Brass case 7.62x39 worth the extra cost?

[Aggressive Perfector]

In my opinion no. Maybe to someone who reloads, but at the moment I don't. I can't imagine the brass case 124 grain Winchester ammo being much more than marginally superior in performance to Wolf, so I don't see the point in paying $1 per round for it. I might pay a little more for brass cased .223 or 5.56 than steel cased, but that's just because steel cased ammo has a tendency to get stuck in the chamber of my AR. Any second opinions?

[imanaknut]

Agree that 7.62x39 in brass is not worth it. Most AK variants and SKS' do very well with any steel case.

As for 5.56x45, I never had problems with the old lacquer or zinc coated steel cases, and nothing but problems with the polymer coated even in my 84S-1 and SAR-3. If lacquer or zinc is not available, I have no problem using brass cases ammo in my AK variants. The better ammo makes an already amazingly accurate AK variant even more accurate.

[El Laton Caliente]

7.62x39 in brass is only worth it to reload and then if you have something that can benefit from the reloads. It needs to be an above accurate AK to start with...

[Schuetzenman]

Nope, not worth a buck a round, won't shoot that much better than the Russian import ammos. There use to be South African 7.62x39 in clear battle packs that was brass cased and copper jacketed. Very good ammo, the Mini 30 rifles really loved it. The bullets would tumble and fragment much easier than Russian rounds so I would rate it more lethal, but you can't find it on the market. You'd have to find somebody that has a stash of it put back and then get them to sell it to you.

[Krupski]

In my opinion no. Maybe to someone who reloads, but at the moment I don't. I can't imagine the brass case 124 grain Winchester ammo being much more than marginally superior in performance to Wolf, so I don't see the point in paying $1 per round for it. I might pay a little more for brass cased .223 or 5.56 than steel cased, but that's just because steel cased ammo has a tendency to get stuck in the chamber of my AR. Any second opinions?

A Kalashnikov and an SKS are both designed to use steel cased ammo. One very important thing to realize (that most people don't) is that the AK and SKS both have "excessively long" firing pins.

Unlike most rifles where the firing pin protrusion is controlled, the AK and SKS are not controlled. The firing pin can protrude 1/16 of an inch or more, depending on the individual rifle.

This is done to insure ignition reliability even if the bolt or locking lugs are worn, there is excessive headspace or the bolt head is simply gummed up with dirt.

Yeah, so what? I'm getting to it!

The AK and SKS REQUIRE Berdan primed ammo. Some people think "Berdan is corrosive and Boxer is non corrosive". Wrong.

The primers differ by DESIGN. And here is the difference:

http://www.eng.buffalo.edu/%7Ekrupski/images/primer1.jpg

The Berdan primer has a little spike in the center called the "anvil". The primer material is crushed and ignited between the firing pin indentation on one side and the anvil on the other.

The Boxer primer has a little triangular "anvil" inside, but it's thin material and collapses if hit too hard (by a firing pin).

The Berdan primer positively stops the firing pin from going too far, the Boxer does not.

Berdan primed cases are (usually) "non reloadable" because they have two small flash holes to the left and right of the anvil, rather than one large hole (making depriming fired cases difficult).

So, in the AK and SKS, using Boxer primed ammo almost guarantees punctured primers and all the smoke and damage that causes.

Since typically, brass cased ammo is Boxer primed, this is the #1 reason NOT to use in in an AK or SKS.

On the flip side, ONLY brass cased ammo should be used in an AR-15, because steel cased ammo will prematurely wear out the extractor.

You can use a chrome plated (or TiN (titanium nitride)) plated extractor to lessen this problem, but the real solution is to not use steel cased ammo in an AR-15.

Now, some people will tell you that an extractor costs less than the price difference between steel and brass cased ammo (which is true), but my personally I don't want to do something to damage my rifle, then routinely repair it in order to save a few bucks.

[Aggressive Perfector]

^Didn't know steel case would tear my extractor up, I just know I hate smashing the butt of my AR into the ground while pulling the charging handle to get my bcg moving and the case out of the chamber, but it would make sense. Steel is hard, brass isn't very hard. Extractor probably made of material too weak for use with steel case. And though replacing an extractor once in a while may be cheaper, and not difficult, the wait on 1 little bitty part to get me gunnin' again would hurt. The month of down time on my AK waiting on a butt stock almost killed me. I don't like it when my guns have down time outside of basic maintenance. Thanks for confirming my thoughts and educating me further guys, always appreciated. :)

[Schuetzenman]

^Didn't know steel case would tear my extractor up, I just know I hate smashing the butt of my AR into the ground while pulling the charging handle to get my bcg moving and the case out of the chamber, but it would make sense. Steel is hard, brass isn't very hard. Extractor probably made of material too weak for use with steel case. And though replacing an extractor once in a while may be cheaper, and not difficult, the wait on 1 little bitty part to get me gunnin' again would hurt. The month of down time on my AK waiting on a butt stock almost killed me. I don't like it when my guns have down time outside of basic maintenance. Thanks for confirming my thoughts and educating me further guys, always appreciated. :)

Krup always harps on the steel cased ammo tearing up an AR extractor thing. As you mentioned it's not difficult to replace and frankly it isn't a fortune either. The Russian steel cased ammo is crap for accuracy and it does accelerate barrel wear as well. Even with all that true about extra wear it is so much cheaper you can afford to stock every part that the shit ammo will wear out and still have 100's less in ammo cost for just general blasting down range.

My personal position is I like accuracy and as such I don't shoot crappy Russian ammo, I'm not into blasting dirt on a hillside. I am into accuracy. I reload to get it, and I get it for the same or less cost than that of the Russian ammo using quality components in a Dillon 550B progressive loader.

[Krupski]

^Didn't know steel case would tear my extractor up...

Well, if you rub steel and brass together, obviously you know the brass wears because it's softer. If you rub steel on steel, both wear the same amount.

So you can see that a steel extractor on a steel shell casing will wear faster than steel on brass.

If you use a hard chrome plated extractor, you solve the problem because the chrome is harder than even the steel case.

I used to shoot at an indoor range and the rental AR-15 rifles constantly needed new extractors (because customers were bringing and using their own [Wolf steel] ammo).

The range owner eventually required customers to use brass cased ammo or buy it in the store (i.e. he forbid steel cased ammo). Since he saved and sold all the brass he collected, the policy also made him extra money (no worthless steel in the pile).

A "month of downtime almost killed you"? Geez! I'm in New York where we have that stupid "Safe" act. Everything I own was made illegal by the idiot governor's signature, so I haven't been out to the range ONCE this year yet. Think how I feel!

And I just built a "retro" Vietnam style AR-15 for my son a few weeks ago.... he's itching to try it but we can't until the stupid law is repealed.

http://www.gunsnet.net/photopost/data/500/medium/brians_ar15_02_.jpg

Supposedly the case is being decided the middle of this month... maybe I'll get to go shooting at least once before the snow......

[Krupski]

Krup always harps on the steel cased ammo tearing up an AR extractor thing. As you mentioned it's not difficult to replace and frankly it isn't a fortune either. The Russian steel cased ammo is crap for accuracy and it does accelerate barrel wear as well. Even with all that true about extra wear it is so much cheaper you can afford to stock every part that the shit ammo will wear out and still have 100's less in ammo cost for just general blasting down range.

My personal position is I like accuracy and as such I don't shoot crappy Russian ammo, I'm not into blasting dirt on a hillside. I am into accuracy. I reload to get it, and I get it for the same or less cost than that of the Russian ammo using quality components in a Dillon 550B progressive loader.

Why is the steel cased ammo bad for barrels? The bullet is steel filled with lead, but it's coated with copper to protect the barrel. Is the copper not thick enough? Or is there some other reason it's bad for the barrel?

As far as "less accuracy", why would that be?

I know that I could just stock a few spare extractors and routinely replace them after "X" number of rounds fired or inspect them regularly, but it would just bug me that it wears a little more each time.

Maybe it's an "obsessive" thing with me. For example, I can't stand to use a laptop computer because the ticking clock (battery wearing down) drives me crazy and I can't think. All I do is worry "got 1 hour left... got 30 minutes left.... got 10 minutes left..."

I guess I'm nuts, but stuff like that bothers me greatly.

[Schuetzenman]

Why is the steel cased ammo bad for barrels? The bullet is steel filled with lead, but it's coated with copper to protect the barrel. Is the copper not thick enough? Or is there some other reason it's bad for the barrel?

As far as "less accuracy", why would that be?

I know that I could just stock a few spare extractors and routinely replace them after "X" number of rounds fired or inspect them regularly, but it would just bug me that it wears a little more each time.

Maybe it's an "obsessive" thing with me. For example, I can't stand to use a laptop computer because the ticking clock (battery wearing down) drives me crazy and I can't think. All I do is worry "got 1 hour left... got 30 minutes left.... got 10 minutes left..."

I guess I'm nuts, but stuff like that bothers me greatly.

You don't really shoot guns do you? The Russian ammo is low pressure, the bullets are often not round, the bullet weights and powder charge weights are not consistent either. It does seem to leave behind much more soot, carbon, residue than good Us made ammo. Trying to recall the company that did a comparison test of Federal and other US brands of ammo vs. Russian .223 ammo. Barrel wear was far greater and accuracy way less. Accuracy of the Russian ammo was less in the beginning of the tests and way worse at the end.

On steel rubbing against steel they do NOT always wear equally. It depends on the grades of steel and their hardness levels. Brass can be has hard as 27 Rockwell C if work hardened. Steels can be as soft as 2 on the Rockwell C scale in hardness. You rub a Steel that is 2 against brass that is 25 to 27 RC, I guarantee that the Steel will lose and the brass will win.

My point is broad brush simplistic answers do not really address reality in all cases, (no pun intended). :D

[Aggressive Perfector]

So... As long as I'm finding reasonably priced brass cased ammo I'll stick with it. I shoot 5.56 9 out of 10 times in my AR anyways. So either way when I shoot .223 I'm off.

[Krupski]

You don't really shoot guns do you?

No, I actually only shoot Airsoft and try to convince everyone that they are real. :dizzy:


Here's the kick-ass rifle I shoot at the range:
http://images.hobbytron.com/SD-UM-603-lg.jpg

I even converted it to full auto by stuffing a wad of bubblegum on the disconnector!








Seriously though... I have found virtually no difference in the way XM193 shoots vs Wolf except that the Wolf is dirtier (soot all over the place) and it smells like an old catbox.

Other than that, I perceive no difference in power or accuracy.

I HAVE, however, run into a batch of Wolf X39 that seemed to be only 1/2 loaded. It sounded and felt weak, and compared to an older batch of ammo (Golden Tiger), the GT was a LOT more powerful.

The batch was so weak I noticed it right away.

Never noticed anything wrong with 5.56x45 in Wolf (back when I used it) other than the ammonia smell and the soot.

[Krupski]

On steel rubbing against steel they do NOT always wear equally. It depends on the grades of steel and their hardness levels. Brass can be has hard as 27 Rockwell C if work hardened.

Was this solely for the sake of arguing?

The brass used in shell casings is not hardened. In fact, the necks are usually ANNEALED (pointless, but hey what the hell?) What's your point?

And, as far as "abrasion", you can use a slurry of diamond dust and a SOFT COPPER tube to drill GLASS (and obviously glass is harder than copper).

The bottom line is no knowledge of chemistry, metallurgy or anything else is required to VISUALLY SEE an extractor with the edge worn off and no longer working. And I've seen just that after steel cases were used in an AR-15.

[Schuetzenman]

And it cost $1,000 bucks to replace it right?

Let me see ... ok at Brownells the cost of AR extractors run from a low of $15.71 by DPMS to a high of $59.99 by Smith Enterprises. You really think you can't afford to pay for the new extractor given the savings of Russian crap ammo over brass cased ammo? That is my point extractors are cheap and don't require a degree in rocket science to install them.