Gunmen kill 17 at party in Mexico

[mriddick]

Human life is way too cheap to the Mexican drug cartels.

Officials say gunmen kill 17 at party in Mexico


17 gunned down in Mexico fiesta slaughter AFP/File – A Mexican Federal Policeman keeps watch during the presentation to the press of alleged drug traffickers …
By OSCAR VILLALBA, Associated Press Writer Oscar Villalba, Associated Press Writer – Sun Jul 18, 2:30 pm ET

PIEDRAS NEGRAS, Mexico – Gunmen stormed a party in northern Mexico on Sunday and massacred 17 people, authorities said.

The gunmen arrived at the party in Torreon in several cars and opened fire without saying a word, the Coahuila state Attorney General's Office said in statement. At least 18 people were wounded.

Several of the victims were young and some were women, but their identities and ages had not yet been determined.

Investigators had no suspects or information on a possible motive.

Police found more than 120 bullet casings at the scene, most of them from .223 caliber weapons.

Coahuila is among several northern states that has seen a spike in drug-related violence that authorities attribute to a fight between the Gulf cartel and its former enforcers, known as the Zetas.

In May, gunmen killed eight people at a bar in Torreon. Later that month, a television station and the offices of a local newspaper came under fire. A pregnant woman was wounded in the attack on the offices of Noticias de El Sol de la Laguna.

Across northern Mexico, there have been increasing reports of mass shootings at parties, bars and rehab clinics.

In the worst such massacre this year, gunmen raided a drug rehab center in the northern city of Chihuahua and killed 19 people. In January, gunmen barged into a private party in the border city of Ciudad Juarez and killed 15, many of them high school or university students. Relatives say it was a case of mistaken identity, while state officials claim someone at the party was targeted, although they have not said who it was.

The massacre in Torreon came three days after the first successful car bombing by drug cartels introduced a new threat in Mexico's raging drug war.

Drug gang members detonated the bomb after luring federal police and paramedics to the scene in Ciudad Juarez by shooting a bound man dressed in police uniform and calling in a false report of a wounded officer. Three people were killed, including a federal officer and a private doctor who had rushed to the scene to help.

Officials say 24,800 people have been killed in drug gang violence since President Felipe Calderon declared war on the cartels in December 2006, deploying soldiers and federal police to fight traffickers in their strongholds.

The government attributes much of the rise in violence to infighting among drug gangs whose leadership has been splintered after the arrest of kingpins.

[O.S.O.K.]

Yes. And as bad as it is, its going to seem a whole lot worse when it starts to happen up here - or should I say increases up here....

[ubersoldate]

Wow.
Such a thoughtfull and caring bunch of people.

I guess Im a little jaded being in AZ right now.

[O.S.O.K.]

I didn't mean to sound callouse. Its just that you hear this shit every day and its all about the drug cartels - usually killing each other or their families. Yes, its a travesty and a real shame. And nothing is being done on our side to help stop it - like seal the border. Or maybe we grow brains and legalize pot and choke-off their bigest source of revenue.

[alismith]

Since Mexico doesn't have a Bill of Rights, why don't the police and military just raid the cartel strongholds and erase them from the face of the earth? It seems as if their government is just playing games with them while the cartels are playing for keeps. Is the Mexican government that liberal, or is it just weak?:wondering:

[old Grump]

And cut their income by 90%, are you insane?

[ubersoldate]

I didn't mean to sound callouse. Its just that you hear this shit every day and its all about the drug cartels - usually killing each other or their families. Yes, its a travesty and a real shame. And nothing is being done on our side to help stop it - like seal the border. Or maybe we grow brains and legalize pot and choke-off their bigest source of revenue.

I didnt mean you, I meant the dirt culture that we are seeing from our southern border.
Alot has happened in AZ with Mexico lately, and we here feel like its gonna get real interesting next week when this law goes into effect.

[mriddick]

Have things gotten better or worse with the law coming on line?

[ubersoldate]

Have things gotten better or worse with the law coming on line?

Everyone will have their own outlook, but in my eyes it is going to get worse.
People here in the city are picking sides, and everyone is talking under their breath that something is going to happen, maybe more protests, maybe riots, I cant say, but I know that is has gotten alot worse in AZ in the last year, and this law is WAY overdue.
You already know the stats, and the news, but we are loosing areas in our state where members here used to shoot and hunt, due to illegals and the feds arent doing anything.
There are many people who have made statements that if our police, and citizens get targeted by cartels like its being reported due to this law, then possibly its time to start targeting back.

At least we live in interesting times.

[yankeedog]

Since Mexico doesn't have a Bill of Rights, why don't the police and military just raid the cartel strongholds and erase them from the face of the earth? It seems as if their government is just playing games with them while the cartels are playing for keeps. Is the Mexican government that liberal, or is it just weak?:wondering:

Well if they dig deep enough they will find the mexican goverment is behind the whole thing.
I just can't see a goverment of a non-third world country unable to pretty much either stop, start or keep going any action they want to happen.

[American Rage]

Sooner or later, their violence will come here, or our military will go there.

I'd bet on the former before the latter.


rage

[Ruskiegunlover]

Ok, add an amendment to the constitution that we legalize pot, but OUTLAW ANY AND ALL bullshit social programs, aid programs, help programs, and ANY federal or state aid for addicts. No welfare for pot smokers, no addict programs funded by tax dollers......To hell with those who do it. If you get addicted and loose your job, good luck. Really, should be that way with just about all substances except pain killers.....

angers me. So many idiots think things will just get bvetter and cheaper if we legalize. People have no idea......

[alismith]

AR, I have an idea what you said is right, but not in the way you said it. Our governemnt will go to AZ and prevent American citizens from firing back when the cartels and illegals start shooting. The only ones to be arrested will be Americans trying to defend themselves.

[American Rage]

So, your vote is that the violence is coming here. I personally concur.


Rage

[Solidus-snake]

This, coming to a street near you soon.

[blobman]

the really scary thing is that most people dont understand the gravity of whats going on in the border states,its just beyond their comprehension,they are too far away from it ,or they see it as a "racial issue"

[Uncle Scary]

I Or maybe we grow brains and legalize pot and choke-off their bigest source of revenue.

Unless we can flip a switch and convince every junkie in America to "just say no," these killings will continue. Otherwise, I agree with you about legalization. America is the most lucrative market in the world for illicit drugs. There would be no cartels and killings south of the border if it wasn't for the drug habits north of the border.

Just like Prohibition, there's just too much money to be made for it to stop on it's own.

[AKTexas]

There are pirates on Falcon Lake,nothing is being done other than warnings to the bass fishers and tourist to watch ouch.

Large caches of weapons are found on our borders with all those gunshow grenades,rpgs and full auto rifles.Where are these gunshows and where are my grenades?

Shit is going to pop off soon and AZ will be ground zero,then the next state that borders Mexico.

[skorpion]

Police found more than 120 bullet casings at the scene, most of them from .223 caliber weapons.
Found at a Zeta camp earlier this summer:

http://img830.imageshack.us/img830/5526/att16.jpg (http://img830.imageshack.us/i/att16.jpg/)

http://img839.imageshack.us/img839/4632/att1a.jpg (http://img839.imageshack.us/i/att1a.jpg/)

[Partisan1983]

Ok, add an amendment to the constitution that we legalize pot, but OUTLAW ANY AND ALL bullshit social programs, aid programs, help programs, and ANY federal or state aid for addicts. No welfare for pot smokers, no addict programs funded by tax dollers......To hell with those who do it. If you get addicted and loose your job, good luck. Really, should be that way with just about all substances except pain killers.....

angers me. So many idiots think things will just get bvetter and cheaper if we legalize. People have no idea......


Pot isn't addictive.

Tobbacco is a shit ton more harmful to the individual smoking it than weed.

[Ruskiegunlover]

In the very end, f*** you guys who want to legalize this shit. You all sing pots praises, want it legal.....and when you DO, along will come the same social ills that come with alcohol, and then you'll want uncle sugar to pay to treat these dumbass people. NO. F*** people who are stupid enough to get on this s***. I'd just as soon have the addicts shot as help them. The answer with crime is not just to legalize it.......

[Ruskiegunlover]

the answer is to militarize the border, shoot every goddamn person crossing. F*** mexico, what are they going to do?

[yankeedog]

In the very end, f*** you guys who want to legalize this shit. You all sing pots praises, want it legal.....and when you DO, along will come the same social ills that come with alcohol, and then you'll want uncle sugar to pay to treat these dumbass people. NO. F*** people who are stupid enough to get on this s***. I'd just as soon have the addicts shot as help them. The answer with crime is not just to legalize it.......
I don't think legalizing pot will lead to any social down grading.
People smoke it now like its legal just driving down the road.
You have alcohol thats legal and drunk driviers kill everyday and gives you a headache the next day, pot don't.
Gambling is a family disaster but no one really cares?
People read into the pot debate too much, its more natual than anything and people just can't see making money off it if its legal is the only reason they don't like it.

[Full Otto]

Investigators had no suspects or information on a possible motive.

Police found more than 120 bullet casings at the scene, most of them from .223 caliber weapons.

I suspect these two lines are the only reason this article saw the light of day

[El Jefe]

In the very end, f*** you guys who want to legalize this shit. You all sing pots praises, want it legal.....and when you DO, along will come the same social ills that come with alcohol, and then you'll want uncle sugar to pay to treat these dumbass people. NO. F*** people who are stupid enough to get on this s***. I'd just as soon have the addicts shot as help them. The answer with crime is not just to legalize it.......

Dude, you seem to be equating pot with harder drugs such as heroin, they are not comparable. About anyone who knows what they're talking about can tell you that alcohol is worse and causes far more problems. I don't personally use it, but it should be legal, it's a joke that it isn't.

[Blacksmith]

Sooner or later, their violence will come here, or our military will go there.

I'd bet on the former before the latter.


rage

It already has. and the federal government won’t do a damn thing except put up signs.



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DPrl4P9AcrQ

[Solidus-snake]

It already has. and the federal government won’t do a damn thing except put up signs.



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DPrl4P9AcrQ

Makes me fucking sick... theyre winning

[AKTexas]

I just read that 1500 national guard troops promised by the big O will deploy in 2 weeks.

1500?Sending pigs to slaughter.Sad,very sad.

[O.S.O.K.]

In the very end, f*** you guys who want to legalize this shit. You all sing pots praises, want it legal.....and when you DO, along will come the same social ills that come with alcohol, and then you'll want uncle sugar to pay to treat these dumbass people. NO. F*** people who are stupid enough to get on this s***. I'd just as soon have the addicts shot as help them. The answer with crime is not just to legalize it.......

Wow, you sure hate pot don't you? Have you ever smoked or ingested it? I haven't for many years - decades in fact but I know exactly what it is and how it affects you and its a much more benign drug than alcohol for a lot of people. It's stupid as hell to allow all of the revenue to go south of the border and fill up our prisons with people busted for pot charges.

If we legalize it, then it can and will be regulated just like alcohol and tobacco. And.... taxed. This will be in the realm of tens of billions of dollars of currently lost revenue - presently going to fuel the mexican cartels. The present situation is just stupid as hell.

I totally agree with your sentiment that followed this post - seal the border and get nasty with anybody daring to enter our country illegaly. But, also legalize pot to eliminate the drug cartel's income.

[O.S.O.K.]

I just read that 1500 national guard troops promised by the big O will deploy in 2 weeks.

1500?Sending pigs to slaughter.Sad,very sad.

I'm sure you don't mean that the National Guardsmen are pigs - you mean it "like" sending pigs to slaughter... right?

The problem is that they will essentially be unarmed - or not allowed to return fire without calling mommy or some such bullshit.

They are supposedly going to be filling back-up roles - communications, supply, etc.? I don't know...

[AKTexas]

I'm sure you don't mean that the National Guardsmen are pigs - you mean it "like" sending pigs to slaughter... right?

The problem is that they will essentially be unarmed - or not allowed to return fire without calling mommy or some such bullshit.

They are supposedly going to be filling back-up roles - communications, supply, etc.? I don't know...

No these troops are not pigs but being lead to a slaughter.They need to cut the tape and allow them to the job right.

[mriddick]

Legalization would do wonders for the Mexicans in reducing profits in the drug trade, although it would more then likely localize crime nearer to home for most of us. That is unless they also modify the work rules so that pot heads can't be fired for smoking, to do less would be to dreate a new class of unemployed stoners who would spend their days trying to raise the funds to buy a bag of their favorite blend. If you legalize pot you'll increase the number of smokers but without job protections many will run into issues with employment, basically you'll be increasing petty crime everywhere while decreasing major drug crime.

[El Jefe]

Legalization would do wonders for the Mexicans in reducing profits in the drug trade, although it would more then likely localize crime nearer to home for most of us. That is unless they also modify the work rules so that pot heads can't be fired for smoking, to do less would be to dreate a new class of unemployed stoners who would spend their days trying to raise the funds to buy a bag of their favorite blend. If you legalize pot you'll increase the number of smokers but without job protections many will run into issues with employment, basically you'll be increasing petty crime everywhere while decreasing major drug crime.

If it were legal I don't see how an employer could fire you for failing a whiz quiz. Now if you were caught smoking on the job sure, kinda like getting caught drinking on the job. I think petty crime would drop, not rise.

[Ruskiegunlover]

I am starting to lean towards legalization, only because like most everything in this country we are going to hell. Why not legalize drugs in the meantime too?

Again, FINE. Legalize ALL of it, for those too weak to avoid orresponsible behaviors......and to hell with them when they loose control. All safety nets do is teach people a lack of responsibility. Make it clear there will be NO tax funded addiction programs, nothing. So try it at your own risk......

Frankly, people who just can't live without their pot do piss me off. My life has thus far, despite challenges, been fantastic with all the ups and downs. I just picked up my BA this morning from wichita state university......I have experienced no loss of experience by not succumbing to weakness or immaturity and smoking pot. I drink in moderation. People who do this will to me, always be part of the problem. I am not funding the drug trade, are you?

[mriddick]

If it were legal I don't see how an employer could fire you for failing a whiz quiz. Now if you were caught smoking on the job sure, kinda like getting caught drinking on the job. I think petty crime would drop, not rise.

Chances are most workers in the US can be fired now if alcohol is detected in their blood on a test (seen it happen at numerous places). Most places I go to have a zero tolerance when it comes to alcohol/drug on the job testing.

I'm interested in why you'd think petty crime would go down? Do you believe the whole stoners are too lazy/unmotivated to do crime image hollywood likes to put forth or is there some other reason. My reasoning on why it would go up is mainly because you'd be increasing the number of pot smokers, as the numbers go up their employment goes down (lets face it most times the hard core smokers are not the best workers, let alone work rules against pot in your system). As their employment goes down they will still need money which will come from petty crimes. I've noticed over the years most of the hard core smokers I know also tended to get in trouble more with the law over stupid stuff like B&E, stealing from cars, shoplifting, etc... Travel to Europe and go to the areas where drugs are allowed, it's normally pretty crappy and crime ridden, I think drug use and a lack of a desire to work go hand in hand, so in the end it's either we pay for them (welfare) or they will get money the easiest way they can...

I'm really undecided on legalizing drugs, in some ways I think it's a good idea, in others bad. I know people who've done drugs for years and kept it in check, others dive right off the deep end and ruin theirs (and those around them) lives. I'm not sure trading Mexicans killing themselves for my house/car being broke in every other year is worth it to me (sorry not a smoker and will never be). If I understand it correctly we legalize pot, pot smokers get drugs somewhat cheaper (normally half the price if Cali is the model), the gov't gets a boat load of new taxes and my neighborhood probably slips alittle and I'm the victim of more crime... And then maybe we should touch on the aspect of drug use that happens because it's illegal, legalizing it might make those types advance to the next thing purly because it isn't so cool any more.

Maybe we should allow California to legalize it and see what happens, let them be the test bed for the rest of us...

[El Jefe]

Mriddick, I've never heard of a company that had the policy of absolutely no drinking. Can you give me a few examples?

[Ruskiegunlover]

the problem with piss tests and pot being legal is this: alcohol is out of your system within 12 hours. POT ISN'T. So, its illegal for, lets say, airline pilots and cops to smoke pot on duty. How do you know then? Take a piss test that will only tell you if they have smoked pot within the last 6 months? How will THAT work? Will some professions, people not be allowed to smoke? But all others? What about teachers? Do you want your kids teacher taking a pot break? DO YOU WANT KIDS SMOKING POT EVEN MORE BRAZENLY? On their way to school? During lunch? Believe me, if legal, kids will get ten times more brazen about it. Cops don't stop kids for smoking, and if pot is legal like cigarettes, then will cops suddenly have another workload to moniter? Think they'll treat pot any differently then smokes? NO, they won't. Then I, as a high school history teacher, will be teaching doped up high school kids. And, it will STILL BE MY FAULT when YOUR doped up kids flunks, right?

But again, who will be the final arbiter of who is allowed to smoke pot, or more so, WHAT PROFESSIONS? Is it discrimination to allow some to, but not others?

What about the cop who tests positive to smoking pot? He may not have done it on the job, we'll never know. Maybe it was 3 months ago......or the surgeon, or the judge, or the airline pilot.....THESE people will still be kept from smoking pot by laws, regulations. And we will STILL have court cases over this.

Our country is surely going to hell in a handbasket.

[El Jefe]

the problem with piss tests and pot being legal is this: alcohol is out of your system within 12 hours. POT ISN'T. So, its illegal for, lets say, airline pilots and cops to smoke pot on duty. How do you know then? Take a piss test that will only tell you if they have smoked pot within the last 6 months? How will THAT work? Will some professions, people not be allowed to smoke? But all others? What about teachers? Do you want your kids teacher taking a pot break? DO YOU WANT KIDS SMOKING POT EVEN MORE BRAZENLY? On their way to school? During lunch? Believe me, if legal, kids will get ten times more brazen about it. Cops don't stop kids for smoking, and if pot is legal like cigarettes, then will cops suddenly have another workload to moniter? Think they'll treat pot any differently then smokes? NO, they won't. Then I, as a high school history teacher, will be teaching doped up high school kids. And, it will STILL BE MY FAULT when YOUR doped up kids flunks, right?

But again, who will be the final arbiter of who is allowed to smoke pot, or more so, WHAT PROFESSIONS? Is it discrimination to allow some to, but not others?

What about the cop who tests positive to smoking pot? He may not have done it on the job, we'll never know. Maybe it was 3 months ago......or the surgeon, or the judge, or the airline pilot.....THESE people will still be kept from smoking pot by laws, regulations. And we will STILL have court cases over this.

Our country is surely going to hell in a handbasket.

Dude, you need to chill a bit, you're way too wound up about this.

It would have to be handled like alcohol. Also it being illegal doesn't seem to be slowing any body down, it just leads to other problems.

I don't think pot is anywhere close to being this countries biggest issue either.

[mriddick]

Mriddick, I've never heard of a company that had the policy of absolutely no drinking. Can you give me a few examples?
I think you're confused, I said no alcohol in the system on a company drug/alcohol test, not a policy of no absolutely no alcohol (although I bet there are some out there). I'd go ask your boss what happens if you get into an accident on the clock then fail a OSHA drug alcohol test due to alcohol. I bet you'd be fired and I've seen this happen at International paper, Ownes Illinios, AFS amongst other places. As ruskiegunlover has pointed out the issue is alcohol is gone in 12 hours, how long is pot in your system tested for? One of the major issues in california with their legalization laws is workers are losing their jobs due to testing positive, there are stories in the news about this already.

Ruskiegunlover has also hit on the other aspect, kids and pot. One question I've asked in the past when people talk of legaliztion is whether they want their kids or grandkids smoking it, 9 times out of 10 it's no. But that's exactly what you are saying, except maybe you have someone elses kids in mind when doing so :) . Again I'm not exactly against the idea, I'd just like to know what's in it for me (as a nonsmoker). I think crime around me goes up, I don't think the gov't shrinks (it has more money), I doubt the police force will shrink (more money plus more petty crime), more slackers for me to pay for (again many drug users are not the most productive).

[mriddick]

http://www.mcclatchydc.com/2010/03/24/90969/california-justices-say-legal.html


Tens of thousands of Californians are obtaining medical marijuana recommendations from physicians so they can use pot without fear of arrest.

But they still can lose their jobs.

California's Proposition 215, passed by voters in 1996, approved the use of marijuana for a wide range of ailments. But it doesn't require employers to make accommodations or waive any workplace rules for legal cannabis users.

And a state Supreme Court ruling affirmed that medical pot use can get you fired by a disapproving employer.

disapproving employer.

Christian Hughes, 33, just found that out.

For five years, he was a manager at a senior citizens apartment complex near Redding. Unknown to residents, he used marijuana to dull pain from a jaw shattered in a car accident.

Recently, a new company bought the apartment complex and ordered drug testing for employees. "I tried to explain my situation," Hughes said.

After his test results came in last month, he was dismissed.

Joe Elford, legal counsel for Americans for Safe Access, an advocate for medical marijuana patients, said people such as Hughes don't have much protection.

"The California Supreme Court gave carte blanche for employers to discriminate against medical marijuana patients," Elford said. "However, that doesn't mean they have to."

Elford argued before the state Supreme Court on behalf of Gary Ross in a landmark 2008 case.

Ross, of Carmichael, was fired after 10 days as a lead systems administrator for a Sacramento firm, RagingWire Telecommunications.

He told a clinician performing a drug test as a condition of his hiring that he had a medical marijuana recommendation for back pain and spasms from injuries sustained in the U.S. Air Force. When the results came in, Ross was out of work.

The Supreme Court rejected his argument that he was protected from job discrimination under the California Fair Employment and Housing Act as a qualified pot patient under Proposition 215.

"Nothing in the text or history of the (Proposition 215) Compassionate Use Act suggests that the voters intended the measure to address the respective rights and obligations of employers and employees," the court ruled.

Advocates for private employers argued strenuously against legislation – advanced after the court decision – to ban discrimination in hiring or firing of workers for being medical marijuana patients.

The California Chamber of Commerce fought the legislation, Assembly Bill 2279 by then-Assemblyman Mark Leno, D-San Francisco. It hasn't eased its opposition to workplace protections for medical pot.

"It really boils down to this: An employer's right to maintain a drug-free workplace is critical," said Denise Davis, the California Chamber's vice president for media relations. "It protects the safety of all workers and limits exposure to potentially costly litigation."

Sacramento's largest employer – the state of California – has no policy in place when it comes to medical marijuana, said Lynelle Jolley, a spokeswoman for the Department of Personnel Administration.

Forty state agencies can dismiss employees based on tests for "reasonable suspicion" of drug or alcohol use. They include the Highway Patrol, Department of Corrections and Rehabilitation, Department of Motor Vehicles, Lottery Commission, California Public Employees' Retirement System and Museum of Science and Industry.

The U.S. Department of Transportation declared last year that workers from aircraft pilots to school bus drivers can't legally smoke pot, even in states allowing medical use.

In Rancho Cordova, GenCorp Inc., a major regional employer that relies heavily on federal contracts, has a strict anti-marijuana policy.

"GenCorp and its company, Aerojet, are a drug-free workplace," said spokeswoman Linda Cutler. "We do not accommodate medical marijuana. Under federal law it is still an illegal drug, and we are a federal contractor."

The Bee, another large employer in the region, requires job candidates to pass a drug test as a condition of hiring and makes no allowances for people with a medical pot recommendation. Drivers of heavy trucks face random tests. Employees from press operators to reporters may be subject to discipline for on-the-job accidents attributed to drugs, alcohol or performance-altering medications.

The pot issue recently arose in Michigan when a Walmart store fired Joseph Casias, an employee who had been using marijuana under Michigan's medical pot law for pain from sinus cancer and a brain tumor. Casias claimed he never came to work high. But he was fired this month after being tested for drugs following an on-the-job knee injury.

Leno, now a state senator, still hopes for a California solution governing medical pot in the workplace.

"When voters supported Proposition 215, the Compassionate Use Act, they didn't intend use of medical marijuana only for those who are unemployed," Leno said.

His 2008 bill would have allowed employers to fire workers who were impaired on the job. But it would have protected employees from being targeted because they have a medical pot recommendation or test positive for marijuana.

The bill passed both houses of the Legislature but was vetoed by Gov. Arnold Schwarzenegger.



Read more: http://www.mcclatchydc.com/2010/03/24/90969/california-justices-say-legal.html#ixzz0uA09aN6O

[Blacksmith]

All though I agree that legalizing drugs would strike a good blow at the problem, it would not completely solve it. these sick bastards come over here, kidnap our children and take them back to Mexico. where god only knows what happens too them. that and they are experts at theft, rape, murder etc.
but of course if you speak out against it, the current administration will label you a right wing extremist and a racist.

[Ruskiegunlover]

ALSO, what of the risks to second hand people? Go to a concert, or ride a bus, and have a guy smoking a joint next to you for 10 minutes or during an entire concert......then, you get a randomn drug test at work and get fired. What of THAT? THAT cannot happen with alcohol. And I speak from experience on this. Went to a concert (pink floyde experience) on a thursday night, had a few wiffs of pot from someone smoking near me, and the following tuesday I flunked a piss test after injuring myself on the job (chipped my tooth). It showed a trace of thc in my system. FURHTER testing showed I was clean, but believe me, it can happen. I got three days suspension for it, while they tested me thoroughly....... And some professions are not very understanding on this.....

[Ruskiegunlover]

What happens when one of the professions NOT allowed to smoke gets a thc trace after a piss test? Say a doctor stands in line at a hotdog stand, gets 3 or 4 wiffs over a guys shoulder......What if he has not smoked, and never has, but sat next to a guy at a concert like me? Or a teacher? or an airline pilot? If people are walking the streets smoking, it would be pretty damned hard NOT to get wiffs......so what then?

You guys STILL thinking that legalizing it will just erase all legal issues?

Then you must be high......

[alismith]

Chances are most workers in the US can be fired now if alcohol is detected in their blood on a test (seen it happen at numerous places). Most places I go to have a zero tolerance when it comes to alcohol/drug on the job testing.


In my job, if we are even stopped for anything related to DUI/Driving While Impaired, or any alcohol-related incident, we are subject to immediate firing. You don't even have to be found guilty; just stopped and cited is enough. (And all driving stops that are for reasons other than speeding, are reported in the local papers.):smiley08:

[El Jefe]

What happens when one of the professions NOT allowed to smoke gets a thc trace after a piss test? Say a doctor stands in line at a hotdog stand, gets 3 or 4 wiffs over a guys shoulder......What if he has not smoked, and never has, but sat next to a guy at a concert like me? Or a teacher? or an airline pilot? If people are walking the streets smoking, it would be pretty damned hard NOT to get wiffs......so what then?

You guy STILL thinking that legalizing it will just erase all legal issues?

Then you must be high......

...........and you're obviously an idiot. I'm not going to discuss this with you because your views are over the top and down right stupid. Later.

[Ruskiegunlover]

Ok, run from the discussion then. Tell me what i posted above that is just 'out there'...??? Think the above scenario is impossible? Please, tell me how? Oh, thats right, you support legalizing it, and like many idiots I know who want to, you just think all our problems will drift away in a haze of pot smoke once its done. Yup, thats right, NO issues with legalization at all right? No more litigation, no laws to pass and enforce....Everyone can do it, all the time, and we'll have no problems....quite the contrary actually.....so what was that? Oh, yeah, the REALITY setting in for you. Believe me, I don't give a good shit about YOU or anyone else throwing there life away, I care about ME having to pay for it. And, I point out serious flaws in the high-school-like thinking that all will just be ok if only we legalize it. You obviously have not thought it out further then how much and how cheap it will be for you if legalized......

[El Jefe]

All though I agree that legalizing drugs would strike a good blow at the problem, it would not completely solve it. these sick bastards come over here, kidnap our children and take them back to Mexico. where god only knows what happens too them. that and they are experts at theft, rape, murder etc.
but of course if you speak out against it, the current administration will label you a right wing extremist and a racist.

Yep, we need to come as close as is possible to locking the southern border down. I don't give a shit if we have to mine the damned thing and put a machinegun nest every 100 yards. The situation we have now is insane and no administration truely concerned with national security would allow a situation as it now exists.

But of course in this day and age being concerned about law and order is racist.

[O.S.O.K.]

Legalizing pot is only one part of the overall long-term solution IMHO. Also need to control our borders, reform the laws as mentioned - employers would need to begin to treat pot the same as alcohol. We would need to collect all of the illegals currently in the country and deport them - they can take their anchor kids with them... or not. If they choose to take the kids, the kids lose citizenship. We would need a Constitutional amendment to get this done properly.

And the list of other reforms needed in this country are long - taxes, term limits, bloated government cuts, inefficient military reorganization, law simplification, etc.

[Solidus-snake]

Ok Im not entirely sure but heres my takes.

Yes I think legalizing pot will solve several problems. Fuck, 6 out of 10 people in my area grow the shit, and 8 out of 10 smoke it.

Dont want your kids smoking it? Slap a 21 age limit on it. YES theyll still do it, just like they do alcohol and STILL do pot right now though its illegal. No you wont be teaching doped up kids, because their asses will be sent home, just like a kid whos intoxicated would be.

Smoking a joint in public? Pretty sure your not allowed to walk around the streets guzzling a fifth of Jack, last I checked anyways. Impose the same laws regarding pot as there are regarding alcohol. Or at least similiar.

[El Jefe]

Legalizing pot is only one part of the overall long-term solution IMHO. Also need to control our borders, reform the laws as mentioned - employers would need to begin to treat pot the same as alcohol. We would need to collect all of the illegals currently in the country and deport them - they can take their anchor kids with them... or not. If they choose to take the kids, the kids lose citizenship. We would need a Constitutional amendment to get this done properly.

And the list of other reforms needed in this country are long - taxes, term limits, bloated government cuts, inefficient military reorganization, law simplification, etc.

We also need to get harsh with employers who are knowingly hiring illegals.

[El Jefe]

Ok Im not entirely sure but heres my takes.

Yes I think legalizing pot will solve several problems. Fuck, 6 out of 10 people in my area grow the shit, and 8 out of 10 smoke it.

Dont want your kids smoking it? Slap a 21 age limit on it. YES theyll still do it, just like they do alcohol and STILL do pot right now though its illegal. No you wont be teaching doped up kids, because their asses will be sent home, just like a kid whos intoxicated would be.

Smoking a joint in public? Pretty sure your not allowed to walk around the streets guzzling a fifth of Jack, last I checked anyways. Impose the same laws regarding pot as there are regarding alcohol. Or at least similiar.

Oh sure, inject logic into the conversation. That's not fair.

[Solidus-snake]

I know, I just get sick and tired of hearing people go off on the extremes and not stop to think wit der bwains for a second.

[El Jefe]

I know, I just get sick and tired of hearing people go off on the extremes and not stop to think wit der bwains for a second.

Your President would call you intolerant! :hitler::turtle:

[gunhack]

I can brew my own beer.. I can ferment my own wine... why cant i grow my own herb (for personal consumption)..? it's madness...

saw a "drugs Inc" about heroin... the best approach seemed to be that of the Swiss.. treat the addiction like a disease (duh).. provide it as medication in safe clinics.. allows additional follow up in regards to mental health issues and in regards to other disease.. the overall impact on their society is much less than the alternative...

[Ruskiegunlover]

again, the time it is in your system is a BIG problem. If alcohol stayed in your system THAT long, IT TOO would be a much larger problem. And, if the guy sitting next to you enjoying a sam adams caused YOUR blood acholhol content to rise, then it would be a problem.....

Sorry, what I said makes sense. Its obvious problems with legalizing it.

[Blacksmith]

again, the time it is in your system is a BIG problem. If alcohol stayed in your system THAT long, IT TOO would be a much larger problem. And, if the guy sitting next to you enjoying a sam adams caused YOUR blood acholhol content to rise, then it would be a problem.....

Sorry, what I said makes sense. Its obvious problems with legalizing it.

You’re arguing that someone could just light right up on the street in front of a hotdog stand. and now you are trying to convince us that people can have a beer wherever they want. It’s a stupid argument and nobody pro or con is buying it.
IMO
If you are in a job that requires drug testing and you are dumb enough to go to a party and catch a contact high. than you deserve what you get.

[Solidus-snake]

You’re arguing that someone could just light right up on the street in front of a hotdog stand. and now you are trying to convince us that people can have a beer wherever they want. It’s a stupid argument and nobody pro or con is buying it.
IMO
If you are in a job that requires drug testing and you are dumb enough to go to a party and catch a contact high. than you deserve what you get.

Are you really a blacksmith?

[El Jefe]

You’re arguing that someone could just light right up on the street in front of a hotdog stand. and now you are trying to convince us that people can have a beer wherever they want. It’s a stupid argument and nobody pro or con is buying it.
IMO
If you are in a job that requires drug testing and you are dumb enough to go to a party and catch a contact high. than you deserve what you get.

I'm pretty damned sure that simply smelling pot smoke as you walk down the street won't cause one to fail a drug test. Just thought that needed to be injected into the conversation.

[Ruskiegunlover]

well, sorry, I have personally experienced how a few wiffs at a concert, enough to really get the smell of it, gets into your system. Again, just days later. It was about 25 minutes until the end of my shift at cessna, I had been shooting rivets with a guy, safety glasses had slid down my nose. I had a rivet gun in my left hand, with a piece of metal sticking out below my hand, and i raised my left hand up to use my left hand pinky finger to push my glasses up my nose. Bottom of rivet gun hit my tooth, chipped it. Didn't even bleed, and I shouldn't have reported it...it blew up into a huge deal, with the company breaking the law and my right to privacy....but, thats niether here nor there.

THAT DAY, about 3 hours later, I had a piss test. Came up positive for THC. I was embarrassed as hell, angry as hell at my luck. It did not show up in a hair folicle test, but then again maybe I was lucky. They tested me for alcohol and THC.....I new I would pass both...little did I know.

Sorry, the entire pot issues is so blown up with myths, and so many people who have never experienced what I did claim that second hand doesn't show up, but again, sorry-it does.

Ha! Yeah, we'll legalize it, and people will follow the rules on POT right? Peopel drink in public, people drink and drive, people break smoking laws ALL THE TIME. But, these same law breakers who already smoke pot will suddenly decide NOT to break rules at work or laws, and smoke only in the confines of their own home. SURE. Since you know this, maybe you can also clear up for us who REALLY killed kennedy? Because again, you are obviously high.


AGAIN, I apologize. Don't mean to inject common sense and reality into this conversation......

[El Jefe]

Sorry but I simply don't believe your tale. Arnulf would be proud of your effort tho.

[Ruskiegunlover]

don't really care. I'd invite you to try it. It would seem you or someone you know smokes pot......get together with them some night, sit in a living room with them for a few hours, maybe watch a movie, sit next to them maybe for 30 minutes while the smoke. Then, about 5 days later, go get a piss test. And post your results here. I know what you'll find. I got a three day suspension, and during that three days went and talked with two lawyers (over different, but involved issue), and went and got an independant drug screening with hair follicle test. Came up clear. They called three days later, told me to come back in. They had tried to coerce me into signing a document releasing any and all past, present, and future medical records to them, and I refused. It was illegal, as I found out later. When I came back from the 3 day vaca, I found out my foreman who had gotten quite irate at me for refusing to sign their bullshit document releasing my medical records had spoken of my medical issues (diabetes) on our shop floor with several people (violating my right to privacy). I told HR about it, they just about RAN back to the HR office, immediatly called my foreman and the line forman (suit) into the office for an ass chewing. THAT felt great. My foreman always had it in for me after that, the big union asshole he was (I was non-union), but I was a damned good worker so he never had grounds. He tried to set me up, but it failed. He moved on, and for my last year there I had an awesome foreman......I left cessna august 8th, 2008, right before the layoffs began, to finish my education degree. Picked my BA up two days ago......

Ha, really, go try it. Something tells me though that you would probably fail a piss and hair follicle all on your own.

[El Jefe]

Nope, I haven't smoked pot in a long time, but, unlike you, I do know something on the topic.

[Ruskiegunlover]

ok, well, try it. Prove me wrong. In the end, I don't give a shit what you think. I know what I experienced. And that experience tells me legalizing it would cause massive probems.

[Ruskiegunlover]

and of coarse you know more about it, because you did it......ha. You didn't give a shit then about the possible ramifications of doing it, as you don't now. You 'know' that second hand isn't a problem, just as you new 'then', in your pot smoking hayday that it wasn't a problem. Kind of like the alcoholic who 'knows' drinking doesn't impair his judgement. Sorry, I have known too many outspoken, immature pot smokers who KNOW it cures everything, does NOTHING to your health, and is a wonderful thing. Only, the few who have since given it up now see how wrong they were. 1 good friend of mine recently gave it up, and now admits it DOES have addicting qualities. He basically admits he went through a withdrawal, and had a really hard time giving it up.

[El Jefe]

and of coarse you know more about it, because you did it......ha. You didn't give a shit then about the possible ramifications of doing it, as you don't now. You 'know' that second hand isn't a problem, just as you new 'then', in your pot smoking hayday that it wasn't a problem. Kind of like the alcoholic who 'knows' drinking doesn't impair his judgement. Sorry, I have known too many outspoken, immature pot smokers who KNOW it cures everything, does NOTHING to your health, and is a wonderful thing. Only, the few who have since given it up now see how wrong they were. 1 good friend of mine recently gave it up, and now admits it DOES have addicting qualities. He basically admits he went through a withdrawal, and had a really hard time giving it up.

You sir, are a kook, and full of shit to boot. If you actually knew anything about me or the subject, you'd realize just how absurd your take really is.

[Ruskiegunlover]

Ha, well, again, go get a piss test. Try it. Sorry Jefferson, but on the second hand thing you are mistaken. I experienced it, first hand, and it turned me even more against legalization. The second hand effects will have an impact on a lot of innocent people.

And as a teacher, I don't want ANY positive THC tests......so I stay away from a lot of people and places.

[O.S.O.K.]

You're a teacher? OMG

[AKTexas]

Gunmen kill 17 at party in Mexico
Human life is way too cheap to the Mexican drug cartels.
Officials say gunmen kill 17 at party in Mexico


17 gunned down in Mexico fiesta slaughter AFP/File – A Mexican Federal Policeman keeps watch during the presentation to the press of alleged drug traffickers …
By OSCAR VILLALBA, Associated Press Writer Oscar Villalba, Associated Press Writer – Sun Jul 18, 2:30 pm ET

PIEDRAS NEGRAS, Mexico – Gunmen stormed a party in northern Mexico on Sunday and massacred 17 people, authorities said.

The gunmen arrived at the party in Torreon in several cars and opened fire without saying a word, the Coahuila state Attorney General's Office said in statement. At least 18 people were wounded.

Several of the victims were young and some were women, but their identities and ages had not yet been determined.

Investigators had no suspects or information on a possible motive.

Police found more than 120 bullet casings at the scene, most of them from .223 caliber weapons.

Coahuila is among several northern states that has seen a spike in drug-related violence that authorities attribute to a fight between the Gulf cartel and its former enforcers, known as the Zetas.

In May, gunmen killed eight people at a bar in Torreon. Later that month, a television station and the offices of a local newspaper came under fire. A pregnant woman was wounded in the attack on the offices of Noticias de El Sol de la Laguna.

Across northern Mexico, there have been increasing reports of mass shootings at parties, bars and rehab clinics.

In the worst such massacre this year, gunmen raided a drug rehab center in the northern city of Chihuahua and killed 19 people. In January, gunmen barged into a private party in the border city of Ciudad Juarez and killed 15, many of them high school or university students. Relatives say it was a case of mistaken identity, while state officials claim someone at the party was targeted, although they have not said who it was.

The massacre in Torreon came three days after the first successful car bombing by drug cartels introduced a new threat in Mexico's raging drug war.

Drug gang members detonated the bomb after luring federal police and paramedics to the scene in Ciudad Juarez by shooting a bound man dressed in police uniform and calling in a false report of a wounded officer. Three people were killed, including a federal officer and a private doctor who had rushed to the scene to help.

Officials say 24,800 people have been killed in drug gang violence since President Felipe Calderon declared war on the cartels in December 2006, deploying soldiers and federal police to fight traffickers in their strongholds.

The government attributes much of the rise in violence to infighting among drug gangs whose leadership has been splintered after the arrest of kingpins.

Back to the topic at hand.

[Ruskiegunlover]

This is an online gun forum, not a classroom. Something I do for fun, not for a living. The effort I put into this, as a consequence, is not compareable to that which I put into a classroom. And, like a classic liberal, THAT is just an effort at changing the subject and argument from that which you CANNOT win to a different subject. I am a damned good teacher, and I do not indoctrinate students in socialism. That alone makes me a better teacher.

Ha, tricky quasi-liberal. Your evil plan almost worked......lets get back on the topic at hand......

[AKTexas]

This is an online gun forum, not a classroom. Something I do for fun, not for a living. The effort I put into this, as a consequence, is not compareable to that which I put into a classroom. And, like a classic liberal, THAT is just an effort at changing the subject and argument from that which you CANNOT win to a different subject. I am a damned good teacher, and I do not indoctrinate students in socialism. That alone makes me a better teacher.

Ha, tricky quasi-liberal. Your evil plan almost worked......lets get back on the topic at hand......

This is the same subject.You and Jefferson are arguing back and forth trying to convince one another that you are right and he is wrong.Agree that you both are right with your own point of view and STFU.

Offer a real solution to the issue not inject your own self centered views and experiences.

I can see validity with your post as much as I can see his.Taking one extreme for another is not going to solve the issue.Right now it just a pissing contest of who can win the internet.

[Ruskiegunlover]

Ha, fair enough. I am done. Jefferson, man, he is right. I apologize, and hope I did not get too personal. We both have the right to be wrong, as an uncle of mine used to say.

[Blacksmith]

Looks like allot of post where lost yesterday. and I’m not going to try to replace them.
but to answer Solidus-snakes question again. I do blacksmithing strictly as a hobby. I’m retired from the construction industry.

As for the rest of this train wreck, I really don’t understand why every time this legalization debate comes up, there is always someone that feels it is necessary to launch ad hominem attacks. rather you realize it or not, some will defend others liberties rather it effects them or not. perhaps if more would be concerned whith others liberties, rather than just their own. we would not be in this predicament of requiring our government to force our will on others. that’s called Fascism (http://encarta.msn.com/dictionary_561512104/fascism.html) by the way.

[yankeedog]

Back to the topic at hand.
Whats to talk about? The mexicans are about to get an ass whoopin if they don't step back!
I would rather talk about pot.
I just can't believe the same people who talk down about legalizing pot are the ones who get on a weekend drunk and can't remember anything about it, but think its cool and funny???

[Ruskiegunlover]

I talk down on it, but as an insulin dependant diabetic since feb. 14, 1991-I have never been drunk. Sure, I drink....but never to excess.....

Sorry, we'll agree to disagree on this. I have solid opinions about this....I would say that in the final estimation, and I hate to say this-I am for legalization as long as the same laws protect non-users.....both the people AND their tax dollers. I should not have to pay ANYTHING for anothers mistake. Maybe put half the taxes collected from pot sales into addition programs, AND NOT raid the public treasury for it.

Heartless, I know....but its my money too.

[AKTexas]

I talk down on it, but as an insulin dependant diabetic since feb. 14, 1991-I have never been drunk. Sure, I drink....but never to excess.....

Sorry, we'll agree to disagree on this. I have solid opinions about this....I would say that in the final estimation, and I hate to say this-I am for legalization as long as the same laws protect non-users.....both the people AND their tax dollers. I should not have to pay ANYTHING for anothers mistake. Maybe put half the taxes collected from pot sales into addition programs, AND NOT raid the public treasury for it.

Heartless, I know....but its my money too.

I'm on the side of there should be no public assistant programs for any of the vices,drugs alcohol,gambling etc.Tax the hell out of it and use the money for more important things.I have no sympathy for the addicts.The knowledge is there your choice to use or not use don't ask everyone else to help you when you could have helped yourself.

You don't see any public help for the gun nuts...


Whats to talk about? The mexicans are about to get an ass whoopin if they don't step back!
I would rather talk about pot.
I just can't believe the same people who talk down about legalizing pot are the ones who get on a weekend drunk and can't remember anything about it, but think its cool and funny???

And who is going to do the ass whoopin?Our government has done nothing,are you going to come south to the border and fight the zetas?Are you going to leave the comforts of your home?Talk is cheap,action cost lives.

[Dr. Gonzo GED]

well, sorry, I have personally experienced how a few wiffs at a concert, enough to really get the smell of it, gets into your system. Again, just days later. It was about 25 minutes until the end of my shift at cessna, I had been shooting rivets with a guy, safety glasses had slid down my nose. I had a rivet gun in my left hand, with a piece of metal sticking out below my hand, and i raised my left hand up to use my left hand pinky finger to push my glasses up my nose. Bottom of rivet gun hit my tooth, chipped it. Didn't even bleed, and I shouldn't have reported it...it blew up into a huge deal, with the company breaking the law and my right to privacy....but, thats niether here nor there.

THAT DAY, about 3 hours later, I had a piss test. Came up positive for THC. I was embarrassed as hell, angry as hell at my luck. It did not show up in a hair folicle test, but then again maybe I was lucky. They tested me for alcohol and THC.....I new I would pass both...little did I know.

Sorry, the entire pot issues is so blown up with myths, and so many people who have never experienced what I did claim that second hand doesn't show up, but again, sorry-it does.

Ha! Yeah, we'll legalize it, and people will follow the rules on POT right? Peopel drink in public, people drink and drive, people break smoking laws ALL THE TIME. But, these same law breakers who already smoke pot will suddenly decide NOT to break rules at work or laws, and smoke only in the confines of their own home. SURE. Since you know this, maybe you can also clear up for us who REALLY killed kennedy? Because again, you are obviously high.


AGAIN, I apologize. Don't mean to inject common sense and reality into this conversation......

So you poped yourself in the face with a rivet gun, and it was some stoners fault?

Whatever bud. Common sense and reality are obviously way out of your league.

[Ruskiegunlover]

well, again, try to change the subject like a liberal and deflect the conversation. I did not say I was on pot when that happened. It was the end of a ten hour shift in a non-ac metal building, sweating my eyes out over the summer. I was tired. But the point is, a few wiffs DID show on a piss test 5 days later.

Again, fine, you all smoke the hell out of it. But how about NO unemployment if laid off for drugs or alcohol, and no tax funded social programs to help addicts? That would be fine by me, as long as I have the right to shoot addicts breaking into my home, looking to rob and steal for another hit......

Again, its not my choice or problem. And one of the biggest problems I have with it is that our liberal society will legalize it eventually, then start creating a tax funded addict program. The libs will talk about how its everyones responsibilioty to help these people, we should all contribute.......no, we shouldn't. Thats my major problem with it. I have to admit that watching cops, or the news, and seeing the vast amounts of money poured into pot by LE makes me a bit sick. Helocopters, cruisers, police, DEA, dogs, firearms, TONS of money to stop self-destructive people. Let them self destruct I guess.....

[El Jefe]

Put ......down .....the .....shovel.

[Ruskiegunlover]

how am I digging a hole? I admit, my opinion on this has been SLOWLY coming around to legalization, slowly, and I struggle with a lot of things with it......

[Solidus-snake]

Looks like allot of post where lost yesterday. and I’m not going to try to replace them.
but to answer Solidus-snakes question again. I do blacksmithing strictly as a hobby. I’m retired from the construction industry.

As for the rest of this train wreck, I really don’t understand why every time this legalization debate comes up, there is always someone that feels it is necessary to launch ad hominem attacks. rather you realize it or not, some will defend others liberties rather it effects them or not. perhaps if more would be concerned whith others liberties, rather than just their own. we would not be in this predicament of requiring our government to force our will on others. that’s called Fascism (http://encarta.msn.com/dictionary_561512104/fascism.html) by the way.

Yeah sorry I know thas completely off topic but I was wondering because ive been wanting to get into it as a hobby as well. Ill make a thread.

[yankeedog]

Maybe put half the taxes collected from pot sales into addition programs, AND NOT raid the public treasury for it.
AGAIN............... taxes from what???
What are you going to tax, rolling papers, roach clips, Chinese rolling machines what????


then start creating a tax funded addict program
Not everybody considers themselves an addict, alot of people do it because it makes you feel good and don't want help from it!!

[Dr. Gonzo GED]

AGAIN............... taxes from what???
What are you going to tax, rolling papers, roach clips, Chinese rolling machines what????


Not everybody considers themselves an addict, alot of people do it because it makes you feel good and don't want help from it!!

Weed. They would tax the weed itself. Just like they do with alcohol and cigarretes.

All the ohter things on your list are already subject to sales tax anyways.

What is the atmosphere like on your planet?

[El Jefe]

Weed. They would tax the weed itself. Just like they do with alcohol and cigarretes.

All the ohter things on your list are already subject to sales tax anyways.

What is the atmosphere like on your planet?

The tobacco companies would be a natural to grow and market marajuana. And the gubment would make a killing in taxes, fees and such, plus by not having to prosecute and incarcerate every poor slub busted for pot you'd save a lot of tax money.

[AKTexas]

The tobacco companies would be a natural to grow and market marajuana. And the gubment would make a killing in taxes, fees and such, plus by not having to prosecute and incarcerate every poor slub busted for pot you'd save a lot of tax money.

Wonder what the aftermath would be for those incarcerated for drugs offenses?Would they have to remain in prison or would they be given a walk?

[El Jefe]

Wonder what the aftermath would be for those incarcerated for drugs offenses?Would they have to remain in prison or would they be given a walk?

Well, we're talking about marijuana, anyone in jail for just that would be free to go.

[AKTexas]

Well, we're talking about marijuana, anyone in jail for just that would be free to go.

If it were only just marijuana...This should be a new topic.

[Krupski]

And cut their income by 90%, are you insane? Exactly.

[AKTexas]

I was talking with my brother about this shit,he is by no means a punk but he is very concerned with this matter exploding into something closer to home.My mother is surprised the hell out of me when she said we should bomb their ass back to the stone age like we did to Japan.

I have never heard he so radical about shit like that before.

[alismith]

I was talking with my brother about this shit,he is by no means a punk but he is very concerned with this matter exploding into something closer to home.My mother is surprised the hell out of me when she said we should bomb their ass back to the stone age like we did to Japan.

I have never heard he so radical about shit like that before.

Is your mom running for a government position? She's got my vote if she does.:thumbsup:

[AKTexas]

Is your mom running for a government position? She's got my vote if she does.:thumbsup:

Na but she really surprised me with that one.She is more liberal than conservative.More middle ground.

[yankeedog]

Weed. They would tax the weed itself. Just like they do with alcohol and cigarretes.

All the ohter things on your list are already subject to sales tax anyways.

What is the atmosphere like on your planet?
So.... they are going to tax weed that I grow myself?
You do understand a person can grow enough pot in their basement to supply themselves?
HOW ARE THEY GOING TO TAX THAT?
The government doesn't tax vegetables you grow for yourself so I see no tax benifit from pot either?
Maybe im missing the tax point I don't know????

[Blacksmith]

So.... they are going to tax weed that I grow myself?
You do understand a person can grow enough pot in their basement to supply themselves?
HOW ARE THEY GOING TO TAX THAT?
The government doesn't tax vegetables you grow for yourself so I see no tax benifit from pot either?
Maybe im missing the tax point I don't know????
You can make beer yourself too.
Do you? Or do you just go to the store and pay the taxes on it like most do?

[mriddick]

I guess there's no hope to keep the thread off the legalization issue....So for those who support legalization can I ask what's in it for the average non pot smoking joe?

[AK-J]

I guess there's no hope to keep the thread off the legalization issue....So for those who support legalization can I ask what's in it for the average non pot smoking joe?

-Less tax money spent on enforcement
-Potential new tax revenue
-Loved ones could legally use to releive pain cause by debilitating disease/condition (My mom has advanced MS)

I have no interest in consuming weed myself. I've tried it a long time ago, and it is not for me. Like any drug it can be harmful if abused (not so much for overdosing, but life ruining decissions made while on it). However, it is not even close to the same ballpark as the harder stuff, yet is treated as so by the law and some in the general public.

I think that it should be legal for adults to consume weed. Slap an age restriction on it, and tax the trade of it (ie like alcohol and tabacco). Law against driving while impared will still exist. Have laws about using it in public like they do with booze.

I don't think it will change the number of folks that use it all that much. There will still be jobs that require one to pass drug exams.

[El Jefe]

I guess there's no hope to keep the thread off the legalization issue....So for those who support legalization can I ask what's in it for the average non pot smoking joe?

Taking billions out of the coffers of drug cartels isn't benefit enough for you?

[Ruskiegunlover]

Again, I am coming around to it....but I am telling you, there will still be massive problems. It will not be a cure all. I do think that if done, in the end, it will be a lot like alcohol-beer especially. I know some poeple who brew it themselves, but the VAST majority of people are too lazy to, so they buy it. It would be the same with pot. Plus, while the crap grows, they'd have to get their fix somewhere, and thats where commercially grown and distributed pot comes in. They tax it. PLUS, I would predict a large industry growing up around it, and with a lot of competition comes low prices. Ha, we'd roll back the price of a joint quite a bit......

I have to laugh at this, I am sorry. I think in the end, I will be proven right in time. I do think we would have just as serious of issues with pot as we do with alcohol.....

[Blacksmith]

I guess there's no hope to keep the thread off the legalization issue....So for those who support legalization can I ask what's in it for the average non pot smoking joe?

Like I said in a previous post. If more were concerned with others liberties rather than just their own, we might not be in this predicament. after all, it is supposed to be “justice and liberty for all“ and not “Justice and liberty for all those I approve of“
About the only thing you will get is preserving your own liberty. because if you stomp out others liberties, sooner or later it will come back to you. “What goes around comes around“.

[yankeedog]

I guess there's no hope to keep the thread off the legalization issue....So for those who support legalization can I ask what's in it for the average non pot smoking joe?
Welfare, whats in it for the average hard working joe???


But anyway a person can supply themselves with pot pretty easy.
Have you ever tried to grow enough tobacco in your yard to smoke all year or set up a whiskey distillery?
Sure there will be some lazy asses who have to run to the store for marijuana but the way the government has stuffed cigarettes with chemicals I would grow my own.
You only need 8 to 10 plants in the basement to last all year because you don't smoke 20 joints a day like cigarettes.
Not to mention the great hash you could boil out of the stalk!!!!!!!!!

[Blacksmith]

But anyway a person can supply themselves with pot pretty easy.
Have you ever tried to grow enough tobacco in your yard to smoke all year or set up a whiskey distillery?
Sure there will be some lazy asses who have to run to the store for marijuana but the way the government has stuffed cigarettes with chemicals I would grow my own.


I like my scotch aged at least 15 years. I like my beer extra stout and I like my cigars made from the best long fillers on the planet. So If it makes you feel better choking down your homemade swill and smoking your dog shit cigarettes to call me lazy. by all means go right ahead.
:)

[mriddick]

I will start off by saying I'm sort of a right leaning moderate when it comes to drugs. I have waffled back and forth over legalization although I will admit I spend 2 to 3 times normally being anti then pro legalization. At work we've discussed the issue (most are pro legalization) as we've discussed it I've become more doubtful legalization will work in regard to the end goals most claim it would deliver.


-Less tax money spent on enforcement
-Potential new tax revenue
-Loved ones could legally use to releive pain cause by debilitating disease/condition (My mom has advanced MS).

Doesn't one and 2 contradict each other? I mean show me where drugs are legal and the police aren't still out of control... While you are at it you might want to look at where pot is legal and then check into how drug addition is going, it's going up in those places as well, same for crime and a whole host of other social issues the average joe might not want in his neighborhood. As for the health benefits I wonder how well it does work, that is a good argument I don't have any experience with.


Taking billions out of the coffers of drug cartels isn't benefit enough for you?

So drug cartels lose money and I get rob alot more often. I guess the drug cartels losing money isn't a bad thing, I'm not so sure I like the idea of being robbed more often. Travel to Europe to spots where drugs are legal, it's usually pretty slimey and crime ridden areas where they are the most free with the drugs. It's also amongst the most tightly controlled police wise so the whole legalize drug and we gain liberty doesn't play out in the real world (if part of that is measured in lack of "big brother" watching may every move).


Like I said in a previous post. If more were concerned with others liberties rather than just their own, we might not be in this predicament. after all, it is supposed to be “justice and liberty for all“ and not “Justice and liberty for all those I approve of“
About the only thing you will get is preserving your own liberty. because if you stomp out others liberties, sooner or later it will come back to you. “What goes around comes around“.
I would say this might be the best argument, however constitutionally Congress does have such powers to regulate such matters, it is within their powers as traditionally defined. I do not buy a loss of liberty of some self destructive group equals me losing liberty. Again read about loss of real liberty the average joe experiences in the very places drugs are most free to everyone and I'm not sure expanding this liberty equates to a gain for me (a nonsmoking average working guy). I might need to remind most that California is amongst the most free when it comes to drugs in America, they are also amongst the last places most of us would consider free.

The truth of the matter is you can't argue more tax revenue equals less police, that just doesn't make sense as we've come to understand the real world. You also can't argue gov't when they get more money are content with just that and tend to grant people more freedoms, in fact as gov'ts get richer they seem to all want to control more and deliver less in the way of freedoms. I wonder if maybe drugs were made tax free that might be the best of all worlds, let people make all they want, use all they want and keep the gov't out of it... However I bet if that was tried we'd all figure out real quick while our forefathers banned the stuff in the first place, maybe they weren't so dumb after all...

[AK-J]

Doesn't one and 2 contradict each other? I mean show me where drugs are legal and the police aren't still out of control... While you are at it you might want to look at where pot is legal and then check into how drug addition is going, it's going up in those places as well, same for crime and a whole host of other social issues the average joe might not want in his neighborhood. As for the health benefits I wonder how well it does work, that is a good argument I don't have any experience with.

No, how could they contradict each other? If pot was legal, the money would not have to be spent to elimitate it by law enforcement. The courts would not be tied up with prosecuting people the possess it. Jails and prisons would not be as crowded with folks that have been convicted of pot offenses. Sounds like a lot of money would be saved that was spent on enforcing the prohibition of pot.

Taxes collected on the consumption selling of pot would be a plus. Of course there would be enforcement of the tax laws, but it would cost less than the prohabition currently does.

Don't see how that's a contradiction.

[Blacksmith]

I would say this might be the best argument, however constitutionally Congress does have such powers to regulate such matters, it is within their powers as traditionally defined. I do not buy a loss of liberty of some self destructive group equals me losing liberty. Again read about loss of real liberty the average joe experiences in the very places drugs are most free to everyone and I'm not sure expanding this liberty equates to a gain for me (a nonsmoking average working guy). I might need to remind most that California is amongst the most free when it comes to drugs in America, they are also amongst the last places most of us would consider free.


You see things different that I do. I look at the issue as that at one time drugs where legal. They where outlawed and now it has created a black market. Legalization would simply put it back to the way it was. As for you not loosing liberty? and the so called destructive groups? That really can only be defined by the individual. To a hippy tree hugger, anyone that drives a vehicle or uses electricity is the destructive group. If they were to come into power, by your definition, would it be right for them to outlaw vehicles and electricity?
Rather I agree with a group or not. If I force my will and my opinions on them, sooner or later it will come back to bite me.

[yankeedog]

I like my scotch aged at least 15 years. I like my beer extra stout and I like my cigars made from the best long fillers on the planet. So If it makes you feel better choking down your homemade swill and smoking your dog shit cigarettes to call me lazy. by all means go right ahead.
:)
So commercial weed will be better than home grown??

[Blacksmith]

So commercial weed will be better than home grown??
I imagine it would be like comparing rot gut and 15 year old scotch.
or even a Cuban cigar with a US made processed one.
BTW
In all honesty I don’t think the dope is causing as many problems as some make it out to be. but I do think the uneducated welfare group is more likely to use them. They are still going to be on welfare rather they do drugs or not.

[yankeedog]

So commercial bottom of the stalk leaves would be better than home grown dripping buds?
No you can't make scotch better than a company so you have to pay taxes for being inferior to the man and his machine, but thats where its different with weed, While the man sends the bud to China for lots -O-money and then sells the common tax payer ditch weed, the smart home grower gets bud and primo for free minus electricity to power the purple black lights!!!!

[Dr. Gonzo GED]

This argument is getting stupid.

I'm going to go get stoned...

[Blacksmith]

So commercial bottom of the stalk leaves would be better than home grown dripping buds?
No you can't make scotch better than a company so you have to pay taxes for being inferior to the man and his machine, but thats where its different with weed, While the man sends the bud to China for lots -O-money and then sells the common tax payer ditch weed, the smart home grower gets bud and primo for free minus electricity to power the purple black lights!!!!

I don’t know much about growing shit.
But I do know that a Cuban cigar taste one hell of a lot better than one made here. I imagine that growing tobacco and dope must be somewhat similar in the fact that they are both plants. so I have to call bullshit on that one.

[Solidus-snake]

I like my scotch aged at least 15 years. I like my beer extra stout and I like my cigars made from the best long fillers on the planet. So If it makes you feel better choking down your homemade swill and smoking your dog shit cigarettes to call me lazy. by all means go right ahead.
:)

:rofl:

[FunkyPertwee]

Has anyone considered the idea the American government was never intended to be used for social control, and that no elected official has the authority to bar me from the pursuit of happiness, no matter how disliked that pursuit may be?

How can someone else decide what it is illegal for me to do, when that act removes none of the other party's freedom?

If you smoke pot, your not inhibiting my life as an American at all. If you rob someone in order to finance any substance, or any activity, you are then scum. You have broken the God given right to personal property by removing someones possessions without that individuals permission.

Don't remove any level of freedom from me, or anyone else who chooses to mind their own business.

Until I have committed a crime, a REAL crime which involves the illegal removal of someones liberties, life, or property, then stay out of my life. Period.

What you ingest is your own business.

And this line of thought is exactly why my gun ownership can't be taken away. Even if you could prove to me that all child deaths, world wide, would be reduced by 25% after outlawing guns, I would still feel compelled to protect the interest of personal liberty, over what is best for society.

[mriddick]

No, how could they contradict each other? If pot was legal, the money would not have to be spent to elimitate it by law enforcement. The courts would not be tied up with prosecuting people the possess it. Jails and prisons would not be as crowded with folks that have been convicted of pot offenses. Sounds like a lot of money would be saved that was spent on enforcing the prohibition of pot.

Taxes collected on the consumption selling of pot would be a plus. Of course there would be enforcement of the tax laws, but it would cost less than the prohabition currently does.

Don't see how that's a contradiction.It just doesn't work like that in the real world, name a state or country that legalized drugs to any degree and saw a reduction in law enforcement or gov't size. As I've stated I think you'd find that while "big" cartel driven crime might go down in Mexico, it would most likely go up around your neighborhood.

Again I might not be against legalization if done right but to sell me the idea that law enforcement or gov't size will go down because they won't be fighting drugs is silly. Giving the gov't more money and thinking they will shrink and/or give you more freedom is laughable, you can't buy them off like that. I still say the only way to make it work is make cheap enough so that cartels, the gov't and individuals can't profit off it.

[HDR]

This is a really exciting discussion. LOL

[Dr. Gonzo GED]

This is a really exciting discussion. LOL
You're telling me!

You wanna puff bro? I got that BOOYAH sheeit!

[HDR]

You're telling me!

You wanna puff bro? I got that BOOYAH sheeit!

I love excitement. I figure enough money has been spent, too many people killed and any one who wants the shit can buy it including kids. So it is as much of a waste as Prohibition.

Nah.

[Prometheus168]

I am all in favor of legalizing and taxing it, the only scary thought is can you imagine all the damage that 0bama could do if he had another 25 Billion or so....

Rusty

[yankeedog]

I don’t know much about growing shit.
But I do know that a Cuban cigar taste one hell of a lot better than one made here. I imagine that growing tobacco and dope must be somewhat similar in the fact that they are both plants. so I have to call bullshit on that one.
Your right you don't know about growing pot, like I said you can't grow tobacco leaves in your back yard for enough to smoke all year being that most smoke a pack a day verses 8 or 10 plants of pot will last all year because you smoke less of it.
Now what I don't know is if its even legal to grow tobacco in your yard do to selling and buying lots at harvest time???

[Blacksmith]

Has anyone considered the idea the American government was never intended to be used for social control, and that no elected official has the authority to bar me from the pursuit of happiness, no matter how disliked that pursuit may be?

How can someone else decide what it is illegal for me to do, when that act removes none of the other party's freedom?

If you smoke pot, your not inhibiting my life as an American at all. If you rob someone in order to finance any substance, or any activity, you are then scum. You have broken the God given right to personal property by removing someones possessions without that individuals permission.

Don't remove any level of freedom from me, or anyone else who chooses to mind their own business.

Until I have committed a crime, a REAL crime which involves the illegal removal of someones liberties, life, or property, then stay out of my life. Period.

What you ingest is your own business.

And this line of thought is exactly why my gun ownership can't be taken away. Even if you could prove to me that all child deaths, world wide, would be reduced by 25% after outlawing guns, I would still feel compelled to protect the interest of personal liberty, over what is best for society.

Well done.
I agree 100%

[Dr. Gonzo GED]

Your right you don't know about growing pot, like I said you can't grow tobacco leaves in your back yard for enough to smoke all year being that most smoke a pack a day verses 8 or 10 plants of pot will last all year because you smoke less of it.
Now what I don't know is if its even legal to grow tobacco in your yard do to selling and buying lots at harvest time???
And you don't know shite about it either man.

Blacklights?

What the hell are YOU smokin pal?

[yankeedog]

And you don't know shite about it either man.

Blacklights?

What the hell are YOU smokin pal?
Really?...... No really???

[HDR]

Stoners walk funny, sort of as if they have pillows tied to their feet.

[Dr. Gonzo GED]

Really?...... No really???

Lets put it this way. I live in one of the biggest white market agricultural economies in the world. However, a black market agricultural product (weed) is still our states highest grossing cash crop year after year. With liscensing available to grow medical marijuana for the dispensaries, "botany" is an even bigger business than ever.

What I'm getting at is, I'm not going to name names, but I doubt there is anybody in this entire state that does not know somebody who is involved in production professionally.

And not one "proffesional" I've ever met, uses "blacklights".

(They use high pressure sodium lamps BTW. That what you should be hanging in your closet...


...stoner...)

[El Jefe]

Lets put it this way. I live in one of the biggest white market agricultural economies in the world. However, a black market agricultural product (weed) is still our states highest grossing cash crop year after year. With liscensing available to grow medical marijuana for the dispensaries, "botany" is an even bigger business than ever.

What I'm getting at is, I'm not going to name names, but I doubt there is anybody in this entire state that does not know somebody who is involved in production professionally.

And not one "proffesional" I've ever met, uses "blacklights".

(They use high pressure sodium lamps BTW. That what you should be hanging in your closet...


...stoner...)

Don't those generate an ass load of heat? Besides being expensive? I thought you could grow pot plants with regular florescent bulbs?

[Dr. Gonzo GED]

Don't those generate an ass load of heat? Besides being expensive? I thought you could grow pot plants with regular florescent bulbs?
The plant will sprout and develope, sure. But it won't be healthy or productive.

You can grow "weeds" with some dirt and a reflector.

To grow "medicine" you need some fairly sophisticated hydroponics. There are a lot of conditions that factor into the amount of THC crystals a plant produces. Water, stress, temperature, humidity, light and dark cycles, pruning, all play as much a part as the genetices of the plant, and those requirements vary during different stages of developement. . It's actually a fair invesment in gear and liscensing to do it properly.

This idea that everybody is sudenly going to have a bumper crop of albino that looks more like Superman's fortress of solitude than a plant is just plain wrong.

They're more than likely to get some bammer ditch weed that is better for parchment and rope than "tripping the life fantastic".

[El Jefe]

"medicine" :)

See, just like with beer or hooch, it's better to just have the pros do it. It would be wild to just stroll into a tobacco store and buy a pack of Red Bud.

[Moebrown20]

The plant will sprout and develope, sure. But it won't be healthy or productive.

You can grow "weeds" with some dirt and a reflector.

So what color lamps do you use? More red or blue color. Do you mix(lamps) between groth cycles?

[Dr. Gonzo GED]

So what color lamps do you use? More red or blue color. Do you mix(lamps) between groth cycles?

"I" don't grow anything. Has to do with the ol' responsible gun owner, and maintaing my rights thing.

I'd have to ask around about light cycles, because honestly, I only have a perifreral knpwledge of how it's done. I do know there's a lot more involved than just turning on the lamp and sorting the males from the females.

But if the state legalizes it in November, who knows, you might wind up talking to a legit farmer this time next year!

[El Jefe]

"I" don't grow anything. Has to do with the ol' responsible gun owner, and maintaing my rights thing.

I'd have to ask around about light cycles, because honestly, I only have a perifreral knpwledge of how it's done. I do know there's a lot more involved than just turning on the lamp and sorting the males from the females.

But if the state legalizes it in November, who knows, you might wind up talking to a legit farmer this time next year!

Hows that going to work vis-a-vis Federal law?

[Dr. Gonzo GED]

Hows that going to work vis-a-vis Federal law?
Well, that is complicated. And a good question.

Ashcroft would have gone after the state for it, but I doubt Holder will. It's already a liteeral a grey market here, and nobody is trying to stop it. In fact, even the governor is encouraging it, simply because of the rediculous tax windfall the bill would generate.

In the beginning, you'd probably have to do it with the same legal protections in place that the "grey marketeers" use today.

I will not dicuss those here though.

[El Jefe]

Well, that is complicated. And a good question.

Ashcroft would have gone after the state for it, but I doubt Holder will. It's already a liteeral a grey market here, and nobody is trying to stop it. In fact, even the governor is encouraging it, simply because of the rediculous tax windfall the bill would generate.

In the beginning, you'd probably have to do it with the same legal protections in place that the "grey marketeers" use today.

I will not dicuss those here though.

A couple of years ago here in Missouri, the city of Columbia passed a law decriminalizing marijuana possession. IIRC you could be in possession of up to one ounce. It seemed reasonable to me, but I believe the state made them take it off the books. As I've said many times, it's dumb that it's illegal.

[HDR]

The "War on Drugs" is probably the most expensive unending war this nation has ever seen.

[El Jefe]

The "War on Drugs" is probably the most expensive unending war this nation has ever seen.

It has proven to be an expensive failure, you'd think would have learned from prohibition.

[Dr. Gonzo GED]

The "War on Drugs" is probably the most expensive unending war this nation has ever seen.

It costs the DEA $180,000 on average to raid a grow operation.

[mriddick]

Yet as mentioned where ever it is legalize the scope of the drug problem does not go down, the gov't does not spend the extra money any better, taxes do not go down, the police presence does not decrease nor does crime go down... You'd think if outlawing it was so bad where ever they legalize it things would improve.

[Dr. Gonzo GED]

Yet as mentioned where ever it is legalize the scope of the drug problem does not go down, the gov't does not spend the extra money any better, taxes do not go down, the police presence does not decrease nor does crime go down... You'd think if outlawing it was so bad where ever they legalize it things would improve.
Well, there's a big difference between pot smokers and hard drug users. There are a lot of fully functioning adults who work, pay taxes, send kids to college, and live socially productive lives. Now, take that productive member of society, ruin their life, confiscate their property, and make them a burden on the state by incarcerating them, and you have just reduced the ratio of citizens to convicts by one.

All of those people. The ones who wshuld not be behind bars. The ones who used to contribute, but now are a burden. All of them, not being criminals, and not taking up valuable space and resources in prison would be an improvement.

The DEA not sepnding $180,000 per bust to roust a bunch of gardeners. That would be an improvement.

Don't you think?

[mriddick]

Well, there's a big difference between pot smokers and hard drug users. There are a lot of fully functioning adults who work, pay taxes, send kids to college, and live socially productive lives. Now, take that productive member of society, ruin their life, confiscate their property, and make them a burden on the state by incarcerating them, and you have just reduced the ratio of citizens to convicts by one.

All of those people. The ones who wshuld not be behind bars. The ones who used to contribute, but now are a burden. All of them, not being criminals, and not taking up valuable space and resources in prison would be an improvement.

The DEA not sepnding $180,000 per bust to roust a bunch of gardeners. That would be an improvement.

Don't you think?

Truthfully I'm not sure...and I'm not even a hard liner against drugs. You're from California, as they have legalized pot has the police presence gone down? How about your taxes? Have other drug issues decrease since I'm sure everyone is going to legal pot VS illegal drugs. Does your state spend money more wisely now? Has crime overall gone down?

I think it should just be made legal and free, take the money out of it all together for both cartels the mexican and gov't types :)

[El Jefe]

Truthfully I'm not sure...and I'm not even a hard liner against drugs. You're from California, as they have legalized pot has the police presence gone down? How about your taxes? Have other drug issues decrease since I'm sure everyone is going to legal pot VS illegal drugs. Does your state spend money more wisely now? Has crime overall gone down?

I think it should just be made legal and free, take the money out of it all together for both cartels the mexican and gov't types :)

Free? How exactly would that work?

[yankeedog]

I don't care one bit about statistics, I can tell you my life will get much higher than now!!!!!
Gambleing makes you poor
smoking gives you cancer
and drinking alchol gives you a headache.
Pot gets you high and nothing is bad about that!

[mriddick]

Free? How exactly would that work?

You don't tax it... That will take the money out of it for the gov't, to them it will be free (you might still have to pay for the actual drugs you want).

[El Jefe]

You don't tax it... That will take the money out of it for the gov't, to them it will be free (you might still have to pay for the actual drugs you want).

Everything is taxed in this country, pot will be no different. You're kinda being like Krupski on this issue aren't you?

[mriddick]

In the thread with Kerry you say you're against paying use taxes, so which is for you? It's very hard to discuss a topic with a moving target.

As I've said show where legalization shrinks the police or gov't, where does it decrease overall drug use or crime, where does it reduce taxes for everyone else? I'm just asking the obvious question when people start saying things that have not come to be. Think about the reasons people give for legalization and how many really make no sense. As for taxes think the whole process through and you'll see enriching the gov't is not the goal when it comes to drugs, if it's a freedom issue why in the world would you support taxing it. Has "taxing things to death" and freedom ever gone hand in hand? If it's about freedom you pretty much got to let people make or grow what they want without taxes because taxes (past the point of fairness) are all about control.

As for krupski, we can discuss this reasonably and like adult or you can start leveling insults hoping to side track this into personal attacks.

[El Jefe]

In the thread with Kerry you say you're against paying use taxes, so which is for you? It's very hard to discuss a topic with a moving target.

As I've said show where legalization shrinks the police or gov't, where does it decrease overall drug use or crime, where does it reduce taxes for everyone else? I'm just asking the obvious question when people start saying things that have not come to be. Think about the reasons people give for legalization and how many really make no sense. As for taxes think the whole process through and you'll see enriching the gov't is not the goal when it comes to drugs, if it's a freedom issue why in the world would you support taxing it. Has "taxing things to death" and freedom ever gone hand in hand? If it's about freedom you pretty much got to let people make or grow what they want without taxes because taxes (past the point of fairness) are all about control.

As for krupski, we can discuss this reasonably and like adult or you can start leveling insults hoping to side track this into personal attacks.

Taxing it like they do tobacco and alcohol seems reasonable, but some taxes, like the ones Kerry is fleeing, are just too punative and cost people jobs. Don't be so thin skinned, if you're going to be obstinate about something don't whine if someone casually ribbs you over it.

[mriddick]

Trust me I'd love to discuss the topic. Considering the old board and this one I'm probably the longest posting member who's never been in a flame war of any consequence, and believe that is by design :) . I just wanted to know if it was personal attacks you wanted I wasn't going to partake of it, if it's a discussion then we're good.

I just don't see what good it will do to hand the gov't massive amounts of money through unreasonable taxes. The whole angle of more taxes equal less govt is silly, when does that ever happen? All someone has to do is post where legalization has delivered all the posted great social benefits legalization is supposed to do and it might help. So in the end if all comes down to freedom then why tax it at all, if you can grow it in your house safely then whats the reason to tax it and how will they do that?

[Dr. Gonzo GED]

Truthfully I'm not sure...and I'm not even a hard liner against drugs. You're from California, as they have legalized pot has the police presence gone down? How about your taxes? Have other drug issues decrease since I'm sure everyone is going to legal pot VS illegal drugs. Does your state spend money more wisely now? Has crime overall gone down?

I think it should just be made legal and free, take the money out of it all together for both cartels the mexican and gov't types :)
Well, I'll adress these as much as I can:

Police presence? No, not gone down one bit. They are the favored revenue collection system of every city in the state, so they are exactly where they have always been. Right on your ass, looking to bust you for anything they can possibly make stick.

Taxes have actually gone up. The state is 24 billion in debt, so sales tax has gone up, as well as the aformentioned police presense. This however is the driving force that has been behind the push for legalization. In this economy, to allow the biggest cash crop in the state to go untaxed is just pure stupidity.

Other drug issues are exactly the way they were before. If anthing, less young people use drugs than they did when I was their age living in the same place. Pot is a non issue. Period. Hard drugs, chrystal meth in particular, are the problem they have always been. No better, no worse. Casual cocaine use is up with the college set, but people do not ruin their lives with it the way they used to. The only coke adicts I've ever seen were straight up crack heads.

The main reason use of other drugs doesn't go dwon though, is because they all have a different high. Some completely opposed to each other. Pot and Meth for instance are nothing like each other, and a habitual user of either drug, will not turn to the other one to get a fix. So no, you won't see meth heads and heroine adicts giving up the needle for a joint. Just isn't going to happen.

The state spending money wisely? That's a joke. but certainly less is wasted on marijuana interdiction. In fact, a lot of money is coming in from the licensing fees. And with a proposed $50 per ounce tax on legal sales, the revenue generated will be bigger then the GDP of most countries.

Overall crime? Sure, there's a lot less "illegal" marijuana use.

[El Jefe]

Trust me I'd love to discuss the topic. Considering the old board and this one I'm probably the longest posting member who's never been in a flame war of any consequence, and believe that is by design :) . I just wanted to know if it was personal attacks you wanted I wasn't going to partake of it, if it's a discussion then we're good.

I just don't see what good it will do to hand the gov't massive amounts of money through unreasonable taxes. The whole angle of more taxes equal less govt is silly, when does that ever happen? All someone has to do is post where legalization has delivered all the posted great social benefits legalization is supposed to do and it might help. So in the end if all comes down to freedom then why tax it at all, if you can grow it in your house safely then whats the reason to tax it and how will they do that?

Taxation is inevitable, regardless of who's in charge. I'd rather they tax marijuana vs baby formula.

[mriddick]

Taxation is inevitable, regardless of who's in charge. I'd rather they tax marijuana vs baby formula.

And thats my point...Do you really expect tax on baby formula to go down if pot is legalized? Truthfully in the end don't you think the tax on baby formula will remain the same even if there's a massive new tax on pot?

[El Jefe]

And thats my point...Do you really expect tax on baby formula to go down if pot is legalized? Truthfully in the end don't you think the tax on baby formula will remain the same even if there's a massive new tax on pot?

Depends on who's running the show, it depends on what the taxers think they can get away with. As it is right now the government is spending more than it brings in and even if there's some belt tightening they'll still need more revenue.

[mriddick]

So is that a no? You agree most likely baby formula taxes are here to stay? :)

[El Jefe]

So is that a no? You agree most likely baby formula taxes are here to stay? :)

Maybe, maybe not. But even if it did remain I can see no reason not to tax pot.

[yankeedog]

Taxation is inevitable, regardless of who's in charge. I'd rather they tax marijuana vs baby formula.
1: I would them rather tax baby formula, because I don't have a baby that uses it.
2: Again they can't tax what Im not buying from them because I will grow my own.
If you don't grow your own you don't need to smoke it.

[El Jefe]

1: I would them rather tax baby formula, because I don't have a baby that uses it.
2: Again they can't tax what Im not buying from them because I will grow my own.
If you don't grow your own you don't need to smoke it.

So, you're completely self reliant, live off the grid ect?

[Dr. Gonzo GED]

1: I would them rather tax baby formula, because I don't have a baby that uses it.
2: Again they can't tax what Im not buying from them because I will grow my own.
If you don't grow your own you don't need to smoke it.

Dude, you're obviously smoking SOMETHING.

[mriddick]

I'd agree with growing it yourself there should be no tax on it.

[El Jefe]

I'd agree with growing it yourself there should be no tax on it.

Then it would be like growing tomatoes in your garden, but like tomatoes, if you buy them at the store, you get taxed.