennys and go buy them built and ready to go.

[Schuetzenman]

Yeah, I saw the 19" as well. BUT if I'm looking to cut the barrel down either way, I was looking to save the $30ish of the longer barrel since it's going to be cut. But yes, good idea. If I do the conversion myself and keep the barrel, much better idea to just buy the 19".

One more time, any shot gun barrel under 18" is NFA and requires prior tax stamped permission in your hand signed sealed and delivered before you cut. Otherwise you're a felon subject to $250,000 in fines and up to 10 years in Fed Pen.

[tarheelpwr]

One more time, any shot gun barrel under 18" is NFA and requires prior tax stamped permission in your hand signed sealed and delivered before you cut. Otherwise you're a felon subject to $250,000 in fines and up to 10 years in Fed Pen.

10-4 I'm not looking to break the law, just work with-in it. I misunderstood your first comment about having conventional 16" AK kits. I took that to mean you can retro-fit a shotgun like that and avoid the NFA. You were just talking about bulding a normal AK. Thanks for the additional input, esp on the set-up required.