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ATAK, Inc.
08-27-2010, 11:12 AM
Is the M855/SS109 ammo worth the cost? OK, pretty vague question that depends on lots of factors, so how about personal opinions on the stuff.

Also, what kind of penetration does this stuff have on mild steel plate?

And, is the PMC stuff any good?


TIA

circuits
08-27-2010, 12:50 PM
SS109 is an FN-Herstal designation for its "enhanced penetration" design 5.56mm bullet. When loaded to STANAG specs, it qualifies the loaded cartridge for the NATO cross and circle symbol on the headstamp and designation as "5.56 NATO".

When the SS109 bullet design is loaded to US military specs, it qualifies for the designation "M855" as well as "5.56 NATO".

Most of the "SS109" marketed commercial ammo does not even meet NATO, let alone M855 specs.

However, if loaded to M855 specs, the 62gr SS109 composite bullet has a mild steel penetrator embedded in a FMJ boat-tail lead bullet, and its acceptance criteria was penetration of both sides of an old steel pot type helmet at 600m when fired from the FN Minimi light machinegun (versions of which are in use with US Forces as the M249 SAW and Mk49, Mod something).

From the Ammo Oracle:
M855: Defined in MIL-C-63989
NATO specifications for M855 Ball require a 61.7 grain (q 1.5 grains) with a hardened steel penetrator at a velocity of 3,000 fps (q 40 fps) from a 20" barrel @ 78 feet from the muzzle. Typical velocity 15 feet from the M16A2's muzzle is 3,100 fps. Accuracy: maximum of approximately four MOA over the 100 to 600 yard range. Typical accuracy of average lots in an M16A2 is about 2+ MOA. This round must also penetrate a nominal 10 gauge SAE 1010 or 1020 steel test plate at a range of at least 570 meters (623 yards). The M193 round will penetrate this same plate reliably at 400 yards and about half the time at 500 yards.

ATAK, Inc.
08-27-2010, 01:00 PM
SS109 is an FN-Herstal designation for its "enhanced penetration" design 5.56mm bullet. When loaded to STANAG specs, it qualifies the loaded cartridge for the NATO cross and circle symbol on the headstamp and designation as "5.56 NATO".

When the SS109 bullet design is loaded to US military specs, it qualifies for the designation "M855" as well as "5.56 NATO".

Most of the "SS109" marketed commercial ammo does not even meet NATO, let alone M855 specs.

However, if loaded to M855 specs, the 62gr SS109 composite bullet has a mild steel penetrator embedded in a FMJ boat-tail lead bullet, and its acceptance criteria was penetration of both sides of an old steel pot type helmet at 600m when fired from the FN Minimi light machinegun (versions of which are in use with US Forces as the M249 SAW and Mk49, Mod something).

From the Ammo Oracle:
M855: Defined in MIL-C-63989
NATO specifications for M855 Ball require a 61.7 grain (q 1.5 grains) with a hardened steel penetrator at a velocity of 3,000 fps (q 40 fps) from a 20" barrel @ 78 feet from the muzzle. Typical velocity 15 feet from the M16A2's muzzle is 3,100 fps. Accuracy: maximum of approximately four MOA over the 100 to 600 yard range. Typical accuracy of average lots in an M16A2 is about 2+ MOA. This round must also penetrate a nominal 10 gauge SAE 1010 or 1020 steel test plate at a range of at least 570 meters (623 yards). The M193 round will penetrate this same plate reliably at 400 yards and about half the time at 500 yards.


Circuits, thanks for the very in depth info!! Much better than simple one line answers.

Question, is this ammo worth the cost for something minimally armor piercing? Or is it more effective buying twice the ammo for the same price and leave the "punching holes" in steel plate for my 7.62x54r? Some API put a nice clean hole thru 3/4" plate at 100m, but lost the plate in the move. Got some 1" thick pieces, but it is only 2-1/2"x3-1/2", not much margin for error for expensive ammo (got over 120rds of API).

Just read what I wrote and realized I'm asking a very subjective question.

Charliebravo
08-27-2010, 01:02 PM
I got some of the PMC X-TAC from AIM a while back. It was no more expensive than regular 55 grain FMJ, so I bought a case. Haven't shot any of it yet though. That's on my "to-do" list for the next range session. I'll probably only shoot a box or two though. I'm saving it as my Zombie Apocalypse ammo.

The only thing I've seen that was any cheaper was steel cased Russian stuff.

AIM now has it back in stock for $6.19/box if you buy a whole case, so $309.50 plus about $20 in shipping. Not a bad deal.

ATAK, Inc.
08-27-2010, 01:05 PM
I got some of the PMC X-TAC from AIM a while back. It was no more expensive than regular 55 grain FMJ, so I bought a case. Haven't shot any of it yet though. That's on my "to-do" list for the next range session. I'll probably only shoot a box or two though. I'm saving it as my Zombie Apocalypse ammo.

The only I've seen that was any cheaper was steel cased Russian stuff.


Let me know what you think after you run some thru, I'm still contemplating getting some.



Tom

matshock
08-27-2010, 02:40 PM
At ranges of <200 yards M193 will actually have MORE penetration than M855 due to it's higher velocity.

SS109 was designed to stay nose-forward at longer ranges more than anything else.

I keep some as an investment, real M855 never seems to go down in price too much.



I'd rather fight with M193 and heavyweight (69 gr+) BTHP rounds for longer-ranged shots.

ATAK, Inc.
08-27-2010, 03:22 PM
Will regular 62gr rounds do the same thing? As far as staying pointy end first for longer range?

abpt1
08-27-2010, 03:45 PM
Standard hunting 150gr sp in 7.62x54 will poke a hole in 1/2' steel @ 50 yds

M855 (ss109) 62gr 1/4 of steel at 50yds

M193 55gr fmj 1/8-3/16 @ 50yds

matshock
08-27-2010, 05:38 PM
Will regular 62gr rounds do the same thing? As far as staying pointy end first for longer range?

FMJs? maybe a little bit longer. Like I said 69 gr + match rounds (hollow point boat tail or HPBT) were made for longer ranges.

The only commercially loaded 62 gr. solid lead core fmj's I've used so far were from Privi Partizan and the loading felt pretty light (low velocity). I think Federal loads some 62 grain solid lead fmj rounds but I bet they're pricey.

I have some Black Hills 68 grain (yeah, 68, I dunno why they went with that instead of 69) Red Box HPBT ammo that I get 1 MOA groups with from my A2 (at 200 yards) They should be GTG for harrassing people at longer ranges.

abpt1
08-27-2010, 05:45 PM
FMJs? maybe a little bit longer. Like I said 69 gr + match rounds (hollow point boat tail or HPBT) were made for longer ranges.

The only commercially loaded 62 gr. solid lead core fmj's I've used so far were from Privi Partizan and the loading felt pretty light (low velocity). I think Federal loads some 62 grain solid lead fmj rounds but I bet they're pricey.

I have some Black Hills 68 grain (yeah, 68, I dunno why they went with that instead of 69) Red Box HPBT ammo that I get 1 MOA groups with from my A2 (at 200 yards) They should be GTG for harrassing people at longer ranges.

wolf has 62fmj LC but for distance i like the sierra 69hpbt and for my pistol I use hornady 75gr hpbt it dont shoot too great at longer distance but I like to think the 75gr makes up for velocity loss with the weight .

ATAK, Inc.
08-27-2010, 05:51 PM
FMJs? maybe a little bit longer. Like I said 69 gr + match rounds (hollow point boat tail or HPBT) were made for longer ranges.

The only commercially loaded 62 gr. solid lead core fmj's I've used so far were from Privi Partizan and the loading felt pretty light (low velocity). I think Federal loads some 62 grain solid lead fmj rounds but I bet they're pricey.

I have some Black Hills 68 grain (yeah, 68, I dunno why they went with that instead of 69) Red Box HPBT ammo that I get 1 MOA groups with from my A2 (at 200 yards) They should be GTG for harrassing people at longer ranges.



2-300 yards is all I would want from 5.56, same goes for my x39 and 5.45 rifles. After that, any harrassment will come from my PKM (for crowd control), or my Dragunov (when getting personal really counts)!

Schuetzenman
08-27-2010, 05:58 PM
IMO the best M855 is either the US Gov. over run stuff or IMI M855. Right now I only know where to find the IMI which is at Widener's in Johnson City TN. About 32 to 33 cents a round.

Some acceptable quality M855 type ammo is the white boxed Privi Partisan that AIM has in stock now for about 30 cents a round. I have shot it and it seems close to the results of the IMI. When the IMI M855 was 24 cents a round the Privi use to run me 18 cents a round. The prices aren't back there ... yet. With any luck they might come back.

abpt1
08-27-2010, 05:58 PM
nope for 200+ yards I switch to .270win 130gr Nolser partition

0 @ 200yds still moving 2750-2800 fps

abpt1
08-27-2010, 06:00 PM
IMO the best M855 is either the US Gov. over run stuff or IMI M855. Right now I only know where to find the IMI which is at Widener's in Johnson City TN. About 32 to 33 cents a round.

Some acceptable quality M855 type ammo is the white boxed Privi Partisan that AIM has in stock now for about 30 cents a round. I have shot it and it seems close to the results of the IMI. When the IMI M855 was 24 cents a round the Privi use to run me 18 cents a round. The prices aren't back there ... yet. With any luck they might come back.
yeah I have tried them all and LC is the most accrute but you cant beat the Privi price!!!


http://www.palmettostatearmory.com/179.php also has them $309.00 per 1k +$12 shipping.

matshock
08-27-2010, 06:10 PM
Well, in that case I'd go with M193- if wounds better farther than M855. While M855 does a bit better past 200 yards it still won't be going fast enough to fragment so it doesn't really matter in real-world terms.

I just keep M855 because that's what the military is using and folks who don't know better want it.

Arnulf
08-27-2010, 06:40 PM
I bought a shitload of this stuff a long time ago....a magnet will stick to it....head stamp is ZV 93....its good ammo.....fun to shoot up old junk cars with.

http://i43.photobucket.com/albums/e399/nordland/DSC_0001-9.jpg

abpt1
08-27-2010, 07:05 PM
I bought a shitload of this stuff a long time ago....a magnet will stick to it....head stamp is ZV 93....its good ammo.....fun to shoot up old junk cars with.

http://i43.photobucket.com/albums/e399/nordland/DSC_0001-9.jpg
Is that S&B stuff? I remember that S&B ss109 KB'ed a lot of rifles about 10 years ago

Arnulf
08-27-2010, 07:11 PM
Is that S&B stuff? I remember that S&B ss109 KB'ed a lot of rifles about 10 years ago

I don't know...I just got a bunch of it trading with my MM brothers.

abpt1
08-27-2010, 07:14 PM
Weigh one see what it weighs then shoot it..Then weigh them one at a time any thing 3gr over I would pull .

Arnulf
08-27-2010, 07:28 PM
Weigh one see what it weighs then shoot it..Then weigh them one at a time any thing 3gr over I would pull .

I don't have an Ar at the moment.....but I have loaded up one of those 100rd chicom drum mags and shot up old junk cars without any problem....and lots of other plinking around.

abpt1
08-27-2010, 07:41 PM
OK I think the bad batch was circa 96-97

Arnulf
08-27-2010, 07:46 PM
OK I think the bad batch was circa 96-97

Yeah.....its ok...those MM guys shot a ton of it.

NewbieAKguy
08-28-2010, 12:58 AM
I got some of the PMC X-TAC from AIM a while back. It was no more expensive than regular 55 grain FMJ, so I bought a case. Haven't shot any of it yet though. That's on my "to-do" list for the next range session. I'll probably only shoot a box or two though. I'm saving it as my Zombie Apocalypse ammo.

The only thing I've seen that was any cheaper was steel cased Russian stuff.

AIM now has it back in stock for $6.19/box if you buy a whole case, so $309.50 plus about $20 in shipping. Not a bad deal.

Scored a case myself. Haven't tried it yet either. Range results will be much appreciated if you get to try them before I do.