5.56NATO
02-24-2015, 02:07 PM
Fall Barbarossa begins.
We all know how it turned out in the end.
I have wondered off and on for years about this invasion, in the light of why it was attempted to begin with, and other questions. It's been said Hitler figured that invading Russia, an erstwhile enemy of the west since 1917, would help align Britain with Germany but it did the opposite. I have the feeling that if Germany had kept with the original plan and kept on to Moscow and beyond and ignored most other areas it would have been all over for Stalin in a few months. Also it's not wise to get involved in mout, military operation in urban terrain. Surround a city, pinch its supply lines, and wait for collapse and capitulation is all you have to do. But no, Germany rolled right into each city it came across, no mater how many or how few its inhabitants and lost millions of men. That being said, Germany cost russia almost 11 casualties for every 1 German casualty.
My main question has been "was Russia going to invade Europe?
Was Russia preempted by the German attack?
I had my doubts, I saw a video of German vets claiming post ww2 that they "saved" Europe from a Russian invasion and had my doubts since those German vets may have been simply trying to justify their actions in the war. Then I decided to look into it further and the vets who said they saved Europe from a Russian invasion may have been right, wether they knew it for fact or were saying so to absolve themselves of guilt.
Apparently Stalin was massing armor and troops at the new border with Germany, wich was somewhere in Poland at the time. When the Germans rolled into Russia they were amazed at the amount of armor and troops they captured or killed.
Why were so many right at the border? Germany and Russia had split Poland as you know, and had a non-aggression pact of sorts. But now reading some of Stalins speeches prior to June 22nd of 41, it appears Stalin had a very crafty plan for Europe. He said that they were going to not take sides in this new European war and were going to wait and watch while building up their forces. Then when all sides in the war had bled themselves out, Stalin would roll the Red Army across Europe, and there'd likely be no stopping them. A shrewd plan. At least that is what I've found out from goggling a bit;
Nonintervention represents the endeavor... to allow all the warmongers to sink deeply into the mire of warfare, to quietly urge them on. The result will be that they weaken and exhaust one another. Then... (we will) appear on the scene with fresh forces and step in, naturally "in the interest of peace," to dictate terms to the weakened belligerents.
Stalin's March 10, 1939 speech in Moscow
On August 23, 1939, the German foreign minister, Joachim von Ribbentrop, was in Moscow. He and Molotov signed the historic German-Soviet non-aggression pact. The following evening, Stalin hosted prominent members of the Soviet Political Bureau in his apartment. Among the dinner guests were Molotov, Voroshilov, Lavrenti P. Beria and Nikita Khrushchev.
Stalin explained, as Khrushchev later recalled, that he considered war with Germany unavoidable, but had momentarily tricked Hitler and bought time. The Soviet premier described the treaty with Germany as a game of "who outwits whom."3 He concluded that the Soviet Union held the advantage both morally and militarily. A few months later, the Soviet Foreign Office explained Stalin's decision in a telegram to its embassy in Tokyo: "The ratifying of our treaty with Germany was dictated by the need for a war in Europe."4
On August 25, 1939, the Swiss periodical Revue de droit international published the text of a speech Stalin delivered on August 19 to a closed session of the Political Bureau in Moscow. He was quoted as follows:
It must be our objective that Germany wage war long enough to exhaust England and France so much that they cannot defeat Germany alone.... Should Germany win, it will itself be so weakened that it won't be able to wage war against us for 10 years.... It's paramount for us that this war continues as long as possible, until both sides are worn out.5
There are several online resources for the info but I quoted from here;
http://www.wintersonnenwende.com/scriptorium/english/archives/articles/stalwarplans.html
So there we have it, if Germany hadn't invaded Russia when they had, Russia may have invaded Europe after all.
Just thought it an intersting question.
I found the video of German vets justifying the war;
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q5NhE504Mq8
If Stalins plan had worked out the world would be entirely different today.
We all know how it turned out in the end.
I have wondered off and on for years about this invasion, in the light of why it was attempted to begin with, and other questions. It's been said Hitler figured that invading Russia, an erstwhile enemy of the west since 1917, would help align Britain with Germany but it did the opposite. I have the feeling that if Germany had kept with the original plan and kept on to Moscow and beyond and ignored most other areas it would have been all over for Stalin in a few months. Also it's not wise to get involved in mout, military operation in urban terrain. Surround a city, pinch its supply lines, and wait for collapse and capitulation is all you have to do. But no, Germany rolled right into each city it came across, no mater how many or how few its inhabitants and lost millions of men. That being said, Germany cost russia almost 11 casualties for every 1 German casualty.
My main question has been "was Russia going to invade Europe?
Was Russia preempted by the German attack?
I had my doubts, I saw a video of German vets claiming post ww2 that they "saved" Europe from a Russian invasion and had my doubts since those German vets may have been simply trying to justify their actions in the war. Then I decided to look into it further and the vets who said they saved Europe from a Russian invasion may have been right, wether they knew it for fact or were saying so to absolve themselves of guilt.
Apparently Stalin was massing armor and troops at the new border with Germany, wich was somewhere in Poland at the time. When the Germans rolled into Russia they were amazed at the amount of armor and troops they captured or killed.
Why were so many right at the border? Germany and Russia had split Poland as you know, and had a non-aggression pact of sorts. But now reading some of Stalins speeches prior to June 22nd of 41, it appears Stalin had a very crafty plan for Europe. He said that they were going to not take sides in this new European war and were going to wait and watch while building up their forces. Then when all sides in the war had bled themselves out, Stalin would roll the Red Army across Europe, and there'd likely be no stopping them. A shrewd plan. At least that is what I've found out from goggling a bit;
Nonintervention represents the endeavor... to allow all the warmongers to sink deeply into the mire of warfare, to quietly urge them on. The result will be that they weaken and exhaust one another. Then... (we will) appear on the scene with fresh forces and step in, naturally "in the interest of peace," to dictate terms to the weakened belligerents.
Stalin's March 10, 1939 speech in Moscow
On August 23, 1939, the German foreign minister, Joachim von Ribbentrop, was in Moscow. He and Molotov signed the historic German-Soviet non-aggression pact. The following evening, Stalin hosted prominent members of the Soviet Political Bureau in his apartment. Among the dinner guests were Molotov, Voroshilov, Lavrenti P. Beria and Nikita Khrushchev.
Stalin explained, as Khrushchev later recalled, that he considered war with Germany unavoidable, but had momentarily tricked Hitler and bought time. The Soviet premier described the treaty with Germany as a game of "who outwits whom."3 He concluded that the Soviet Union held the advantage both morally and militarily. A few months later, the Soviet Foreign Office explained Stalin's decision in a telegram to its embassy in Tokyo: "The ratifying of our treaty with Germany was dictated by the need for a war in Europe."4
On August 25, 1939, the Swiss periodical Revue de droit international published the text of a speech Stalin delivered on August 19 to a closed session of the Political Bureau in Moscow. He was quoted as follows:
It must be our objective that Germany wage war long enough to exhaust England and France so much that they cannot defeat Germany alone.... Should Germany win, it will itself be so weakened that it won't be able to wage war against us for 10 years.... It's paramount for us that this war continues as long as possible, until both sides are worn out.5
There are several online resources for the info but I quoted from here;
http://www.wintersonnenwende.com/scriptorium/english/archives/articles/stalwarplans.html
So there we have it, if Germany hadn't invaded Russia when they had, Russia may have invaded Europe after all.
Just thought it an intersting question.
I found the video of German vets justifying the war;
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q5NhE504Mq8
If Stalins plan had worked out the world would be entirely different today.