Mississippi defeats "personhood" initiative!

[LAGC]

JACKSON, Miss. (AP) — Mississippi voters Tuesday defeated a ballot initiative that would have declared life begins at fertilization, a proposal that supporters sought in the Bible Belt state as a way to prompt a legal challenge to abortion rights nationwide.

The so-called "personhood" initiative was rejected by more than 55 percent of voters, falling far short of the threshold needed for it to be enacted. If it had passed, it was virtually assured of drawing legal challenges because it conflicts with the Supreme Court's 1973 Roe v. Wade decision that established a legal right to abortion. Supporters of the initiative wanted to provoke a lawsuit to challenge the landmark ruling.

The measure divided the medical and religious communities and caused some of the most ardent abortion opponents, including Republican Gov. Haley Barbour, to waver with their support.

Opponents said the measure would have made birth control, such as the morning-after pill or the intrauterine device, illegal. More specifically, the ballot measure called for abortion to be prohibited "from the moment of fertilization" — wording that opponents suggested would have deterred physicians from performing in vitro fertilization because they would fear criminal charges if an embryo doesn't survive.
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http://news.yahoo.com/miss-defeats-life-fertilization-ballot-prop-041831234.html

WOW, there may be hope for the Deep South yet! The Bible Thumpers are losing their grip down there. This bill would have passed overwhelmingly just 20 years ago. Looks like even the Deep South is becoming more liberal with time... either that, or a good number of fiscal conservatives just don't want to see taxpayer dollars wasted on a futile lawsuit attempt.

What a great victory for women's rights!

[old Grump]

Fat lady hasn't sung yet. All you liberals with your love for abortion will lose the numbers race because children are an inconvenience to your life style. Sanity will eventually take over, or the Hispanics will since they have the highest birth rate.

[mriddick]

I would not be so quick to say this would of passed easily 20 years ago. I think this is just a continued finalization of the drawing of the lines in the abortion debate which is good, make it tough to get but still legal under strict guidelines.

[Ronwicp]

This had less to do with being anti abortion or pro choice than it had to do with being too vague and not well thought out. Its kinda reminded me of ole Nancy "we have to pass the bill before we know whats in it" thing.

It did not say it will ban abortion. thats what the anti abortion side said. Likewise it did not ban birthcontrol pills or anything like that like the pro choice side said.

It says
Be it Enacted by the People of the State of Mississippi: SECTION 1. Article III of the constitution of the state of Mississippi is hereby amended BY THE ADDITION OF A NEW SECTION TO READ: Section 33. Person defined. As used in this Article III of the state constitution, "The term 'person' or 'persons' shall include every human being from the moment of fertilization, cloning or the functional equivalent thereof." This initiative shall not require any additional revenue for implementation.

Thats all it says, no ban on anything till it ran through the courts a million times.


Well what the hell does that mean? If you get pregnant in mexico is your kid dual citizen? Can you claim them on your tax form? What are the unintended things that can come from this bill?

And that is why it didnt pass.

[nfa1934]

From what I read, the biggest issue was unintended repercussions for fertility clinics regarding unused embryos in procedures for people trying to have children. Under the proposed law, in a case where a number of eggs were fertilized in vitro to be implanted in the hope of resulting in pregnancy, any that were not used would still be legally a person. What if a pregnancy resulted on the first try? Would the clinic be required to maintain these additional frozen "persons" indefinitely? Would there be a legal requirement to implant them in someone? Would someone be charged with murder for disposing of them? Very poorly thought out law.

[slamfire51]

I'm glad the Bill was defeated. No so much for the abortion aspect, but for the defeat of taking away the choice of preventing unwanted pregnancies. (the choice to use birth control)

With the world population as it is, unwanted pregnancies only contribute to the strained resources of the world, and in many cases, a strain on the taxpayers money in the form of welfare.

[Warthogg]

This had less to do with being anti abortion or pro choice than it had to do with being too vague and not well thought out. Its kinda reminded me of ole Nancy "we have to pass the bill before we know whats in it" thing.

It did not say it will ban abortion. thats what the anti abortion side said. Likewise it did not ban birthcontrol pills or anything like that like the pro choice side said.

It says
Be it Enacted by the People of the State of Mississippi: SECTION 1. Article III of the constitution of the state of Mississippi is hereby amended BY THE ADDITION OF A NEW SECTION TO READ: Section 33. Person defined. As used in this Article III of the state constitution, "The term 'person' or 'persons' shall include every human being from the moment of fertilization, cloning or the functional equivalent thereof." This initiative shall not require any additional revenue for implementation.

Thats all it says, no ban on anything till it ran through the courts a million times.


Well what the hell does that mean? If you get pregnant in mexico is your kid dual citizen? Can you claim them on your tax form? What are the unintended things that can come from this bill?

And that is why it didnt pass.

Heard a lotta guys were afraid they would be arrested if they whacked off.........charged with spermicide. Then the enevitable suit from the womenz claiming gender discrimination because they were not being arrested......... . Woulda been a mess.
:coffee:



Wart

[jojo]

$5,000 fine and prison time for screwing with an eagle egg......................... Nothing for killing a baby up to the trimester .............................. Yep, We're civilized alright......................

[Krupski]

I'm glad the Bill was defeated. No so much for the abortion aspect, but for the defeat of taking away the choice of preventing unwanted pregnancies. (the choice to use birth control)

With the world population as it is, unwanted pregnancies only contribute to the strained resources of the world, and in many cases, a strain on the taxpayers money in the form of welfare.


In my personal opinion:

(1) "Life" begins at the moment of fertilization.

(2) Abortion is murder if it's done for "convenience" (i.e. birth control).

(3) Abortion is justified if it's done to save the woman's life or to end a rape pregnancy.

(4) No local, state or federal government has any right to decree that abortions be illegal or legal because........

(5) .....if they are illegal, they will be done anyway... but by back alley witch doctors instead of a real M.D. in a hospital.

(6) Ultimately GOD will decide if any particular abortion was necessary, morally justified and "legal" in GOD'S eyes.

[Cypher]

$5,000 fine and prison time for screwing with an eagle egg......................... Nothing for killing a baby up to the trimester .............................. Yep, We're civilized alright......................

Sad isn't it. The funny thing is liberals have convinced themselves they are the humanitarians when reality is the opposite.

[Ronwicp]

If they introduced a bill that said abortion is illegal in MS except for mothers life, rape etc it would probably pass by 70%. But this one had too many unanswered questions.

I know several folks that voted no even though they are very anti abortion.

[Gun Toting Lefty]

In my personal opinion:

(1) "Life" begins at the moment of fertilization.

(2) Abortion is murder if it's done for "convenience" (i.e. birth control).

(3) Abortion is justified if it's done to save the woman's life or to end a rape pregnancy.

(4) No local, state or federal government has any right to decree that abortions be illegal or legal because........

(5) .....if they are illegal, they will be done anyway... but by back alley witch doctors instead of a real M.D. in a hospital.

(6) Ultimately GOD will decide if any particular abortion was necessary, morally justified and "legal" in GOD'S eyes.

well, in my opinion:

1, 'life' begins once there is evidence of some kind of consciousness. since there is no brain activity untill roughly 2 months into the pregnancy there can be no consciousness and thus nothing to kill.

2, abortions prevent unwanted children, reduceing the crime rate and level of poverty, and therefor poor people should allowed a small number of abortions for free.

3, unless there is a "good chance" that the fetus will survive outside the mothers body without "significant" medical itervention, the abortion should be allowed to go ahead.

4, obviously people who arn't poor will have to pay for their abortions.

5, people cannot be forced to have abortions.

[Kadmos]

Section 33. Person defined. As used in this Article III of the state constitution, "The term 'person' or 'persons' shall include every human being from the moment of fertilization, cloning or the functional equivalent thereof."

I think this likely killed it more than any abortion aspect. Any bill that sounds pro "cloning" is destined to die. A large portion of the population views the word cloning roughly as it views the word cannibalism.

[Krupski]

well, in my opinion:

1, 'life' begins once there is evidence of some kind of consciousness. since there is no brain activity untill roughly 2 months into the pregnancy there can be no consciousness and thus nothing to kill.

2, abortions prevent unwanted children, reduceing the crime rate and level of poverty, and therefor poor people should allowed a small number of abortions for free.

3, unless there is a "good chance" that the fetus will survive outside the mothers body without "significant" medical itervention, the abortion should be allowed to go ahead.

4, obviously people who arn't poor will have to pay for their abortions.

5, people cannot be forced to have abortions.

My replies:

(1) How do you define "life"? You seem to define it as beginning when "brain activity" begins. So, what kind of brain activity? Autonomic functions (respiration, heart, etc...)? Awareness of surroundings - reactions to light, dark and sounds? Ability to read a large book?

What about other life forms that have minimal brain activity or none (like plants)? Are they not alive?

(2) To even be able to use the word "unwanted" in the context of children implies to me that you have no kids and have no clue what a miraculous joy they are.

If a child is conceived unintentionally and the mother (or mother/father) are not ABLE to care for the child, there are families all over the Country that would give anything to have that child as their own.

And as far as a "small number of free abortions"... what do you mean by "free"? You get nothing for nothing. There is no such thing as "free". Either taxpayers will pay for it or else the doctor, out of the goodness of his heart, will perform the procedure and not charge for it (i.e. the doctor's family pays for it in the form of less income).

(3) Um... huh? The fetus should remain inside the mother's body until the mother's body decides to birth the child. Whether or not that is done at the right time is determined by nature.

(4) Everyone pays. It's just a matter of whether a person pays for it themselves or if someone else pays for them.

(5) Look up "Buck vs. Bell 1927 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buck_v._Bell)". If states can force sterilization, why not also abortion? I'm not agreeing with it... I'm saying that when it comes to dealing with the government, they CAN force you to do any damn thing they want and you have two choices: (1) Die fighting them or (2) Submit.

In my opinion, people should be left alone by the government. That means no forced abortions AND no legal denial for abortions.

[mriddick]

An abortion is a medical procedure, to say the state has no legal ability to regulate medical procedures within their borders trashes the 10th (and the Constitution in the process).

[Krupski]

An abortion is a medical procedure, to say the state has no legal ability to regulate medical procedures within their borders trashes the 10th (and the Constitution in the process).

I can accept "the state" regulating medical procedures on the basis of their safety and effectiveness (for a crazy example... banning a doctor from implanting magnets to "draw out" illness or other "quacky" things) but to make a sometimes necessary and certainly medically safe procedure (i.e. abortion) ILLEGAL is (IMHO) overstepping their bounds.

I don't like the idea of abortion, but I completely despise the idea of any "state" (meaning any government) trying to tell a woman that they can't have the procedure done... simply because they will have it done anyway so the net result is that the state has made the woman's life more dangerous.

Of course, that goes for any government interference in the private affairs of citizens.... they need to butt out. What a person does is nobody else's business as long as it doesn't hurt anyone else.

[mriddick]

I would bet most who are against abortion are so because they view it as harming someone.

[Oswald Bastable]

1, 'life' begins once there is evidence of some kind of consciousness. since there is no brain activity untill roughly 2 months into the pregnancy there can be no consciousness and thus nothing to kill.

Given the number of legal abortions performed in the world over the last 50+ years, 3rd month, 2nd trimester, 3rd trimester, partial-birth abortions...that's a whole lot of murder that's gone unprosecuted.

[Ronwicp]

well, in my opinion:

1, 'life' begins once there is evidence of some kind of consciousness.

So, most liberals are fair game?

[Ronwicp]

I can accept "the state" regulating medical procedures on the basis of their safety and effectiveness (for a crazy example... banning a doctor from implanting magnets to "draw out" illness or other "quacky" things)


If I want to pay some guy my money to put leaches all over me is it any of the governments business? I agree with the butt out thing, but I say butt all the way out.

[Ronwicp]

I think this likely killed it more than any abortion aspect. Any bill that sounds pro "cloning" is destined to die. A large portion of the population views the word cloning roughly as it views the word cannibalism.

I think that had less to do with it than you think. Its is the unanswered and unknown that killed this one. I mean my knowledge of why folks voted no is anecdotal, but I bet closer to the truth than that.

Was it going to ban birth control? If momma was in danger of dieing what then. Murder the person or let mom die? I mean its so vague that no one knew where it could go.

The pro 26 guys will say no it doesnt mean any of that, but they didnt know. I mean it didnt say it would ban abortion either. All it says is that its a person at fertilization.

[Warthogg]

I think that had less to do with it than you think. Its is the unanswered and unknown that killed this one. I mean my knowledge of why folks voted no is anecdotal, but I bet closer to the truth than that.

Was it going to ban birth control? If momma was in danger of dieing what then. Murder the person or let mom die? I mean its so vague that no one knew where it could go.

The pro 26 guys will say no it doesnt mean any of that, but they didnt know. I mean it didnt say it would ban abortion either. All it says is that its a person at fertilization.

Would have made several hundred attorneys richer.


Wart

[Helen Keller]

With the world population as it is, unwanted pregnancies only contribute to the strained resources of the world, and in many cases, a strain on the taxpayers money in the form of welfare.


like many members here.....

[Ronwicp]

Would have made several hundred attorneys richer.


Wart


Oh absolutely, if that would have passed it would have been in court for years.

[bum_whisperer]

The government has no business meddling in individual's affairs. If the woman chooses to not have the abortion she's conservative. Let all of the liberal socialists abort their future liberal socialist progeny. Maybe a retroactive abortion law needs put on the books for the grown up liberal socialists that are a burden on society.

[Krupski]

So, most liberals are fair game?:yeah:

[Krupski]

If I want to pay some guy my money to put leaches all over me is it any of the governments business? I agree with the butt out thing, but I say butt all the way out.

Even though what you said partially contradicts what I said... I agree with you 100% completely. Hell, if I want magnets implanted to pull out evil spirits, that's MY decision! :)

[Warthogg]

I want magnets implanted to pull out evil spirits.........

You just don't see that much any more. :big-eye-eek::toke:


Wart

[Krupski]

You just don't see that much any more. :big-eye-eek::toke:


Wart

No... you don't understand. It's COPPER magnets! They suck out all the evil spirits. Really. True.

[Warthogg]

No... you don't understand. It's COPPER magnets! They suck out all the evil spirits. Really. True.

Never doubted the efficacy even for a second !!



Wart

[Charliebravo]

I wish LAGC had been aborted. It would've saved the taxpayers of Idaho hundreds of thousands of dollars.