Best Bang for the Buck (tactical shotgun)

[tarheelpwr]

So I started out set on getting a Saiga 12 and making mods to it, but after pricing things out, I'm not sure I can swing $1400 ish right now with a house under construction ... I also doubt I'd find a deal on one locally at a show. I also want to mess around and do some mods myself. I'm very new at that, so it's a little safer to start out with a $300ish shotgun than tweaking the AK style job starting at $600.

So,
What are some of your all's best bang for the buck options for a self defense shotgun. I'm open to any functional size (12ga, 20ga, .410, etc). I'd like to be right around 18" to avoid the NFA junk. I prefer semi auto, but that won't be a deal breaker.

I'd like everything taken into consideration: versatility, aftermarket option, reliability, etc. A sweet looking gun is a major plus.

Thanks in advance!
Chris

[O.S.O.K.]

Just get the stock Saiga and do the mods as you can. It's very easy to do the pistol grip mod and not much $$...

Classic arms has em for $600 http://www.classicarms.us/Saiga.htm
http://www.classicarms.us/images/SAIGA12-COMBO.jpg

[Mark Ducati]

Hey, FWIW... I bought all of my Saiga 12 mods from:

http://www.mississippiautoarms.com/saiga-12-c-366.html?zenid=8d4d561b04ca579ae27b30fb85ac3ed0

I agree with OSOK, get the S12 now... you never know when the US will stop allowing importation of them... mod as your budget allows.

[Mark Ducati]

How about this? For $119 bucks... this is probably one of the easiest grip/stock mods you can do:

http://www.mississippiautoarms.com/saiga-external-magpul-moe-collapsible-stock-kit-saw-grip-tan-p-1940.html
http://www.mississippiautoarms.com/images/SaigaMagpulStockKitP.jpg

Sure, I bet that we'd all like an ACE Skeleton Stock, SAW grip relocated with a new Tromix Trigger guard... but for $119 bucks, I think this is pretty darn slick and might fit a budget oriented design?

[O.S.O.K.]

I can do the pistol grip configuration for about the same $$ maybe a bit more but you end up with a "proper" AK configured shotty.

[FunkyPertwee]

Here you go. Mossberg 590 for $408 with free shipping and no credit card fee. My FFL only charges $20 for transfers.

http://www.jetguns.com/mossberg-590sp-12ga-20-9sh-cb-hs-prk-p-2351.html?cPath=495_517
http://www.jetguns.com/images/large/D5_4/46285_LRG.jpg

[Partisan1983]

I love my Beneilli M3.

[tarheelpwr]

Thanks for the input so far. An update to where I'm headed. I know you get what you pay for, but more isn't always better. I'm hoping to lean on your all's experience to get quality upgrades and decent prices. I realize you normally get what you pay for, so I don't want the "cheapen" my choice, I just want to get the best value on quality stuff.

That's def a decent option. With the Saiga back in the picture, what are the disadvantages of the other sizes? (20 ga/.410)? You can get into those guns for about half the price up front, so what are you really giving up when you go down to the the smaller shotguns? Versatility, options to upgrade, increase possible cost of shells, etc?

I've never really fooled much with anything other than a 12ga, so I don't know if quality loads even exist for the smaller ones. Can you do all the optional things to both other sizes?

Has anyone seen the 22" or 24" Saigas for sale lately? It's on backorder from centerfire, but I'm going to cut it down to 18.5" eventually, so I'd rather save the money since they seem to be cheaper.

As to conversions. My local gunsmith said he would recommend not doing the full conversion as it ends up being "mickey mouse". He said he's had to convert converts back to factory. Is there truth to that, or did he likely get people who did poor jobs on their own and get back examples of full conversions? Can a few of you weigh in the pros and cons of each way (full conversion and quasi-conversion with pistol grip for factory saiga)

Stocks: I've seen this as appealing (phoenix kicklite):
http://www.amazon.com/Phoenix-Kicklite-Tactical-Shotgun-Reduction/dp/B0058DD04W/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1321211700&sr=8-1

Any input on that?

Optics:
http://www.amazon.com/Tactical-Reticle-Reflex-Sight-Weaver-Picatinny/dp/B003NFI092/ref=acc_glance_sg_ai_ps_t_5

UAG open optic. Is UAG decent decent option, or is the fraction of the price a good indicator of the quality of the products?

I'll check in later when I think of more stuff!
Chris

[O.S.O.K.]

12 Gage offers the most availabe loadings and is easy to find discounted/on sale. The other gages are actually more costly. The 12 just gives you more.

As to the conversions - I think your gunsmith is blowing smoke up your skirt.

If he's saying that a pistol grip conversion is hard or doesn't often work out well - I call BS on that. He want's you to give him the business is all IMHO.

Here's a good vid on how to do a Saiga conversion:


http://vimeo.com/2787027

Judge for yourself. (keep in mind that this is a "girl" doing this work :lool: ) Point being, it's not hard - just need a few basic tools as shown.

I have done 4 of these and it took less than an hour the last time.

As far as the optics - the NC Star is the el cheapo option - don't expect any durability with that. This is a shotgun... you don't really need an optic IMHO - you are aiming of course, but not with a "fine bead". When I shot the 12 gage Saiga with stock sights, it was very easy to place slugs precisely at 25 yards.

[tarheelpwr]

That does look simple. Forgive my ignorance, but what is the BHO she references at the end?





If he's saying that a pistol grip conversion is hard or doesn't often work out well - I call BS on that. He want's you to give him the business is all IMHO.


I thought the same thing, but I was even talking about having HIM do the PG conversion and he recommended the PG/stock combo with the factory set up :poundon:

[O.S.O.K.]

Well, all's I know is that there are gunsmiths... and there are gunsmiths.

Besides improving the ergonomics, the pg conversion also gives you a 100% improvement in the trigger pull.

And the BHO = bolt hold open. This is a unique feature found only on the Saiga AFAIK.

There's a trick involving using string or tooth floss to compress the spring when re-installing the BHO.

The BHO is handy feature and I always reinstalled them on my conversions - some just leave them off however.

[tarheelpwr]

Well, all's I know is that there are gunsmiths... and there are gunsmiths.

Besides improving the ergonomics, the pg conversion also gives you a 100% improvement in the trigger pull.

And the BHO = bolt hold open. This is a unique feature found only on the Saiga AFAIK.

There's a trick involving using string or tooth floss to compress the spring when re-installing the BHO.

The BHO is handy feature and I always reinstalled them on my conversions - some just leave them off however.

Thanks for the info. I'll def look up how to put the BHO back on. I love that feature.

[FunkyPertwee]

Thanks for the info. I'll def look up how to put the BHO back on. I love that feature.

It doesn't hold open after the last round, it has to be activated manually.

[FMJ50]

So I started out set on getting a Saiga 12 and making mods to it, but after pricing things out, I'm not sure I can swing $1400 ish right now with a house under construction ... I also doubt I'd find a deal on one locally at a show. I also want to mess around and do some mods myself. I'm very new at that, so it's a little safer to start out with a $300ish shotgun than tweaking the AK style job starting at $600.

So,
What are some of your all's best bang for the buck options for a self defense shotgun. I'm open to any functional size (12ga, 20ga, .410, etc). I'd like to be right around 18" to avoid the NFA junk. I prefer semi auto, but that won't be a deal breaker.

I'd like everything taken into consideration: versatility, aftermarket option, reliability, etc. A sweet looking gun is a major plus.

Thanks in advance!
Chris

Chris,
I have a sweet $1800.00 Vang Comp custom; but if you want somthing cheep and that you can build on, you can't beat the Remington 870. It's the AR of the scatrergun world and it's a classic, you can pick them up anywhere. Unless you want to beat the Zombie with it, I would recommend using "Flight Control" rounds. Zombies deserve only the best.
Good luck

[American Rage]

my local walmart has remington 870 home defense guns for $270 plus tax, add on a tube extension for maybe $40-50 plus shipping. I think that's about as low buck, high quality, and dependable as it gets in my eyes.

[Alpha_Omega33]

another vote for the 870..... buy one cheap and build into whatever you want/need.....here's a good 870 info website.

http://www.aiptactical.com/Breaking_In_the_870.html

[451 Detonics]

The Berreta 1201FP can often be found used at a bargain price and it is basically a Benelli in disguise...great value for the dollar. I am very fond of the 1100 and use one for all manner of shotgun shooting competitions.

[deth502]

another vote for the 870.

although if you want to get off really cheap, a mossberg maveric. afaik, anything made to fit the 500 series will fit a maveric, so customization options are endless,and teh initial price is much lower. plus you dont have to deal with that pita, pos, top-of-the-receiver 500 safety.

[Richard Simmons]

If you look around you can often find a Beretta 1201FP at a good price. Mine is probably the fastest cycling shotgun I've seen/used. For a pump the 870 is still king as far as I'm concerned at least with regards to reliability and value.

[Eric]

Well its not exactly "tactical" but money is tight so im buying a Mossberg 500A in the next few days, just a little over 200 bucks it seems to be a good buy and can be modified when I can afford to do so.

[451 Detonics]

Even if money is tight I think you would be better off saving up if you prefer a semi-auto...you will never be satisfied with a pump if you have your heart set on one. Remington 1100 can be found used in the 300-350 buck range for good guns if you are willing to look and wait. This one started out as a plain jane 1100 and is now my go to gun for competition...

26 inch barrel, 10+1 mag extension, SpeedFeed stock holds four rounds...

http://i188.photobucket.com/albums/z271/reloader1959/shotguns/1100-1-1.jpg

[WB!]

Back in the late 1990's I bought a Mossberg Maverick 88 with pistol grip and 18 1/2" barrel for $152. I added a Choate pistol grip/full stock (the 2nd version, similar to what Mossberg is using on their special models) for $45. It's a lot of bang for the buck. Now I need a 28" barrel with choke tubes.

[tarheelpwr]

Thanks for all the input. Other obligations got in the of this project. I'm just getting back into this.

It seems like you can't go wrong with the 870, 590a1, Beretta, or S12. I think it will come down to what I can find locally.

[tarheelpwr]

I'm not going crazy on add-ons, but a light is something I'm really leaning towards. If I got with the Beretta 1201FP, I can't get a surefire made for it. I don't like the idea of a Benelli version retro fit.

So, if I go with the 1201FP, but is a good light attachment I can add to it as I'm assuming a rail would not be a problem to add.

[ready]

A word of caution on the beretta. I had one and sold it because it wasn't reliable with low recoil tactical rounds. Never tried hunting loads but I suspect it would be the same story.

I've owned and trained with a lot of shotguns in a lot of configurations and I would choose a mossberg 500 series or remmy 870 in 18.5" with standard stock any day of the week. I even went back to plain old bead sights.

[TEN-32]

I have an FN SLP. Magnificent. Mossberg 500 is THE best bang for the buck though. 590 if you want to be tactical.

[tarheelpwr]

A word of caution on the beretta. I had one and sold it because it wasn't reliable with low recoil tactical rounds. Never tried hunting loads but I suspect it would be the same story.

I've owned and trained with a lot of shotguns in a lot of configurations and I would choose a mossberg 500 series or remmy 870 in 18.5" with standard stock any day of the week. I even went back to plain old bead sights.

I started asking around on the Beretta, and I've heard that from a few people now - even going back to people's military days. I think that's enough to steer me away.

I'm getting scared of a ban on Saiga style boomsticks. I really may just get a bare bones model and pick up parts over time (as quickly as possible) before a ban hits. I can always make the mods whenever? Is that correct? I can still make the mods after a potential ban as long as I've PURCHASED all the parts pre-ban? Please confirm.

[tarheelpwr]

Along the lines of my previous thought, what all would be necessary to have in hand before a ban came into effect?

1) Shotgun itself
2) Fire control group
3) Pistol Grip/forend
4) any rails?

Also, I saw the mississippi vendor, but where else do you all get your parts?

[deth502]

I can always make the mods whenever? Is that correct? I can still make the mods after a potential ban as long as I've PURCHASED all the parts pre-ban? Please confirm.

to answer your question, probably not. when the awb went into effect, you couldnt legally put a bayonet lug on a pre-ban gun if it wasnt already there. im sure a new law on these would likely be the same way.

but, imo, first off, im sure there will be no way to prove that you DIDNT do it before the ban, should something happen and you do it afterwards, unless there a registration of some kind. second, calm down, nothings going to happen any time soon.

[tarheelpwr]

You're prob. right .... I tend to jump the gun when I get into things : )


Can anyone tell me what stock/PG that is? It looks like a side folder, but is it available in a fixed stock?

[WB!]

[QUOTE=ready;214542]A word of caution on the beretta. I had one and sold it because it wasn't reliable with low recoil tactical rounds. Never tried hunting loads but I suspect it would be the same story.

I've got a friend who has a Beretta semi-auto shotgun that he bought years ago. He had the same problem with his, until he took it to a local shop. They enlarged the gas hole slightly, and it works better. I still think the Mossberg and Remington pumps are hard to beat.