People getting to touchy, to quick on the trigger. police and civilians

[old Grump]

Woodcarver was shot four times in his side by officer, autopsy shows
John T. Williams, the First Nations woodcarver fatally shot by a Seattle police officer Aug. 30, was struck by four bullets on the right side of his body, indicating he was not facing the officer at the time the shots were fired, the attorney representing the Williams family said Tuesday.
By Steve Miletich (http://search.nwsource.com/search?searchtype=cq&sort=date&from=ST&byline=Steve%20Miletich)
Seattle Times staff reporter

John T. Williams, the woodcarver fatally shot by a Seattle police officer Aug. 30, was struck by four bullets on the right side of his body, indicating he was not facing the officer at the time the shots were fired, the attorney representing the Williams family said Tuesday.
"There's nothing looking like he was facing toward him," Seattle attorney Tim Ford said of Williams' position as the officer fired. "It was all right side."
Ford, in an interview with The Seattle Times, provided a portion of an autopsy report prepared by the King County Medical Examiner's Office relating to the gunshot wounds.
Ford questioned whether the officer needed to shoot if Williams wasn't directly facing him. "... Where is the threat?" he said.
Seattle police have previously said that Officer Ian Birk fired four rounds from a distance of nine to 10 feet. But police officials have not disclosed where Williams was struck, how many times or the precise positions of Birk and Williams.
Sgt. Sean Whitcomb, the department's chief spokesman, said he couldn't comment on autopsy results because of confidentiality rules governing the investigation.
Sgt. Rich O'Neill, the president of the Seattle Police Officers' Guild, said Tuesday that he could not comment on the shooting investigation. But O'Neill said, in general, an armed person who is standing sideways to an officer can still pose a threat.
Birk, 27, shot Williams at Boren Avenue and Howell Street after he stopped his patrol car at a red light and saw Williams carrying a small knife that turned out to be used for carving.
Williams, 50, who was a member of Nuu-Chah-Nulth First Nations in British Columbia, ignored three commands to drop the knife, police officials said. The department originally said Williams advanced on Birk, but later retreated on that statement.
Video from a camera in Birk's patrol car, which hasn't been made public, shows Williams crossing the street in front of Birk and, moments later, the officer crossing in front of his car to the northwest corner of Boren and Howell, Deputy Police Chief Nick Metz said at an Aug. 31 news briefing.
The camera did not capture video of the shooting, but Birk can be heard on an audio recording ordering Williams three times to drop the knife, Metz said at the briefing.
Williams collapsed on the sidewalk along Howell Street, where he was pronounced dead.
Williams had been standing and facing north when he was struck by the shots, Ford said, citing witness accounts. Birk had approached Williams from the side, in an east-to-west direction, stopping just to the east of Williams, Ford said.
Williams was shot once in the right chest, with an exit wound in his left armpit, according to the autopsy report. A second shot entered the right side of Williams' chin, with an exit wound on the left side of his chin, the report said.
Williams was shot a third time in his upper right arm, the report said. The round exited the arm and then entered and exited his chest, according to the report.
A fourth shot struck Williams' right forearm, exiting through the upper arm, the report said.
Ford said that the autopsy didn't show in which order the shots were fired, but that ballistics experts might be able to determine that.
It has not been disclosed in which hand Williams was carrying the legal, 3-inch folding knife recovered by police at the scene.
The autopsy report also noted that a pair of headphones attached to an AM-FM radio were found with Williams' body, Ford said. The report didn't specify where the headphones were retrieved, Ford said.
Williams' family has said he probably didn't even hear the officer command him to drop the knife because he was deaf in one ear and wearing headphones.
Whitcomb, the police spokesman, said autopsy results were available to the department's Firearms Review Board, which completed a confidential inquiry into the shooting during a one-day proceeding that ended Monday evening.
The board was to determine if the shooting was justified, not justified or accidental and submit its preliminary findings to Police Chief John Diaz.
Diaz was to make his own preliminary confidential finding, pending an expected King County court inquest that could bring out more information.
In a written statement released Tuesday, the department said, the confidential preliminary findings have been submitted to Diaz. "Per Department Policy — and to support the integrity of the upcoming King County Inquest — the Department will not comment on any findings or recommendations," the statement said.
The Firearms Review Board will reconvene after the evaluation of criminal liability by the inquest jury and King County prosecutor, the statement said.
Birk, who joined the department about two years ago, will remain on routine paid administrative leave.
http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/localnews/2013082467_shooting06m.html

[HDR]

Williams' family has said he probably didn't even hear the officer command him to drop the knife because he was deaf in one ear and wearing headphones.

Why did he have a knife out in the first place?

[Richard Simmons]

Why did he have a knife out in the first place?

That is my thought as well. You walk past the front of a patrol car carrying an open blade and it's going to draw attention. Hell, if I'd have seen him it would have sure gotten my attention. If you're right handed and lunge at someone with a knife in that hand aren't you then exposing more of your right profile to the intended target than the center or left side? If so, particularly if the office was left handed (story doesn't say) bullet strikes on the right side would seem plausible at the very least.

What I don't see is what his occupation and ethnicity has anything to do with anything? If so what color was the officer?

[jojo]

Could have been cleaning his fingernails.

[MJ1]

Or he could have been slicing an apple and listening to River Dace on max volume. What they don't have tazers? This sounds wrong to the core.

[Richard Simmons]

Or he could have been slicing an apple and listening to River Dace on max volume. What they don't have tazers? This sounds wrong to the core.

Not all LEO are issued tasers and the article doesn't say.

[imanaknut]

This incident screams wrong in so many ways. The article doesn't say if he was carrying the knife in his hand, or it was in view while hanging from his belt. Regardless, another reason why non-uniformed civilians have no trust in uniformed civilians.

[O.S.O.K.]

A few things that went through my mind - a knife is a deadly weapon and an attacker can be on you in a fraction of a second within that distance. The woodcarver ignored the police order to drop the knife at least three times - why? If the woodcarver had the knife in his right hand and turned side-ways with the knife pulled back - it may have looked like he as going to throw it.

I'm just trying to understand why the officer shot.

Seems to me that the woodcarver shouldn't have had the knife in-hand in the first place and should have dropped it immediately when ordered to by the cop.

We don't know what this guy was doing or saying or how he looked.

This could have been suicide by cop...

More information is needed. Surely there are multiple witnesses?

[Richard Simmons]

This incident screams wrong in so many ways. The article doesn't say if he was carrying the knife in his hand, or it was in view while hanging from his belt. Regardless, another reason why non-uniformed civilians have no trust in uniformed civilians.

It does however say it was a "legal" knife. That being the case, after reading the article was the first thing that jumped into your mind that the knife was probably clipped to a pocket or folded up in a sheath? It's entirely possible that a cop sitting at a red light saw a guy walk past with a folding knife in a belt sheath and jumped out of his car to confront him. It's also entirely possible that the guy walked past his car with an open knife in his hand with no apparent reason for doing so and he jumped out of his car to confront him. Which do you think is more likely?

To me all this article "screams" is that a whole lot of facts aren't known. At least not yet and perhaps, never will be.

[matshock]

A few things that went through my mind - a knife is a deadly weapon and an attacker can be on you in a fraction of a second within that distance.



Not if you're in a locked police car with the windows up.

They seem to spend a lot of time drilling on force continuum and not much on simple tactical thinking these days (sense).

[Krupski]

Why did he have a knife out in the first place?

Are you kidding?


John T. Williams, the First Nationswoodcarver fatally shot by a Seattle police officer Aug. 30

Ever been to a Boy Scouts campout? Ever see Scouts whittling wood with their 3 inch long "Assault Knives"?

[Krupski]

The board was to determine if the shooting was justified, not justified or accidental and submit its preliminary findings to Police Chief John Diaz.
................
Birk, who joined the department about two years ago, will remain on routine paid administrative leave.


Once again we see the farce in action. I can tell you right now, the shooting will be ruled as "justified" and "within departmental guidelines" and murderer Ian Birk will be taken off paid administrative leave, given a medal for heroism and returned to duty.

Nothing to see here... move along.

OH and by the way, it's "Police and Citizens", not "Civilians". Cops are civilians. Unless one is military, they are a civilian.

[Krupski]

Or he could have been slicing an apple and listening to River Dace on max volume. What they don't have tazers? This sounds wrong to the core.

It's not "wrong to the core", it's "cops as usual". Well yeah maybe you're right. Wrong to the core == cops. Samey-same.

[Richard Simmons]

Are you kidding?



Ever been to a Boy Scouts campout? Ever see Scouts whittling wood with their 3 inch long "Assault Knives"?

Where in the article does it say he was carving on a piece of wood at the time? It calls him a "woodcarver" not that he was actively engaged in carving at the time of the incident. Several of the people that commented on the article have referred to the victim as a "drunk indian", someone who was frequently seen in the area, usually intoxicated. They make him sound somewhat like a homeless person, with substance abuse issues, maybe a screw loose to boot. At least comment alluded to this officer having disarmed two other indidivuals in the last 18 month that were carrying knives, one of which was a machete.

[Krupski]

Where in the article does it say he was carving on a piece of wood at the time? It calls him a "woodcarver" not that he was actively engaged in carving at the time of the incident.

"Woodcarver" + "Carrying a knife" makes sense to me. Why would they mention "woodcarver" several times in the article?

Or are you just automatically defending the cop by default?

As more and more of this shit happens, and as more and more people find out about it, trigger fingers on BOTH sides will get itchier by the day. And there's more of US than there are of THEM.

This happened several decades ago in a town near me. Local cops got trigger happy and "harassment happy" in general. Word got out and suddenly the funeral parlor business picked way up. The cops learned their lesson... the hard way.

And if you think that's simply "keyboard kommando bullshit", try looking up "Cheektowaga New York Police Shootings Mid 1970's" and read up.

[El Jefe]

"Woodcarver" + "Carrying a knife" makes sense to me. Why would they mention "woodcarver" several times in the article?

Or are you just automatically defending the cop by default?

As more and more of this shit happens, and as more and more people find out about it, trigger fingers on BOTH sides will get itchier by the day. And there's more of US than there are of THEM.

This happened several decades ago in a town near me. Local cops got trigger happy and "harassment happy" in general. Word got out and suddenly the funeral parlor business picked way up. The cops learned their lesson... the hard way.

And if you think that's simply "keyboard kommando bullshit", try looking up "Cheektowaga New York Police Shootings Mid 1970's" and read up.

So how many have you had to shoot?

[Krupski]

So how many have you had to shoot?

Fuck you Jefferson.

[El Jefe]

Fuck you Jefferson.

Just answer the question.

[Richard Simmons]

"Woodcarver" + "Carrying a knife" makes sense to me. Why would they mention "woodcarver" several times in the article?

Or are you just automatically defending the cop by default?

As more and more of this shit happens, and as more and more people find out about it, trigger fingers on BOTH sides will get itchier by the day. And there's more of US than there are of THEM.

This happened several decades ago in a town near me. Local cops got trigger happy and "harassment happy" in general. Word got out and suddenly the funeral parlor business picked way up. The cops learned their lesson... the hard way.

And if you think that's simply "keyboard kommando bullshit", try looking up "Cheektowaga New York Police Shootings Mid 1970's" and read up.

Why did they mention several times that he was a native american? All I asked you was how you knew he was carving on a piece of wood. If they called him a butcher would you also have assumed he was carving a roast while walking down the street? The only thing I'm "defending" is the fact that to a reasonable person we don't have enough facts to decide anything at this time.

[El Jefe]

Why did they mention several times that he was a native american? All I asked you was how you knew he was carving on a piece of wood. If they called him a butcher would you also have assumed he was carving a roast while walking down the street? The only thing I'm "defending" is the fact that to a reasonable person we don't have enough facts to decide anything at this time.

Yep.

I think in most communities if you're walking down the street with a knife in your hand and the Police see you, or if someone calls it in, you're going to be questioned. You're also probably going to be asked to drop the knife, if you decide not to, well.......

[sevlex]

Are cops starting to crack?

Here's an even stranger one:

http://www.chicagobreakingnews.com/2010/10/spree-shooter-suspect-arrested.html


Lynwood cop arrested in spree shootings
October 8, 2010 12:10 PM | 1 Comment | BREAKING STORY
A Lynwood police officer has been arrested in connection with the shooting of three people, one fatally, along the Illinois-Indiana border this week, authorities say.

Brian Dorian, 37, was arrested on first-degree murder charges after a warrant was served at a home in south suburban Lynwood, according to the Will County sheriff's office.

He is being held on $2.5 million bail.

The Lynwood Police Department confirmed Dorian was one of its officers, saying that the department is cooperating with the investigation.

According to Lynwood Chief Russell Pearson, Dorian has been with the department since 2005. He has been on leave since October 2009 after sustaining a shoulder injury while on duty.

Lance Dorian said his brother has been on disability leave for an extended period of time. He said he doesn't speak to his brother very often, but doesn't think he's capable of the crimes he's being accused of.

"He's not the guy, he wouldn't be involved with something like this," Lance Dorian said from the family's home near Lynwood.

Lance Dorian said he's been following news coverage of the shootings this week, but "in no way did I think it was connected to my family."


There is more at the link.

[matshock]

Are cops starting to crack?

Here's an even stranger one:

http://www.chicagobreakingnews.com/2010/10/spree-shooter-suspect-arrested.html




There is more at the link.

Lots of people are starting to crack- to OG's original point.

[El Jefe]

Are cops starting to crack?

Here's an even stranger one:

http://www.chicagobreakingnews.com/2010/10/spree-shooter-suspect-arrested.html




There is more at the link.

Isn't this the same guy who was shooting folks after questioning them about bees?

[old Grump]

I should have posted the original story too. The man was sitting on a bench whittling a piece of wood, something he did a lot of. Police man saw from from a distance and yelled at him but our victim is

1. Hard of hearing

2. Had a set of earphones on and is pretty unlikely to have heard the officer.

3. Wasn't bothering anybody but this officer.

[Nashorn]

Why did they mention several times that he was a native american? All I asked you was how you knew he was carving on a piece of wood. If they called him a butcher would you also have assumed he was carving a roast while walking down the street? The only thing I'm "defending" is the fact that to a reasonable person we don't have enough facts to decide anything at this time.

Richard, We will never know "The rest of the Story" The other side of the story is dead. So now what the cops say is Gospel.Remember Ruby Ridge and Vickey Weaver? I guess it was a crime back then to hold an infant in your arms. Oh but I guess the baby was "Militant" so it was justifiable homicide because the law said so.

[HDR]

Why did they mention several times that he was a native american? All I asked you was how you knew he was carving on a piece of wood. If they called him a butcher would you also have assumed he was carving a roast while walking down the street? The only thing I'm "defending" is the fact that to a reasonable person we don't have enough facts to decide anything at this time.

You're not supposed to decide fairly; he wants you to decide on the basis of an incomplete news article.


Richard, We will never know "The rest of the Story" The other side of the story is dead. So now what the cops say is Gospel.Remember Ruby Ridge and Vickey Weaver? I guess it was a crime back then to hold an infant in your arms. Oh but I guess the baby was "Militant" so it was justifiable homicide because the law said so.

No one said the cops word was gospel or bullshit.

What was said is there wasn't enough information yet. So, you tear off in an entirely different direction. Yes the Weavers were innocent, wrongly attacked and butchered. Those were the facts and proven to be the facts so everyone knows it.

But, wtf does that have to do with this discussion?


Either you have a genuine crystal ball or you pluck shit out of your whatever. In either case I sure as hell would not want you on a jury.

[Nashorn]

HDR, It was meant to show a pattern of this type of behaviour that is becoming more commonplace with law enforcement getting out of control. Want to make a bet on how this turns out. They are already trying to smear and discredit the "DEAD" victim. As a drunk Indian and a looney. It has become apparent that in the last ten years or so law enforcement officials consider themselves above reproach. And are "The Law", not enforcers of it. Also history has a strange way of repeating itself.

[old Grump]

Taint just law enforcement McGee. There has been more than a few questionable shootings by civilians lately too. Like burglars getting shotgunned by next door neighbor as they attempted to leave. This wasn't a cop thread, just an example of questionable shooting for no particularly good reason.

[HDR]

HDR, It was meant to show a pattern of this type of behaviour that is becoming more commonplace with law enforcement getting out of control. Want to make a bet on how this turns out. They are already trying to smear and discredit the "DEAD" victim. As a drunk Indian and a looney. It has become apparent that in the last ten years or so law enforcement officials consider themselves above reproach. And are "The Law", not enforcers of it. Also history has a strange way of repeating itself.

Bullshit, it was meant to spin this into some let's bash cops BS. No evidence, no facts, however in spite of knowing nothing you have a verdict.

Damn, a person was killed so no I don't want to bet on it. What I really want to do is to learn what actually happened as compared to you who already knows.

[old Grump]

Friday, October 08, 2010 Leslie Miller (http://abclocal.go.com/kabc/bio?section=resources/inside_station/newsteam&id=5744035)

(http://abclocal.go.com/kabc/newsteam)
CARLSBAD, Calif. (KABC) -- A gunman opened fire at a Carlsbad elementary school Friday, injuring two children.


The shooting at Kelly Elementary School was reported shortly after noon, a dispatcher said. It was unclear how many shots were fired or exactly where.
Two children, 6 and 7, were reportedly shot and transported to a hospital with minor wounds to their arms.


The alleged gunman tried to flee the scene but was chased and tackled by three nearby construction workers. One of the workers hit the suspect, Brendan L.O'Rourke, with his truck to stop him and the three held him until police arrived.



"He is possibly a transient who lives in the area," said Carlsbad Police Lt. Kelly Cain said. "He is not cooperating with the investigation. He probably has some mental health issues."



O'Rourke, 41, was arrested on suspicion of six counts of attemped murder and numerous weapons violations, Cain said. He is believed to have acted alone.
The campus was placed on lockdown while police gathered evidence. Parents of students were asked to meet at Laguna Rivera Park, which is a short distance from the school.



Police said O'Rourke is not cooperating with the investigation and they believe he has some mental health issues.


The Associated Press contributed to this report.

(Copyright ©2010 KABC-TV/DT. All Rights Reserved.)


http://abclocal.go.com/kabc/story?section=news/state&id=7714630


Can you cop bashers blame this on the police too? We are going nuts in a huge way and once again it is a gun free zone that is the site of gun crime violence. Next headline will be the shooter suing the construction workers for hurting him. Even if it isn't his idea some lawyer will put it into his head to do it. Pure dumb luck nobody is dead and this happens where nobody could protect them because all law abiding citizens are unarmed by law.

[matshock]

Can you cop bashers blame this on the police too? We are going nuts in a huge way and once again it is a gun free zone that is the site of gun crime violence. Next headline will be the shooter suing the construction workers for hurting him. Even if it isn't his idea some lawyer will put it into his head to do it. Pure dumb luck nobody is dead and this happens where nobody could protect them because all law abiding citizens are unarmed by law.

Yep. If I had it my way every PTA would have several designated marksmen to guard the students during recess.