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View Full Version : I had a KB today!



NAPOTS
03-02-2014, 11:01 PM
Well, to be very honest and upfront about this, I am ashamed and embarrassed to be posting this here. I would almost rather about post some drunken homoerotic summer camp experience in the roadhouse

I shot my first IDPA match today. I think for a beginner I did really well, I am sure my times weren't great but I was very very happy with my accuracy. My pistol was running great too. On the last stage on my 3rd or fourth round POOOF!

I was a little stunned and confused at what had happened, the RO issued a STOP command. I noticed that the slide was locked back which was strange because I knew that I didn't shoot that many rounds. I seem to recall that there was a lot more smoke than usual. my hands stung like someone slapped them very hard. When I looked at them I had a very interesting tiger stripe powder burn pattern on them. The RO and I took my pistol over to the safe are and I field stripped it and we inspected it. Luckily there was no apparent damage, no bulge of the barrel, no bulge in the side, no crack in the frame, no crack in the slide. When the KB happened the mag got kicked out of the bottom of the magwell. The mag looked ok too. I actually got a reshoot of that stage and did very well considering I was still stunned and my hands hurt.

When I got home I detail stripped the pistol and gave it a thorough inspection and didn't find any signs of damage. I am also pretty sure that my G10 grips saved me a couple of hands full of splinters.

So how do I think this happened? I am pretty sure it was a double charge, hence the embarrassment. I feel like I am very careful when I load, I weight around every 10th-15th powder throw as I go, I visually inspect each case before I seat a bullet. A double charge is the number one thing I am worried about when I reload but i seems one snuck through so I am not careful enough. Luckily only my pride was damaged but this is a lesson to me to be extra vigilant. I am not sure how this happened but I will damn sure be extra cautious in the future and I may switch to a powder that requires a larger volume.

I would rather have taken some stitches than blown up my gun. Aside from the cost of replacing it, I really do like that pistol.

So sorry guys, I feel like a real dumbass here. The only reason I am telling all you about it is to drive the point home WATCH YOUR F*CKING POWDER THROW! and hopefully save someone else some skin and a gun. OH yea, also, WEAR YOUR F*CKING SAFETY GLASSES. Sometimes guns go boom.

You all might find these pictures interesting.
http://i1084.photobucket.com/albums/j418/Napots/IMAG0267_zps2edb7358.jpg (http://s1084.photobucket.com/user/Napots/media/IMAG0267_zps2edb7358.jpg.html)
http://i1084.photobucket.com/albums/j418/Napots/IMAG0268_zpsd390f0f1.jpg (http://s1084.photobucket.com/user/Napots/media/IMAG0268_zpsd390f0f1.jpg.html)

Its obvious what happened to the round that ruptured. I am assuming that the other round was the next one in the mag. The bullet is pushed was back into the case, there is some flame cutting on the case mouth. I am lucky that it didn't go off or it would have probably destroyed the mag.

imanaknut
03-02-2014, 11:36 PM
Stuff happens, you are just lucky you got out with some temporary tingling in your hand, and a bruised ego. If it was possibly a weak shell, not much of an overcharge could do it, and if there was an unseen crack, a normal charge could do that, so maybe you shouldn't bruise your ego too bad.

Helen Keller
03-02-2014, 11:50 PM
thats what happens when:

A. the bullet is seated/pushed back too far.
B. Your gun fires out of battery.

I've done it a few times. some guns there is no indicator unless it feels like a squib. Every single time it's been 9mm.
It happens.




a double charge would have really ruined your day.

L1A1Rocker
03-02-2014, 11:52 PM
I've seen that happen a couple of times when I was shooting IPSC. It sometimes happens. Fortunately you are OK and you didn't have any equipment damage is a cherry on top. May I ask what you load on? Also, assuming it's a progressive, do you recall stepping away while reloading for a moment? The reason I ask is because the two that I've seen; both were Dillon 550s, and one recalled leaving to answer the phone. He figured when he came back he double pumped. Someone once advised that if you ever step away from a 550 to leave it with the handle down. That way when you come back to it you know exactly what's what.

NAPOTS
03-02-2014, 11:59 PM
L1a1 I am using a hornady lock n load AP press. It is auto indexing so an interruption shouldn't be an issue. I have been trying to figure out how I could have double pumped it without indexing. It will only dump powder if you raise the ram all of the way to the top and will index as soon as you raise the handle

Schuetzenman
03-03-2014, 07:13 AM
L1a1 I am using a hornady lock n load AP press. It is auto indexing so an interruption shouldn't be an issue. I have been trying to figure out how I could have double pumped it without indexing. It will only dump powder if you raise the ram all of the way to the top and will index as soon as you raise the handle

Given your presses auto indexing I'd say it is impossible for you to double charge it. You MAY NOT have double charged at all. Cases do fail at times. The case you post shows that it blew out on the bottom of the case near the feed ramp where it is not that well supported. It looks to be .45 ACP but I don't recall you stating the chambering. What band of case is it? I also suspect that it wasn't a +P rated case. Those are a lot thicker in the case head and web and resist this much better than a standard case, chambering is irrelevant. +P cases are tougher.

You haven't mentioned the powder or the charge weight. I believe I said this in another reloading forum post before but here it is again. Avoid, high energy, small charge powders like Bullseye or AA 2. Pick a powder that will give you a full case volume and if you double charge you will have a mess as powder is going to come spilling out of the case when the ram comes down. AA7 or 5 would probably give you that effect.

Aggressive Perfector
03-03-2014, 08:21 AM
Whatever the cause, glad you're not seriously injured and your gun survived without so much as a scratch.

mrkalashnikov
03-03-2014, 08:35 AM
Whatever the cause, glad you're not seriously injured and your gun survived without so much as a scratch.
+1

Coulda been a lot worse.

NAPOTS
03-03-2014, 08:38 AM
Given your presses auto indexing I'd say it is impossible for you to double charge it. You MAY NOT have double charged at all. Cases do fail at times. The case you post shows that it blew out on the bottom of the case near the feed ramp where it is not that well supported. It looks to be .45 ACP but I don't recall you stating the chambering. What band of case is it? I also suspect that it wasn't a +P rated case. Those are a lot thicker in the case head and web and resist this much better than a standard case, chambering is irrelevant. +P cases are tougher.

You haven't mentioned the powder or the charge weight. I believe I said this in another reloading forum post before but here it is again. Avoid, high energy, small charge powders like Bullseye or AA 2. Pick a powder that will give you a full case volume and if you double charge you will have a mess as powder is going to come spilling out of the case when the ram comes down. AA7 or 5 would probably give you that effect.


Caliber is .45 acp, brass was winchester, probably from white box as I shoot a lot of that. Load is 5.0gr of bullseye. I will heed your advice on the powder and switch to something that requires more volume.

Richard Simmons
03-03-2014, 08:40 AM
Glad you weren't hurt. What gun were you shooting?

NAPOTS
03-03-2014, 08:48 AM
Glad you weren't hurt. What gun were you shooting?

My Wilson Combat CQB 1911, its the one on the bottom

http://i1084.photobucket.com/albums/j418/Napots/IMG_0278.jpg (http://s1084.photobucket.com/user/Napots/media/IMG_0278.jpg.html)

Its a valuable piece so I would have been destraught if it was destroyed and I really like the pistol. If it was sitting next to a briefcase full of money in a burning building I'd be more inclined to grab the pistol.

Helen Keller
03-03-2014, 09:44 AM
what bullet weight/type ?

ltorlo64
03-03-2014, 10:11 AM
Whatever the cause, glad you're not seriously injured and your gun survived without so much as a scratch.

Have to agree with this, glad you are alright.

Warlord
03-03-2014, 10:16 AM
Whatever the cause, glad you're not seriously injured and your gun survived without so much as a scratch.

+2 Glad you came out alright.

Darrell
03-03-2014, 11:20 AM
I am by no means an expert and this is just my opinion, but I think your bullets moved back during recoil and caused high pressure.
Did you check the crimp on any of the unfired rounds?

You've got guts for sharing this with all of us. Just remember failures are gonna happen. This helps us all to learn and be more cautious.

Glad you're okay and thank you...

Darrell
03-03-2014, 11:21 AM
Also, those are some fine looking pistols.

Schuetzenman
03-04-2014, 07:17 AM
My Wilson Combat CQB 1911, its the one on the bottom

http://i1084.photobucket.com/albums/j418/Napots/IMG_0278.jpg (http://s1084.photobucket.com/user/Napots/media/IMG_0278.jpg.html).

Nice, very very nice!

O.S.O.K.
03-05-2014, 01:22 PM
I am by no means an expert and this is just my opinion, but I think your bullets moved back during recoil and caused high pressure.
Did you check the crimp on any of the unfired rounds?

You've got guts for sharing this with all of us. Just remember failures are gonna happen. This helps us all to learn and be more cautious.

Glad you're okay and thank you...

My thought too - definitely check your crimps... just glad you and your pistol are OK!

abpt1
03-06-2014, 02:13 PM
Damn that sucks! Ive had one KB back in 94/95 with a Gen1 G23 with Factory fed 180 HS the mag popped out and it burn my hand where the slide meets the frame and turned my hand numb like I hit a tree with a baseball bat (I traded it in where i bought it for the same price i paid a thousand rounds later).........! I also had a issue with my .454casul shaving the heavy rounds and a piece of copper cut the side of my head open "SAFETY GLASSES !" "SAFETY GLASSES !" "SAFETY GLASSES !"

Helen Keller
03-06-2014, 02:22 PM
"SAFETY GLASSES !" "SAFETY GLASSES !" "SAFETY GLASSES !

+1

Normal/reading glasses dont count.

NAPOTS
03-07-2014, 10:49 PM
Well I pulled the bullets out of the last ~25 rounds from that batch. The charges all weighed between 4.9 and 5.1 grains. Doesn't mean it wasn't a double charge but I am hoping if it was it is a one off!

If it was a bad piece of brass I hope I never find another one, that sucked.

abpt1
03-10-2014, 07:06 AM
Well I pulled the bullets out of the last ~25 rounds from that batch. The charges all weighed between 4.9 and 5.1 grains. Doesn't mean it wasn't a double charge but I am hoping if it was it is a one off!

If it was a bad piece of brass I hope I never find another one, that sucked.

Do you shoot .45acp out of a glock ? I have found that most brass shot from factory glocks has glock brass bulge. Even though some think its only .40cal I have found it happens in other calibers. FL sizing die can help.

NAPOTS
03-10-2014, 07:50 AM
Do you shoot .45acp out of a glock ? I have found that most brass shot from factory glocks has glock brass bulge. Even though some think its only .40cal I have found it happens in other calibers. FL sizing die can help.

I don't own a glock but I do pick up a lot of brass at the range. It was a winchester case which I know is very common but a lot of my brass is winchester so odds are it was one of mine. If it was it was probably only fired a couple of times.

abpt1
03-10-2014, 09:59 AM
I don't own a glock but I do pick up a lot of brass at the range. It was a winchester case which I know is very common but a lot of my brass is winchester so odds are it was one of mine. If it was it was probably only fired a couple of times.

Check your brass while you load it, you can feel it some times but cant see it. I just toss it unless its .40 then I run it through this http://www.redding-reloading.com/new-products/3-g-rx-push-thru-base-sizing-die .

http://www.christiangunowner.com/images/2cases.jpg

https://www.google.com/search?q=glock+bulge&client=firefox-a&hs=lG3&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&channel=sb&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ei=ItIdU_eMLez70wG84oGIBA&ved=0CCkQsAQ&biw=1280&bih=852#facrc=_&imgrc=a7h1J0TdpXz-PM%253A%3BQvlvIC9DoP6jZM%3Bhttp%253A%252F%252Fwww. christiangunowner.com%252Fimages%252F2cases.jpg%3B http%253A%252F%252Fwww.christiangunowner.com%252Fg lockreviews.html%3B600%3B486

NAPOTS
03-16-2014, 10:51 PM
I am by no means an expert and this is just my opinion, but I think your bullets moved back during recoil and caused high pressure.
Did you check the crimp on any of the unfired rounds?

You've got guts for sharing this with all of us. Just remember failures are gonna happen. This helps us all to learn and be more cautious.

Glad you're okay and thank you...

I now think that this is the most likely scenario. I was reloading some more rounds this weekend and pushed a few against my work bench. I was able to push the bullet into the case relatively easy on a couple of them. I think that there may be some brass on the shorter side or thinner side which is not gripping the bullet firmly at the amount I was crimping. Well this got me a little scared so I re-crimped about 1200 of my reloads to .465 at the case mouth. I was crimping to .470. This seems to hold the bullet much more firmly. What kinda irks me is I haven't read a good description of what constitutes an appropriate crimp in any of my reloading manuals. They kind of gloss over the subject. As much as that KB sucked I'd rather crimp on the heavy side from now on. A round must have caught the feedramp at an off angle and got pushed into the case.

NAPOTS
05-18-2014, 11:48 AM
Well a bit of an update for you guys. I had been having occasional FTFs with this pistol where the round would partially seat in the chamber and get stuck, the slide would sometimes close fully when I released that mag. It usually felt too stuck to rack the slide with the mag in. A couple of weeks ago I took it out to the range and it felt like it was having trouble feeding. I could feel the slide struggling to close when it was cycling. about halfway through my shooting session I had an FTF as I described when when I cleared the round the bullet was pushed back into the case considerable. When I got it home I could see marks on the feed ramp where the bullets where hitting. I think they were hitting the feed ramp at an off angle and entering the chamber too steep and getting jammed between the chamber and extractor. I picked up some different mags (Chip McCormick power mags) and used those at my last match. It seemed to feed much better and I didn't have any malfunctions. I think my gun may just not like the mags I was using. The feed lip geometry is different between the Wilson Combats and the CMC power mags.

I am pretty certain that the KB as caused by a round not feeding right and getting pushed back into the case.

ltorlo64
05-18-2014, 01:38 PM
Good on you for continuing to look for the problem till a reasonable one was found. Glad it is easy to fix.

El Laton Caliente
05-18-2014, 01:59 PM
Caliber is .45 acp, brass was winchester, probably from white box as I shoot a lot of that. Load is 5.0gr of bullseye. I will heed your advice on the powder and switch to something that requires more volume.

Bullseye does two bad things in reduced target loads.

#1 It can shift to the front of the cartridge leaving an air gap.
#2 It can level in the cartridge exposing the primer hole to an air gap above the powder.

In both situations, the entire powder charge ignites all at the same time instead of a progressive burn like it is supposed to do. This rapid burn causes very high case pressures and results in a Kaboom.

As I remember, in larger cases when using reduced loads, the old timers used a piece of wadding on top of the powder to hold it in place. I seem to remember .357 and .45ACP/LC wads being sold for that purpose back thirty years ago. I also remember rolled paper and cotton being used. The wads hold the powder in place so you do get a progressive burn every time.

Schuetzenman
05-21-2014, 06:15 AM
Bullseye, fast burning and small charges so people get a lot of shots per pound making it attractive for plinker ammo. OTOH it is very easy to double charge it and have no clue. The position in the case thing makes me go meah ... super low possibility iMO. I've probably shot 10,000 rounds of 185 gr. and 200 gr. cast semi-wadcutter .45 ACP bullets since 1973 when I got my first 1911 handgun. I've never had a case blow out. Some of my cases have been loaded 50 times each possibly, I found myself picking up the brass and reloading those first resulting in some boxes of ammo I'd loaded to this day never having been shot.

BTW, never had to trim a .45 acp case for OAL and never had a failure to chamber as a result. The one thing I have always done is run a heavy crimp. I've had a couple rounds get jammed back in the case and not knowing the dogma of a bullet back in the case causes high pressures (doubt it) fired just fine, case didn't bulge, split or Ka-boom.

Honestly I've heard of Winchester brass failing in other calibers, seems Winchester doesn't make the best brass on the market (2000 year and forward) despite the Name Reputation. I've got 10's of thousands of Winchester and Remington cases in multiple calibers, never had one of them blow up, out or head separate. Have had case mouths crack on some of the .45 acp brass that has been reloaded a lot. Anneal the case mouths and then no cracking.

abpt1
05-22-2014, 07:28 AM
Bullseye, fast burning and small charges so people get a lot of shots per pound making it attractive for plinker ammo. OTOH it is very easy to double charge it and have no clue. The position in the case thing makes me go meah ... super low possibility iMO. I've probably shot 10,000 rounds of 185 gr. and 200 gr. cast semi-wadcutter .45 ACP bullets since 1973 when I got my first 1911 handgun. I've never had a case blow out. Some of my cases have been loaded 50 times each possibly, I found myself picking up the brass and reloading those first resulting in some boxes of ammo I'd loaded to this day never having been shot.

BTW, never had to trim a .45 acp case for OAL and never had a failure to chamber as a result. The one thing I have always done is run a heavy crimp. I've had a couple rounds get jammed back in the case and not knowing the dogma of a bullet back in the case causes high pressures (doubt it) fired just fine, case didn't bulge, split or Ka-boom.

Honestly I've heard of Winchester brass failing in other calibers, seems Winchester doesn't make the best brass on the market (2000 year and forward) despite the Name Reputation. I've got 10's of thousands of Winchester and Remington cases in multiple calibers, never had one of them blow up, out or head separate. Have had case mouths crack on some of the .45 acp brass that has been reloaded a lot. Anneal the case mouths and then no cracking.

Back 10-15 years ago Winchester had some money issues and their components seemed to go down hill.




I never use winchester components

Helen Keller
05-22-2014, 09:39 AM
i just buy starline/hornady now if I need new brass .

I've had close to 25 case failures During initial sizing/loading on various rifle calibers with new in bag winchester brass.


no issues with their .303 brass but , 25-06, 30-06 , 6.5x55, and even some 45-70 split like wet toilet paper with ease first time they went into the sizer.

abpt1
05-22-2014, 10:21 AM
i just buy starline/hornady now if I need new brass .

I've had close to 25 case failures During initial sizing/loading on various rifle calibers with new in bag winchester brass.


no issues with their .303 brass but , 25-06, 30-06 , 6.5x55, and even some 45-70 split like wet toilet paper with ease first time they went into the sizer.

look at the base of their .224 55gr fmj then compare it to Hornady 55gr fmj...

Helen Keller
05-22-2014, 10:24 AM
Wouldnt know..

I only ever buy hornady bullets unless it's bulk 9mm .

Hummer
02-04-2016, 11:17 PM
Looks to me like your feed ramp got polished too far forward and got past the web area of the case. Classic un supported case wall failure.