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swampdragon
10-09-2010, 07:50 PM
So I've read the toxic horrors associated with PVC pipe (like I have right now) in your home.

But now, I have been finding a lot of concerns about PEX as well.
This sucks because I was thinking of using PEX in the future.

So is copper still the least toxic way to go?
I know that solder is now lead free.

Any plumbers or chemists out there?
What is your take on this?





PEX: Coalition of Environmental, Consumer, Public Health and Labor Organizations Have Filed Lawsuit to Overturn the Schwarzenegger Administration’s Approval of PEX Pipe

On January 22, 2009, the California Building Standards Commission (Commission) voted to amend the California Plumbing Code to approve the installation of cross-linked polyethylene (PEX) plastic potable water pipe in homes, schools and health care facilities. The addition of PEX to the California Plumbing Code does not become effective until August 1, 2009. Local governments and building officials are not authorized to approve PEX pursuant to this code amendment prior to that date.

On February 19, 2009, a coalition including: (1) the Consumer Federation of California; (2) Planning and Conservation League; (3) Center for Environmental Health; (4) Sierra Club California; (5) California Professional Firefighters; and (6) the California State Pipe Trades Council jointly filed a lawsuit to overturn the Commission’s approval of PEX on the grounds that it was based upon a legally inadequate environmental impact report (EIR).

We oppose the approval of PEX because we believe that the PEX EIR and the approved PEX regulations fail to address serious health, safety and durability concerns related to PEX drinking water pipe. PEX failures, permeation and leaching all pose potential health risks and economic risks to residents, homeowners and installers. We believe that these impacts should be fully evaluated and mitigated before PEX is approved in the California Plumbing Code.
Potential Environmental, Health and Economic Risks Posed by PEX

Contamination of drinking water

* The PEX EIR found that methyl tertiary-butyl ether (MTBE) and tert-Butyl alcohol can leach from PEX in amounts that exceed taste, odor and health guidelines set by the State of California for drinking water. The PEX EIR found that PEX pipes can initially leach as much as 290 ppb of MTBE. The California Department of Public Health and the California Office of Health Hazard Assessment have established a drinking water taste and odor standard of 5 ppb for MTBE and a drinking water public health goal and maximum contaminant level of 13 ppb.
* The PEX EIR also found that PEX can leach ethyl tertiary butyl ether (ETBE), a chemical in the same family as MTBE, in amounts exceeding 100 ppb. An expert toxicologist report commissioned as part of the PEX EIR found that the leaching of ETBE from PEX pipe could contribute to taste and odor impacts, and could potentially lead to adverse health effects.
* The PEX EIR found that PEX pipe is susceptible to permeation by outside contaminants such as pesticides, oil, gasoline, benzene and termiticides.
* Numerous studies and articles submitted to the State of California comparing potable water pipe materials, including variants of PEX, polybutylene, polypropylene, CPVC, copper and steel, have found that PEX displayed the strongest biofilm formation and the strongest initial promotion of the growth of Legionella bacteria.

Failure of PEX Pipe and PEX Fittings

* Failures of PEX and PEX fittings have resulted in consumer lawsuits in Washington, Nevada, Minnesota, Colorado and numerous other areas across the United States.
* California’s January 2009 approval of PEX relies upon the less-protective PEX chlorine resistance standard ASTM F2023, instead of the much superior NSF P171 standard. ASTM F2023 only assures an adjusted lifetime of 25 years, while the NSF P171 standard assures a 40 year adjusted lifetime. At least one reputable PEX manufacturer (Lubrizol Advanced Materials, Inc.) has questioned the adequacy of this standard since it only results in “an expected service life of 25 years, five years less than the traditional home loan.” According to Lubrizol Advanced Materials, Inc., polybutylene pipe passed ASTM F2023 and still failed miserably in U.S. water conditions. Click here to read one PEX manufacturer’s concerns over industry standards.
* California’s January 2009 approval of PEX fails to provide any mitigation to address the known risk of PEX pipe failure due to exposure to sunlight. Even short term exposure to sunlight can dramatically reduce the resistance of PEX to chlorine and result in premature rupture of the pipe. Studies show just a one-week exposure to sunlight may reduce the chlorine resistance lifetime of some PEX pipes by half; with a two week exposure completely depleting PEX of any chlorine resistance. The lack of an enforceable standard to address sunlight exposure creates a liability risk to contractors and installers because there is almost no way to tell why PEX pipe has prematurely failed or to determine how long PEX pipe has been exposed to sunlight.

Lack of Recyclability

* Because it is a thermoset plastic, PEX cannot be melted down and reused. A 2005 report by the San Francisco Department of the Environment found that PEX was the only type of plastic piping that no plastic recycler would accept. Copper pipe generally contains around 70% recycled material and has almost a 100% recycling rate.

Toxic Smoke

* PEX produces toxic smoke when burned in building fires.

Industry Resistance to Disclosure and Mitigation of Potential Health and Environmental Safety Risks

PEX manufacturers have continued the long pattern of industry resistance to public disclosure and review of plastic plumbing products under the California Environmental Quality Act (CEQA).

In 2002, the Plastic Pipe and Fittings Association (PPFA) filed an unsuccessful lawsuit arguing that review of PEX pipe under CEQA was unlawful. The Court of Appeal denied the PPFA claim and held that substantial evidence of potential drinking water contamination through chemical leaching and permeation, as well as evidence of mechanical performance problems and failures, required that PEX pipe undergo CEQA review prior to state approval. (Plastic Pipe and Fittings Association v. California Building Standards Commission (2004) 124 Cal.App.4th 1390.)

The California Building Industry Association, which had supported PPFA’s lawsuit as amicus curiae, then sought to have the California Supreme Court de-publish the California Court of Appeals decision that ruled that PEX should be environmentally tested. The Supreme Court denied the request, allowing the case to be cited as legal precedent for requiring pre-approval CEQA review of potentially hazardous building materials.

At the same time, the Schwarzenegger administration appointed the vice-president of the California Building Industry Association as director of the California Department of Housing and Community Development (HCD). Under her direction, HCD attempted to approve PEX through the issuance of a 2006 Negative Declaration that mysteriously claimed that there was no evidence of health, safety and performance issues. In face of the submission of substantial evidence of potential impacts from the use of PEX, the 2006 Negative Declaration was quickly withdrawn and the California Building Standards Commission began work on an environmental impact report (EIR) to study the risks of PEX.
Commission Reverses Key Finding that Chemical Leaching from PEX May Pose a Significant Risk

In May 2008, the Building Standards Commission released a Draft Environmental Impact Report (Draft EIR) on the potential risks of PEX pipe. The May 2008 Draft EIR corroborated many of the concerns that we have long raised regarding this product. The Draft EIR proposed a number of important measures to attempt to mitigate these hazards, including a requirement that PEX meet California Safe Drinking Water Act standards for public health, taste and odor.

Unfortunately, a few months later, after receiving protests from the PEX manufacturers and meeting with industry lobbyists, the Commission issued a Revised Draft EIR that reversed the findings of the original Draft EIR. The Revised Draft EIR concluded instead that reliance on private industry standards for leaching is sufficient to protect public health and safety even though these industry standards do not meet California drinking water standards.

This reversal was highly controversial. The Commission debated a motion to require PEX to meet minimum California Safe Drinking Water Act standards as recommended in the original Draft EIR. However, that motion was narrowly defeated on a 4 to 6 vote.

In addition to water contamination impacts, the PEX EIR has been challenged for: (1) failing to evaluate reports of widespread failures of PEX and PEX fittings that have resulted in class action lawsuits in Washington, Nevada, Minnesota, Colorado and numerous other areas across the United States; (2) failing to evaluate evidence that industry chlorine resistance standards may be inadequate; (3) failing to evaluate and mitigate the known risk of PEX pipe failure after exposure to sunlight; and (4) failing to evaluate adequately the cumulative impact of replacing a nearly 100% recycled pipe material (copper) with PEX, which is not recycled in any meaningful amount.
Limited PEX Restrictions Imposed by California Represent Partial Victory for Proponents of Safe Building Materials

The Commission’s approval of PEX does represent a partial victory for the proponents of safe building materials. In adding PEX to the California Plumbing Code, the Commission, over the objections of the plastic industry, imposed certain restrictions and mitigation measures intended to address the susceptibility of PEX to permeation by outside contaminants and to address the potential for PEX to fail in recirculating, chlorinated hot water systems.

* Click here to learn more about our efforts to ensure safe building standards and materials.
* Click here to read about our CPVC plastic pipe victory.
* Click here to read about our polybutylene plastic pipe victory.

El Jefe
10-09-2010, 07:56 PM
When I redid a bunch of the plumbing in our house I used copper and I'm glad I did. IMO it's the best bet long term.

aliceinchains
10-09-2010, 08:04 PM
The house i live in has all pex. I am not fond of it but i have to deal with it. Copper is the way to go if you can afford it .

swampdragon
10-09-2010, 08:05 PM
When I redid a bunch of the plumbing in our house I used copper and I'm glad I did. IMO it's the best bet long term.

I know how to do all the cutting and soldering with copper.
I had to learn the hard way.
But I'm good at it now.

I was just thinking that PEX has the ability not to break if it freezes.
But I didn't know about all these bad points.

HDR
10-09-2010, 08:07 PM
Solder is bad for you also.

swampdragon
10-09-2010, 08:08 PM
The house i live in has all pex. I am not fond of it but i have to deal with it. Copper is the way to go if you can afford it .

Why don't "you" personally like it?
Any first hand input would be great.

swampdragon
10-09-2010, 08:13 PM
Solder is bad for you also.

I mentioned lead free solder in the first post.
It's pretty common now.
Most solder gets all over the outside of copper pipes.
But the amount of solder "inside" is usually a lot less.

Perhaps I should do a search about copper pipes specifically.
I dunno?
I grew up with nothing but copper pipes up until just recently.
My current house has PVC and I hate it!
It's easy to fix, but it blows up when it freezes.
I've been reading about the toxic side of it too as well as the glue.

deth502
10-09-2010, 08:28 PM
your pipes arent supposed to freeze.

when pex has been around as long as copper, i may give it a shot. untill then its all still experimental, imo.

HDR
10-09-2010, 08:30 PM
The comment was meant for people living in homes with copper plumbing soldered with old fashioned lead based solder.

As it lasts almost forever some European nations require stainless. Which ought to be a wallet buster.

I had a plumber here who suggested I replace the corrugated copper flex pipe on the hot water heater. I don't know if he is correct or not but according to him copper and wells aren't good. OTOH, the house I grew up in has a well and copper plumbing and everything is still fine; so it may be the water here or he was wrong??

A long time ago it was reported that saccharin caused cancer in rats. Later I read how much saccharin a human would have to ingest to have the same risk which was one hell of a lot more than possible.

Point is, they have lied and spun shit so much I don't have much trust in them. Its a problem which comes with age. lol

swampdragon
10-09-2010, 08:42 PM
your pipes arent supposed to freeze.

when pex has been around as long as copper, i may give it a shot. untill then its all still experimental, imo.

Sometime we get power outages here.
Stuff happens.
That's why I was thinking PEX would be better than my current PVC.
But now I'm thinking about old school copper all over again.

It's sort of like the debate about cast iron vs abs vs pvc for drains?

swampdragon
10-09-2010, 08:47 PM
The comment was meant for people living in homes with copper plumbing soldered with old fashioned lead based solder.

As it lasts almost forever some European nations require stainless. Which ought to be a wallet buster.

I had a plumber here who suggested I replace the corrugated copper flex pipe on the hot water heater. I don't know if he is correct or not but according to him copper and wells aren't good. OTOH, the house I grew up in has a well and copper plumbing and everything is still fine; so it may be the water here or he was wrong??

A long time ago it was reported that saccharin caused cancer in rats. Later I read how much saccharin a human would have to ingest to have the same risk which was one hell of a lot more than possible.

Point is, they have lied and spun shit so much I don't have much trust in them. Its a problem which comes with age. lol

I honestly don't know about water from a well.
My water is pumped in from a main line along the country road that the county owns.
I have no idea what is in that water either, or it's effect on plumbing?

mriddick
10-09-2010, 09:16 PM
The house in KY uses PEX, I've had no issues at all. You aren't by chance asking plumbers losing business to PEX about how PEX is doing are you ;)

matshock
10-09-2010, 09:23 PM
Mine has copper with PEX leads to all the valves. No problems so far.

swampdragon
10-09-2010, 10:38 PM
The house in KY uses PEX, I've had no issues at all. You aren't by chance asking plumbers losing business to PEX about how PEX is doing are you ;)

I haven't really asked anybody anything at all.
Just been reading stuff.

HDR
10-09-2010, 10:51 PM
I honestly don't know about water from a well.
My water is pumped in from a main line along the country road that the county owns.
I have no idea what is in that water either, or it's effect on plumbing?

The article you quoted mentioned chlorine effects PEX..


1) failing to evaluate reports of widespread failures of PEX and PEX fittings that have resulted in class action lawsuits in Washington, Nevada, Minnesota, Colorado and numerous other areas across the United States; (2) failing to evaluate evidence that industry chlorine resistance standards may be inadequate; (3) failing to evaluate and mitigate the known risk of PEX pipe failure after exposure to sunlight; and (4) failing to evaluate adequately the cumulative impact of replacing a nearly 100% recycled pipe material (copper) with PEX, which is not recycled in any meaningful amount.

Number one sounds as if the installer did it wrong. Number two suggests and I have a well. As very little plumbing is in direct sunlight number three is a moot point. Number four won't affect me in this life. lol

I wonder if PEX is made in China; if the answer is yes then being made in China might be the root cause of the failures? :bee:

swampdragon
10-09-2010, 11:04 PM
The article you quoted mentioned chlorine effects PEX..



Number one sounds as if the installer did it wrong. Number two suggests and I have a well. As very little plumbing is in direct sunlight number three is a moot point. Number four won't affect me in this life. lol

I wonder if PEX is made in China; if the answer is yes then being made in China might be the root cause of the failures? :bee:

Oh oh.....

http://www.made-in-china.com/products-search/hot-china-products/PEX_Pipe.html

Goodman
10-09-2010, 11:08 PM
Mine has copper with PEX leads to all the valves. No problems so far.That sounds like a solution for Swampy- have the supply line run through a conduit into the middle of the house and connect it to a manifold block with shutoffs for each separate line.

JTHunter
10-09-2010, 11:20 PM
Swampy - can't help you about the PEX, just info. Several years ago, I heard that Florida had actually banned the use of copper as the pipes were corroding so badly that pinhole leaks were causing all kinds of house damage and water loss. This happened because the treated water was now so clean that the copper pipes were no longer getting the thin film of organic coating (don't remember if it was algae or bacteria) which had actually been protecting the pipes from corrosion. Florida mandated the use of C-PVC and it is what a lot of places are using today. Being stiff pipes however, it is prone to breakage if they freeze with water in them.
Healthwise, I don't know of any problems with either C-PVC or PEX.
Good luck!

HDR
10-09-2010, 11:21 PM
Oh oh.....

http://www.made-in-china.com/products-search/hot-china-products/PEX_Pipe.html


If it is junk or breaks quickly it is usually made in China and I should have guessed.

swampdragon
10-10-2010, 12:01 AM
Swampy - can't help you about the PEX, just info. Several years ago, I heard that Florida had actually banned the use of copper as the pipes were corroding so badly that pinhole leaks were causing all kinds of house damage and water loss. This happened because the treated water was now so clean that the copper pipes were no longer getting the thin film of organic coating (don't remember if it was algae or bacteria) which had actually been protecting the pipes from corrosion. Florida mandated the use of C-PVC and it is what a lot of places are using today. Being stiff pipes however, it is prone to breakage if they freeze with water in them.
Healthwise, I don't know of any problems with either C-PVC or PEX.
Good luck!

My last house had copper.
My current house has PVC.

The copper in NC near Bragg never froze and never blew up either.
However, the temps never went as low as it does here in the Midwest.

My current house here in the Midwest has all PVC/C-PVC.
2 winters in a row now, pipes have froze and then when thawing...blew the fuck up!
Insulating them made no difference.
And...you cannot wrap the pipes with those heater ribbons thingys either...because they will melt into the plastic.

So that lead me to PEX.
Even if PEX freezes, it won't blow up.
But now I'm reading that PEX is great when new...but doesn't last.
And, it has toxic properties too.

So now it seems I've come full circle.
Maybe I'd be best off with old school standard copper pipes and heat ribbons?
This crap is making my head hurt.
But I only want to do the new plumbing once, and right, and be done with it.

As a side note, water quality seems to affect all 3 types of pipes anyways from what you guys are saying?

matshock
10-10-2010, 09:27 AM
Swampy - can't help you about the PEX, just info. Several years ago, I heard that Florida had actually banned the use of copper as the pipes were corroding so badly that pinhole leaks were causing all kinds of house damage and water loss. This happened because the treated water was now so clean that the copper pipes were no longer getting the thin film of organic coating (don't remember if it was algae or bacteria) which had actually been protecting the pipes from corrosion. Florida mandated the use of C-PVC and it is what a lot of places are using today. Being stiff pipes however, it is prone to breakage if they freeze with water in them.
Healthwise, I don't know of any problems with either C-PVC or PEX.
Good luck!

Related story- I had to get new pipes because the original plumbing used cheap fittings with high zinc content. The water supply around here comes from Lake Mead which is full of alkalai minerals. Well, zinc is acidic and alkalies are bases so you do the math...

deth502
10-10-2010, 09:54 AM
Related story- I had to get new pipes because the original plumbing used cheap fittings with high zinc content. The water supply around here comes from Lake Mead which is full of alkalai minerals. Well, zinc is acidic and alkalies are bases so you do the math...

ok..............uhhhh.............ummmmmmmmmmm.... ....

wait a minute, thats not math, thats chemistry :tooth:

HDR
10-10-2010, 10:55 AM
The copper in NC near Bragg never froze and never blew up either.
However, the temps never went as low as it does here in the Midwest.

True, I lived there for about 12 years. The winters are usually mild; snow covers your roof and melts by the afternoon.. (Excluding the blizzard of 2000) LOL

One thing about living there; if you aren't used to stores and roads being filled with Military uniforms you'll soon get over it.


But I only want to do the new plumbing once, and right, and be done with it.

Because you're willing to invest the time to learn how to do it right; you'll be done with it.


1) failing to evaluate reports of widespread failures of PEX and PEX fittings that have resulted in class action lawsuits in Washington, Nevada, Minnesota, Colorado and numerous other areas across the United States;

IMO, that sounds as if it is one of two things; a design flaw or a real shitty installation. The way "PEX fittings" rated being included I am leaning towards poor workmanship.



As a side note, water quality seems to affect all 3 types of pipes anyways from what you guys are saying?

That has been my experience.

crapshoot
10-10-2010, 12:49 PM
Your looking too far into this. I don't think anyone in the US is having issues with their plumbing due to a difference between copper, pex and pvc.

I'd use what your most comfortable with.

old Grump
10-10-2010, 01:39 PM
Estimated useful life when used for radiant heating is estimated to be 50 years, for your everyday plumbing needs, running the dishwasher, filling the bath tub making ice cubes, washing your hands expect a 200 year life span. The chemicals coming out of the pipes may be a concern to somebody 30 years from now who are young and expect to be drinking gallons of water every day from those pipes for 60 years. In the meantime you get most of your poisons from the liquor store and breathing in gun smoke. Over thinking the problem. I like copper because I worked with it for 40 years but I have never had to replace a plastic pipe unless I broke it, (don't ask). Wish I had a dollar for every foot of iron pipe I have had to replace.

swampdragon
10-10-2010, 04:29 PM
Estimated useful life when used for radiant heating is estimated to be 50 years, for your everyday plumbing needs, running the dishwasher, filling the bath tub making ice cubes, washing your hands expect a 200 year life span. The chemicals coming out of the pipes may be a concern to somebody 30 years from now who are young and expect to be drinking gallons of water every day from those pipes for 60 years. In the meantime you get most of your poisons from the liquor store and breathing in gun smoke. Over thinking the problem. I like copper because I worked with it for 40 years but I have never had to replace a plastic pipe unless I broke it, (don't ask). Wish I had a dollar for every foot of iron pipe I have had to replace.

I'm familiar with copper and PVC as I have had to repair both.

PVC is easier in the sense that you just cut out the bad section and glue in a new one.
It's super fast and easy.
The down side of PVC is that when it blows, it can split for several feet.
If it's inside a wall, it's a total PITA pulling out several feet of pipe.

Copper is harder to work with since you have to torch and solder everything.
On the other hand, I've only seen pin-hole leaks in copper.
Not a several feet long split.

elkydriver
10-11-2010, 12:55 PM
if you are worried about contamination from your house plumbing, dont, I would be more concerned about the supply lines coming into your property, as you have NO CONTROL over the material that is used. The last few feet of pipe isnt going to add a significant amount of problems to the water. If you are more concerned about serviceability, then go with the most convenient for your area. Sounds like either PEX or copper would be the way to go

El Laton Caliente
10-11-2010, 02:58 PM
Copper is likely only second to Stainless or glass (and yes they make Pyrex pipe; think $$$). Copper is effected heavily by sulfur and sulfur compounds and to a lessor extent by electrolysis and very soft water.

If you are worried about soulder use compression fittings and roll copper tubing; for the do-it-yourself crowd that may not be good at sweating souldered connections they are easier anyway. Plus they are rated for even higher pressures.

El Jefe
10-11-2010, 04:00 PM
I'm familiar with copper and PVC as I have had to repair both.

PVC is easier in the sense that you just cut out the bad section and glue in a new one.
It's super fast and easy.
The down side of PVC is that when it blows, it can split for several feet.
If it's inside a wall, it's a total PITA pulling out several feet of pipe.

Copper is harder to work with since you have to torch and solder everything.
On the other hand, I've only seen pin-hole leaks in copper.
Not a several feet long split.

You need to figure out and fix the real problem, which is freezing pipes. I've not had an issue with a frozen pipe ever and I live in the same climate you do. If it was me I'd fix that issue before I worried about what I used for plumbing lines.

JTHunter
10-12-2010, 09:45 PM
Swampy - have you ever seen that gray "plastic" pipe they use in mobile homes? The ones with the "clamp-type" closures at fittings? I had plastic pipe like that in the walls and underneath my mobile home where it connected to the copper coming out of the ground. I used the flat yellow heat tape on that gray plastic pipe, starting in the ground about 12" down inside a clay tile where the copper was coming up. As that was on copper and outside the skirting, I wrapped that at 3 turns per linear foot, around the shut-off valve, then in through the skirting on the gray pipes. I reduced the tape to 2 turns per foot until it went up to the water heater. I also had fiberglass wrap and tape on all the pipe to help keep the heat in the pipes. Never had it melt any of the pipes and this was in Illinois near St. Louis.

l921428x
10-13-2010, 03:02 AM
Swampy there are new fittings in the copper world that do not need to be soldered and will hold, if I remember correctly, 300 psi of pressure. I was at Home Depot
when I saw these fittings. Copper is the best way to go.

Gunner1558
10-19-2010, 02:40 PM
I'd go with copper. No-lead solder is available if you have any worries about lead.

Copper pipes in a crawl space can be kept from freezing by putting an electric outlet with a 100 watt bulb in the area near the lines.

My folks place has only a crawl space and a light bulb has provided the anti-freeze for their plumbing for about 40 years. No freeze-ups so far.

The longest run of line is about 17'. If you are looking at lines that go from one end of the house to the other, you may have to use more than one light, but good insulation of the crawl space and no prolonged loss of power have done the job for them.