Sporter M44 troubles

[panzerman]

Good Morning all, just joined this morning and looking forward to learning much about the (2) M44 carbines I have. This is not a fair question since you cannot see my rifle but am at wits end trying to figure out what is going on so am asking you all for some ideas. I have a 1954 M44 Romanian carbine that someone sometime made a sporter out of, I have had a devil of a time getting it on paper and keeping it there at 50m. The bore is a bit rough but not shot out. The trigger is horrible. I noticed today that after firing and taking it apart to clean the the rifle the rear guard tang screw was not tight nor was the front guard screw. I tightened them down snugly but was not able to depress the trigger to get the bolt in the receiver, so I loosened the screws up which freed the trigger and bolt slid right in, then tightened the screws back down. I was now not able to fire the rifle as the trigger would not budge. The loose guard screws I am sure had something to do with the poor shooting but what the heck is the remedy?

[Dr. Gonzo GED]

Well for one, those M44s were sighted in with the bayonet extended. This causes point of impact issues when you shoot it with the bayo is stowed, or as I'm assuming in your case, completely removed. (Changes barrel harmonics)

So you're accuracy problem probably has to do with your rifle not being properly zero'd in. Also check the crown. It can be pretty beat up on some of these.

As for the trigger thing. Sound like a issue with your aftermarket stock. I'd try to find the spots where the stock is interfering with the moving parts and cut those areas back some. A smarter idea would be to get more detailed advice from someone on here that knows more than me.

Good luck!

[panzerman]

Good point on the bayonet, but I should be able to correct for that?? Or not? The crown is not bad at all. Am hoping someone who has sporterized one of these carbines will see this and immediately know what my issue is. For the life of me I cannot figure what part of the aftermarket stock is causing the rear of the receiver to try and lift when trigger is pulled. I am sure you are correct that there is interference but I cannot tell where. Thanks anyway.

[Dr. Gonzo GED]

Good point on the bayonet, but I should be able to correct for that?? Or not?
You should be able to adjust the sights and zero it in like any other rifle.

I would reccomend taking it to a smith though since you're having several issues at once.

[panzerman]

Yep was going to do that but hate going to see him without a clue as to what is wrong. He is a great guy but will spend the first few minutes berating me and asking me why I don't know my rifle etc etc...All in good nature in his own way.

[deth502]

loose action screws should not have been too detrimental to the accuracy. it sounds like something is hitting something inside the stock. first thing id do would be to find out what part of the trigger is hitting what part of the stock and relieve the stock in that area so that the gun actually fits in the action. get that done, and go from there. thats the most pressing issue right now.

[deth502]

I am sure you are correct that there is interference but I cannot tell where. Thanks anyway.

youll need some kind of marking/transfer medium. if the stock is black/dark, which im assuming it is, you need something lighter to show up. an easy home remedy is to get some of your wifes lipstick (or yours, if your a cross dresser, im not here to judge) and rub it on the trigger, then assemble it. you will see where the red has rubbed off onto the stock, thats where it hitting. if its a lighter colored stock, some dark grease will work well too.

[deth502]

or you could pony up the cash and actually buy some inletting black, if you can find it (brownells, maybe?). but wheres the fun in that?

[Schuetzenman]

Hello, welcome to Gunsnet's C&R Forums. I have owned many Mosin Nagant rifles over the years. The mechanisms are fairly simple. If you can't pull the trigger with the stock bolts tight, then the after market stock is binding the trigger. As suggested you need to find where and remove some of the stock material. Another possibility would be to shim up the the trigger guard floor plate to enable the bolts to be drawn tight and not bind the trigger mechanism.

As to the M44 with bayonet extended vs. not extended and sighting in. The bayonet will pull the groups to the right when extended if you sight it in folded. If you sight it in extended then fold it back and shoot your groups will move to the left. Which ever way you opt to sight it in, you have to shoot it that way or learn how far to hold off to compensate.

[panzerman]

Oh goodie, I am in luck just got a new shade of working girl red so that should be an easy fix, thanks much!!

[panzerman]

Hello, welcome to Gunsnet's C&R Forums. I have owned many Mosin Nagant rifles over the years. The mechanisms are fairly simple. If you can't pull the trigger with the stock bolts tight, then the after market stock is binding the trigger. As suggested you need to find where and remove some of the stock material. Another possibility would be to shim up the the trigger guard floor plate to enable the bolts to be drawn tight and not bind the trigger mechanism.

As to the M44 with bayonet extended vs. not extended and sighting in. The bayonet will pull the groups to the right when extended if you sight it in folded. If you sight it in extended then fold it back and shoot your groups will move to the left. Which ever way you opt to sight it in, you have to shoot it that way or learn how far to hold off to compensate.


Roger, will work on all using the lipstick first then shimming if I just cant tell. The bayonet is gone, it seems like someone ground off the mounting stud as well so it's not like I can reattach it either. On my stock M44 extending the bayonet did help some and that little carbine actually shoots rather nicely, it is pretty odd though that extending the bayonet helps as most rifles do not like the bayonet hanging out there. . Thanks to all for the help, I do appreciate it.

[panzerman]

In case anyone cares I figured I would post that I found out what the problem wrt to the trigger was; apparently someone had put an adjustable trigger with ball bearing on it, causing the sear(?) to sit too high. I was not able to adjust it correctly and either had the trigger binding or not catching. I had another trigger off an no longer owned Mosin and replaced it so the carbine functions nicely now. We will see how accuracy is affected or not. I had a muzzle brake on it at one time but had removed it figuring it may have been causing some of the issues. It does seem to reduce recoil considerably and gives a rather nice flash. Thanks again to all.,

[deth502]

it is pretty odd though that extending the bayonet helps as most rifles do not like the bayonet hanging out there. .

im sure the bayonet dosent "help" id bet it probably makes the accuracy much worse, extended and hanging off the bbl, BUT the thing is, the rifle was made, sighted, and adjusted to do it. the bayonets were always out. the russians fought, shot, marched, and trained with bayo's attached and ready.

[panzerman]

Roger, interesting concept, now should I still be able to make corrections via the scope in order to bring the shots back right, (since I cannot go to the range til tomorrow) or??? Common sense tells me I should be able to correct but then again perhaps there is something that you all know that will prevent me from doing this. It was a Huber Concepts trigger(looked it up last night) and as you suggested and according to the installation video it does require a little trimming on the stock where the trigger rests ( if I decide to re-install it)

[deth502]

the problem is, as i said, they were made to fire with the bayo mounted/extended, and sighted that way. when you dont use it or take it off, there is very little room for adjustment. iirc, none at all for elevation (other than the fixed rear site which is ramped for distance) and a small amount of windage by drifting the front site. which is why they are usually hard to get to shoot w/o the bayo.

putting a scope on it would give you the room you need to correct the windage and elevation for wherever it shoots, negating that problem.

but do keep in mind, it was never really a terribly accurate rifle, and the ammo available isint the best quality, so dont think youll be getting nice little sub-moa groups, or youll just be disappointed. not that it cant be a great shooter, but it wont be a tack driver.

[Schuetzenman]

On accuracy, the typical M44 or Mosin for that matter will do 2 to 2.5" groups. I have had some that averaged 1.25 to 1.5" groups with certain brands of surplus ammo. The three best surplus ammos I've encountered are; 1. Russian 147 gr. silver tips in a spam can from the mid 1980's to mid 1990's. 2. Hungarian silver tip 147 gr. light ball ammo with a metalic gray lacquered case color and red primer sealant. 3. Yugoslav 180 gr. heavy ball from the 1980's to 1990's. Ammo to avoid; Czech ammo from before 1965. It all had really bad primers and 1/2 of any box would be duds. Really old 1940's era Russian ammo, dud primers also. Albanian, said to be noncorrosive, most was noncorrosive but also many of them had fat rims and many a Mosin's bolt wouldn't close on it.

[panzerman]

Ok copy all. Not looking for a sniper rifle and do understand the limits of the carbine and ammo, i have 147gr FMJ Russian surplus but unsure of year. Ballistically how does this round compare to 30-06, .303 and 8mm? Some folks tell me it is a fantastic round and others not so. It has had a long service life and with my limited research it seems they held some marksmanship records for a time correct?

[Schuetzenman]

Ok copy all. Not looking for a sniper rifle and do understand the limits of the carbine and ammo, i have 147gr FMJ Russian surplus but unsure of year. Ballistically how does this round compare to 30-06, .303 and 8mm? Some folks tell me it is a fantastic round and others not so. It has had a long service life and with my limited research it seems they held some marksmanship records for a time correct?

Don't know about marksmanship records, but it is the longest in continuous service military cartridge bar none. On power factor think of it as a rimmed .30-06 cartridge. Most of the 147 gr. ammo is going to be doing 2800+ fps out of a 91-30 long gun. Probably 2600 + fps out of the short rifles like the M44. .303 and 8 mm are a lot slower heavier bullets 170 to 180 gr. or more. The 147 lt. ball rounds are a lot flatter shooting. Soft point ammo will do a fine job on any North American Deer.

[O.S.O.K.]

I don't think I saw mention of the accuracy - which is hard to determine with the other problems you had. If it's not doing too well, I would suggest looking at the crown - maybe consider getting a 45 degree chamfering tool (cutter with .310" pilot) and cleaning that up - Brownells sells them.

And if you're using the iron sights, you might consider getting a mid-barrel mount that replaces the rear sight and installing a long eye relief scope - that will allow you to easily zero it. Will be better for hunting too.

And do post a pic if you can. We'd all like to see it.

And welcome to the board!

[panzerman]

Pics to follow shortly....

[panzerman]

1540

[Schuetzenman]

Well that looks about like I expected given your verbal descriptions. Should make a handy deer rifle.

[panzerman]

Yep I was hoping so, we will see though if I can get the accuracy issues corrected. Understand she will not be a tack driver but certainly better than what I am getting now which resembles a nice pattern of double ought buck!

[panzerman]

Finally got her on paper and she was printing 4 inch groups at 50 yards with 147 gr FMJ and silver tip both surplus. However i began to have more issues with the trigger as it got tighter with more and more travel and to the point of not releasing the firing pin several times even though the bolt was locked and the pin had been cocked. I even felt like the bolt was binding when i was trying to operate it after the weapon heated up...