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old Grump
12-13-2011, 06:53 PM
Posted on 12 December 2011.



What is it about a person making a public declaration of their faith in Christ that supposedly offends certain people? At least one professional baseball team has a “homosexual community night” at their ball park. Imagine you’re sitting in the stands surrounded by Barney’s and Frank’s who are holding hands, kissing, and whispering endearing pleasantries next to you and your family – if you are like me, when the announcement was made to have a homosexual night, you made a note to never again attend another Philadelphia Phillies game.

http://mychal-massie.com/premium/abg-anything-but-god/
I was having a similar conversation on this topic with my brother long distance and then I run across this. Seems like more and more of us have had it up to here with the government toadies bending over backwards for less than 10% of the population and punishing the rest of us for exercising our first amendment rights.

LAGC
12-13-2011, 07:06 PM
Oh, those poor "oppressed" Christians!

Can't shove their religion in everyone's faces like they used to, so now they are all butt-hurt. Someone call a WAAAAAMBULANCE!

:coffee:

Sorry, but the First Amendment cuts both ways. You have a right to make an ass out of yourself and publicly declare your faith, but others have a right to ridicule you for being an ignorant dumb-ass just the same.

If ya can't take the heat, get out of the kitchen!

Warthogg
12-13-2011, 07:07 PM
I don't believe in any of the prophets so I don't look favorably on those throwing Moe-hamid or Jay-sus in my face. :baaa::holy-sheep::smiley10:


Wart

Full Otto
12-13-2011, 07:39 PM
Grump, so far I'd say your point is being proven for you

Warthogg
12-13-2011, 07:48 PM
Grump, so far I'd say your point is being proven for you

Read a little more carefully. old G's post title is: "ABG: Anything But God" which works just fine for me as I'm a deep believer in God. BUT he then posts "a public declaration of their faith in Christ".

For me God and Christ are not synonyms. Certainly old Guy has the right to offend me but I also have the right to be offended.


Wart

Kadmos
12-13-2011, 07:54 PM
I wonder if it isn't as simple as it makes people uncomfortable.

For a lot of people who aren't Christians, and probably a lot who are, some guy just talking about Jesus outside of the context of a church comes off a bit like a person who is trying to tell you the "truth" about aliens or how the government is out to get you.

I'm not trying to equate those, but frankly a lot of those who talk about Jesus just a little much for my taste do come off as creepy and more than a little bit "off".

Full Otto
12-13-2011, 07:55 PM
I read it just fine

Broondog
12-13-2011, 08:30 PM
i am an atheist but i do enjoy all of the banter and emotion you all put into your arguments concerning certain books that you find to hold special meaning. it is really quite entertaining.

BUT, i am also an American who understands the wording of the First Amendment in which it states "freedom OF religion", not from it. and if someone starts spouting religious stuff at me and i'm not in the mood for it, i just walk away.

everyone getting all butt hurt about it is pure silliness IMO, and they should just get over themselves and move on to something more important like getting Barry out of office, or getting rid of the illegals.

hey wait...aren't those two missions one in the same?

:lool:

Sergis Bauer
12-13-2011, 08:39 PM
Sorry, but the First Amendment cuts both ways. You have a right to make an ass out of yourself... but others have a right to ridicule you for being an ignorant dumb-ass just the same.

You are a daily reminder of this.

old Grump
12-13-2011, 08:58 PM
Why do I have the feeling nobody hit the link and read the rest of the article.

rahatlakhoom
12-13-2011, 09:07 PM
To me, a faith is a practice of mindfulness.
It is a joy of service to others without having to say anything.

Making declarations in public is like saying that you are exempt and clear
of certain responsibilites just by siding with God's favor.

It simply does not work this way.
With freedom, comes respect, tolerance.
We are all spiritually equals, and precious beyond measure.

If there is a God, it cannot choose sides within a mental playground of
who's on 1st. It's incomprehensibly silly.

Focused Gunfire
12-13-2011, 10:19 PM
People who support tyrannical central government no longer need Christians. It is a demographic they don’t think they can get back from their brothers with another name. The brother being the progressive Republicans by the way. So they employ their favored tactics of victimism, and Saul Alinsky.

It is all about control. They let you think its all rainbow flags until you are no longer needed, than comes the forced sterilization. Don’t forget the progressive’s history of eugenics.

LAGC
12-13-2011, 11:03 PM
Why do I have the feeling nobody hit the link and read the rest of the article.

I read the whole thing, Grump.

Do you really believe a "a third grade little girl can't openly give thanks for her meal at lunch?" There's nothing stopping her. Certainly not the teachers. Granted, other kids might make fun of her for being so ritualistic, but teachers sure won't stop them. Kids form voluntary prayer groups all the time in practically every school out there. The only thing that is illegal is if schools sponsor said prayer groups.

The reason "schools forbid teachers to have a nativity scene on their desk at Christmas" is because that would be a tacit endorsement of a particular religion by an authority figure who represents the school. If you want to see that kind of shit send your kids to a private religious school. Endorsements of particular religions don't belong in government schools. How would you like it if a Muslim teacher tried to push her religion on your kid in her classroom? It just doesn't belong there, not endorsed by authority figures.

And its a flat-out lie that "grade school children are forbidden to wear clothing that gives testimony to God." Kids wear religious shirts and chains all the time. Again, they might get heckled by other students, so negative peer-pressure might be there, but certainly nothing by the administration. When there is a violation of students' free speech rights, the ACLU has come to the defense of religious children expressing themselves time and time again. Even Christians.

Again, this is just more false claims of "persecution" by fundie Christians who want to be able to FORCE their religion on everyone like they used to get away with before more liberal Supreme Court justices stepped in and enforced the First Amendment.

By the way, what do you make of the second to last paragraph talking about only true Christians being "born again" Christians? Isn't that a slap against your Catholic faith?

You really ought to vet articles better before you post them there, Grump. ;)

Goodman
12-13-2011, 11:25 PM
Why do I have the feeling nobody hit the link and read the rest of the article.

The responses sure read that way

old Grump
12-13-2011, 11:28 PM
You really ought to vet articles better before you post them there, Grump. ;)I just read your response, forgive me if I don't take you seriously.

LAGC
12-13-2011, 11:51 PM
I just read your response, forgive me if I don't take you seriously.

Just tell me if anything I said isn't true. Do you have any evidence at all of religious students not being able to freely express themselves at school as that linked article suggests?

weevil
12-13-2011, 11:52 PM
It is rather amazing how one young man praising God has caused such bitter resentment and controversy.


He's not the first athlete to thank Jesus, I seen boxers and even other football players do the same thing for years but no one ever seemed to get nearly as upset or offended by it.


Is it perhaps because he's had success when everyone predicted failure?


Is it they feel this is some sort of "cheating" by getting help from the Lord?


Or perhaps anger because it might be proof that living clean and thanking the Lord for your success does mean something.

ltorlo64
12-14-2011, 12:16 AM
I read the whole thing, Grump.

Do you really believe a "a third grade little girl can't openly give thanks for her meal at lunch?" There's nothing stopping her. Certainly not the teachers. Granted, other kids might make fun of her for being so ritualistic, but teachers sure won't stop them. Kids form voluntary prayer groups all the time in practically every school out there. The only thing that is illegal is if schools sponsor said prayer groups.


Prayer and the pledge of allegiance in public schools remain controversial legal issues. Since the mid-twentieth century, the federal courts have placed limits upon state power to require or even permit these popular cultural practices. Two landmark Supreme Court decisions in the 1960s banned prayer in public school, and subsequent decisions have mostly strengthened the ban. By comparison, the courts have held since the 1940s that the pledge of allegiance is permissible, provided that it is voluntary. Massive public dissatisfaction with these constraints is ongoing. http://www.enotes.com/education-reference/school-prayer-pledge-allegiance


The reason "schools forbid teachers to have a nativity scene on their desk at Christmas" is because that would be a tacit endorsement of a particular religion by an authority figure who represents the school. If you want to see that kind of shit send your kids to a private religious school. Endorsements of particular religions don't belong in government schools. How would you like it if a Muslim teacher tried to push her religion on your kid in her classroom? It just doesn't belong there, not endorsed by authority figures.

If a teacher is openly homosexual, isn't that that endorsing homosexuality by an authority figure? What about an atheist? Same thing. The problem is, even if you remove all religious thoughts and references from school, all you have done is have government endorse secularism, which is another form or religion that replaces "God" with humans (or governments which is still human). You cannot divorce religion from teaching, you only change the religion.


And its a flat-out lie that "grade school children are forbidden to wear clothing that gives testimony to God." Kids wear religious shirts and chains all the time. Again, they might get heckled by other students, so negative peer-pressure might be there, but certainly nothing by the administration. When there is a violation of students' free speech rights, the ACLU has come to the defense of religious children expressing themselves time and time again. Even Christians.

As much as I hate to use the ACLU to prove your point wrong.

The ACLU of Texas (2011) opposed a public high school’s policy prohibiting students from wearing visible rosaries and crosses in the Brownsville Independent School District. http://www.aclutx.org/2011/11/18/aclu-of-texas-demands-brownsville-isd-disclose-policies-banning-rosaries-and-crosses-at-school/

The ACLU of Nebraska (2011) opposed a policy at Fremont Public School that would prevent students from wearing Catholic rosaries to school.
http://www.aclunebraska.org/index.php/religious-liberty/127-that-gang-of-nuns-looks-pretty-dangerous

There are more examples at http://www.aclu.org/aclu-defense-religious-practice-and-expression. You could argue that these were successfully defended against. One of the points of the article was that it should not be necessary in our country, with freedom of religion, to have to defend against any attacks on religious expression. Especially one as simple as wearing a cross or a christian saying on a t-shirt.


Again, this is just more false claims of "persecution" by fundie Christians who want to be able to FORCE their religion on everyone like they used to get away with before more liberal Supreme Court justices stepped in and enforced the First Amendment.

How is discussing my religion, saying a prayer over my food, reading my Bible any different from the protected forms of speech like waving a rainbow flag, cursing like a sailor (and I know how sailors curse) or reading a book that insinuates (or worse) that people who believe in the Bible are mindless idoits? I do not force my beliefs on anyone, but my beliefs are part of me, part of what make me who I am and as such the color my speech, my answers to questions and the way I live. Just as your beliefs do the same for you. But in the case of someone who does not profess a belief in "God" this is considered freedom, in my case it is considered "forcing my religion on everyone".

Warthogg
12-14-2011, 01:04 AM
I wonder if it isn't as simple as it makes people uncomfortable.



Yup.


Wart

LAGC
12-14-2011, 02:42 AM
http://www.enotes.com/education-reference/school-prayer-pledge-allegiance

That's a pretty informative link you posted there. It's true that back in the 19th Century, forced prayer was common in schools (as churches doubled as school-houses before separate public schools were created) -- but note that it wasn't non-believers who got rid of organized prayer in schools, it was rival religious groups who didn't approve of the particular mandatory prayers being forced on all students. Catholics were a big force behind the move, as they didn't approve of Protestant prayer, being told things like they had to be "saved" if they wanted to get to heaven. The Catholic Church teaches that attending church and honoring the sacraments is good enough to get into heaven, they didn't want Protestant teachers telling their children otherwise.


If a teacher is openly homosexual, isn't that that endorsing homosexuality by an authority figure?

What do you mean by "openly homosexual?" Unless the teacher is ACTING OUT sexually and touching the kids (which would be a pedophile, not a homosexual), what's the big deal? It's not like teachers are "recruiting kids into the homosexual lifestyle" as the fundies like to claim, you make it sound like just being a homosexual is a communicable disease that might somehow "rub off" on the students.

:laugh:

Does an African American teacher being "openly black" somehow make them unqualified to teach? I fail to see the outrage.


What about an atheist? Same thing.

If a "militant" atheist teacher was actually teaching kids that God doesn't exist, that might be a problem. But where is that happening? Maybe in a college philosophy class, but in grade school? It's unheard of.


The problem is, even if you remove all religious thoughts and references from school, all you have done is have government endorse secularism, which is another form or religion that replaces "God" with humans (or governments which is still human). You cannot divorce religion from teaching, you only change the religion.

Well the nice thing about secularism is its pretty neutral. I'm sure Muslim students would prefer Muslim prayers, Jewish students would prefer Jewish prayers, Christians would prefer Christian prayer, the only way to keep everyone happy is to just have no school-sponsored prayer at all, or else you end up infringing on others' rights.


As much as I hate to use the ACLU to prove your point wrong.

Uh, those examples you posted proved my point. The ACLU sided with the Christian students AGAINST the school districts who were in the wrong.


There are more examples at http://www.aclu.org/aclu-defense-religious-practice-and-expression. You could argue that these were successfully defended against. One of the points of the article was that it should not be necessary in our country, with freedom of religion, to have to defend against any attacks on religious expression. Especially one as simple as wearing a cross or a christian saying on a t-shirt.

Well, that's what we have courts for. When a school district abuses its power and tells kids they can't wear a cross or rosary or religious T-shirt, kids can file suit and force the school to let them. It seems the system is working.


How is discussing my religion, saying a prayer over my food, reading my Bible any different from the protected forms of speech like waving a rainbow flag, cursing like a sailor (and I know how sailors curse) or reading a book that insinuates (or worse) that people who believe in the Bible are mindless idoits? I do not force my beliefs on anyone, but my beliefs are part of me, part of what make me who I am and as such the color my speech, my answers to questions and the way I live. Just as your beliefs do the same for you. But in the case of someone who does not profess a belief in "God" this is considered freedom, in my case it is considered "forcing my religion on everyone".

And you, and students, can do all of those things ON YOUR OWN TIME. Public schools are for educating kids about things like math, social studies, science, etc. Sectarian prayer is just an unnecessary distraction. I have no problem with a school-sponsored moment of silence for kids to reflect (or pray quietly to whatever gods they prefer), and neither does the ACLU. Just don't force your particular preferred prayer one everyone else by making the teacher recite it, or worse: over the P.A. system.

stinker
12-14-2011, 02:56 AM
For a lot of people who aren't Christians, and probably a lot who are, some guy just talking about Jesus outside of the context of a church comes off a bit like a person who is trying to tell you the "truth" about aliens or how the government is out to get you.

One teensy problem with that thought, the government actually is out to get us. :big-eye-eek:

Dr. Gonzo GED
12-14-2011, 03:16 AM
One teensy problem with that thought, the government actually is out to get us. :big-eye-eek:
The alien thing is also true.
http://i85.photobucket.com/albums/k51/otto_rex/liza_minelli_wedding.jpg

stinker
12-14-2011, 03:37 AM
Just tell me if anything I said isn't true. Do you have any evidence at all of religious students not being able to freely express themselves at school as that linked article suggests?

Expulsion threatened over prayer for sick teacher (http://www.wnd.com/?pageId=94397)
12 Washington State High School Students Suspended for Public Prayer Group (http://www.lifesitenews.com/news/archive/ldn/2007/mar/07030609)
Idaho Academy Continues Fight to Lift Bible Ban in Schools (http://www.christianpost.com/news/idaho-academy-continues-fight-to-lift-bible-ban-in-state-public-schools-50946/)
Court: NYC Can Ban Churches From School Buildings (http://radio.foxnews.com/toddstarnes/top-stories/court-nyc-can-ban-churches-from-school-buildings.html)
Court Upholds Ban on Bible Distribution to Fifth-Graders (http://abcnews.go.com/ad/gmaintroad.html?goback=http%3A%2F%2Fabcnews.go.com %2FTheLaw%2FwireStory%3Fid%3D3509509)
Court Upholds Ban on Gideon Bible Distribution in Public Schools (http://atheism.about.com/b/2007/08/25/court-upholds-ban-on-gideon-bible-distribution-in-public-schools.htm)
Supreme Court: Ban on Prayer in Public Schools (http://www.scrollpublishing.com/store/Abingdon-School-District.html)
Catoosa school board upholds Bible verse ban (http://www.timesfreepress.com/news/2009/oct/14/catoosa-school-board-upholds-bible-verse-ban/)
Supreme Court Allows Ban on Church Services in School (http://www.thenewamerican.com/usnews/constitution/10085-supreme-court-allows-ban-on-church-services-in-school)
Placentia School's Bible-Club Ban Fought (http://articles.latimes.com/2003/feb/07/local/me-bible7)
Court Allows School Ban on Ads for Bible Clubs (http://articles.latimes.com/1988-11-01/news/mn-633_1_high-school)
Christian Students Protest Book Ban (http://www.cbn.com/CBNnews/457606.aspx)

The search function on your browser is your friend.
Just a few quick headlines in no particular order without having read deeply into any of the articles.

Has anyone in your life ever asked you what it's like to be stupid?
Just curious.

LAGC
12-14-2011, 04:31 AM
Expulsion threatened over prayer for sick teacher (http://www.wnd.com/?pageId=94397)
12 Washington State High School Students Suspended for Public Prayer Group (http://www.lifesitenews.com/news/archive/ldn/2007/mar/07030609)
Idaho Academy Continues Fight to Lift Bible Ban in Schools (http://www.christianpost.com/news/idaho-academy-continues-fight-to-lift-bible-ban-in-state-public-schools-50946/)
Court: NYC Can Ban Churches From School Buildings (http://radio.foxnews.com/toddstarnes/top-stories/court-nyc-can-ban-churches-from-school-buildings.html)
Court Upholds Ban on Bible Distribution to Fifth-Graders (http://abcnews.go.com/ad/gmaintroad.html?goback=http%3A%2F%2Fabcnews.go.com %2FTheLaw%2FwireStory%3Fid%3D3509509)
Court Upholds Ban on Gideon Bible Distribution in Public Schools (http://atheism.about.com/b/2007/08/25/court-upholds-ban-on-gideon-bible-distribution-in-public-schools.htm)
Supreme Court: Ban on Prayer in Public Schools (http://www.scrollpublishing.com/store/Abingdon-School-District.html)
Catoosa school board upholds Bible verse ban (http://www.timesfreepress.com/news/2009/oct/14/catoosa-school-board-upholds-bible-verse-ban/)
Supreme Court Allows Ban on Church Services in School (http://www.thenewamerican.com/usnews/constitution/10085-supreme-court-allows-ban-on-church-services-in-school)
Placentia School's Bible-Club Ban Fought (http://articles.latimes.com/2003/feb/07/local/me-bible7)
Court Allows School Ban on Ads for Bible Clubs (http://articles.latimes.com/1988-11-01/news/mn-633_1_high-school)
Christian Students Protest Book Ban (http://www.cbn.com/CBNnews/457606.aspx)

The search function on your browser is your friend.
Just a few quick headlines in no particular order without having read deeply into any of the articles.

Perhaps you should have. Most of those examples you gave involve schools illegally trying to endorse or push particular religious propaganda on students. Schools have no business favoring or promoting one particular religion over others.

That first link is the only one that may have some merit, as it just sounds like a misunderstanding, and sounds like the Federal courts will rule in their favor.

Solidus-snake
12-14-2011, 04:40 AM
Uh, no I can tell you personally that there are several schools that prohibit children from having Bibles in school, prohibit prayer groups on school property, and do not have any sanctioned moments of silence for prayer or reflection, as this shit happened in some local schools.

No, the new status quo is soon becoming "Freedom FROM religion"

BTW, your a sincere Dumbass if you think thst there are no college professors with agendas to spread Atheism and stomp out religion.

l921428x
12-14-2011, 05:01 AM
Perhaps you should have. Most of those examples you gave involve schools illegally trying to endorse or push particular religious propaganda on students. Schools have no business favoring or promoting one particular religion over others.

That first link is the only one that may have some merit, as it just sounds like a misunderstanding, and sounds like the Federal courts will rule in their favor.

Global Warming comes to mind, it is a religion. Takes faith and the gov. is pushing the faith.

old Grump
12-14-2011, 06:27 PM
Upside-down Land



You know you live in Upside-down Land if...

* A Muslim officer crying "Allah Akbar" while shooting up an army base is considered to have committed "Workplace Violence" while an American citizen boasting a Ron Paul bumper sticker is classified as a "Domestic Terrorist".

You know you live in Upside-down Land if...

* Your government believes that the best way to eradicate trillions of dollars of debt is to spend more money.

You know you live in Upside-down Land if...

* A seven year old boy can be thrown out of school for calling his teacher "cute" but hosting a sexual exploration class on a college campus is perfectly acceptable.

You know you live in Upside-down Land if...

* The Supreme Court of the United States can rule that lower courts cannot display the 10 Commandments in their courtroom, while sitting in front of a display of the 10 Commandments.

You know you live in Upside-down Land if...

* Children are forcibly removed from parents who appropriately discipline them while children of "underprivileged" drug addicts are left to rot in filth infested cesspools.

You know you live in Upside-down Land if...

* Working class Americans pay for their own health care (and the health care of everyone else) while unmarried women are free to have child after child on the "State's" dime while never being held responsible for their own choices.

You know you live in Upside-down Land if...

* Hard work and success are rewarded with higher taxes and government intrusion, while slothful, lazy behavior is rewarded with EBT cards, WIC checks, Medicaid and subsidized housing.

You know you live in Upside-down Land if...

* The government's plan for getting people back to work is to provide 99 weeks of unemployment checks (to not work).

You know you live in Upside-down Land if...

* Being self-sufficient is considered a threat to the government.

You know you live in Upside-down Land if...

* Politicians think that stripping away the amendments to the constitution is really protecting the rights of the people.

You know you live in Upside-down Land if...

* The rights of the State come before the rights of the individual.

You know you live in Upside-down Land if...

* Parents believe the State is responsible for providing for their children.

You know you live in Upside-down Land if...

* You can write a post like this just by reading the news headlines.

You know you live in Upside-down Land if...

* You pay your mortgage faithfully, denying yourself the newest big screen TV while your neighbor defaults on his mortgage (while buying iphones, TV's and new cars) and the government forgives his debt and reduces his mortgage (with your tax dollars).

You know you live in Upside-down Land if...

* Your government can add anything they want to your kid's water (fluoride, chlorine, etc.) but you are not allowed to give them raw milk.

You know you live in Upside-down Land if...

* Being stripped of the ability to defend yourself makes you "safe".

You know you live in Upside-down Land if...

* You have to have your parents signature to go on a field trip but not to get an abortion.

You know you live in Upside-down Land if...

* You can get arrested for expired tabs on your car but not for being in the country illegally.

You know you live in Upside-down Land if...

* An 80 year old woman can be stripped searched by the TSA but a Muslim woman in a burqa is only subject to having her neck and head searched.

You know you live in Upside-down Land if...

* Using the "N" word is considered "hate speech" but writing and signing songs about raping women and killing cops is considered "art".

Unfortunately, this list could go on and on.



www.paratusfamiliablog.com (http://www.paratusfamiliablog.com/)


Get it? Some of us do and we don't like it.

Warthogg
12-14-2011, 07:55 PM
One teensy problem with that thought, the government actually is out to get us. :big-eye-eek:

Or maybe a just marginally and slightly larger problem. The .gov already has gotten us.



Wart

Cypher
12-15-2011, 10:15 AM
There is a huge double standard in this country, it's ok to run in gay parades or wear shirts proclaiming your an atheist but not if you wear a shirt proclaiming your a Christian. Why is it ok for them to act however they want but Christians can't make it known they are Christians, at least in some peoples views. The fact of the matter is it's a double standard and no one should be scrutinized in this country for what they believe.

Think about it, it's a-ok to go to a sporting event with no shirt and things painted all over your body, wearing a ridiculous hat or outfit, yelling and screaming when your team scores a point and acting crazy, getting angry and ready to fight when the other team scores a point but if someone goes to Church and raises their hand to praise the creator of all matter or they mention to someone their love of their Savior they are a freak.... weather your a Christian or not does that seem right to anyone.

I'm not saying Christians should "shove it down someones throat", IMO if someone doesn't want to talk about it then I won't talk about it and literally 99% of the Christians I know feel the same way. However if I want to say thank God for something or that I am blessed then tough titty said the kitty I will say what I want and there is nothing anyone is going to do about it. If someone doesn't like the fact I am a Christian then I could care less, that's their problem.

In Tebow's case why does anyone care if he says thank the Lord for something? I hear people say stuff that I don't agree with all the time but I don't try to stop them from saying it or pass laws making it illegal or get them fired for it, I simply think they are idiots and go about my business.



Just tell me if anything I said isn't true. Do you have any evidence at all of religious students not being able to freely express themselves at school as that linked article suggests?

Are for real? There is almost a constant flow of reports about kids being expelled, disciplined and ridiculed for their Christian faith not to count all the other problems you read about in college and the work place.



Get it? Some of us do and we don't like it.

Yep, it's a sad thing, this list is an eye opener.

LAGC
12-15-2011, 10:32 AM
In Tebow's case why does anyone care if he says thank the Lord for something? I hear people say stuff that I don't agree with all the time but I don't try to stop them from saying it or pass laws making it illegal or get them fired for it, I simply think they are idiots and go about my business.

I think it has more to do with the Christian hypocrisy than anything else.

Does the New Testament not preach that you are supposed to pray and praise the Lord in private? (Matthew 6:6)

Why do Christians feel the constant need to make public spectacles out of their faith when their own preferred holy book says to do the exact opposite?

Cypher
12-15-2011, 10:36 AM
I think it has more to do with the Christian hypocrisy than anything else.

Does the New Testament not preach that you are supposed to pray and praise the Lord in private? (Matthew 6:6)

Why do Christians feel the constant need to make public spectacles out of their faith when their own preferred holy book says to do the exact opposite?

You obviously don't know the Bible very well. The real question is why do people care if someone bows their head and prays in public if they are not trying to force others to do the same thing. People at football games games very publicly display how they feel but I don't see anyone trying to ban how they act or publicly scrutinize and scorn them on a regular basis.

weevil
12-15-2011, 12:04 PM
I think it has more to do with the Christian hypocrisy than anything else.

Does the New Testament not preach that you are supposed to pray and praise the Lord in private? (Matthew 6:6)

Why do Christians feel the constant need to make public spectacles out of their faith when their own preferred holy book says to do the exact opposite?


It also teaches us to spread the word of God.

He said to "Go into all the world and preach the gospel to all creation" Mark 16:15

And the gospel must first be preached to all nations Mark 13:10

LAGC
12-15-2011, 12:05 PM
It also teaches us to spread the word of God.

Okay, so how does making a pompous show of your faith (a la Tebow) forward that goal? If you turn more people off to your message by making a big show out of it, aren't you being counter-productive?

Spreading faith is what missionaries are for, not sports stars.

weevil
12-15-2011, 12:24 PM
Okay, so how does making a pompous show of your faith (a la Tebow) forward that goal? If you turn more people off to your message by making a big show out of it, aren't you being counter-productive?

Spreading faith is what missionaries are for, not sports stars.



Says who, you???


If a Christian wishes to praise the Lord and give thanks to God that's his constitutionally guaranteed right.

It says a lot more about the heart and soul of the people who are "turned off" by his "pompous show of faith" than it does about this young man and his beliefs.



But then again I can certainly understand why losers with nothing, who have no reason to thank God would be upset and envious of someone who God has shined upon.

:biggrina:

Focused Gunfire
12-15-2011, 12:49 PM
I see nothing pompous about Tebow’s praying.

Sergis Bauer
12-15-2011, 03:15 PM
I see nothing pompous about Tebow’s praying.

+1

Jesus did not preach against praying in public or praising the name of God-- just the opposite. What he was against was ostentatious displays of piety. I think it's a tremndous stretch that only a liberal who feels uncomfortable at the merest whiff of spirituality could make that Tim Tebow is making a grandiose display in his thankfulness. What I've seen is a guy who quickly and succinctly praises his Lord and thanks him for His gifts before jumping over to whatever the ESPN or NFL Network folks want to talk about.

Kadmos
12-15-2011, 03:46 PM
Supreme Court: Ban on Prayer in Public Schools (http://www.scrollpublishing.com/store/Abingdon-School-District.html)


This is really what you want in public schools? The principal to be able to have students read bible verses and say the lords prayer every day over the PA system?

Do you not understand that a lot of people would have a big problem with that?

Is it ok for a Muslim principal to have the kids read the Koran over the PA to your kids?

Can I assume you probably wouldn't be ok with that?

Then how do you think I would feel having my kids principal reading the NT to my Jewish kids?

There are about 225 million Christians in the US (83% of the population), being served by roughly 320,000 Christian churches. Is anyone actually stopping you from going to them? Do you have to push past protesters to get into your church? Are you unable to find copies of the Bible? Are you unable to take your children? Is the government tracking down Christians and throwing them into concentration camps?

No offense, but maybe you should get the hell over your selves then and quit bitching.

weevil
12-15-2011, 04:53 PM
This is really what you want in public schools? The principal to be able to have students read bible verses and say the lords prayer every day over the PA system?

Do you not understand that a lot of people would have a big problem with that?

Is it ok for a Muslim principal to have the kids read the Koran over the PA to your kids?

Can I assume you probably wouldn't be ok with that?

Then how do you think I would feel having my kids principal reading the NT to my Jewish kids?

There are about 225 million Christians in the US (83% of the population), being served by roughly 320,000 Christian churches. Is anyone actually stopping you from going to them? Do you have to push past protesters to get into your church? Are you unable to find copies of the Bible? Are you unable to take your children? Is the government tracking down Christians and throwing them into concentration camps?

No offense, but maybe you should get the hell over your selves then and quit bitching.



Yeah I think most of us agree that a public official like a school principal using his authority to force his religious beliefs on children is wrong, regadless of what religion it is.

Just as most of us think it's wong to deny those same children the right to express their religion through a prayer, or a bow towards mecca, or wearing a necklace with a Star of David.

Do you think it's right to deny children the right to use school facilites for a bible, koran, torah study class after school?


No public schools should not encourage one religion over another but they should not discourage and discriminate against those of faith.


Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

Kadmos
12-15-2011, 07:09 PM
Yeah I think most of us agree that a public official like a school principal using his authority to force his religious beliefs on children is wrong, regadless of what religion it is.

Just as most of us think it's wong to deny those same children the right to express their religion through a prayer, or a bow towards mecca, or wearing a necklace with a Star of David.

Do you think it's right to deny children the right to use school facilites for a bible, koran, torah study class after school?


No public schools should not encourage one religion over another but they should not discourage and discriminate against those of faith.


Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

I 100% agree.

I have no problem with a little room, without any specific decoration, where the kids can go and pray if they want, by themselves or with other groups of STUDENTS.

I have no problem with using public facities as places to pray if people so choose and it doesn't interfere with the actual duties of the space.

Wanna use the school gym after hours while your church, temple, mosque get's built/rebuilt/renovated ...I'm perfectly cool with that.

I do prefer when other religious institutions lend thier space though, I think it's very giving and good spirited...churches in the US, particularly protestant churches have for decades lent space for jews to worship. I think that's awesome. Of course they are equally free not to do so.

Wanna wear a cross, star of David, upside down cross, or Wiccan symbol as a necklace at school, no problem.

But I do get tired of the "War on Christmas" whining bullshit. It's not like you can't find a place to worship, or look at Christmas lights (I love them :) ), or whatever.