AK 47 Norinco....Triangle with 66..?? Help

[medic]

I got a Norinco AK 47 yesterday while trading around some stuff with a couple of friends. I am having trouble getting information on the rifle. It is driving me crazy. It does say MAK90 on it, so I know it is post ban. However, there is no date on it, no filing of the serial number, no numbers added to it. Barrel I thought was just machined down some, but it is still threaded, no illegal third hole, but, riveted not milled receiver. Yet is has the thumb hole stock on it, but it has the 3 holes for the folding stock still. I will post some pics and maybe someone can help me out. Excuse the marks, I have to go over it with some 0000 wool to get some surface rust off, it has a lot of microfiber lint on it from where I wiped it down. I am curious as to the history of it. I don't know much about AK's except I dropped my M1A for one several times after sand jamming. These things never jam, at least the ones I had the privilege to pick up anyway.

[Krupski]

I got a Norinco AK 47 yesterday while trading around some stuff with a couple of friends.

(1) Welcome to Gunsnet! :welcome:
(2) From what I can tell from the pictures, you have a nice rifle with a lot of potential.
(3) Check your TRIGGER axis pin... it looks like it's not secure and coming out about 1/16 of an inch..........
(4) If you are going to convert it back to normal (that is normal AK buttstock and handguards), you are going to have to comply with 922(r). If you don't know what that means shout out and we'll help you.

Again welcome and hope you have lots of good times here!

-- Roger

[Schuetzenman]

Your rifle is an underfolder originally. I've Never owned one like you have, a Chicom underfolder Mak90 type. I have owned fixed stock versions. On underfolders I've had my hands on Polish rifles via built two of them. Not certain if the chinese system is like the European versions. They might be and that circle with wings shape is probably just a cover plate made up to fill in the stock pivot sytstem.

[medic]

(1) Welcome to Gunsnet! :welcome:
(2) From what I can tell from the pictures, you have a nice rifle with a lot of potential.
(3) Check your TRIGGER axis pin... it looks like it's not secure and coming out about 1/16 of an inch..........
(4) If you are going to convert it back to normal (that is normal AK buttstock and handguards), you are going to have to comply with 922(r). If you don't know what that means shout out and we'll help you.

Again welcome and hope you have lots of good times here!

-- Roger Thank you guys for the quick response. I am unfamiliar with this rifles nomenclature, I can break it down etc. However, I have shot them, but in no way am I a gunsmith in the least bit. (humor) I will have a friend check the axis pin. I just noticed it. I have a lot of cleaning to do. I am going to remove some of the surface rust with some 0000 steel wool or copper and hopefully retain the blue. So, any idea on what type of rifle I have..may sound a little silly, however, I have found so many contradicting statements about markings and date stamps, underfolds, sidefolds, I haven't seen one with a thumbhole grip and still the access pins for the side fold stock/underfold. It says MAK90 so I am assuming it is a 90's model compliant with `1989 import band. I have no idea of what it is worth and a little research led me to offer a trade, I have two m&p 40 cal pistols, so I traded one for this rifle, two 40 round mags, and 200 rounds of ammo. Did I make a good choice and what else can you tell me about restoring it in compliance....Thank you all for the warm welcome.

Todd

[Krupski]

(1) I am unfamiliar with this rifles nomenclature, I can break it down etc. However, I have shot them, but in no way am I a gunsmith in the least bit. (humor) I will have a friend check the axis pin.

(2) Did I make a good choice and what else can you tell me about restoring it in compliance....Thank you all for the warm welcome.

Todd

(1) The "axis pin" is the pivot pin that supports the trigger and the other that supports the hammer (and the third one in a machinegun supports the safety sear). Each pin has a head a bit larger than the pin body diameter as well as a groove. A spring pin engages the grooves of both (or all three) pins and keeps them from sliding out the left side of the receiver. This sketch should help explain it (top view looking into receiver, only one pin shown - retaining wire ["shepherd's hook"] shown in red):

http://www.gunsnet.net/photopost/data/500/pins.jpg


(2) Yes you made a good choice. That is a good quality rifle (as opposed to a cheap-o WASR). If you modify the rifle from it's originally imported form (by replacing the butthole stock with a regular rifle stock for example), you need to comply with an absurd federal law called "922(r)" which states that you cannot "manufacture" a rifle containing more than 10 foreign (i.e. "original Chinese") parts.

Some people think that simply adding US made parts "offsets" the foreign parts, but that's wrong. You could have 1000 US made parts, but if there are still 11 or more original foreign parts, it's illegal.

There is a list of parts that count towards compliance (for example, screws and springs don't count).

Without going into it too deeply, the parts typically replaced in order to get compliance are:

Fire control group (Trigger, disconnector, hammer) which is 3 countable parts.
Pistol grip - 1 part
Gas piston - 1 part

See? Your rifle probably has 15 "countable" foreign parts in it and by replacing 5 of them with US parts, you get down to 10.

Other parts like the receiver, barrel, trunnions, etc... also count but are impractical to replace.

If your head is spinning from all this... and if your head is shaking in disgust at the absurdity of this law... welcome to the club! :)

On the practical side, there's no way for the feds to prove where your parts are made, and there's no way for you to prove that you are compliant... but you SHOULD try to follow the law anyway. That's what makes "us" better than "them".

Lastly... please do a search into "922(r) compliance" and research what needs to be done. My info above MAY have a mistake in it and I don't want to steer you wrong.

Oh and welcome again to Gunsnet! :welcome:

-- Roger

(edit to add): Here's some good info: http://cheaperthandirt.com/blog/?p=472

[Krupski]

......can you tell me about restoring it in compliance....

Speaking of compliance... how's this for absurdity:

I bought a Yugo SKS a few years ago. It was legally imported in it's configuration and therefore 922(r) compliant.

The rifle had a bayonet and a grenade launcher. I didn't need either of those items, and they made the rifle terribly front-heavy.

So, I removed them and shortened the barrel from around 24" to around 20".

Now here's the kicker... by REMOVING two "evil baby killing" items (bayonet and grenade launcher), I changed the rifle's configuration and technically now I had to replace some pieces inside to comply with 922(r)!!!

Yes, for REMOVING "evil" parts!!!

I'll get around to making it compliant... some day... :)

[medic]

I see what you are talking about. I can handle that, no drilling or assembly required. :). It is offset some, I am unsure if the cable shifted, but after a few pulls it has corrected its own position. I am still going to have a friend look at it to ensure its not weak or has just loosened over time. I am printing off 922r now. I do not want to modify it any really, I could not tell you how many parts are foreign or not. Honestly, they all look untouched with the exception of the grinding down (not complete) but close. Of the bayonet platform. The sight even has a 66 triangle on it. I have looked at so manh pictures I should be able to build one inside out by now HA.. So, the version I have is an original Norinco imported by the company listed below the MAK90 Stamp, most of the ones I have seen say sporter on it, this one doesnt, not to sound unmanly, lol, but I have no trouble with sticking my thumb in the BUTT hole stock..I am secure enough in my manly hood :), but what mods would you recommend and how would I find out the value of the rifle once I clean it up. One last question, the steel wool to remove the surface rust..oiled or not oiled, contradicting theories on that one, but is that the safest way to remove it and get this rifle T.O.T again. (time on target). Is there a website to look up the serial to see any further details regarding it? Much obliged and sorry for so many questions. Thanks again Roger.

Todd

[Schuetzenman]

I see what you are talking about. I can handle that, no drilling or assembly required. :). It is offset some, I am unsure if the cable shifted, but after a few pulls it has corrected its own position. I am still going to have a friend look at it to ensure its not weak or has just loosened over time. I am printing off 922r now. I do not want to modify it any really, I could not tell you how many parts are foreign or not. Honestly, they all look untouched with the exception of the grinding down (not complete) but close. Of the bayonet platform. The sight even has a 66 triangle on it. I have looked at so manh pictures I should be able to build one inside out by now HA.. So, the version I have is an original Norinco imported by the company listed below the MAK90 Stamp, most of the ones I have seen say sporter on it, this one doesnt, not to sound unmanly, lol, but I have no trouble with sticking my thumb in the BUTT hole stock..I am secure enough in my manly hood :), but what mods would you recommend and how would I find out the value of the rifle once I clean it up. One last question, the steel wool to remove the surface rust..oiled or not oiled, contradicting theories on that one, but is that the safest way to remove it and get this rifle T.O.T again. (time on target). Is there a website to look up the serial to see any further details regarding it? Much obliged and sorry for so many questions. Thanks again Roger.

Todd

From the images you posted it seems to be an unmolested Mak 90 built from an Underfolder AK from factory 66. Therefore all the parts in it are foreign but in it's current configuration is 100% legal to use with any 30, 40, 75 round mag regardless of country of origin for the magazine. IF you tried to restore it to military look alike status and put the under folder stock on it you would need to replace 6 components to keep your part count to 10 or less foreign made parts / components as defined in the 922 r legislation.

The AK such as yours has the following parts that are counted;

1. front trunion
2. rear trunion
3. receiver
4. hammer
5. trigger
6. disconnector
7. bolt
8. bolt carrier
9. piston
10. barrel
11. buttstock (the underfolder stock, wood or polymer fixed)
12. pistol grip
13. forearm stock set that includes the gas tube cover wood
14. magazine body
15. magazine follower (the bit that pushes up against the ammo)
16. Magazine floor plate

17. You haven't shown the muzzle of the weapon so I can only assume you have a smooth muzzle ahead of the front sight tower, no threads on it. Should you have that threaded then any muzzle device you screw on it would be a countable part. That could require you to add in yet another US component to keep the count to 10 or less foreign made parts.

[imanaknut]

Welcome to the world of the Chinese AK variants.

It is sad that George Bush the First believed that the way a firearm looked caused the owner to become a criminal, and that by removing those "evil features" the rifle would become angelic and incapable of hurting anything. Fortunately they left a way to return it to it's evil looks without turning the rifle into an evil baby killer. You can make it evil looking and still keep it angelic by removing enough foreign parts so that you have no more than 10 imported parts after conversion back to "evil looking".

Pretty sick, and one of the stupidest regulations ever written by man regarding firearm safety. Also the fact that any judge in this country would laugh an ATF agent out of court if he said that your rifle is evil with a Chinese made trigger, but installing an American made trigger made it angelically save!

You do have one of the most sought after MAK-90 variants, with the folding stock receiver, and the "MS" in the serial number indicates an early rifle that somehow got caught in the importation ban. The "M" rifles usually were marked "AK-47S" as opposed to the standard "56S" as the Chinese tried to figure out what would sell in the land of shall not be infringed. The "M" rifles usually had their model names stamped on the receiver as opposed to the later ones marked on the front trunion under the sight. And like all Chinese where the only rule was there were no rules, even the 56S can be found stamped on the trunion, or the front of the receiver, or the rear of the receiver.

To return the rifle to it's near 56S-1 glory (56S underfolder), remove the Bush-hole stock, cut the rivet that holds the two plates over the underfolder holes. Fairly easy to cut inside the receiver using a dremel. Then cut off the tang for the Bush-hole stock that was welded on to the receiver cover, refinish, and you now have an underfolder which in the AK world are more desired than the fixed stock. Just look at pictures from the middle east at the number of AKs you see with stocks removed.

Yes some people complain they can't get a good cheek weld on an underfolder, but I personally learned a long time ago that you don't have to do something that sounds so painful to still be a good shot. Never use a cheek weld with a pistol!!!!! ;)

There really is no way to date when your rifle was made. Judging by the "M" it is most likely mid to late 1980s but why it got stuck in port during the beginning of the ban is most likely the importer was storing the rifle at the port as they were unable to sell "those commie rifles" in the 1980s. It wasn't until the late '90s before the AK started becoming popular in the USA.

[medic]

SHEEZ!!!!!!!!! keep the grenade launcher :) hahaha that is completely irrational..... I would get around to fixing it in the near future....2040 maybe. LOL...So, My gun is actually an original.. Is that a good thing I guess. Assuming it is only worth around $400 SEEMS TO BE THE RATE I HAVE FOUND. As far as the end of the muzzle, yes it is threaded. I thought it was like the others and just machined to look that way, but my supressor screws on it fine. I took it back off without a problem. So, technically by adding that underfold, I would have to change 6 parts..thats absurd. I will keep it like it is, it shoots like a charm and it doesnt matter if its good ammo or low grade, it still fires within an 1 moa 100yd iron sight, benched. :) I like it!!! If I could find a couple more original 40 rounders not the plastic ones, then I would be even more "I LIKE IT" ha...So, these Ak's these guys are selling on gunbroker for $400-600 is just like mine without the pens for the underfold? So, my 40 cal (400 bucks basically) that I traded didnt set me back considering the rifle value? plus the 200 rounds of ammo.. I put it with my AR's (6) Now I need 5 more AK's and I will feel like someone. hahhaha by the way...I am NOT changing all that crap for a different stock. Am curious as to if the fact that it is unmolested (sounds like a bad prison phrase) then, it should have a history of some sort, and some value to it once I get done cleaning it good right? Your awesome man on replying to questions. I may kick my AR addiction and and AK it. :)

TODD


"It's not the size of the dog in the fight, but the size of the fight in the dog", D. Eisenhower

[medic]

Ok... I skipped this post and ran my mouth on the next one..Sorry...So, where do I find an underwear..for my sks, it may need new briefs :soapbox: ha.. yea, pistol and cheek, not a good combo.

[imanaknut]

Just a word on value. Your Norinco, because it has the underfolding receiver, usually commands a higher price than the standard fixed stock receiver. Fixed stock, or standard stock receiver MAK-90s are fairly easy to find, but the one like yours with an underfolding receiver is much harder to find.


Edited to add: I have been looking for a MAK-90 like you found. I have an underfolding stock just waiting for a receiver to fit onto. If your trade was worth $400, if I found a MAK-90 with an underfolder receiver for $400, I wouldn't be able to get the money out of the bank fast enough!!!!!

[Krupski]

One last question, the steel wool to remove the surface rust..oiled or not oiled...

DO NOT use steel wool or any other abrasive unless you have no other choice.

What works great for light surface rust is a piece of flannel cloth with oil on it.

Take the oily flannel sheet, fold it up a few times into a pad and scrub the rusty areas. The flannel is just rough enough to pull off fine surface rust without actually abrading anything.

If you have deep pitted rust, then flannel won't work... but try it first so you don't ruin the finish.


....sorry for so many questions.....

Hey my friend, that's why we're HERE! :)

Ask away!

-- Roger

[Krupski]

SHEEZ!!!!!!!!! keep the grenade launcher :)

It wasn't a 40mm type grenade launcher... it was one of those ringed tubes that's about 1 inch in diameter and about 6 inches long and a grenade launching "thing" slides over it, then a blank charge fires the launching "thing" and it's grenade when fired.

The grenade launcher had to be - no shit - 3 pounds of almost solid steel. It made the rifle horribly unbalanced (and I had absolutely no need for it anyway). So, hacksaw, then facing tool, then crowning tool and problem solved! :)

[Krupski]

Edited to add: I have been looking for a MAK-90 like you found. I have an underfolding stock just waiting for a receiver to fit onto. If your trade was worth $400, if I found a MAK-90 with an underfolder receiver for $400, I wouldn't be able to get the money out of the bank fast enough!!!!!

Amen to that!

I paid QUITE a lot more for a Norinco AK and it's not even an underfolder...

[Solidus-snake]

Aha, another KY member! Welcome to the forum :)