Advantages/Disadvantages of the Gas-Piston Operated Carbine

[RCS]

Help me out, here. I'm hoping to make one of these my next purchase, so are they actually more reliable and cleaner-shooting than the original AR?

I was taking a look at the Robinson Armament XCR, and I really liked it. My father-in-law has one and it felt great in my hands, but I haven't gotten the chance to fire it. After looking up some reviews, I heard a guy said he fired 2,000 rounds of brass-cased through it and didn't need to clean it.

Now, since I'm unfamiliar with this platform in every way, I'm a bit skeptical of this.

[Moebrown20]

I haven't hear anything bad about them.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robinson_Armament_XCR
It has an AK type gas piston, so that a plus with it.

[ready]

The only disadvantages I can think of are cost and parts availability. I don't know what might break in an XCR but it's always one of my considerations before purchasing a new gun.

[Gunreference1]

RCS, you might be interested in the link below.

http://www.fulton-armory.com/WhyNotaGasPistonAR.htm

Steve

[NewbieAKguy]

RCS, you might be interested in the link below.

http://www.fulton-armory.com/WhyNotaGasPistonAR.htm

Steve
He's not a tad biased cuz he doesn't sell piston guns is he?;)

[RottenII]

I have a LWRC piston rifle. I love the fact that the bolt and carrier stay CLEAN! I have several thousand rounds thru mine with zero issues. Love it. I have not touched my Bushmaster since.

[RCS]

Thanks, guys. I'm thinking the info Fulton is handing out is for the conversion kits and not the actual piston-operated rifles. I could be wrong, of course.

But I suppose I'll just have to buy one and find out. Who makes these?

[NewbieAKguy]

Thanks, guys. I'm thinking the info Fulton is handing out is for the conversion kits and not the actual piston-operated rifles. I could be wrong, of course.

But I suppose I'll just have to buy one and find out. Who makes these?

Who makes piston kits? Quite a few nowadays:

Adams Arms
Osprey
Addax (?)
CMMG
Spike's Tactical

I know there are more, just can't remember.

[Moebrown20]

Looks like I have to make a call to AA soon.
380 bucks seems close to these pistons price range.

[RCS]

Who makes piston kits? Quite a few nowadays:

Adams Arms
Osprey
Addax (?)
CMMG
Spike's Tactical

I know there are more, just can't remember.

Oh, I meant the actual rifles. My bad. I've heard a few quirky things about the kits, and not just from Fulton. I know POF, RobArms, and Stag make them. But other than them, who else?

[NewbieAKguy]

Like you said there's P.O.F., Robarms, and Stag. Plus...

Smith & Wesson (uses Adams Arms pistons)
Ruger, SR-556
CMMG
Spike's Tactical
LWRCI
Para Ordnance
Rock River
SIG's new 516

If you're after a piston rifle, not necessary in AR format there's SIG556 or Kel-tec's SU-16 series of rifles.

[Moebrown20]

I ordered a Adams Arms pistons(carbine) form midway for under 300 bucks.
It will be here on monday, I'll let you know how the install goes after then

[swampdragon]

I like the folding stock ability on the ZM/Para TTR.
But "technically" it's not a piston gun.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v648/Swampdragon/eed974ad.jpg

[RCS]

"Technically"?

[swampdragon]

"Technically"?

It uses an extra long carrier key and a few other mods in the recoil system.
It's not a piston drive.
It's not DI either.



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TtNuOO_IDuo

[NewbieAKguy]

I like the folding stock ability on the ZM/Para TTR.
But "technically" it's not a piston gun.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v648/Swampdragon/eed974ad.jpg

Correct. Think RRA's new piston might be similar too, hence its folding stock.

[RCS]

Good video, very informative.

But I set my sights on one of those integrally suppressed ARs in 9mm from Red Jacket.

(First pic)
http://www.redstick-firearms.com/suppressors/suppressors.html

I may get another upper for it that is gas piston operated, though.

[Bluedog]

The primary advantage of the DI system is no reciprocating mass above the barrel, which increases accuracy and full-auto control ability, and the pure straight line action created by using the bolt carrier itself as a gas piston.

The biggest disadvantages of the piston ARs in particular is that they do have reciprocating mass, and they function by pushing on a raised cam on top of the bolt carrier, which does not result in a purely straight line recoil, and leads to carrier tilt. This wears parts, increases recoil, and shortens the life of the weapon. Beyond that, there are about a dozen various piston designs out now, and none are combat proven or have been subjected to 50 years of design refinement like the Stoner system. Also, none have been objectively proven to be any more reliable than the Stoner system.

For those of you have have not heard, SOCOM has dropped the SCAR.

[RCS]

For those of you have have not heard, SOCOM has dropped the SCAR.

Link? Last I heard, the dropped the Mk-16 (for the most part) but decided to keep the Mk-17 on because it carried the .308 cartridge well. That was a few weeks ago.

Edit: As of July 11th (which is the latest info I can find) they have dropped the Mk-16, but not the bigger brother. So, you're half-right. But don't get me wrong, I'm not knocking the originals here. I'm looking for a low-maintenance, gunk-free rifle that I can feed Wolf through and not have to worry about what's going on in the inside.

[Gunreference1]

This is what I have heard about the fate of the SCAR.

http://kitup.military.com/2010/06/socom-cancels-mk-16-scar.html

Steve

[RCS]

This is what I have heard about the fate of the SCAR.

http://kitup.military.com/2010/06/socom-cancels-mk-16-scar.html

Steve

My bad, I should have posted a quote. So, according to this person on Defense Review, they plan to go ahead with the Mk-17 with an adaptor to switch over to 5.56? Well, good luck with it, soldiers.:fighter2:

[NewbieAKguy]

Wow! Even cheaper than Stag or CMMG's piston AR!!! http://www.gandrtactical.com/cgi-bin/commerce.cgi?preadd=action&key=811022

I'm even tempted for that price!

Update: S&W's MSRP for this is $1531.00!!

[RCS]

Good God, for that price something has to be off. But after that 9mm package, we'll see. :piggy-bank:

[Paladin]

Looks like I have to make a call to AA soon.
380 bucks seems close to these pistons price range.

Been thinking about putting a Mega MTS together using the AA piston designed for the Mega. Rainier has a good stock of the stuff.

http://www.megamachineshop.com/armscatalog.php

Anybody have experience or comments?

[Moebrown20]

Well, my AA piston arrived yesterday.
After a quick look at the install video



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t5gjpdmkwls&feature=player_embedded,

I will attempt to do it tonight after I pick up another punch set.
I won't be able to test it until August tho.

[RCS]

Good luck, Moe. Just make sure to give us a range report.:cool1:

[Moebrown20]

The install was good. It took me 10 minutes longer than the video. I lost a punch in the process. I also installed a roller cam pin from www.pof-usa.com and a Walther PS 22. This weekend is done for and it just started. I need some range time.

[Paladin]

The install was good. It took me 10 minutes longer than the video. I lost a punch in the process. I also installed a roller cam pin from www.pof-usa.com and a Walther PS 22. This weekend is done for and it just started. I need some range time.

Moe, I have no knowledge/experience with roller cam pin. Will ya tell me what you know?

[Moebrown20]

Moe, I have no knowledge/experience with roller cam pin. Will ya tell me what you know?

It would be easier to show.
Have you brought a new upper & gave it an inspection plus a light coat of oil.
Then took it to the range for a 100+ rounds of good shooting.
When you got home and started cleaning, you notice grooves & wear (called the dreaded cam pin "groove" ).

Well a roller pin was stated to fix the problem. Now most of the AR's I've shot were used and had some wear in them already. The drag associated with the standard rectangular pin only bother a few. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6JmIQXkoog8

[Paladin]

It would be easier to show...http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6JmIQXkoog8

Thanks for the link. I am starting a build with Mega's MTS Mono upper and the AA piston system designed just for the MTS. I am guessing that the POF cam pin does not interfere with the unique AA key/rod, ja?

[Moebrown20]

Thanks for the link. I am starting a build with Mega's MTS Mono upper and the AA piston system designed just for the MTS. I am guessing that the POF cam pin does not interfere with the unique AA key/rod, ja?


No, only in the di system but 10 seconds with a dremel would fix that problem.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v503/AR15forme/POF/IMG_81901.jpg


The modified bolt carrier has plenty of room.

http://adamsarms.net/products/asy-bc-1pg.jpg

[Paladin]

No, only in the di system but 10 seconds with a dremel would fix that problem...The modified bolt carrier has plenty of room.

Thanks buddy. The pics make it very clear...

[RCS]

Trigger time is the reward of hard work. Also, pics of the rifle would be nice, if you're able.

[Moebrown20]

Trigger time is the reward of hard work. Also, pics of the rifle would be nice, if you're able.

I'll have a few up tomorrow.

[swampdragon]

No, only in the di system but 10 seconds with a dremel would fix that problem.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v503/AR15forme/POF/IMG_81901.jpg


The modified bolt carrier has plenty of room.

http://adamsarms.net/products/asy-bc-1pg.jpg

That bolt carrier looks similar to Ruger's.
I'm gonna have to go back and check out some of these links.

Moe....I agree with everybody else.
Some pics and range report would be awesome.

[Moebrown20]

http://i156.photobucket.com/albums/t39/moebrown20/P1190003.jpg



http://i156.photobucket.com/albums/t39/moebrown20/P1190001.jpg



http://i156.photobucket.com/albums/t39/moebrown20/P1190005.jpg



http://i156.photobucket.com/albums/t39/moebrown20/P1190002.jpg



http://i156.photobucket.com/albums/t39/moebrown20/P1190007.jpg



http://i156.photobucket.com/albums/t39/moebrown20/P1190004.jpg

[swampdragon]

Where does the excess gas bleed out?
I seem to have missed that part.
Does it come out around the gas block or under the hand-guards or what?

[RCS]

You have a great-looking rifle, Moe. The only question I have, aside from SD's, is the performance and I'm set. You pretty much beta-tested this whole ordeal for me. I really appreciate it!

[Paladin]

Where does the excess gas bleed out?
I seem to have missed that part.
Does it come out around the gas block or under the hand-guards or what?

Swampy, at about 36 seconds on the animation, it answers your question.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M7GTZ0DixqA

[Moebrown20]

Does it come out around the gas block or under the hand-guards or what?

Yeah, the back of the gas block and the upper front handguard.
It's semi adjustable: Normal, suppressed and off.

[Bluedog]

Moe, you probably knew this already, but your cantilever scope mount is on backwards. You will not be able to use a magnifier or many BUIS units until you spin it around.

[Moebrown20]

Yeah.
I've used Iron sights for too long.
I'm only 3 years into optics other than Scopes.

[Moebrown20]

Range report.

Nice cool morning, time 9am.
Tobyhanna range:

http://i156.photobucket.com/albums/t39/moebrown20/P1260013.jpg


First target, 50 yards.
After using the laser bore sighter to set the optic, I was ready.
The first shot didn't cycle, hit bottom right corner. Minor adjustment

Next three shots were great, but I could now hear a mild springy sound. Shots still off to the lower right.
Had to do a mag adjustment, then took 3 shots. Closer to center, but still a bit low.

http://i156.photobucket.com/albums/t39/moebrown20/P1260016.jpg



I was using wolf 55grain ammo.

Second target, 100 yards.
Time to set up another target and take more group shots:
http://i156.photobucket.com/albums/t39/moebrown20/P1260021.jpg

I need to focus more.

Next was mag dump, that was great. big heat reduction & the action was much faster.

Next the tear down:

http://i156.photobucket.com/albums/t39/moebrown20/P1260019.jpg

http://i156.photobucket.com/albums/t39/moebrown20/P1260017.jpg

http://i156.photobucket.com/albums/t39/moebrown20/P1260018.jpg


It still had the light coat of oil I applied. Hands were clean after 60 rounds of dirty wolf ammo.
No groves or scratches. Could use a magnifer, maybe a 3-5X.


http://i156.photobucket.com/albums/t39/moebrown20/P1260022.jpg

http://i156.photobucket.com/albums/t39/moebrown20/P1260014.jpg

[Moebrown20]

On my next trip, I will run 1-1.5k rounds through it and get some video. Didn't have much time today to do much.

The following, I will run another thousand and do another tear down to see if there's any changes. :hyper:

[abpt1]

Great range report! :thumbsup:

I am thinking about installing that kit on my green bitch.

[Moebrown20]

Great range report! :thumbsup:

I am thinking about installing that kit on my green bitch.

The hardest part is removing the front sight pins!!!!
Everything else takes about 5-10mins tops.

When you install that AA piston, make sure you get rid of that pig and add one of these:
http://rrages.com/m4shroud/index.htm

The AA site has it for 380 (http://www.adamsarms.net/category.asp) or so and Midwayusa has it for 293. (http://www.midwayusa.com/Search/#adams arms____-_1-2-4_8-16-32)
Measure first (http://adamsarms.net/images/gaslength1.pdf): pistol – 4”, carbine – 7”, midlength – 9”, and rifle – 12”.

[RCS]

Awesome, Moe. Looked pretty clean. Can't wait until the next torture test.

[deth502]

great write up moe.

is the gas adjusted by turning the front piece like an fal??

[Moebrown20]

great write up moe.

is the gas adjusted by turning the front piece like an fal??

Some what. It has 4 points:
1 removal
2 normal
3 supressed
4 no cycle

[Moebrown20]

I wonder if it will work with a .22lr conversion???
Any input?

It would be easier(and cheaper) to dump 2-3k rounds of 22lr rather than 223

[RCS]

I would suggest calling up AA and asking them. I can't find anything on Google.

[NewbieAKguy]

I would suggest calling up AA and asking them. I can't find anything on Google.

+1.

From Adams Arms' website: Q. What calibers will the Adam’s Arms systems work with?
A. Currently our system will function with the 5.45x39, the 5.56/.223, the 6.5 Grendel, and the 6.8 SPC without any special modifications needed. We are in the testing stages right now with the .308/7.62 NATO and will update our website when we have a system that will work to our standards.

I would still email them about .22lr, no telling how long ago this was posted. I emailed them about 7.62x39 a few months back....can't remember what they told me. Either being looked into or in development :gruebel:

[deth502]

im sure it would have to be modified, as the 22lr conversions are set up with the gas key on the carrier. that would be easy enough to mill off, to let the conversion unit fit in. and im sure they would be blowback operated, so i would guess your good to go after that.

[Moebrown20]

im sure it would have to be modified, as the 22lr conversions are set up with the gas key on the carrier. that would be easy enough to mill off, to let the conversion unit fit in. and im sure they would be blowback operated, so i would guess your good to go after that.

I see it now, no need to mill the Carrier Key, they carry a modified one..... But I don't see myself coughing up 76 + shipping (http://www.adamsarms.net/details.asp?sku=ASY Carrier Key) to get one, but the 5 bucks for the bolt spring will do.

[deth502]

holy shit!! for $0.10 worth of steel and 2 allen screws!!

yeah, id still mill down the one on the conversion :thumbsup:

[Schuetzenman]

I wonder if it will work with a .22lr conversion???
Any input?

It would be easier(and cheaper) to dump 2-3k rounds of 22lr rather than 223

I'd say no it won't work with .22 LR in as much as .22 LR is very wimpy in power and the conversion bolts are blow back operated, they don't use the gas system on the weapon. They, .22 LR blow back converions are dirty beasts in their own right. But they are cheap to shoot and fun.

[deth502]

I'd say no it won't work with .22 LR in as much as .22 LR is very wimpy in power and the conversion bolts are blow back operated, they don't use the gas system on the weapon. They, .22 LR blow back converions are dirty beasts in their own right. But they are cheap to shoot and fun.

im not following your logic.

so if the conversion systems do not use the gas system at all since they are blowback operated, then why would it matter if the gas system (a part that the conversion kit is NOT using) was changed?

[Schuetzenman]

im not following your logic.

so if the conversion systems do not use the gas system at all since they are blowback operated, then why would it matter if the gas system (a part that the conversion kit is NOT using) was changed?

I'm just saying that there is insufficient gas from .22 lr to cycle the piston system. As long has his tappet or oprod / piston doesn't stick back into the upper further than a conventional gas tube a drop in .22 LR conversion bolt should work as they do by blow back with their self contained spring.

[Moebrown20]

I'm just saying that there is insufficient gas from .22 lr to cycle the piston system. As long has his tappet or oprod / piston doesn't stick back into the upper further than a conventional gas tube a drop in .22 LR conversion bolt should work as they do by blow back with their self contained spring.

It's something I would have to look into in the near future.
I could always adjust the gas settings to suppressed.
I've always heard that the 22lr is a very dirty round itself.

[deth502]

I'm just saying that there is insufficient gas from .22 lr to cycle the piston system. As long has his tappet or oprod / piston doesn't stick back into the upper further than a conventional gas tube a drop in .22 LR conversion bolt should work as they do by blow back with their self contained spring.

thats exactly hat i thought. it looks like it would (hit the piston), which is why i said i think youd have to mod the carrier key on it to look like the conversion one, but it should work after that, imo. in your op the first thing you said was no, and then went on to talk about the gas system. i think either you typoed or i didnt comprehend you correctly, because it looks like we were thinking the same thing.

[aliceinchains]

Conversion kits in my opinion are BS. Save some yeah. But in the long run train what you need to engage with and what you need to defeat it.

[Moebrown20]

Conversion kits in my opinion are BS. Save some yeah. But in the long run train what you need to engage with and what you need to defeat it.

I know what you mean, but 4k rounds of 223/556 would cost me a grand compared to a case(5K) of LR for 250 tops.

[kimberkid]

Originally posted on the Black Rifle Porn Thread:

I like the Osprey system, what attracted to me was that it doesn't vent under the hand guards. When the carrier comes back forward it collapses the trap and sends the gasses back down the barrel (however there is some seepage around the gas trap). It installs under 5 minutes and no permanent modifications to your weapon, no springs to wear out and it runs clean and cool as advertised. The system added about 3 ounces of weight and there was no effect on accuracy that I could tell. In about 800 rounds there is no indication of carrier tilt as with some other systems and I'm not running any special buffer. If I were to get another piston system I wouldn't hesitate to get another Osprey.

There are two things kind of bug me about it; the piston will slide back and forth when tilted up and down, but you can turn the delta ring to put a little pressure on it. Also, since there are no gas rings, there is no drag on the bolt carrier ... when you split the upper and lower, if the barrel it tilted up and the ejection port door is open, the carrier will slide back; it won't fall out because of the charge handle.

I've been shooting Silver Bear ammo and I've only cleaned it twice since I installed the kit and it really didn't need it. Once at 200 rounds and then at 700 rounds (500 rounds between). When I split the halves, there was virtually no residue in the receiver at all, I ran a few patches down the barrel. Then I wiped the bolt down, pulled off the hand guards and wiped it down around the gas trap and neither of those procedures was worth the effort, but I was curious. Since then I've run a bore-snake down the barrel after shooting but thats all.

The only thing I'll add is that as nice as the above gun is to clean, I doubt I'll get another kit ... I'll spend the $275 on more ammo ... or most likely, put it toward another toy :) Only because cleaning an AR isn't that big of a deal to me ... as a civilian shooter thats the only actual advantage.

[Moebrown20]

It's pretty much the same set up as the Adams system. You just don't remove the front sight.

http://gaspiston.com/index/wp-content/gallery/osprey/ops416onwhitelarge.jpg


Looks cool.

[Moebrown20]

Nice day today.
Went to the range today. 500 rounds down with no problems

[RCS]

How many times have you cleaned it since installing it? Just curious.

[Moebrown20]

How many times have you cleaned it since installing it? Just curious.

Never.
So far 690 rounds with no problems.
Too lazy to go out today in the rain to shoot another 500. I'll do that next weekend and strip it down afterwards.

[RCS]

I'm a bit prissy with my wife's AR (because it isn't mine), so I have no idea if that's good or not. How many rounds have any of you gone without a good scrubdown?

[Moebrown20]

I'm a bit prissy with my wife's AR (because it isn't mine), so I have no idea if that's good or not. How many rounds have any of you gone without a good scrubdown?

To date, 690.
On sat I'll shoot 5-6 mags and sunday another 5-6 mags before I open it up.

[RCS]

To date, 690.
On sat I'll shoot 5-6 mags and sunday another 5-6 mags before I open it up.

Sorry, I wasn't talking about piston system ARs, but the DI. Didn't mean to throw you off, my bad.

[Moebrown20]

Sorry, I wasn't talking about piston system ARs, but the DI. Didn't mean to throw you off, my bad.

Every other range trip and rain days.

[RCS]

Every other range trip and rain days.

There seems to be a difference so far.

[DavePAL84]

Disadvantages:
-More proprietary parts (not like there's a, 'TDP' on piston guns)
-Carrier tilt (fewest complaints about LWRCi and POF though, I admit)
-More expensive
-Less accurate

Advantages:
-??????

Piston guns are faddish as hell and offer no real advantage over DI in my opinion.

If one wants a piston-operated 5.56, I'd suggest going with something that was designed as such from the get-go and not some shove-a-piston-into-a-DI-gun thing. AR's don't have to be cleaned to keep running--they only need lubrication. Pat Rogers put 28k rounds through an AR-15 with no cleaning, just lubrication.

Some new products, like FailZero, even make lubrication far less of an issue.

[RCS]

I knew I'd se a post from you here. :D Let me ask, I heard those Fail Zero parts are nothing different than regular parts. What's your say?

[Moebrown20]

Piston guns are faddish as hell and offer no real advantage over DI in my opinion.
The Gov is switching over to it. They're even selling off the old DI system: http://www.gunsnet.net/showthread.php?2099-quot-government-ar-15-s-quot


Pat Rogers put 28k rounds through an AR-15 with no cleaning, just lubrication.
How do you lube it without cleaning?
Just throw oil over dirt?

This weekend I'll shoot another 500 (it will bring my total to 1190) or so rounds through it.
Then I'll do a tear down and inspect everything, but from what I can see, I don't have to lube or clean and there's no tilt.

[DavePAL84]

I knew I'd se a post from you here. :D Let me ask, I heard those Fail Zero parts are nothing different than regular parts. What's your say?

You heard wrong. Over 2k rounds without a single drop of lube (started dry), a good portion suppressed and some FA.

I decided at that point that I'd clean every 1k rounds. Due to lack of interest, I'm now almost 1,800 rounds since my last cleaning (still no lubrication). Shot over 500 rounds full-auto out of it last Saturday (20% suppressed and FA), no malfunctions, no problems. It's a good answer. EXO coating beat out all of the Legend coatings in DoD tests. It's also the new coating for mortar and artillery pieces.

That said, FZ is really a niche product. It's real benefit is really towards suppressed or FA weapons (especially shorties)--it's not especially needed for the average 16"+ semi-auto carbine.

Here's a pic from my initial evaluation:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v11/DavePAL84/projects/chamber.jpg


The Gov is switching over to it. They're even selling off the old DI system: http://www.gunsnet.net/showthread.php?2099-quot-government-ar-15-s-quot

Yah, the government does all sorts of things that make no sense. Politicians not listening to the training cadre of the DoD but doing something, 'feel good' instead.

The government also advocates a, 'run it till it breaks' mentality, which I don't agree with either.



How do you lube it without cleaning?
Just throw oil over dirt?

I don't think you understand how this works. The carbon flakes off as it goes. Here are a couple of good reads:
http://vuurwapenblog.com/2010/08/27/cleaning-your-ar-15-is-pretty-much-a-waste-of-time/

http://www.vikingtactics.com/images/article_pdfs/M4-M4A1_Reliability_Issues.pdf

http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2010/06/09/a-clean-wouldnt-hurt/

The real benefit to cleaning is for the inspection of parts, not to keep it running! I know it may seem counter-intuitive at first.

The action of the BCG rips off the carbon. Lubricants keep it running. It's not rocket science and piston guns are flash in the pan. In 15 years we're going to feel very foolish about this entire thing.

Why do AR-15's fail, if it isn't carbon? That's pretty easy to answer, actually:
Easily 90%+ of failures occur due to
-Bad magazines
-Worn/Bad extractor springs/extractors
-Bad ammunition
-User error (lubrication, mismatch of buffers etc)

Not one of the above will be fixed by a piston system.



This weekend I'll shoot another 500 (it will bring my total to 1190) or so rounds through it.
Then I'll do a tear down and inspect everything, but from what I can see, I don't have to lube or clean and there's no tilt.

You'll have to do twice that amount to match what I've done simply with a FailZero BCG. Not to mention the suppressed and FA fire...

I realize you want to justify your purchase and my post may come off as an attack to you. What I'm trying to do is educate and prevent people from wasting their money on shit they don't need.

[Moebrown20]

I realize you want to justify your purchase and my post may come off as an attack to you. What I'm trying to do is educate and prevent people from wasting their money on shit they don't need.

Well, the FZ is the same (AR-15 Basic Kit (http://failzero.com/productaquisition.html?page=shop.product_details&flypage=flypage-ask.tpl&product_id=1&category_id=1)) price what I paid for my system. I wouldn't think that a waste.

[DavePAL84]

Well, the FZ is the same (AR-15 Basic Kit (http://failzero.com/productaquisition.html?page=shop.product_details&flypage=flypage-ask.tpl&product_id=1&category_id=1)) price what I paid for my system. I wouldn't think that a waste.

I also stated that the FZ is a niche product. It's good enough that I've decided every new build I do will have one but I'm not exactly running out to sell off all of my old BCG's either (cause' they work fine for what they do).

[matshock]

I also stated that the FZ is a niche product. It's good enough that I've decided every new build I do will have one but I'm not exactly running out to sell off all of my old BCG's either (cause' they work fine for what they do).

If I lived in a more humid climate I'd probably go that route too- but here I just bake on some miltech 1 and I'm good-to-go with a stock bolt/carrier. Once that stuff is on there, clean-up is just a wipedown.

[Moebrown20]

If I lived in a more humid climate I'd probably go that route too- but here I just bake on some miltech 1 and I'm good-to-go with a stock bolt/carrier. Once that stuff is on there, clean-up is just a wipedown.

How long(and what temp) do you bake it for?

[matshock]

How long(and what temp) do you bake it for?

First I strip off any other lube with non-chlorinated brake parts cleaner then wipe down.

I break down the bolt/carrier but leave in the extractor and along with the charging handle, get them slick with the stuff then bake at 200 on aluminum foil until they're nice and toasty- maybe 30 minutes

I think miltech says no more than 185, but my oven won't go lower than 200 and I just watch to make sure it's not vaporizing.

Then I use a pair of gloves, re-assemble with any excess miltech still on and then manually cycle about a dozen times.

The heat and excess miltech spreads to the rest of the upper receiver nicely.

I don't bother with the barrel- I kind of doubt the stuff sticks to chrome or stays on while putting bullets down it so I just use clp for corrosion protection instead.