What did these people expect while applying for fast-food jobs?

[skorpion]

Just read this story on Fox that had me scratching my head: Fast food workers in half-a-dozen cities are conducting walk-out protests because they don't like their wages and they want them double to $15 an hour. What I don't get is why sign-up for a job to begin with when you don't like the wages? It's not like employers keep the wages a secret to those who sign up. My first actual job was working at a small-chain grocery store. Even as a teenager, I knew I wasn't going to be raking in the money or working there for more than a couple of years. I didn't expect to get paid $40,000 a year to mop floors, stock shelves, and guide pissed-off old ladies to the aisle with the mothballs.

People perplex me. Don't like the wages? Don't sign up for the gig! If you want more dough, go make something of yourself and develop a skill set other than tossing fries into grease and find a better-paying job!

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2013/07/29/fast-food-workers-plan-one-day-strike-for-monday/


Don’t expect to have it your way today at some fast-food restaurants across the country.

Workers at the nation’s best known fast-food restaurants in seven cities across America are planning to walk off the job Monday to protest what they say are wages that are too low to live on. In a move orchestrated with the help of powerful labor unions and clergy groups, the workers plan to strike for a day to demand their wages be doubled.

[rci2950]

Give them the raise and then double the price of the shit food.

Fuckem. Let them go without the job when nobody buys that crap to eat anymore.

[CigarGuy]

I think this is another diversion that Dear Leader can embrace?
Doubling minimum wages will create jobs.........?(that was sarcasm)

[coppertales]

A prime example of why so many workers in fast food places don't speak english......chris3

[LAGC]

A lot of people just don't have the luxury of choosing these days. There are many college grads who can't find work in their own field, they are taking subordinate jobs just to get by.

I don't blame workers for fighting for better compensation. Everyone says the owners set the "market" wages, but labor demands are part of the "market" calculus as well.

If these fast-food joints can't keep and retain workers with the shit wages they pay, they need to start paying more. Just part of the cost of doing business.

[Richard Simmons]

As I see it the main focus of a college education is to pursue a course of study that will provide you with a career upon graduation. If you get a degree that isn't marketable them you chose poorly. The fact that people choose poorly and are stuck taking a job in fast food that is/was primarily designed for high school students doesn't mean the job should pay college graduate wages.

If a person needs $30,000 a year to live then they need to acquire the skillset to make $30,000 a year rather then expecting an entry level, high school job to provide that income.

[TEN-32]

When the fast food chains cut all full-time jobs to 20 hours a week due to obamacare, these workers will need the extra money to go out and buy their "free" health insurance. Unless of course they are exempted...like the Treasury workers union is demanding. You know, those 16,000 extra IRS agents hired and armed to enforce obamacare on the rest of us...

[Goodman]

This is just beautiful. The entitlement mentality is fully matured. Unrealistic expectations about one's self worth in the marketplace- too funny.
I see nothing but good coming from this. On one hand activists and organizers will have the sham they've been selling exposed. Their lies and false promises will fall apart. On the other hand where business owners concede rising prices and business failures will weed out the weak and, perhaps best of all, the price of that garbage 'food' will skyrocket or become altogether unavailable.

[CigarGuy]

Didn't WalMart want to open a location in DC but the city council passed a bill that said any retail facility over 75,000 sq ft(WalMart) HAD to pay a minimum wage of $12.50 or something like that.
That "woosh" you heard was WalMart taking all those jobs and low prices for their customers quickly away.

[Richard Simmons]

Didn't WalMart want to open a location in DC but the city council passed a bill that said any retail facility over 75,000 sq ft(WalMart) HAD to pay a minimum wage of $12.50 or something like that.
That "woosh" you heard was WalMart taking all those jobs and low prices for their customers quickly away.

IIRC Walmart had three new stores in the works but the last I heard they were either canceling those stores or at least were threatening to cancel them if the new, higher minimum wage became law.

[CigarGuy]

This, to me, best defines the differences between Conservative and Liberal philosophy.

[ltorlo64]

I don't blame workers for fighting for better compensation. Everyone says the owners set the "market" wages, but labor demands are part of the "market" calculus as well.

If these fast-food joints can't keep and retain workers with the shit wages they pay, they need to start paying more. Just part of the cost of doing business.

While you are correct that the market calculus includes wages (as well as many other things), what you fail to understand is that the only way to pay for the increase in wages is to raise the price of the food. Raise the price of the food and less people will buy it. As less people buy it, with all other factors staying the same, the only way to make up the short fall is to lower wages (or number of employees) or raise food prices again. Soon, just like Hostess, the resturant goes out of business. Then, not only do the people not have a job, but the city, county, state and federal governments lose tax revenue.

Next, the argument will be that the emplyer can take a pay cut. Obviously you don't know many fast food resturant owners. I have known a few and they work very hard, much harder than their employees. Well, what about the owner of chain, they can take less for licensing fees. That starts to impact the investors, people like me who have their retirements in mutual funds, so the manager stops investing causing the whole chain to be in danger.

If you want better pay, get educated (either through apprenticeship, school, changing jobs), or learn to live with what you make. Do without the cell phone and cable. Get rid of the TV. It is amazing how much more money you have when the TV is not telling you what you are missing.

[1 Patriot-of-many]

A lot of people just don't have the luxury of choosing these days. There are many college grads who can't find work in their own field, they are taking subordinate jobs just to get by.

I don't blame workers for fighting for better compensation. Everyone says the owners set the "market" wages, but labor demands are part of the "market" calculus as well.

If these fast-food joints can't keep and retain workers with the shit wages they pay, they need to start paying more. Just part of the cost of doing business. Maybe they shouldn't have majored in basket weaving. And I thought the Obama recovery was going so well.....

[Helen Keller]

Dont eat their shit food .

[was_peacemaker]

Maybe they shouldn't have majored in basket weaving. And I thought the Obama recovery was going so well.....

No its even worse than that now. These days every person in college is a sociologist! Or a wannabe sociologist. Where do you think MSNBC gets its base from?

[Richard Simmons]

Maybe they shouldn't have majored in basket weaving. And I thought the Obama recovery was going so well.....

One of my coworkers put his daughter through college and she graduated with a degree in Political Science. No idea what she thought she was going to do once she graduated and I guess she didn't either. After college she worked for some company doing collections then got a job as a receptionist. After a couple of years of making squat she decided to get a masters and go into education. Today she's doing quite well for her age as a school teacher though being a conservative and refusing to join the NEA hasn't exactly helped her in that regard.

Going to college for the sake of going is a waste of time and money.

[Helen Keller]

Going to college for the sake of going is a waste of time and money.


if you want to make $$$, get a trade skill or anything technical.

[Dr. Gonzo GED]

Fry cook is NOT a $15 a hour job.

The problem isn't that they should be paid more, it's that goods and services should cost less. I know that prices can't be reduced but "bailout" could be for the people instead the @$$-holes who screwed them out of their savings.

Would it really be so bad if the government redistributed some of the pork or foreign aids money towards subsidising housing or utilities for everyone?

We already do the same thing to keep the cost of certain comodities down, why not do it for things that REALY matter. Screw a gallon of milk, I could pay four bucks for milk if my rent was cut in half!

And a fry cook could get by on their shite wage under the same circumstances too.

[Viking350]

Fry cook is NOT a $15 a hour job.

The problem isn't that they should be paid more, it's that goods and services should cost less. I know that prices can't be reduced but "bailout" could be for the people instead the @$$-holes who screwed them out of their savings.

Would it really be so bad if the government redistributed some of the pork or foreign aids money towards subsidising housing or utilities for everyone?

We already do the same thing to keep the cost of certain comodities down, why not do it for things that REALY matter. Screw a gallon of milk, I could pay four bucks for milk if my rent was cut in half!

And a fry cook could get by on their shite wage under the same circumstances too.

Fuck no! If they want a higher standard of living, they need to work for it. If the minimum wage goes up to $12.50 / hr (it won't but hypothetical) then all wages will have to go up. Otherwise why not quit your job with all the headaches and go flip burgers? Subsides are like a drug. Once you start them, you can't stop.

[Dr. Gonzo GED]

Fuck no! If they want a higher standard of living, they need to work for it.

This "pull yourself up by your bootstraps" shit doesn't take into account areas where the best job available is frickin' fry cook.

You want people to get an education and contribute? They'd have a better chance of doing that if their basic necessities were actually attainable on that minimum wage. As it is, there is NOWHERE in the U.S. where you can support yourself even working full time at that wage. Not even just rent. How do you expect that fry cook to pay for their education when they can't even provide basic life support for themselves.

http://educationvoters.org/2012/03/16/map-compares-cost-of-living-across-the-u-s/

That's just wrong. Socially, economically, WRONG. This is the very reason low income areas are so crime ridden. You can actually support yourself dealing contraband. Take home more in an afternoon than Mr. Fry Cook makes in two weeks.

Obviously raising minimum wage raises overhead causing inflation. So that isn't the answer. Hence my "redirection of wasted money" idea. Take some of the funds we simply throw out the window to dictators and private interest groups who don't deserve it and use that to subsidize rents and wages. Take the load of the people and PUT OUR OWN TAX MONEY TO WORK FOR US. That isn't "the government's" money. THAT IS OUR MONEY! Yes, even Mr. Fry Cook pays into that kitty so even Mr. Fry Cook should benefit from his contribution.

The rest of the first world actually supports their citizens in achieving a higher standard of living. We exploit and poison ours until the only recourse is anti social in nature. Hence, the sick society we see around ourselves.

You want to see what it looks like when a government invests in it's own people? Look at Iceland. One of the only countries thriving in today's economy because they've jailed the crooked bankers and politicians then bailed out the people (not the banks). That's the opposite of what we do. And they aren't some communist, rust-world shit hole either. They're a first world nation with a high standards of living.

Things that make you go "hmmm"?

[LAGC]

I'll just leave this here:

http://www.nelp.org/page/-/rtmw/uploads/Real-Value-Minimum-Wage-NELP.jpg

[Richard Simmons]

This "pull yourself up by your bootstraps" shit doesn't take into account areas where the best job available is frickin' fry cook.

You want people to get an education and contribute? They'd have a better chance of doing that if their basic necessities were actually attainable on that minimum wage. As it is, there is NOWHERE in the U.S. where you can support yourself even working full time at that wage. Not even just rent. How do you expect that fry cook to pay for their education when they can't even provide basic life support for themselves.

http://educationvoters.org/2012/03/16/map-compares-cost-of-living-across-the-u-s/

That's just wrong. Socially, economically, WRONG. This is the very reason low income areas are so crime ridden. You can actually support yourself dealing contraband. Take home more in an afternoon than Mr. Fry Cook makes in two weeks.

Obviously raising minimum wage raises overhead causing inflation. So that isn't the answer. Hence my "redirection of wasted money" idea. Take some of the funds we simply throw out the window to dictators and private interest groups who don't deserve it and use that to subsidize rents and wages. Take the load of the people and PUT OUR OWN TAX MONEY TO WORK FOR US. That isn't "the government's" money. THAT IS OUR MONEY! Yes, even Mr. Fry Cook pays into that kitty so even Mr. Fry Cook should benefit from his contribution.

The rest of the first world actually supports their citizens in achieving a higher standard of living. We exploit and poison ours until the only recourse is anti social in nature. Hence, the sick society we see around ourselves.

You want to see what it looks like when a government invests in it's own people? Look at Iceland. One of the only countries thriving in today's economy because they've jailed the crooked bankers and politicians then bailed out the people (not the banks). That's the opposite of what we do. And they aren't some communist, rust-world shit hole either. They're a first world nation with a high standards of living.

Things that make you go "hmmm"?

So moving to Iceland sounds like a good option. I vote we subsidize immigration there.

How long do you subsidize someone, six months, six years, forever? Look at welfare if you want to see that government investment leads to. How would your program fare any better?

[Dr. Gonzo GED]

So moving to Iceland sounds like a good option. I vote we subsidize immigration there.

How long do you subsidize someone, six months, six years, forever? Look at welfare if you want to see that government investment leads to. How would your program fare any better?

Welfare falls flat because the people receiving it can abuse it in any way they see fit. There is no control on how they spend their money. Hence no class mofo's sitting on ass drinking 2% beer.

What I propose is not money going to individuals, but to landlords and property owners and utility providers so that they can charge lower rates without and still turn a profit. Some type of "price control" would proabably be necesary to keep providers from gaming the system but that would be far more managable than trying to stop a third generation welfare rat from spending their check on 40's and dope.

Basically I'm talking about the same thing we do with milk, grain, tobaco and petro chemicals. Taxes pay for a share of the overhead to keep the market cost low. That's why we don't pay $7 a "liter" for gas like the do in Europe.

Or would you rather we keep funelling our tax dollars into Nancy Pelolsi's joint bank account?

[Richard Simmons]

Welfare falls flat because the people receiving it can abuse it in any way they see fit. There is no control on how they spend their money. Hence no class mofo's sitting on ass drinking 2% beer.

What I propose is not money going to individuals, but to landlords and property owners and utility providers so that they can charge lower rates without and still turn a profit. Some type of "price control" would proabably be necesary to keep providers from gaming the system but that would be far more managable than trying to stop a third generation welfare rat from spending their check on 40's and dope.

Basically I'm talking about the same thing we do with milk, grain, tobaco and petro chemicals. Taxes pay for a share of the overhead to keep the market cost low. That's why we don't pay $7 a "liter" for gas like the do in Europe.

Or would you rather we keep funelling our tax dollars into Nancy Pelolsi's joint bank account?

We already have Section 8 housing so how is your system different? Again, how long do you subsidize these folks? What's to keep someone that's making minimum wage from taking the subsidized housing and any other benefits you would provide and doing nothing to better themselves?

http://www.housing-voucher.com/v1?path=60&s_source=Microsoft&s_network=Search&s_kw=section+8+housing&s_ad=950246244&s_qs=section+8+housing&split_id=267

http://www.utilitybillassistance.com/html/utility_bill_assistance_progra.html

[Dr. Gonzo GED]

We already have Section 8 housing so how is your system different? Again, how long do you subsidize these folks? What's to keep someone that's making minimum wage from taking the subsidized housing and any other benefits you would provide and doing nothing to better themselves?

Nothing, but their foolish "raise minimum wage" argument would lose any merit or momentum it may have now. Not to mention the money would provide for genuine necesities insterad of dope and swag. Housing, utilities and helthcare.

The incentive is this; when you don't have to work 90 hours a week just to eat poisonous shit and live in a hovel you can actually dedicate your time and income to getting that trade education to "earn the better paying job". You hae alternatives to selling crack or robbing people.

I'm not just talking about "section 8 housing" either. I'm talking about "across the board". Tax incentives or straight up subsidies to housing providers using funds that right now are being used to "subsidize" people who don't need or deserve them. I'm talking about paying productive Americans to stay productive while benefiting the poor at the same time. I'm talking about actually investing in America, Richard. Not Egypt, not Israel, not Afganistan, not Pakistan but America. Investing in our citizens.

Why are you opposed to raising the standard of living for all Americans, Richard?

[Richard Simmons]

Why are you opposed to raising the standard of living for all Americans, Richard?


Don't start taking this conversation in a personal direction. I'm simply asking you to specify what makes your proposed system different from what we have now. No one is working 90 hours a week and if they were they'd be bringing home a pretty good paycheck. I have no problem with not giving money to other countries but I'd rather get my tax dollars back in my paycheck than support another welfare scheme.

[Ruskiegunlover]

Dr. Gonzo, put DOWN the crack pipe.

These jobs WERE NEVER supposed to be jobs where the average worker could raise a family with two cars and a house. Frankly, its rather a socialistic thought to try and claim they SHOULD be or were SUPPOSED to be. Really? Pay a guy who dropped out of highschool the same to flip a fucking burger as I make? No. You pay people based on their skills. In high school, you HAVE no skills. So, you take shitty, smelly, menial jobs to get by until you get to college, where you work 1-2 jobs, pay cash if possible, or WORST CASE SCENARIO take out loans to pay for it. Thats what I did.

OR, you work your fucking ass off (like I did) at menial jobs to EARN the right to expect to make more. Case in point:

I started working at an Old Chicago literally the week before 9/11. Started off making 6:50 per hour. I was a door guy from 10pm to 2am. I usually was a host from 6-10 pm, or sometimes bused tables from 6-10 pm for the same plus tips. As a host, even though it was NOT my job, I worked my ass off to help clean tables and keep the place flowing as we were always busy, and the wait staff REALLY appriciated it (they secretly tipped me more then the normal bus boys, as I SWEATED MY EYEBALLS OUT helping them out.....KEY: I WORKED HARDER AT IT.....) The store manager noticed, and 3 weeks after I started I got a raise to 8 bucks an hour. Guy (name was Danny) walked up one night and told me bluntly he didn't pay me enough. Smiled, told me I was now making 8 an hour. Shocked the hell out of me. Did I slow down? Get pissy? NO. Worked HARDER. A couple of months later, he walked up, said again that he still wasn't paying me enough, and said I was now making 9 bucks an hour. NO SHIT. Some of you will think I am full of shit on this, but it happened. I worked there for 3 years. Made 9 an hour plus tips when I bused.

Point is, DO NOT think these jobs will support you. They are STARTER jobs, no more. If you choose UNwisely in life, and know these WILL be the kind of jobs you work the rest of your life, or if you just give up, then you are placed in a position where you will have to PROVE your worth as an employee to get promoted to managerial positions to make more.

OR, we can all strive to be better socialists comrades and fight for workers rights to make more than they are worth in the market, in the name of equality of outcome for all! Onward comrades! DOWN with the rich, lazy bourgeoisie bastards who don't DESERVE to own these restaurants! What did THEY do to deserve them? The WORKERS should own them, eh comrades! The unskilled, uneducated workers who dropped out of school at 17 will run them better I say, eh comrades???

[Ruskiegunlover]

Also, I must say, if they start paying these people 16-17 bucks an hour at 17 years old, that is FRIGHTFULLY close to what I make as a goddamned teacher. A teacher with quite a lot of college hours, training, and experience. Is that the world we will now live in?

And yeah, just subsidize these people? Really? Boy, THATS the gravy train....Hell, lets just subsidize EVERYTHING. Car dealerships during the winter when its harder to make money....Tree trimmers in the winter, snow shovelers in the summer.....Who else should we subsidize? Oh, and won't that mean that uncle sam is now going to have a say in these employment fields? Uncle sugar doesn't just GIVE OUT MONEY with no strings guys. You know that Gonzo. So, what do we have NOW when we start the subsidizing gravy train? Gov subsidizes more and more, controls more and more, and we have.........anyone want to take a guess? Class? Bueller? Bueller?

[LAGC]

I think the answer, clearly, is to abolish the minimum wage. If workers in Haiti can make it on $2/day, then, by God, so can the poor here.

Suck it up, America!

[Ruskiegunlover]

Yeah, let the free market work. Lagcsocialist got it right for a change. My mother in law, who doesn't LIKE unions, once told me when I worked for cessna while in college that if it wasn't for the union I would be making 8 bucks an hour instead of the crazy 21 an hour plus overtime I was making. I replied that she was right, only that if the company was only willing to pay that I would rather be in the ac in a restaurant or a blockbuster video making 7.50 an hour, and they could find someone else. Because, see, THATS HOW IT WORKS. THATS LIFE. Just like the supply/ demand curve WORKS, so too is there a balance here. Companies would never be able to pay even mcdonalds employees 2 bucks an hour, because it would be below the amount ANYONE could do anything with. Its a joke, when the libtards claim that without mw we all would be back to industrial revolution wages. Dumb as hell, but thats what most socialists are.

[Dr. Gonzo GED]

Don't start taking this conversation in a personal direction. I'm simply asking you to specify what makes your proposed system different from what we have now. No one is working 90 hours a week and if they were they'd be bringing home a pretty good paycheck. I have no problem with not giving money to other countries but I'd rather get my tax dollars back in my paycheck than support another welfare scheme.


Dr. Gonzo, put DOWN the crack pipe.

These jobs WERE NEVER supposed to be jobs where the average worker could raise a family with two cars and a house. Frankly, its rather a socialistic thought to try and claim they SHOULD be or were SUPPOSED to be. Really? Pay a guy who dropped out of highschool the same to flip a fucking burger as I make? No. You pay people based on their skills. In high school, you HAVE no skills. So, you take shitty, smelly, menial jobs to get by until you get to college, where you work 1-2 jobs, pay cash if possible, or WORST CASE SCENARIO take out loans to pay for it. Thats what I did.

OR, you work your fucking ass off (like I did) at menial jobs to EARN the right to expect to make more. Case in point:

I started working at an Old Chicago literally the week before 9/11. Started off making 6:50 per hour. I was a door guy from 10pm to 2am. I usually was a host from 6-10 pm, or sometimes bused tables from 6-10 pm for the same plus tips. As a host, even though it was NOT my job, I worked my ass off to help clean tables and keep the place flowing as we were always busy, and the wait staff REALLY appriciated it (they secretly tipped me more then the normal bus boys, as I SWEATED MY EYEBALLS OUT helping them out.....KEY: I WORKED HARDER AT IT.....) The store manager noticed, and 3 weeks after I started I got a raise to 8 bucks an hour. Guy (name was Danny) walked up one night and told me bluntly he didn't pay me enough. Smiled, told me I was now making 8 an hour. Shocked the hell out of me. Did I slow down? Get pissy? NO. Worked HARDER. A couple of months later, he walked up, said again that he still wasn't paying me enough, and said I was now making 9 bucks an hour. NO SHIT. Some of you will think I am full of shit on this, but it happened. I worked there for 3 years. Made 9 an hour plus tips when I bused.

Point is, DO NOT think these jobs will support you. They are STARTER jobs, no more. If you choose UNwisely in life, and know these WILL be the kind of jobs you work the rest of your life, or if you just give up, then you are placed in a position where you will have to PROVE your worth as an employee to get promoted to managerial positions to make more.

OR, we can all strive to be better socialists comrades and fight for workers rights to make more than they are worth in the market, in the name of equality of outcome for all! Onward comrades! DOWN with the rich, lazy bourgeoisie bastards who don't DESERVE to own these restaurants! What did THEY do to deserve them? The WORKERS should own them, eh comrades! The unskilled, uneducated workers who dropped out of school at 17 will run them better I say, eh comrades???


Also, I must say, if they start paying these people 16-17 bucks an hour at 17 years old, that is FRIGHTFULLY close to what I make as a goddamned teacher. A teacher with quite a lot of college hours, training, and experience. Is that the world we will now live in?

And yeah, just subsidize these people? Really? Boy, THATS the gravy train....Hell, lets just subsidize EVERYTHING. Car dealerships during the winter when its harder to make money....Tree trimmers in the winter, snow shovelers in the summer.....Who else should we subsidize? Oh, and won't that mean that uncle sam is now going to have a say in these employment fields? Uncle sugar doesn't just GIVE OUT MONEY with no strings guys. You know that Gonzo. So, what do we have NOW when we start the subsidizing gravy train? Gov subsidizes more and more, controls more and more, and we have.........anyone want to take a guess? Class? Bueller? Bueller?

Would one of you raving jackaloons please quote where I endorsed welfare or a raise in minimum wage or losing your tax return money or making a career out of burger flipping? In any way shape or form? Anywhere in this thread?

When you do that you can posit the arguments you're putting forth.

None of that is what I've proposed at all. Re-read what I posted, wipe the foam off your mouths and get back to me.

[l921428x]

I think the answer, clearly, is to abolish the minimum wage. If workers in Haiti can make it on $2/day, then, by God, so can the poor here.

Suck it up, America!

good for you! i agree. watched a guy 16 hrs ago sweep a 3000 sq ft area with a 8" broom for 9.35/hr. there was a 30" broom available. we needed the support he could have provided.

[l921428x]

I'll just leave this here:

http://www.nelp.org/page/-/rtmw/uploads/Real-Value-Minimum-Wage-NELP.jpg

does any of this have to do with this countrys energy cost? since we, some how will not produce any?

[Ruskiegunlover]

Gonzo, you are talking about using AMERICAN TAX PAYER DOLLERS to subsidize people. Whether its jobs, housing, whatever. Its wrong. The gov should not be in the business of 'picking winners'....As in giving tax subsidies to wendys but not mcdonalds.......So would all fast food places get subsidized? Would all housing be subsidized? And why should I be taxed, likely MORE, to pay for this? Hey, I DESERVE an inground pool behind my house....I should be subsidized. How DARE you tell me I don't deserve it. We are just trying to equalize everyone right? The guy down the street put in an inground pool, mind you entirely on his own but thats besides the point. I DERSVE one just as much as HIM. So you Gonzo, will subsidize it, as we are all equal right? We all should have our standard of living raised right?

[Richard Simmons]

Would one of you raving jackaloons please quote where I endorsed welfare or a raise in minimum wage or losing your tax return money or making a career out of burger flipping? In any way shape or form? Anywhere in this thread?

When you do that you can posit the arguments you're putting forth.

None of that is what I've proposed at all. Re-read what I posted, wipe the foam off your mouths and get back to me.

Why are you attacking anyone? This is a common trait with you and especially as a moderator is shouldn't be. I've done nothing but ask you how your proposed system would be any different from the current welfare system we have now. If you can't respond in a civil manner then don't.

[ltorlo64]

Gonzo, you are talking about using AMERICAN TAX PAYER DOLLERS to subsidize people. Whether its jobs, housing, whatever. Its wrong. The gov should not be in the business of 'picking winners'....As in giving tax subsidies to wendys but not mcdonalds.......So would all fast food places get subsidized? Would all housing be subsidized? And why should I be taxed, likely MORE, to pay for this? Hey, I DESERVE an inground pool behind my house....I should be subsidized. How DARE you tell me I don't deserve it. We are just trying to equalize everyone right? The guy down the street put in an inground pool, mind you entirely on his own but thats besides the point. I DERSVE one just as much as HIM. So you Gonzo, will subsidize it, as we are all equal right? We all should have our standard of living raised right?

Two things about subsidized housing. First, when I first got married we lived in subsidized housing. Didn't realize it at first because I made to much to be subsidized. A certain portion of the apartment complex was subidized. The people who lived in the subsidized part were scary. The slept during the day and kept us awake at night drinking and playing music too loud. Military housing is turing into subsidized housing using the Public/Private Venture initiative. If the military cannot provide enough tenants in the housing, the unfilled units go become subidized housing. You can tell the difference between the houses where the military families live and the ones that are being used as subsidized housing, and it is not by the military stickers on the cars in the driveways. Because the people no longer have to worry about how to pay for their homes it encourages the bad behaviours that prevented them from finding a home that was not subsidized in the first place.

Second point. The only housing that is not subsidized are houses that are paid for and regular apartments (not subsidized). The subsidizing comes in the tax incentives that the government gives us to buy houses. This is the point where the rubber meets the road with conservatives. We need to get rid of all subsidies and see what stuff really costs. Unfortunately, if we try to do that "conservatives" will be right at the front of the line complaining about how much more things cost. Now, if we could cut our taxes while getting rid of the subsidies, that would be great, but it would only help those who are paying taxes (federal for this discussion) and not the ~50% that do not.

[Viking350]

If they can't live on one wage earners take from a McDonald's type job, they still have options. If single, get some roommates to split the housing and utilities costs. If married, the spouse can work. Move family members in and share expenses. The job is what the job is and it pays market wages. Legislative interference always results in negative results. No one is guaranteed a good life in this country. You have to earn it. Any kind of government subsidy is just a further slip down the slope of socialism.

[Richard Simmons]

Some where along the line folks seem to have forgotten that it's not the governments job to subsidize, invest or support anyone. Best thing the government can do is get out of peoples way. Sure some will fail, mostly due to their own choices but the majority can and will do well if they have no other choice. People are like water in that they tend to follow the path of least resistance. All one has to do is look at the generations of welfare recipients to see the failure in investing in people.

[Viking350]

Some where along the line folks seem to have forgotten that it's not the governments job to subsidize, invest or support anyone. Best thing the government can do is get out of peoples way. Sure some will fail, mostly due to their own choices but the majority can and will do well if they have no other choice. People are like water in that they tend to follow the path of least resistance. All one has to do is look at the generations of welfare recipients to see the failure in investing in people.

Amen brother. We agree on all points. This line of thinking has largely disappeared from the collective mentality in the U.S. This is how our forefathers thought and it is what made our country great.

[Richard Simmons]

Amen brother. We agree on all points. This line of thinking has largely disappeared from the collective mentality in the U.S. This is how our forefathers thought and it is what made our country great.

IMHO a lot of it stems from the decline of the traditional family. It used to be that the wife stayed home and raised the children which I feel had a major positive effect. At some point it was decided that both parents had to work, children needed to go to day care, preschool, etc., and the mom went off to work. Some will argue it was a necessity but IMHO it was really about choice. If you look at the facts about the same time both parents started working we started getting credit cards which allowed impulse buying and added debt to the household. Just look at how many people by a $50,000 car when a $25,000 car would get them from point A to point B just as well. Look at how many people get a new car every 3-5 years. I drove my last pickup for 14 years before selling it and buying a demo. My plan is to drive this one for at least that long.

Know a family that has a cellphone for every person in that family regardless of age? How many people have more than one TV and how many are HUGE and cost a fortune. We bought a 55" LCD last year after watching a 31" tube TV for 12 years. My wife and I have owned exactly 4 TV's in 30 years of marriage and if lighting hadn't come through the wires and killed one we'd be on our third instead of forth.

If people quit putting material things above family I believe we'd all be better off. Buy what you can afford is my motto. The problem is when KNOWING when you can afford something and not THINKING you can afford it. Need versus want.

[silentkilla]

I think the answer, clearly, is to abolish the minimum wage. If workers in Haiti can make it on $2/day, then, by God, so can the poor here.

Suck it up, America!

seems to me you do not have any idea about the cost of living here compared to hati................. dumbass

[silentkilla]

Don't start taking this conversation in a personal direction. I'm simply asking you to specify what makes your proposed system different from what we have now. No one is working 90 hours a week and if they were they'd be bringing home a pretty good paycheck. I have no problem with not giving money to other countries but I'd rather get my tax dollars back in my paycheck than support another welfare scheme.

i beg your pardon??? sorry to say but i've been on jobs that i have put in 100+ hours in in one week buddy. i'm a pipe welder by trade and i promise you some people do put that many hours in sometimes! although i brought home like 6 grand, take home after taxes i worked my ass slam off!! thats the problem with the younger generation that i see, to busy on the playstation instead of working! its like they are scared of it or just to freaking lazy!!

[Dr. Gonzo GED]

Some where along the line folks seem to have forgotten that it's not the governments job to subsidize, invest or support anyone.

And I answered your question.

The investment would be in industry, not "people". The benefit would be lowered cost of goods and services for people. (We already do this with gas and tobacco) The funds would come from diverting money we are currently funneling to our enemies abroad.

That was my plan.

Were you get "welfare check" out of that is a complete mystery to me.

Why you feel "attacked" by that is also a mystery.

Go back, read what I wrote, and get back to me.

[Dr. Gonzo GED]

i beg your pardon??? sorry to say but i've been on jobs that i have put in 100+ hours in in one week buddy. i'm a pipe welder by trade and i promise you some people do put that many hours in sometimes! although i brought home like 6 grand, take home after taxes i worked my ass slam off!! !
The difference is you worked all those hours at one job, earning overtime on what is already a very good wage.

Unskilled workers pull that kind of week at three minimum wage jobs so they do not earn overtime or benefits. They barely squeak by and have no time or money to invest in earning a valuable skill like yours.

Simmons doesn't get this because he lives in an Ivory tower (ask him).

What really boggles my mind here is why some of the posters on this board are so dead set on keeping the lower class as low as possible. They say "get a trade, get a better job" yet insist on keeping poor peoples nose so far down on the grindstone that they have no real opportunities. And "student loans" are not the answer. The student loan market is where predatory lending moved to when the housing market failed.

I say "we need to lower the cost of living so these people can afford tuition and have time to learn a better trade" and they start screaming "WELFARE, COMMUNISM!!!!".

Well folks, what do you think tax dollars are for if not re-investing in America? Because right now your paying for weapons to be sent to people who want to kill us. You, your friends and your family. How does that benefit us? How does that improve the quality of life for real working class Americans? Remember, these aren't "welfare rats" were talking about. These are workers. Earners. People who have a crap job but a job none the less.

I propose that blood money be better spent taking a chunk out of the cost of living in what amounts to a "reverse sales tax".

But apparently that's too radical for some here. They would rather watch the whole country decline into a third world shit hole where no one but Richard Simmons can afford a loaf of bread.

[silentkilla]

believe it or not if they did weed like cigarettes and legalize the shit recreationally like beer and whiskey they would see a difference in money in this country and at the same time shut some of the cartel bullshit down. don't know about you all but i've been around both and would much rather be around someone that smokes instead of drinks.

[Dr. Gonzo GED]

believe it or not if they did weed like cigarettes and legalize the shit recreationally like beer and whiskey they would see a difference in money in this country and at the same time shut some of the cartel bullshit down. don't know about you all but i've been around both and would much rather be around someone that smokes instead of drinks.
I'm with ya' on that.

Doritos stock would surpass Apple overnight too. ;)

[silentkilla]

I'm with ya' on that.

Doritos stock would surpass Apple overnight too. ;)

LMAO!!!! it sure would! man in my line of work when someone green hires in some want to learn and some do not. the ones that want to do something with there life pick it up a notch and try real hard. i've seen some guys spend there whole breaks and lunch practicing welding and some even stay after work to try and learn the trade. but the ones who don't give a shit always seem to pull the ones that do care down with them in a way. don't understand it but it happens. i've seen some good men try there ass off to do what we do and never give up then get laid off while the motherfucker that does nothing keep there job. pisses me off !!

[Ruskiegunlover]

And gonzo, YOU TOO are wrong. Student loans ARE the answer for some people. 1/6th og my college ed was paid cash by my mother. Of the remaining 5/6ths, 2/6ths was paid cash by ME and 3/6ths was student loans, which I am paying off. Nothing wrong with borrowing for your future at all, as long as you are responsible for it. And again, a $7 hour mcdonalds worker can do 35 a week, take out loans for 12 hours a semester, and do a 4 year degree in 5-6 years. LOTS do it this way. Or, like I did, work in an industry for several years making DAMNED good money to pay cash. I worked for cessna for 3 years, paying cash for a huge chunk of it. But, not very many people anymore have the work ethic or values to work 65-70 hours a week, plus take college classes. I did 15 a semester, and spent over 1 full year working and going to school 20 hours a day. I OCCASSIONALLY had sundays off, but usually maybe 1 a month. It sucked. But I made it, and learned a hell of a lot about myself.

Maybe the biggest issue here is the entitlement mentality so prevelant in our country, spurred on by the lagcsocialist shits who have torn down the great things that used to make our country the best. Instead of telling people to work their asses off, that the dream was possible for EVERYONE (which it still is), they instilled in a massive section of people the idea that they were victims, always WOULD BE victims, and that they too deserved everything. That they would get everything, as long as they voted a certian way. See the fast food workers walking off the job, feeling entitled to a better life without putting in ANYTHING to get it. And I worked fast food in high school for several years. I know the types....

[Dr. Gonzo GED]

People would still have to "work their asses off" to get up from the lowest rung.

I'm just proposing we get the rent and bills lowered a couple hundred bucks a month so they can invest that money in a college credit or two.

If they don't, they're still minimum wage slobs at McDonald's for the duration.

How is that "wrong"?

You think I never worked 60 hours at far less than what these fry cooks are earning today while going to school full time (expected to invest 30 hours a week in classes and 120 hours a week in home work, that is not an exaggeration)?

None of you are actually reading what I wrote. You keep arguing against things I have not proposed at all.

[Ruskiegunlover]

Hey, I like and respect you Gonzo. You crack me up, and I find myself agreeing with you most of the time. Here, I am respectfully disagreeing with you.


Remember when they dumped rabbit ears on tv's? And, many people moaned about how they could not afford to buy the digital box to keep using their tv? So uncle sugar stepped in to subsidize them, and the digi box company just raised the price to match it? Gov subsidies only cause price increases.....I don't see them EVER working.....So you then might argue for price fixes....Really? In a supposedly free market? THATS a command style economy in my opinion, or leaning towards one.

[Richard Simmons]

i beg your pardon??? sorry to say but i've been on jobs that i have put in 100+ hours in in one week buddy. i'm a pipe welder by trade and i promise you some people do put that many hours in sometimes! although i brought home like 6 grand, take home after taxes i worked my ass slam off!! thats the problem with the younger generation that i see, to busy on the playstation instead of working! its like they are scared of it or just to freaking lazy!!

I've also worked similar hours but as you said it's a "sometimes" thing and not the norm for the vast majority of workers. I shouldn't have said "no one" but perhaps, very few.

[Richard Simmons]

Simmons doesn't get this because he lives in an Ivory tower (ask him).


No need to attack me for my statements. Make your point and responses without personal attacks please.

I've worked for minimum wage or less. Worked construction with no vacation, no overtime and no benefits. Spent years as an OTR truck driver, gone Monday thru Friday of most every week. I've gotten to where I am today by hard work, a fair amount of luck and personal responsibility and without the benefit of more than a high school diploma but then again it was my choice. No one held my hand or gave me anything and some of the choices my wife and I chose to make had no guarantee we'd be better off but we took chances, risks and opportunities as we could make them or as they became available.

[silentkilla]

No need to attack me for my statements. Make your point and responses without personal attacks please.

I've worked for minimum wage or less. Worked construction with no vacation, no overtime and no benefits. Spent years as an OTR truck driver, gone Monday thru Friday of most every week. I've gotten to where I am today by hard work, a fair amount of luck and personal responsibility and without the benefit of more than a high school diploma but then again it was my choice. No one held my hand or gave me anything and some of the choices my wife and I chose to make had no guarantee we'd be better off but we took chances, risks and opportunities as we could make them or as they became available.

did you hit the loto or something richard?? lol

[Richard Simmons]

did you hit the loto or something richard?? lol

Nope, though I've meant to buy a ticket from time to time.

[Dr. Gonzo GED]

Hey, I like and respect you Gonzo. You crack me up, and I find myself agreeing with you most of the time. Here, I am respectfully disagreeing with you.


Remember when they dumped rabbit ears on tv's? And, many people moaned about how they could not afford to buy the digital box to keep using their tv? So uncle sugar stepped in to subsidize them, and the digi box company just raised the price to match it? Gov subsidies only cause price increases.....I don't see them EVER working.....So you then might argue for price fixes....Really? In a supposedly free market? THATS a command style economy in my opinion, or leaning towards one.

Well yeah, paying for T.V. and cell phones is some bull@#$%! In fact, those programs would be one of the money pools I'd pull from if I had my druthers.

I'm not talking about items of convenience. I'm talking about basic necessities. Housing and utilities.

I'm also not talking about paying the whole hog. You do that and there's no incentive or need to continue working.

If you want a gallon of gas you have to pay for it, right? But you don't pay $21 a gallon do you? (European prices) Do you feel like a welfare recipient when buying gasoline? How about milk? You smoke? We subsidize tobacco too.

I'm talking about treating housing, healthcare and basic utilities (water, sewer and electric) the way we treat tobacco, corn and fuel. You still have to work and purchase those things but they cost a lot less than they would at true market value.

Right now our tax dollars invested in those subsidies go right to bloodless corporations who use the windfall to buy more political favors and greater subsidies benefiting themselves above all.

I'm talking about subsidising landlords and utility providers. This would benefit you as well. It would benefit everyone across the board. It would also give the working poor a little breathing room to seek an improvement in their station.

This is not a "radical" idea either. This is what most of the nicer, low crime rate, no homeless people, high standard of living countries do.

[silentkilla]

Nope, though I've meant to buy a ticket from time to time.

think its up to like 250 mil right now! that sure would be nice huh?

[Dr. Gonzo GED]

No need to attack me for my statements. Make your point and responses without personal attacks please.

Sorry, man.

The "no one works 90 hour weeks" thing was just a little out of touch with the reality faced by people who didn't have your opportunities. (and I got you confused with Mark Ducati in my head. Sorry about that. No seriously, that's messed up! :lool:)

I get it that you worked you ass off the get where you are but you're one of the lucky ones.

What happens to someone living your old lifestyle who's crippled in an accident? Who has to cut back their hours to support a sick family member? Who gets cancer? Who's identity is stolen and their credit ruined?

You made it. Many struggle just as hard and don't or literally die trying.

There is no reason that in the richest, fattest, most developed country on the planet that your average citizen should have to grind so hard and sacrifice so much just to live above the "government cheese" level.

[Richard Simmons]

think its up to like 250 mil right now! that sure would be nice huh?

Funny thing is, that's when I think most about buying a ticket. Not like I couldn't use another million or two but it's the big jackpots that get me thinking about buying one.

[Viking350]

IMHO a lot of it stems from the decline of the traditional family. It used to be that the wife stayed home and raised the children which I feel had a major positive effect. At some point it was decided that both parents had to work, children needed to go to day care, preschool, etc., and the mom went off to work. Some will argue it was a necessity but IMHO it was really about choice. If you look at the facts about the same time both parents started working we started getting credit cards which allowed impulse buying and added debt to the household. Just look at how many people by a $50,000 car when a $25,000 car would get them from point A to point B just as well. Look at how many people get a new car every 3-5 years. I drove my last pickup for 14 years before selling it and buying a demo. My plan is to drive this one for at least that long.

Know a family that has a cellphone for every person in that family regardless of age? How many people have more than one TV and how many are HUGE and cost a fortune. We bought a 55" LCD last year after watching a 31" tube TV for 12 years. My wife and I have owned exactly 4 TV's in 30 years of marriage and if lighting hadn't come through the wires and killed one we'd be on our third instead of forth.

If people quit putting material things above family I believe we'd all be better off. Buy what you can afford is my motto. The problem is when KNOWING when you can afford something and not THINKING you can afford it. Need versus want.

Again, an awesome post. I totally agree.

[slamfire51]

People would still have to "work their asses off" to get up from the lowest rung.


There is one work place that is the exact opposite.
The more you fuck off the higher up the ladder you progress. Ask any associate how well the assistant and dept managers performed as associates and got where they are today. Very few answers will be "they busted their balls" to get their position.

If you bust your ass and do excellent work, all you get is a meager yearly raise, if at all.


This odd work place is WALLY-WORLD.

Apply today...................:rotflmbao::rotflmbao:

[silentkilla]

There is one work place that is the exact opposite.
The more you fuck off the higher up the ladder you progress. Ask any associate how well the assistant and dept managers performed as associates and got where they are today. Very few answers will be "they busted their balls" to get their position.

If you bust your ass and do excellent work, all you get is a meager yearly raise, if at all.


This odd work place is WALLY-WORLD.

Apply today...................:rotflmbao::rotflmbao:

thats everywhere bud, the more you bust your ass the comfortable the company gets with you so to speak. and the people that fuck off go higher up. the thing with my work place isthe people that work beside you like past pipe fitters i've had. you do most of the work and somehow they get the credit for it and so on and so on. fucked up but thats how it is.

[Richard Simmons]

Sorry, man.

The "no one works 90 hour weeks" thing was just a little out of touch with the reality faced by people who didn't have your opportunities. (and I got you confused with Mark Ducati in my head. Sorry about that. No seriously, that's messed up! :lool:)

I get it that you worked you ass off the get where you are but you're one of the lucky ones.

What happens to someone living your old lifestyle who's crippled in an accident? Who has to cut back their hours to support a sick family member? Who gets cancer? Who's identity is stolen and their credit ruined?

You made it. Many struggle just as hard and don't or literally die trying.

There is no reason that in the richest, fattest, most developed country on the planet that your average citizen should have to grind so hard and sacrifice so much just to live above the "government cheese" level.

Mark Ducati? What do you have against Mark?

What happens to someone who dies without any life insurance or their car breaks down and they can't afford to fix it and loose their job? Sorry but there are no guarantees in life. Bad things happen to good people and good things happen to bad people. Kind of the way it's been since man walked upright. Life is a struggle in one way or another and always will be. There is no utopia where everything works out for the best for everyone all the time. You can't save everyone from misfortune, bad decisions, fate, etc., which is why family is so important and no government, no matter how much money it has can take the place of family or right every wrong.

[FunkyPertwee]

After state assistance, technical college in my state costs only $800 per semester for full time. Unless you made the mistake of having children before becoming financially dependent, then there isn't much excuse for not making something of yourself.

Unfortunately the tech school I went to had a huge dropout rate during the first few months of classes. As it turns out, when you subsidize something to reduce its cost, people take it for granted and waste their opportunity.

I wasted my opportunity the first time. Flunked out and lost my state funding. A few years later i went back, paying full price in cash. It took me almost four years to get an associates because of my need to work at the same time. I took enough extra classes to raise my GPA to the point that I can get funding for my bachelors degree, which Ill be starting on in three weeks, pending my loan status.

[Dr. Gonzo GED]

Mark Ducati? What do you have against Mark?

Nothing, but he's avaristic and out of touch enough to make a claim like "nobody works 90 hour weeks, and if they did they would get PAID". Which isn't true, as anyone struggling to juggle and maintain three minimum wage jobs just to make ends will tell you.


What happens to someone who dies without any life insurance or their car breaks down and they can't afford to fix it and loose their job? Sorry but there are no guarantees in life. Bad things happen to good people and good things happen to bad people. Kind of the way it's been since man walked upright. Life is a struggle in one way or another and always will be. There is no utopia where everything works out for the best for everyone all the time. You can't save everyone from misfortune, bad decisions, fate, etc., which is why family is so important and no government, no matter how much money it has can take the place of family or right every wrong.

This attitude is exactly why our country is swirling down the shit hole right now. You think you live in a vacuum? Look around yourself. Everything you complain about, violent crime, welfare leeches, ignorance, crushing poverty; these are the fruits of your social darwinist philosophy. Leaving people hung out to dry means they come to a point where they have no choice but to take drastic measures. Just as you do not guarantee their basic necessities, they cannot guarantee your safety.

Don't you get it? Every crook and goldbricker has the same exact thing as you in mind. "As long as I get mine."

You've created a jungle and now you complain of being surrounded by predators and parasites.

There are guarantees in life. I guarantee that a society which neglects it most basic needs is doomed to collapse into barbarism.

[FunkyPertwee]

I don't believe for a second that anyone in this country who victimizes another person with robbery is doing so to fulfill their most basic needs. Nobody is mugging anyone for food.

[Richard Simmons]

Nothing, but he's avaristic and out of touch enough to make a claim like "nobody works 90 hour weeks, and if they did they would get PAID". Which isn't true, as anyone struggling to juggle and maintain three minimum wage jobs just to make ends will tell you.



This attitude is exactly why our country is swirling down the shit hole right now. You think you live in a vacuum? Look around yourself. Everything you complain about, violent crime, welfare leeches, ignorance, crushing poverty; these are the fruits of your social darwinist philosophy. Leaving people hung out to dry means they come to a point where they have no choice but to take drastic measures. Just as you do not guarantee their basic necessities, they cannot guarantee your safety.

Don't you get it? Every crook and goldbricker has the same exact thing as you in mind. "As long as I get mine."

You've created a jungle and now you complain of being surrounded by predators and parasites.

There are guarantees in life. I guarantee that a society which neglects it most basic needs is doomed to collapse into barbarism.

I guess we should agree to disagree because it's apparent that what is at conflict are our core beliefs.

[Dr. Gonzo GED]

I don't believe for a second that anyone in this country who victimizes another person with robbery is doing so to fulfill their most basic needs. Nobody is mugging anyone for food.

Some are. Hunger, especialy that bone deep, malnutrition hunger will literally drive you mad.


I guess we should agree to disagree because it's apparent that what is at conflict are our core beliefs.

Fair nuff. I'd still kick you a brick of .22lr if I had one to spare and you were in need. :thumbsup: