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swampdragon
10-16-2010, 05:11 PM
This is old news, but still fun to talk about.
Not everybody agrees....



666 wrong number of prophetic beast?
Newly examined Scripture fragment
lends credence to argument it's 616
Posted: May 08, 2005
2:17 pm Eastern

© 2010 WorldNetDaily.com



For centuries, people have been intrigued by the number 666, the "number of the beast" from the Book of Revelation in the New Testament.

Not only is it mentioned in the Bible, it has been associated with the Satanism, universal price codes and the game of roulette, as the numbers on the wheel add up to 666.

Now, the legendary number is getting a fresh look, as researchers are re-examining evidence the number may actually be 616.


Fragment from Book of Revelation mentions 616 in the third line – chi, iota, sigma (courtesy Egypt Exploration Society)

In the King James Version of the Bible, the well-known verse of Revelation 13:18 reads:

"Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast: for it is the number of a man; and his number is Six hundred threescore and six."

While many Bible have footnotes saying the number translated from the original Greek could be 616, experts say new photographic evidence of an ancient fragment of papyrus from Revelation indeed indicates the number is indeed 616, instead of 666.

Scholars in England have been using modern technology to scour some 400,000 bits of papyri which were originally discovered in 1895 at a dump outside the ancient Egyptian city of Oxyrhynchus. Many of the sections have been damaged and discolored, but an imaging process is shedding new light on the sacred text, believed to have originally been penned by John, one of Jesus' 12 apostles.

"This is a very nice piece to find," Ellen Aitken, a professor of early Christian history at McGill University, told Canada's National Post. "Scholars have argued for a long time over this, and it now seems that 616 was the original number of the beast."

The papyrus in the spotlight is believed to be from about 300 A.D.

"This is very early confirmation of that number, earlier than any other text we've found of that passage," Aitken said. "It's probably about 100 years before any other version."

The main researcher promoting the 616 claim is David Parker, professor of New Testament Textual Criticism and Paleography at the University of Birmingham in England.

"This is an example of gematria, where numbers are based on the numerical values of letters in people's names," Parker told the UK's Independent. "Early Christians would use numbers to hide the identity of people who they were attacking: 616 refers to the Emperor Caligula."

Many commentators have gone with later copies of text which assign the number 666 to "the beast," believed by some to be the End-time world power.

Some have also linked 666 with Nero, the ancient Roman emperor known for persecuting Christians.

Parker points out the possibility of 616 was considered by the second century church father Irenaeus, who rejected it.

Regarding this new text, Parker told Britain's Church Times, "This adds weight to those who believe that it is a reference to Caligula's attempt to desecrate the Temple in Jerusalem, by having his statue erected there as part of the cult of emperor worship.

"There may be a reference to it in Mark [13:14], where he refers to the 'the abomination of desolation.' But this was overlaid by the Neronian persecutions. People believed that you could get from '666' to Nero because in Greek he is the emperor Neron Caesar. And 666 is one number less than the perfect 777. The text [showing 616] is quite legible to the naked eye. It was published in 1999, but it has taken people time to catch up."

The National Post quotes Elijah Dan, professor of philosophy and religion at the University of Toronto, as saying the new number won't likely have an impact in the popularity of 666.

"Otherwise, a lot of sermons would have to be changed and a lot of movies rewritten," he said with a laugh. "There's always someone with an active imagination who can put another interpretation on it. It just shows you that when you study something as cryptic and mystic as the Book of Revelation there's an almost unlimited number of interpretations."

old Grump
10-16-2010, 05:43 PM
Buried somewhere in my files is a long scholarly dissertation on 666 and its mistaken attribution as the mark of the beast. Written first in Aramaic and mistranslated several times and attributed to several people including Nero it apparently was supposed to signify the prophet Tarsus, author of much of the new testament. This has been brought up before but any hardliner who only believes the King James version as the word and the only word of God refuses to believe there could be any mistakes so it keeps coming round. If nothing else it's good for scary movies.

swampdragon
10-16-2010, 06:39 PM
Buried somewhere in my files is a long scholarly dissertation on 666 and its mistaken attribution as the mark of the beast. Written first in Aramaic and mistranslated several times and attributed to several people including Nero it apparently was supposed to signify the prophet Tarsus, author of much of the new testament. This has been brought up before but any hardliner who only believes the King James version as the word and the only word of God refuses to believe there could be any mistakes so it keeps coming round. If nothing else it's good for scary movies.

Tarsus?
Wow.
I'd like to read that.
I've always found this type of thing interesting.

old Grump
10-16-2010, 07:15 PM
I'll try and find it, it was part of two long discussions on the topic on Frugals Forum and The High Road but it was a long time ago. Hopefully its in my archives in my personal files and didn't get deleted during one of my computer hiccups, I'd hate to have to try and find it all again.

swampdragon
10-16-2010, 08:04 PM
I'll try and find it, it was part of two long discussions on the topic on Frugals Forum and The High Road but it was a long time ago. Hopefully its in my archives in my personal files and didn't get deleted during one of my computer hiccups, I'd hate to have to try and find it all again.

Don't go all way out of your way for it.
I didn't realize how difficult it would be.

old Grump
10-16-2010, 08:51 PM
They weren't discussions about 666 but how the differences in interpretations from Aramaic to Hebrew to Greek, Latin, English etc. changed meanings because of language differences, and each societies differences and ways of understanding another time and another culture. It also touched in the universal sameness of various creation legends and the universality in each major religion of the laws of morality.



666 was just one of the oddball side topics that came up during the research. I should have printed it out. One of these days I will learn. Back when they were translating texts the understanding of cultural differences, archaeology and physical differences between peoples wasn't as well developed as linguistics. This caused differences in the way they read numbers and interpreted phrases.

I guess that's why Obama should listen to the experts in the State department when they try to explain the niceties of diplomacy to him. He seems to think everybody is the same as the people he is used to dealing with in that big city in Illinois. Now take his little missteps in modern cultural goof's and stretch it out back to the beginning of the oral Torah.

swampdragon
10-16-2010, 09:04 PM
Gotcha.

Translation and interpretation is everything.
A couple hundred years from now, people will probably discover that "we" are wrong about stuff too.

MOP
10-17-2010, 07:38 AM
Thank You, to the two Gentlemen above.

Let us say 666/616 is the "mark", would that number be in Roman Numeral/

or an early form of Hebrew ??

The problem is that; our current numerical system is derived from Arabic Numbers.

swampdragon
10-17-2010, 07:56 AM
Thank You, to the two Gentlemen above.

Let us say 666/616 is the "mark", would that number be in Roman Numeral/

or an early form of Hebrew ??

The problem is that; our current numerical system is derived from Arabic Numbers.

Ah.
Great question!

old Grump
10-18-2010, 02:24 PM
This is just one sample from my notes, I haven't found all of them yet, still digging through my book marks and files. Their system didn't use numbers per se but wrote them out. Depending on what language you were using for numbers they used different letters and those letters could stand for several different names. If you screw around with any name long enough you can make anybody come out 666 like they did for Osama. Makes me not have any faith in the Hebrew Numerology system or Kabbalah but some swear by it. This search is going to send you down a lot of roads.


Hebrew Gematria of 666 (http://hebrewgematria.blogspot.com/2010/03/hebrew-gematria-of-666.html)

Of all numbers in Hebrew (http://allthingshebrew.com/) Gematria, 666 must be the most intriguing example. People have wondered at the Gematria of 666, in Hebrew (http://allthingshebrew.com/learninghebrew.php), Greek and Latin, for centuries. The Hebrew (http://allthingshebrew.com/historyofhebrew.php) Gematria of 666 comes from the following verse in the New Testament:

Revelation 13:18 Here is wisdom. Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast: for it is the number of a man; and his number is Six hundred threescore and six. (KJV)

The Hebrew (http://allthingshebrew.com/hebrewalphabet.php) Gematria and the number 666 is shown in red in the screen shot of these verses from the Greek text and the Aramaic (http://allthingsaramaic.com/) of the Peshitta (http://allthingsaramaic.com/aramaic-nt-intro.php), shown below:


http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_5L5OxdhSlug/S6eLLaAnH_I/AAAAAAAAAd8/2pJdnT4qTjg/s400/hebrew-gematria-rev13v18.gif (http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_5L5OxdhSlug/S6eLLaAnH_I/AAAAAAAAAd8/2pJdnT4qTjg/s1600-h/hebrew-gematria-rev13v18.gif)

The Gematria in the Greek and the Aramaic Peshitta (http://allthingsaramaic.com/aramaicnewtestament.php) is 666, not 616 as some Catholics claim.

The context of the chapter is also important to an understanding of the Hebrew (http://allthingshebrew.com/) Gematria of 666. Revelation 13 talks about a beast rising up out of the sea, having 7 heads and 10 horns, and on each horn crowns with the names of blasphemy. The beast fought against the Lamb and the saints of God.

Bible students have understood the Hebrew (http://allthingshebrew.com/) Gematria of 666 for centuries, and detailed explanations were written about this Gematria literally hundreds of years ago. The Hebrew (http://allthingshebrew.com/hebrew-nextsteps.php) Gematria is no mystery and no secret.

The Hebrew (http://allthingshebrew.com/) Gematria of Nero Caesar adds up to 666, and also fits perfectly with the context of Revelation 13. To demonstrate this Hebrew (http://allthingshebrew.com/) Gematria, here is Nero Caesar (written as Neron in Hebrew (http://allthingshebrew.com/learninghebrew.php)):


http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_5L5OxdhSlug/S6eLAsUVHQI/AAAAAAAAAd0/HaDWe2WltqQ/s320/hebrew-gematria-neron-caesar.gif (http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_5L5OxdhSlug/S6eLAsUVHQI/AAAAAAAAAd0/HaDWe2WltqQ/s1600-h/hebrew-gematria-neron-caesar.gif)


The Hebrew (http://allthingshebrew.com/historyofhebrew.php) Gematria of Neron Caesar therefore adds up to 666. The Hebrew letters (http://allthingshebrew.com/hebrewalphabet.php) are as follows: Nun (http://allthingshebrew.com/hebrewletters-nun.php) (Gematria 50), Resh (http://allthingshebrew.com/hebrewletters-resh.php) (Gematria 200), Vav (http://allthingshebrew.com/hebrewletters-vav.php) (Gematria 6), Nun (http://allthingshebrew.com/hebrewletters-nun.php) (Gematria 50), Kof (http://allthingshebrew.com/hebrewletters-kof.php) (Gematria 100), Samech (http://allthingshebrew.com/hebrewletters-samech.php) (Gematria 60) and Resh (http://allthingshebrew.com/hebrewletters-resh.php) (Gematria 200). This gives a total Hebrew (http://allthingshebrew.com/) Gematria of 50+200+6+50+100+60+200, or 666.

The Roman Empire was the beast that rose out of the sea. It fulfilled the prophecy of the fourth kingdom in Daniel chapters 2 and 7 in the Tanakh (http://allthingshebrew.com/tanakhlessons.php) (Hebrew Bible (http://allthingshebrew.com/tanakhintro.php)), built upon the previous empires (leopard, bear and lion) of Greece, Medo-Persia and Babylon respectively and extending them.

Rome had 7 heads, or Emperors, from Nero to Domitian, the end of the Apostolic age. Their names were Nero, Galba, Otho, Vitellius, Vespasian, Titus and Domitian. The Emperors literally waged war on God's people – both Jews and the early Christians. Vespasian and Titus destroyed Jerusalem and the Temple, waging a war on Jews everywhere in Israel. Josephus describes the horrific details and the immense number of Jews killed without mercy. Yeshivas and their students were burned. Jewish women were raped. Men and children were put to the sword. Likewise, Nero and Domitian cruelly persecuted Christians without mercy. The Emperors took to themselves the names of blasphemy – God and LORD. They believed themselves to be God. People had to worship them as if they were deities.

There is, however, much more to the Hebrew (http://allthingshebrew.com/) Gematria of 666, as we shall see in future blogs. The Roman Empire changed, becoming the Holy Roman Empire. The Hebrew (http://allthingshebrew.com/) Gematria of 666 does not end here, but continues as the prophecy in Revelation 13 unfolds. Stay tuned!

http://hebrewgematria.blogspot.com/2010/03/hebrew-gematria-of-666.html

swampdragon
10-18-2010, 03:13 PM
Very interesting Grump.
It doesn't address the 616 number (which is now considered the original) but it's a start.

So does this really mean that the Bible is just a big metaphor and should not be taken literally?
And as time went on, 616 was changed to 666 to better describe current events of real people.
And that the "Beast" was never an independent entity....just a metaphor for a chosen world leader at a given time?

I know this has been the theory for a long time.
But now that it has been discovered the existence of 2 different numbers, it would seem to completely disprove the taking of the Bible literally.
If the Beast was "literally" the Beast, then there would be no need to change his number.

MOP
10-18-2010, 09:05 PM
Great Job, this is getting to be very interesting.

swampdragon
10-19-2010, 01:29 PM
Great Job, this is getting to be very interesting.

Here is an interesting perspective.
It doesn't make it true.
But it's still interesting anyways....


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nLzZwogRMrM

HDR
10-21-2010, 06:59 AM
I'll try and find it, it was part of two long discussions on the topic on Frugals Forum and The High Road but it was a long time ago. Hopefully its in my archives in my personal files and didn't get deleted during one of my computer hiccups, I'd hate to have to try and find it all again.

That is why I bought some flash drives and a sata external drive.

old Grump
10-22-2010, 06:04 PM
Don't have an external drive yet but I did get a few flash drives and everything on my computer is backed up now but the thread I'm looking for happened on THR and Frugals Forum and I just plain can't find it. I should have been more organized after putting in that much search time on a subject. To soon old, to late smart my grandma always said, now i know what she meant.

HDR
10-24-2010, 06:09 AM
Don't have an external drive yet but I did get a few flash drives and everything on my computer is backed up now but the thread I'm looking for happened on THR and Frugals Forum and I just plain can't find it. I should have been more organized after putting in that much search time on a subject. To soon old, to late smart my grandma always said, now i know what she meant.

The 750 gig external sata is great because it has lots of room. However, as not all computers have an external port to plug in a SATA drive so USB would be better.

I say hindsight is cheap. :D

printerman
10-25-2010, 04:49 PM
555 :firedevil: