No Big Bang? I Thought It Was a Fact

[ltorlo64]

(Phys.org) —The universe may have existed forever, according to a new model that applies quantum correction terms to complement Einstein's theory of general relativity. The model may also account for dark matter and dark energy, resolving multiple problems at once.

Read more at: http://phys.org/news/2015-02-big-quantum-equation-universe.html#jCp

I was surprised this was not posted yesterday.

[alismith]

While it may solve certain problems with dark matter and dark energy, it presents an even bigger problem: explaining how something can exist forever with no beginning. That would mean that time has no beginning, either.

Maybe Sheldon, Leonard, and Raj can figure it out....:gruebel:

[Helen Keller]

http://i.qkme.me/35wlah.jpg

[imanaknut]

The human mind has a problem dealing with infinity. Since everything we deal with has a birth and death, we have trouble comprehending that something can be infinite, like time and space.

Point, before the Hubble Space Telescope was launched the scientists that were going to be using it said that they would use it with a completely open mind. Then they said that it was powerful enough that it could see the end of the universe. I then stood up and asked how they could be keeping an open mind if they expected to see the end of the universe? I told them that they should point the Hubble in one direction and focus out as far as they could. I told them that I doubt they would see the end of the universe, meaning that the earth was closer to the "other side". I then told them that they should then turn the telescope around 180 degrees and again focus out as far as possible, and according to them they should see the end of the universe, but won't proving that the earth is in fact the center of the universe. Everyone laughed.

A few years ago I got confirmation that they did in fact do what I asked. They focused the HST out as far as they could, the equivalent of holding a grain of sand at arms length and focusing at that point for a full month, constantly focusing further out. When all they saw at what was determined to be over 13 billion light years ago, they turned the HST around 180 degrees and did the same. They told me that I was correct in that they saw more of the same, focused out as far as possible. New as well as old galaxies over 13 billion light years out.

So either I was right and we proved that the earth is indeed at the center of the universe, or the size of the universe is infinite and we cannot see the end because there is no end to it.

Yep, people have trouble with infinity because most people's minds cannot comprehend something that isn't finite as we are.

[FunkyPertwee]

While it may solve certain problems with dark matter and dark energy, it presents an even bigger problem: explaining how something can exist forever with no beginning. That would mean that time has no beginning, either.

Maybe Sheldon, Leonard, and Raj can figure it out....:gruebel:

Time exists within the universe, not outside of it.

You can't stand outside the big bang and time it. The very passage of time is determined by events within the big bang.

The big bang it self is the beggining of time, and the end of time is when all the matter in the universe runs out of energy and all matter rests cold and motionless in space. Gravity slowly forms a single giant accretion disk from this matter, which eventually compresses into what I can only imagine is like a super "star". This "star" continues to compress itself down into a singular point which contains all of the matter of the universe plus all of the energy generated by the friction of compressing it all into a single point. When the gravity of all the universe's matter is no longer strong enough to contain the energy within itself, it will explode, sending out enough matter and energy to create a new universe. This is the beginning of time all over again.

[FunkyPertwee]

The human mind has a problem dealing with infinity. Since everything we deal with has a birth and death, we have trouble comprehending that something can be infinite, like time and space.

Point, before the Hubble Space Telescope was launched the scientists that were going to be using it said that they would use it with a completely open mind. Then they said that it was powerful enough that it could see the end of the universe. I then stood up and asked how they could be keeping an open mind if they expected to see the end of the universe? I told them that they should point the Hubble in one direction and focus out as far as they could. I told them that I doubt they would see the end of the universe, meaning that the earth was closer to the "other side". I then told them that they should then turn the telescope around 180 degrees and again focus out as far as possible, and according to them they should see the end of the universe, but won't proving that the earth is in fact the center of the universe. Everyone laughed.

A few years ago I got confirmation that they did in fact do what I asked. They focused the HST out as far as they could, the equivalent of holding a grain of sand at arms length and focusing at that point for a full month, constantly focusing further out. When all they saw at what was determined to be over 13 billion light years ago, they turned the HST around 180 degrees and did the same. They told me that I was correct in that they saw more of the same, focused out as far as possible. New as well as old galaxies over 13 billion light years out.

So either I was right and we proved that the earth is indeed at the center of the universe, or the size of the universe is infinite and we cannot see the end because there is no end to it.

Yep, people have trouble with infinity because most people's minds cannot comprehend something that isn't finite as we are.

I think its more likely that it is simply too large to see the end, also the light that you're gathering from that far away is very old light which no longer represents the current status of those far away galaxies. They are probably even further away now, as everything is moving away from a central point. AFAIK. (I'm not a scientist).

[alismith]

Time exists within the universe, not outside of it.

You can't stand outside the big bang and time it. The very passage of time is determined by events within the big bang.

The big bang it self is the beggining of time, and the end of time is when all the matter in the universe runs out of energy and all matter rests cold and motionless in space. Gravity slowly forms a single giant accretion disk from this matter, which eventually compresses into what I can only imagine is like a super "star". This "star" continues to compress itself down into a singular point which contains all of the matter of the universe plus all of the energy generated by the friction of compressing it all into a single point. When the gravity of all the universe's matter is no longer strong enough to contain the energy within itself, it will explode, sending out enough matter and energy to create a new universe. This is the beginning of time all over again.

That's what I was referring to. IF the universe had no beginning (was always here), then time, which is found only inside the universe, would have no beginning, either.

[308]

What is at the end of the universe...a wall?

[ltorlo64]

What is at the end of the universe...a wall?

It is a sign saying "Thanks for visiting. Come back soon!"

[Cypher]

What is at the end of the universe...a wall?

Maybe the end of the universe is this generations "the world is flat", LOL.

[5.56NATO]

Funny how Newton, Maxwell, Faraday, and Einstein believed. The greatest minds of their generations. Oddly enough, Tesla, whose father was a pastor, seems to have been an atheist. The problem with the darwinists is they have to get rid of a "big bang" because it denotes creation, and the echos of it heard today are echos of the voice of the almighty saying "let there be....".

[Partisan1983]

Our Galaxy is just a part of the Alpha Quadrant...never mind there is still the Delta, Gamma etc.etc. Quadrants out there waiting to be explored.

[raxar]

The big bang it self is the beggining of time, and the end of time is when all the matter in the universe runs out of energy and all matter rests cold and motionless in space. Gravity slowly forms a single giant accretion disk from this matter, which eventually compresses into what I can only imagine is like a super "star". This "star" continues to compress itself down into a singular point which contains all of the matter of the universe plus all of the energy generated by the friction of compressing it all into a single point. When the gravity of all the universe's matter is no longer strong enough to contain the energy within itself, it will explode, sending out enough matter and energy to create a new universe. This is the beginning of time all over again.

The problem with this explanation is that you say time ends, and then a little while later time starts again.

[FunkyPertwee]

The problem with this explanation is that you say time ends, and then a little while later time starts again.

This is the result of a history major trying to explain science. :)

[Schuetzenman]

The problem with this explanation is that you say time ends, and then a little while later time starts again.

Time is a human construct.

[raxar]

Time is a human construct.

How so? If things exist than time has to also exist, since by nature of existence requires time in which the things that exist exist.

[imanaknut]

Again, as finite creatures, the greater majority of human beings cannot comprehend infinity and therefore the idea of time eternal is not possible.

If the universe does in fact contract and then re-expand and someone wants to say time starts and stops with each expansion and contraction, that is only one "day" in the life of the infinite universe. And we all know that time doesn't begin anew every day just because the sun magically "comes up" over the eastern horizon and ends when it sets again in the west.


Or does it! :smiley31:

[raxar]

Again, as finite creatures, the greater majority of human beings cannot comprehend infinity and therefore the idea of time eternal is not possible.

If the universe does in fact contract and then re-expand and someone wants to say time starts and stops with each expansion and contraction, that is only one "day" in the life of the infinite universe. And we all know that time doesn't begin anew every day just because the sun magically "comes up" over the eastern horizon and ends when it sets again in the west.


Or does it! :smiley31:


The best explanation that I've ever heard is that after an exhausting struggle up the ladder of human understanding the scientist with finally reach the top only to discover that the theologian has been sitting there for millennia

[alismith]

The problem with this explanation is that you say time ends, and then a little while later time starts again.

He was describing the pulsating universe theory, just one of many different theories about our universe.

[alismith]

Time is a human construct.

I think it's more that the measure of time is the human construct. Whether we measure it, or not, time still exists. How we measure it, is the construct.

If aliens exist somewhere else in the universe, they may measure it based on different observations and calculations, but that doesn't change time itself.

Time follows its own course, regardless of who measures it, or how they measure it.

At best, one could argue that time is a universal construct, coexisting with, and being a part of, the universe, itself.

[ltorlo64]

Think, though, of the possibilities if time did not exist. If there is a "dimension" where time does not restrict or push. There would be no dying, as that would be an end, signifying time, there would be no tiredness as our muscles would not feel the effects of exertion over time. Time, whether measured or not, enslaves us, without it think of how free we would be.

[alismith]

Think, though, of the possibilities if time did not exist. If there is a "dimension" where time does not restrict or push. There would be no dying, as that would be an end, signifying time, there would be no tiredness as our muscles would not feel the effects of exertion over time. Time, whether measured or not, enslaves us, without it think of how free we would be.

Yeah, neat thought experiment. However, IF you could travel at the speed of light, time, for you, would stop. Then, you would live forever.

[5.56NATO]

How so? If things exist than time has to also exist, since by nature of existence requires time in which the things that exist exist.

In the books of Adam and Eve it says that YHWH promised a deliverer to get Adam and eve back into the garden in 5500 years after they had sinned. Before the fall there was no night, I presume the universe was stationary and there was no "time" as we know it. After the fall the universe was set in motion and Adam and Eve hated the dark of night because untill then there had been no darkness and before the fall when they could still see with their spirit rather than flesh they could see forever and had no need for daylight, however they had to spend their nights in the cave of treasures after the fall. Adam beseeched YHWH to stop the darkness and YHWH said, through his word that would become messiah 5500 years later, that if there was no night or day those 5500 years would never come and thusly no redemption. So 5500 years after the almighty created the universe messiah was born. And Adam and Eve and the rest of the saints who sat in darkness in sheol saw a great light, the light of messiah shining in sheol as he broke the iron gates of hell and let loose the captives from death and hell, returning them to paradise. So if messiah was born around 4bc, that would mean we're today around 7519 years since creation. And now you know why there is such a thing as time.

[ltorlo64]

Yeah, neat thought experiment. However, IF you could travel at the speed of light, time, for you, would stop. Then, you would live forever.

Theoretically, but we know that light travels inside of time as we know how fast light travels. Because of this it is still effected by time. We would still die, it would just take light years for someone to notice.

[ltorlo64]

In the books of Adam and Eve it says that YHWH promised a deliverer to get Adam and eve back into the garden in 5500 years after they had sinned. Before the fall there was no night, I presume the universe was stationary and there was no "time" as we know it. After the fall the universe was set in motion and Adam and Eve hated the dark of night because untill then there had been no darkness and before the fall when they could still see with their spirit rather than flesh they could see forever and had no need for daylight, however they had to spend their nights in the cave of treasures after the fall. Adam beseeched YHWH to stop the darkness and YHWH said, through his word that would become messiah 5500 years later, that if there was no night or day those 5500 years would never come and thusly no redemption. So 5500 years after the almighty created the universe messiah was born. And Adam and Eve and the rest of the saints who sat in darkness in sheol saw a great light, the light of messiah shining in sheol as he broke the iron gates of hell and let loose the captives from death and hell, returning them to paradise. So if messiah was born around 4bc, that would mean we're today around 7519 years since creation. And now you know why there is such a thing as time.

You quote the Bible occasionally here but what you posted does not fit with what the Bible says about creation. On the first day of creation, according to the Bible, before Adam and Eve had sinned (the fall) God created light and separated it from darkness, calling one day the other night. Your post confuses me or I am missing the point of it.

[5.56NATO]

I'm not sure on the timeline exactness of it all, just what I've read. And I know Genesis makes mention of YHWH would come in the cool of the evening to talk with Adam, evening denoting a time of day. Oh I think I get it now. Maybe the darkness didn't affect Adam or Eve since they were still spirit rather than base flesh like we are today, they could see as far as they wanted, even to heaven, and had no need for light as we need light to see. They also could travel any distance just by thought. What I should have said is they were unaffected by the passage of time and darkness untill they had fallen, they then lost the bright nature they had and the ability to see in the spiritual plane. It was miserable at night in the cave of treasure so Adam asked YHWH for certain things to comfort him, of wich YHWH obliged. You'll have to read the Books of Adam and Eve for more. Then the Book of Enoch. Then Flavius Josephus. And the apocrypha. And the bible. People have edited so much out of what was common knowledge to believers of the earliest times.

[ltorlo64]

I'm not sure on the timeline exactness of it all, just what I've read. And I know Genesis makes mention of YHWH would come in the cool of the evening to talk with Adam, evening denoting a time of day. Oh I think I get it now. Maybe the darkness didn't affect Adam or Eve since they were still spirit rather than base flesh like we are today, they could see as far as they wanted, even to heaven, and had no need for light as we need light to see. They also could travel any distance just by thought. What I should have said is they were unaffected by the passage of time and darkness untill they had fallen, they then lost the bright nature they had and the ability to see in the spiritual plane. It was miserable at night in the cave of treasure so Adam asked YHWH for certain things to comfort him, of wich YHWH obliged. You'll have to read the Books of Adam and Eve for more. Then the Book of Enoch. Then Flavius Josephus. And the apocrypha. And the bible. People have edited so much out of what was common knowledge to believers of the earliest times.

I have read all but Josephus, which I am working on. I did not remember that being in any of them.

[JTHunter]

Time exists within the universe, not outside of it.

You can't stand outside the big bang and time it. The very passage of time is determined by events within the big bang.

The big bang it self is the beggining of time, and the end of time is when all the matter in the universe runs out of energy and all matter rests cold and motionless in space. Gravity slowly forms a single giant accretion disk from this matter, which eventually compresses into what I can only imagine is like a super "star". This "star" continues to compress itself down into a singular point which contains all of the matter of the universe plus all of the energy generated by the friction of compressing it all into a single point. When the gravity of all the universe's matter is no longer strong enough to contain the energy within itself, it will explode, sending out enough matter and energy to create a new universe. This is the beginning of time all over again.

Over 50 years ago, noted author James Blish (yeah, the guy who transcribed the original Star Trek teleplays into books) theorized that very thing in a quartet of novellas collectively called "Cities In Flight". One story, "The Triumph of Time" had humans in the far distant future placing themselves ot the nexus of where this "big bang" would re-occur. It was their thought/attempt to lend some "structure" or "direction" that the new universe would have by their thoughts and actions would generate in that explosion.

[raxar]

He was describing the pulsating universe theory, just one of many different theories about our universe.

If one event occurs after another there has to be time between the two of them. Even if there isn't a being capable of perceiving times passage, it's like arguing that light doesn't exist without eyes to see it.

[FunkyPertwee]

Over 50 years ago, noted author James Blish (yeah, the guy who transcribed the original Star Trek teleplays into books) theorized that very thing in a quartet of novellas collectively called "Cities In Flight". One story, "The Triumph of Time" had humans in the far distant future placing themselves ot the nexus of where this "big bang" would re-occur. It was their thought/attempt to lend some "structure" or "direction" that the new universe would have by their thoughts and actions would generate in that explosion.

Well, I wouldn't want to be those guys!

[FunkyPertwee]

If one event occurs after another there has to be time between the two of them. Even if there isn't a being capable of perceiving times passage, it's like arguing that light doesn't exist without eyes to see it.

I don't know that time actually stops. Thats just the phrasing I used because I don't know what I'm talking about.

[weevil]

Perhaps time is circular and has no beginning nor end but rather is an endless loop infinitely repeating.

[raxar]

I don't know that time actually stops. Thats just the phrasing I used because I don't know what I'm talking about.

That's OK, neither do the scientists.

I wonder how many people have looked back at all the nonsense that was considered scientific fact 2 or 3 hundred years ago, and then realized that people hundreds of years from now will think the same about us.

[5.56NATO]

I have read all but Josephus, which I am working on. I did not remember that being in any of them.

Try the Books of Adam and Eve;
http://www.sacred-texts.com/chr/apo/index.htm
In these two books, Adam and Eve describe what they lost in the fall. They lost most all their spiritual abilities. And considering our fallen state today this may be a blessing to us since we can't see in the spirit, we can't see the angels assigned to watch us, and the demons who surround us and want to kill us and entice us to sin. None of wich a unbeliever is prepared to deal with, much more a believer.

[Schuetzenman]

How so? If things exist than time has to also exist, since by nature of existence requires time in which the things that exist exist.
Time is a word to convey a concept of what is. A label created to name it based off our planets rotation and movement around our star.

[JTHunter]

Well, I wouldn't want to be those guys!

I don't know. Could be interesting. Your physical make-up becomes the "seed" for that particular universe, possibly lending it some unique qualities.