Convertible water cooled & air cooled Ruger 10/22 rifle stock

[Bill Akins]

How do you like my latest build? A convertible to air cooled or water cooled dress up stock for the Ruger 10/22 rifle. The water cooled version, is truly water cooled, not a fake water jacket.

I've built 3 prototypes now of my dress up stocks for the Ruger 10/22 rifle that utilize a crankfire trigger activator. My first prototype was an air cooled only model here.....

http://inlinethumb44.webshots.com/43563/2898064580099763970S600x600Q85.jpg

My second prototype was a truly water cooled model here....

http://inlinethumb48.webshots.com/25967/2256467350099763970S600x600Q85.jpg

Both first and second prototypes here....
http://inlinethumb02.webshots.com/45569/2736935930099763970S600x600Q85.jpg

Then I started on my 3rd final prototype.
Although nothing is anodized yet, the following pics give a good representation of how the convertible to air or water cooled, 3rd prototype, dress up stock will look when completed.

On my first air cooled prototype dress up stock I started on about 4 years ago, I designed it from the start to just have a rear spider sight and tall front sight to resemble a Browning anti-aircraft gun. It had not occurred to me to build a water cooled one yet, not to mention an easily convertible to either air or water cooled one like my current third prototype is.


On my first water cooled prototype I used a front sight on the water jacket of my own design that resembles a Browning 1917's hooded front post sight. On the rear I used a sight mount of my own design that holds and allows spring assisted raising of the WW1 Enfield rifle's ladder sight, that I have modified to enable to be used for windage in my sight mount. Works very well and looks historically representative of tripod machine gun's sights from that era my dress up stock resembles.

After making an air cooled and a water cooled dress up stock. I had taught myself a lot. In looking at both my designs I realized there were improvements I could make. On my 3rd prototype, I redesigned the way the water jacket seals and thus made the water jacket easily removable and able to be replaced in just seconds with a perforated air cooling shroud which has the front sight for the air cooled version built in. Thus by changing out the front end of the stock from one version to the other, you can still continue to use the same water cooled rear sight but the front 1919a4 style sight is replaced as in these below three earlier photos showing a mockup of the 1919a4 front sight, and a mockup of my rear sight which I have since changed to only have the triangle on the left side, just like the Browning 1919a4.

http://inlinethumb53.webshots.com/46260/2020004630099763970S600x600Q85.jpg

http://inlinethumb06.webshots.com/25541/2404750370099763970S600x600Q85.jpg

http://inlinethumb15.webshots.com/47374/2611971280099763970S600x600Q85.jpg

So with this 3rd prototype I could have one sighting system for each version that would only change the front sight when switched between the water cooled or air cooled versions.

But then I decided to also be able to use AA spider sights on the air cooled model also
as in these mockups here where the rear and front sight are not yet attached yet....

http://inlinethumb24.webshots.com/44631/2554486480099763970S600x600Q85.jpg

http://inlinethumb46.webshots.com/2989/2035993240099763970S600x600Q85.jpg


Last night I made the quick removable rear ladder sight bracket. That once removed, will not have any unsightly threaded holes. So that I can mount the spider sights on the air cooled version when I switch out the front end. I realized that I could mill off the triangle on the right side, and just keep the triangle on the left side (like on a real Browning 1919) and still be able to secure the sight bracket without it having any kind of looseness or "rock" at all. All that is left to do with this sight bracket is to drill and tap the sight riser plate for the ladder sight's spring, and then to drill the sight protector "ears" and install a small diameter bolt through them and the ladder sight so I can effect windage. The 1917 Enfield rifle ladder sight I am using did not have the ability for windage. It was a flip up type only. So I tapped its pin hole where it flipped up, so it is threaded. The small diameter bolt I will put through it will enable me to turn the bolt to make the ladder sight travel left or right on the bolt, thus effecting windage. I left the sight protective "ears" a little higher than I needed until I mount the ladder sight's spring and the sight itself. Then I may be able to trim the “ears” down some maybe an 1/8th inch or so. So when you look at it now, the protective ears may look a little higher than they will eventually be. When I made them, I figured better to have them too high and be able to trim them after I finished mounting the sight and its spring, than to have made them too short. You can always trim metal, but it is hard to add when you have cut off.

Here's a link to a short video.
CLIP1314.ASF videos from good times videos on webshots (http://good-times.webshots.com/video/3054638310099763970QbFSMA)

....and the pics....


http://inlinethumb08.webshots.com/42119/2805128060099763970S600x600Q85.jpg

http://inlinethumb53.webshots.com/20852/2271451050099763970S600x600Q85.jpg

http://inlinethumb13.webshots.com/32460/2413672880099763970S600x600Q85.jpg

http://inlinethumb64.webshots.com/46143/2119354510099763970S600x600Q85.jpg

http://inlinethumb38.webshots.com/18405/2018853200099763970S600x600Q85.jpg

http://inlinethumb23.webshots.com/28630/2635795210099763970S600x600Q85.jpg




.

[mriddick]

Looks cool, very nice machining as usual.

[Penguin]

That is pretty neat. I think when you are done it will be the best looking 10/22 I have ever seen.

[vit]

Very neat. I like the look of the water cooled gun.
I remember some years ago reading about a water cooled prairie dog rig that somebody built, it used heat exchangers and coolers - the whole cooling set up was in the back of a pick up truck - pretty industrious ;)
Welcome back to the new GunsNet!

[Dr. Gonzo GED]

You sir, are certifiably insane.

And I like that mam.

I like that a lot! :thumbsup:

[awp101]

http://i658.photobucket.com/albums/uu306/awp101_2009/19a46cb0.jpg

[HDR]

Excellent work; some of the best, if not the best I've ever seen!

Awesome!

[Bill Akins]

Thanks fellas. Glad to know y'all liked it.
I'll update on further progress.

I used to be a member when this was the Guns Network LLC.
But when I tried to log in recently, it wouldn't take.
So I figured everything must have changed and my old membership
must have gotten deleted. So I rejoined.

[l921428x]

Welcome back I guess. But that is some really good looking hardware.

[gewehr44]

Awesome. I wonder if its possible to make a 10/22 belt fed...

:machinegun:

[Bill Akins]

Awesome. I wonder if its possible to make a 10/22 belt fed...

:machinegun:

It might be possible if you modified the bolt and fed the gun from the right side. But I haven't thought about that enough to say if it could be done without having to do other modifications to the gun besides the bolt. Which I don't like to do. I like working around an existing guns's design without modifying it. I like things that are "drop in" without having to do mods on the gun's receiver or any of the gun's other parts.

I've had a secret design for several years that I drew, that belt feeds the magazine instead of the gun and is applicable not only to the Ruger 10/22, but all other magazine fed firearms, even pistols, (though that would look and be cumbersome on pistols). No modification to the gun in any way. Just change out a regular mag for the belt fed mag, and no expensive belt fed uppers to buy. But I can't say anything more about it, or about how my belt fed mag design works, due to patent reasons. But it is do'able and I am really surprised no one else has done it already. I started making two of the housings, but that got put on a back burner until I can get this prototype dress up stock completed and to market first. Then I'll get back on the belt fed mag, patent it, then market it. It would make a nice accessory to my dress up stock with a crankfire and a belt fed mag that could have unlimited belts attached to it. Nice accessory for other guns too, like the AK and AR. Sorry I can't say more right now. Hope you understand, patent protection and all that.


.

[El Duce]

Very cool indeed!!

[awp101]

Thanks fellas. Glad to know y'all liked it.
I'll update on further progress.

I used to be a member when this was the Guns Network LLC.
But when I tried to log in recently, it wouldn't take.
So I figured everything must have changed and my old membership
must have gotten deleted. So I rejoined.

This is the same place, just new servers for now. Once things get settled, the plan is to integrate both sets of servers.

[az_paul]

Nice work, Bill!! Congrats!! I'll be following your adventure.

[Bill Akins]

This is the same place, just new servers for now. Once things get settled, the plan is to integrate both sets of servers.

When both sets of servers become integrated, will that mean my old membership from Gunsnetwork LLC will also be available? And if it is, shouldn't my old membership be deleted now that I've re-joined with my new membership? Might get confusing on the member's list otherwise to have myself as a member here twice.

[Bill Akins]

Nice work, Bill!! Congrats!! I'll be following your adventure.

Thanks Paul, glad you like it. I'll post updates at this thread as I get them made.

.

[El Duce]

Any vids of it in action?

[Bill Akins]

Any vids of it in action?
I haven't done any firing videos of this 3rd, final prototype yet. But it will fire exactly the same way my earlier two prototypes do.
You can see them fire at this below You Tube video....
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YFkGUC7Bo5U


.

[awp101]

When both sets of servers become integrated, will that mean my old membership from Gunsnetwork LLC will also be available? And if it is, shouldn't my old membership be deleted now that I've re-joined with my new membership? Might get confusing on the member's list otherwise to have myself as a member here twice.

As I understand it, they will be merged. I can barely turn one of these black boxes on so I have to trust whatever fancy schmancy software used during the process will handle it and whatever gets goofed will be handled manually.

Those that registered here with a different user name than the one they used on the old site might have problems though.:oh:

[swampdragon]

Wow.
NICE job!

[Bill Akins]

As I understand it, they will be merged. I can barely turn one of these black boxes on so I have to trust whatever fancy schmancy software used during the process will handle it and whatever gets goofed will be handled manually.

Those that registered here with a different user name than the one they used on the old site might have problems though.:oh:

I know what you mean. I'm okay with a computer but when it comes to a server I have no idea how to operate that.
Hopefully everything will be alright and a smooth transition. If it messes any of us up to where it won't recognize us, at least we can rejoin like I did.


.

[Bill Akins]

Wow.
NICE job!

Thanks Swampdragon.

.

[Bill Akins]

I did a little redesign on the mount for the tripod. I think it looks better now than just the earlier bent piece of steel it was.
Stronger too. What do you think?

http://inlinethumb15.webshots.com/47822/2546196110099763970S600x600Q85.jpg

http://inlinethumb51.webshots.com/21554/2927143480099763970S600x600Q85.jpg

.

[swampdragon]

http://i658.photobucket.com/albums/uu306/awp101_2009/19a46cb0.jpg

LOL....
I'm gonna steal that picture.
That's pretty cute...ha ha ha

[swampdragon]

Thanks Swampdragon.

.

You're welcome.
That is seriously good work.

Have you ever considered similar builds in other calibers too?
9mm would be "almost" as cheap to shoot as 22lr and might be really fun too.
Slap a high-cap Glock mag in it or something?
I have no idea what action you could use as the base gun though.
Just a passing thought.
Never mind.

Again, NICE job!

[Bill Akins]

You're welcome.
That is seriously good work.

Have you ever considered similar builds in other calibers too?
9mm would be "almost" as cheap to shoot as 22lr and might be really fun too.
Slap a high-cap Glock mag in it or something?
I have no idea what action you could use as the base gun though.
Just a passing thought.
Never mind.

Again, NICE job!

Thanks Swampdragon. Yes I have considered similar builds in other calibers.
I would like to eventually use two recoil operated, semi-auto 12 gauge shotguns, mounted side by side INVERTED into a faux receiver, water cool both barrels with one water jacket, and hopper feed them, and mount the whole thing on a very strong steel tripod. A crankfire trigger activator would be attached to each separate shotgun's trigger and linked together so that when you cranked it, it would fire one barrel and then the other. Can you imagine the devastating firepower with 00 buckshot? But that is a project for the future.

It would look something a bit like this below 1879 twin barreled Gardner gun that is in 45-70 caliber. But mine would be in 12 gauge. Even though a crank fired Gardner/Gatling/Nordenfeldt/Auger/Bailey/etc... gun is NOT a machine gun under the law, you will notice in the caption of the picture that back in 1879 they called it a machine gun.

http://www.gardnerguns.com/images/Chinn/Chinn01.jpg

[awp101]

LOL....
I'm gonna steal that picture.
That's pretty cute...ha ha ha

Remember, if you steal something from me that means it's been stolen twice...:lool:

[swampdragon]

Remember, if you steal something from me that means it's been stolen twice...:lool:

...at least! lol

[swampdragon]

Thanks Swampdragon. Yes I have considered similar builds in other calibers.
I would like to eventually use two recoil operated 12 gauge shotguns, mounted side by side INVERTED into a faux receiver, water cool both barrels with one water jacket, and hopper feed them, and mount the whole thing on a very strong steel tripod. A crankfire trigger activator would be attached to each separate shotgun's trigger and linked together so that when you cranked it, it would fire one barrel and then the other. Can you imagine the devastating firepower with 00 buckshot? But that is a project for the future.

It would look something a bit like this below 1879 twin barreled Gardner gun that is in 45-70 caliber. But mine would be in 12 gauge. Even though a crank fired Gardner/Gatling/Nordenfeldt/Auger/Bailey/etc... gun is NOT a machine gun under the law, you will notice in the caption of the picture that back in 1879 they called it a machine gun.

http://www.gardnerguns.com/images/Chinn/Chinn01.jpg

Yep, OK.
A double 12 ga would be bad ass!

[Penguin]

I would like to eventually use two recoil operated 12 gauge shotguns, mounted side by side INVERTED into a faux receiver, water cool both barrels with one water jacket, and hopper feed them, and mount the whole thing on a very strong steel tripod. A crankfire trigger activator would be attached to each separate shotgun's trigger and linked together so that when you cranked it, it would fire one barrel and then the other. Can you imagine the devastating firepower with 00 buckshot? But that is a project for the future.

It would look something a bit like this below 1879 twin barreled Gardner gun that is in 45-70 caliber. But mine would be in 12 gauge. Even though a crank fired Gardner/Gatling/Nordenfeldt/Auger/Bailey/etc... gun is NOT a machine gun under the law, you will notice in the caption of the picture that back in 1879 they called it a machine gun.

http://www.gardnerguns.com/images/Chinn/Chinn01.jpg

You have a twisted mind. I like it! That is a briliant idea. I sure wouldn't want to be down range of such a gun.

[Bill Akins]

Lol, I've just studied the old NON machine gun, rapid fire guns and their mechanisms a lot. They are my favorite firearms. My above described double barreled crankfired shotguns, would throw up a wall of lead like a constantly firing claymore mine. A literal wall of rain of lead. And they are legal to build and own without any kind of special registration federally, as well as in MOST states. Just no one is utilizing my concept and building them.

The advantage of using todays semi-autos coupled with crankfire trigger activators, is that you do not have to use crank force to move the bolt as you did in the old Gardner gun. All your cranking does with my shotgun crankfire concept, is fire the trigger. The recoil semi-auto action does the rest. This gives a much faster rate of fire with a lot less friction and less force required for you to turn the crank than the force required on the old crank fired guns. Almost as good as a machine gun, but without the high cost of full auto and the hassle of registration.The only downside is one hand has to turn the crank. But with practice, you can get really fast and good at that. But if you would like a REALLY twisted mind concept, consider this concept of mine.....

Study these pics I've collected regarding harmonica guns....

http://good-times.webshots.com/album/564193113IzsjJo

and also study this harmonica rifle at this link....

http://74.6.238.254/search/srpcache?ei=UTF-8&p=Harmonica+rifle&type=yahoo_avg_hs2-tb-web_us&fr=yhs-avg&u=http://cc.bingj.com/cache.aspx?q=Harmonica+rifle&d=4706232029349091&mkt=en-US&setlang=en-US&w=a0069e04,3ad5e0ed&icp=1&.intl=us&sig=DYHhfjsCrY9Mj91epO03uA--

In studying these harmonica guns, I've come to several conclusions. The rectangular harmonica block holding either cartridges or black powder loads would inject bits shaved lead and or burnt powder into your flesh that was immediately below the barrel to harmonica block gap. But....if one were to make the harmonica block where it inserted the end of the cartridge case into the chamber which would make a tight seal when the case expanded (like the Russian Nagant revolver), this would not happen. Also, if one wanted to make a primitive ignition cap and loose black powder and ball version harmonica block, to preclude what is normally known as barrel to cylinder gap lead and powder "spitting", they could make the ends on each harmonica block chamber hole that would go into the breech of the barrel much like a Russian Nagant revolver so that it sealed better and precluded "spitting" lead and powder at the gap.

Another idea I thought about was this design could be applied to make a semi auto or even fully automatic weapon that was not a firearm under the NFA due to it using a non cartridge primitive ignition system loose powder and ball, which under the NFA is not only not a machine gun or even a semi auto, but as a primitive ignition system is not even classified as a firearm under the NFA. Here's how.....

Most of us are familiar with the Webley Fosbery semi automatic revolver and its zig zag pattern cylinder turning design. Here's a pic of that....

http://www.cruffler.com/WebleyFosbery1.jpg

and a link to how it worked.....

http://www.cruffler.com/historic-january01.html

Also a pic of a Mauser zig zag revolver that uses a similar system to turn the cylinder like the Webley Fosbery does, only without it becoming a semi auto like the Webley Fosbery does....

http://www.littlegun.be/arme%20allemande/mauser/mauser%20zig%20zag%201878%20revolver-01.jpg

Basically the Webley Fosbery semi auto revolver's zig zag cylinder turned halfway to the next round when the cylinder and upper receiver recoiled (after firing engaging the zig zag pattern in a stationary lug), then when the spring pushed it back forward, it turned the cylinder the other half of the way which indexed it completely to the next round to be fired. Yes, a semi auto revolver.

Now imagine a black powder, cap and ball primitive ignition system harmonica block that had zig zag patterns in it that would also engage a stationary lug. But instead of the harmonica block turning like the Webley Fosbery's cylinder did, instead this harmonica block recoils rearward and compresses a spring and then goes back forward again which engages the lug to the zig zag pattern and then indexes to the next chamber on the harmonica block. Kind of like just straightening out the Webley Fosbery cylinder into a straight line instead of a cylinder but still utilizing those zig zag cuts with a stationary lug that engages them. Like in this pic of the zig zag pattern cylinder laid out flat.....

http://www.cruffler.com/WebleyFosberyCylinderGrooves.gif

This could be a semi auto or fully auto black powder gun. By using pyrodex pellets it would not gum up nor make smoke but even using pyrodex, it would still be a primitive ignition system, NON firearm, and thus not capable of being a machine gun under the law.

It would be a legal, non required to be registered, cap and ball, primitive ignition system rapid fire gun, that would not be classified as a machine gun nor even classified as a firearm under the NFA.

The hammer that fired the percussion caps on the harmonica block could have a small cup shaped area on the hammer that would totally cover the percussion cap nipple. The nipple would have a larger than normal hole which would be under the percussion cap. When the round fired, more force than normal would blow the percussion cap off the nipple and also cock the hammer for you. The spent percussion cap would be deflected away from the hammer by an incline & cutout built into the hammer "cup" which would expel the spent percussion cap much like some black powder recoil plates do already upon cocking after firing. Look at the recoil plate of your black powder revolver in the area immediately behind the cap nipples. Notice the channel made to direct the percussion cap away and outside of the gun after firing?

Now to make this black powder, primitive ignition system, harmonica gun which is a NON firearm, not a semi auto and not a full auto (under the NFA) not "spit" lead or powder into your hand underneath any harmonica block to barrel breech gap, you could do this. Make the forward end of each harmonica block chamber have a short protrusion on the end of each cylinder in the block that actually went inside the barrel's breech end, much like the Russian Nagant revolver I mentioned earlier. Your spring pushing the harmonica block forward would keep the harmonica block short protrusion pushed tightly against a lip inside the breech end of the barrel, thus sealing the harmonica's block and the barrel from lead and powder "spitting". You would have a gas operated hammer but a simple blowback harmonica block "bolt".

Yes you could also make the hammer cock just by the harmonica block recoiling, and not increase the size of the hole in your percussion cap nipples. That would work too. But I was just thinking of a way to get rid of any percussion caps that might stick to the nipples on the harmonica block so it would be quicker to reload. If you omitted the spent caps being blown off and omitted the larger nipple hole and omitted the hammer cap "cup", then you would just have a blowback gun without any gas operation. With the low pressure of black powder guns, a blowback design would be no problem.

To my knowledge no one has ever utilized the Browning black powder harmonica gun, married to a harmonica block that reciprocated back and forth using the Webley Fosbery zig zag cuts to index it to the next cylinder hole in the harmonica block along with using an increased diameter percussion cap nipple holes and a hammer percussion cap/gas cup to cock the hammer and thus using all these make a semi auto or even full auto black powder, primitive ignition, non firearm, non required to be registered, machine gun that is not legally a firearm and thus not required to be registered.

It's never been done before. But it could be done and with a harmonica block that held say 50 to 100 black powder chambers, and utilizing pyrodex pellets to preclude gumming up and smoke, and also the pyrodex pellets would greatly decrease time reloading the chambers of the harmonica block, I see no reason why this could not be done.

Some might ask WHY? I say why not? It would be fun and a rapid fire gun for range plinking that was not even required to be classified under the NFA as semi auto or full auto, it is not even classified as a firearm under the NFA. If it is not a firearm, it cannot be a semi auto firearm nor a machine gun firearm. It would be exactly what it is described under the NFA as. A primitive ignition, loose powder and ball, non cartridge weapon that is not classified as a firearm in the NFA and indeed is specifically written in the NFA as being exempted to the NFA.

However, state and local laws may vary. So best to check them too.

I've thought about making one like I described many times, but I have too many projects in the works now. Sigh, if I only had the engineering dept and capability of a firearms company at my disposal. Perhaps someone here will make one.

A primitive ignition system, percussion cap, loose powder (or pyrodex) and ball, harmonica "machine gun" that isn't classified as a machine gun under the law, and in fact is not even classified as a firearm under the law, but is classified as a "primitive weapon" and not required to be registered.
No one has ever made this. John Browning's father might have thought of making this if he had pyrodex that would not gum up the barrel if rapid firing back then, which is of course why the machine gun was not really viable until smokeless powder came to be. But using pyrodex today would solve that problem and still keep it classified as a "primitive weapon" status.

They would have loved it in the civil war Lol.

Now you're REALLY going to think I have a twisted mind. Lol.


.

[swampdragon]

Wow Bill.
Your new name is "Wild" Bill.

Build the 12ga!!!!!!!!!!!!
You are like an Evil Genius or something.
Awesome.

[Penguin]

I sit in aw at your briliant ideas. That would sure be cool just to see.

[Bill Akins]

Wow Bill.
Your new name is "Wild" Bill.

Build the 12ga!!!!!!!!!!!!
You are like an Evil Genius or something.
Awesome.

Hee hee. my friends have called me "Wild" Bill for years.
I don't know about me being a genius Lol, but no doubt some people might think I'm evil, Lol.

But seriously, I just like to read and research the really old rapid fire guns and then think about applying some of those principles to today's guns. Not too much in the firearms industry today is really new. Most of the basic principles used today are 70 years old or even older. Even our military machine guns use designs that date back to Lewis, the MG42 and the Brownings.

Hiram Maxim, the so called inventor of the first real machine gun that was not hand cranked, had to have studied David Gardner's gun. The internal mechanism of the Maxim is basically a Gardner that is recoil operated instead of hand cranked. Maxim HAD to have studied the Gardner gun when he invented his first recoil operated machine gun. Unfortunately David Gardner never has gotten the recognition he deserves except from a few people who recognize that the Gardner gun was not only the first water cooled gun in history, but also is the basic operating principle of the Maxim machine gun, except Hiram Maxim made it recoil operated instead of manually cranked.

I look at things like certain attributes of the Gardner gun, the Webley Fosberry automatic revolver, and think about how some of those principles could be applied, modified and adapted to be used on or with firearms today, and how they could be utilized according to the (unconstitutional) firearm LAWS we have today. I guess that comes from learning about those old rapid fire guns and then tinkering with firearms.
I get to looking at this or that, and then thinking...hey, I could use this or that here or there.

For instance, I like the twin water cooled barrels of the Gardner gun and then start thinking how I could invert two recoil operated semi auto shotguns and water cool their barrels in the same way and then attach crankfire trigger activators to each one to enable me to crankfire them similar to the Gardner cranking, but without the friction and force needed for cranking the Gardner, because the semi-auto shotguns action's does most of the work and the crankfire trigger activators just function the trigger.

Then I look at the twin vertical feeds of the Gardner, and although that is okay, then I start thinking about how I could get more cartridges by using a Gatling style Accles feed, or even using the Union Auger's "Coffee mill" gun's V shaped hopper feed to get more cartridge capacity. You see, once you know about how the old rapid fire non machine guns worked, you start thinking about how you could borrow this from this one, and that from that one. Kind of an intellectual scavenging of parts and principles and then putting them together into something that although it may look new, is really just an amalgamation of old parts and principles put together into a way they never were exactly put together before.

Like scavenging the Webley Fosberry zig zag cylinder principle and straightening the cylinder out to be a long black powder feed block that advances itself to the next cylinder so it wouldn't be classified as a "firearm" under the NFA. Then scavenging the principle of blowback to reciprocate that zig zag feed block back and forth. Or scavenging the principle of gas operation to apply it to a gas cup built onto the hammer of a black powder firearm where the gas blows off the primer and thus cocks the hammer for you. Or scavenging the twin water cooled barrels of the Gardner and applying them to two semi auto shotguns. Or scavenging the V shaped hopper feed of the Union Auger, or scavenging the accles feed of the Gatling. See what I mean?

Once you have studied a variety of the old guns, you just naturally learn how you could use their principles in different ways that perhaps they were never used before.

Here's a few pictures and links to help illustrate what I mean.

The Union Auger "coffee mill" gun. See its V shaped hopper feed?
http://inlinethumb18.webshots.com/47825/2866437620099763970S600x600Q85.jpg

Now carefully study the Bruce feed on this Gatling to see how when the cartridges on the left finish feeding, the cartridges on the right automatically will drop down to feed afterwards, thus increasing your cartridge capacity.
http://inlinethumb46.webshots.com/3757/2043702200099763970S600x600Q85.jpg

See in this video of the operation of the innards of the twin barreled Gardner gun, how although it is crank operated, its mechanism, could easily be adapted to recoil or even blowback operation? Exactly as Maxim did using Gardner's basic principles.
http://sports.webshots.com/video/3032365640099763970djpaMv?vhost=sports

Look at these 13 pages of pictures I've collected and it will give you all kinds of ideas.
http://sports.webshots.com/album/576456969NEgXjz

See how once you learn the mechanical principles of a lot of the early guns, you can extrapolate them and use them in other ways, that although are not really new, were never put together in exactly that way before. Anyone can do it once they learn about the old guns and their principles. I get a kick out of thinking about and tinkering with doing that.

I wonder about why no one has expanded upon John Garand's experimenting with primer setback semi-auto operation. Garand found out that he could cause a primer to set back upon firing, that caused the bolt to unlock, and then delayed blowback would operate the semi auto action. No gas tubes and pistons. No recoiling barrel.
But no one has utilized Garands experiments even though they worked. Another thing I have wondered about, is since we can now make a propellant that is formed into a very hard cake and can be attached to the rear of the projectile, how come we and our military still continue to use brass casings? Surely the way the brass expands to seal the bore could be done in some other way and then we and our military wouldn't have not only the expense of brass casings, but wouldn't have to have an ejection port of any kind.

There are so many old principles that aren't being utilized in ways they could be.
I'm not a genius Swampdragon, I just like tinkering and exploring different principles and concepts and how they can work together. Anyone can do it once they study the old guns.


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[Bill Akins]

I forgot to add Swampdragon, yes I would like to build the water cooled twin crankfired shotgun, but I can only do so much! Lol. I have to finish getting this 10/22 prototype stock finished first, then get it manufactured, then work on my belt fed magazine, and maybe then....(if I live long enough lol) I could work on the crankfired shotgun. A project I'd love to do in the future for sure, but not one I can do right now. Maybe one of you fellows here could do it. Just invert two recoil operated semi auto shotgun's receivers into a common faux receiver, water cool their barrels and attach crankfire trigger activators to each trigger and link them together with a rod so they both crank at the same time and fire sequentially. Then hopper feed their bolts. I just don't have the time to do it right now.

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[Penguin]

I wonder about why no one has expanded upon John Garand's experimenting with primer setback semi-auto operation. Garand found out that he could cause a primer to set back upon firing, that caused the bolt to unlock, and then delayed blowback would operate the semi auto action. No gas tubes and pistons. No recoiling barrel.
But no one has utilized Garands experiments even though they worked.

I have wondered about that too. That system kind of went to the scrap heap of history because the army ordanance department didn't like it.


Another thing I have wondered about, is since we can now make a propellant that is formed into a very hard cake and can be attached to the rear of the projectile, how come we and our military still continue to use brass casings? Surely the way the brass expands to seal the bore could be done in some other way and then we and our military wouldn't have not only the expense of brass casings, but wouldn't have to have an ejection port of any kind.

I have often wondered about that as well. It would seem to me what with out a casing you could eliminate the ejection poet which is a potential entry way to dirt and other things that can jam a gun. It would also make it easier I would imagine to make the reciver stronger. You would also not have to worry about an extraction and ejection system. I think what has more or less killed caseless ammo has been high chamber tempetures leading to cookoffs. The ejection of brass I would imagine takes a fair amount of heat out of the reciver.

How ever I have often wondered what kind if a cyclic rate you could get with say a water cooled caseless ammo belt feed machine gun. With out having to worry about ejection just feeding I would bet you could feel ammo into the gun and fire it really fast.

Another thing that I wonder why it never went any where was I think it was remington had a shotgun that fired the ammo electrnicly. The triger would sent a current to the bullet where it would be electronicly fired. Under such a system you could have a really really nice triger pull. Think about it no tension from springs to trip a hammer and all the other things you have to worry about with a tradational firing system. It is basicly the press of a button though this gun used a tradational looking triger to act as the button. The lock time would also be extremely fast, all of which should lead to incressed acuracy. Sadly right after its release I never heard anything more of it.

[Bill Akins]

I like how you think Penguin.

I also think a water cooled caseless ammunition gun could keep the chamber cool enough to prevent cook offs of the caseless propellant.
Perhaps if the water jacket went right up to the very face of the breech of the barrel's chamber so the chamber itself was cooled, rather than just the rest of the barrel being cooled while the chamber was left out of the water jacket. Another thing I have thought about is a shaped charge caseless ammunition.
We all know about how a shaped charge has a conical shape that causes the explosion to be directed primarily in one direction rather than exploding equally 360 degrees. I am wondering if a shaped charge propellant, caseless cartridge, would direct most of its explosion and heat forward into the barrel so that not as much heat would be convected to the chamber walls and this might help prevent cookoffs of succeeding rounds. Just a theory of mine, but a shaped charge caseless ammunition, coupled with a water cooled barrel that also water cools the entire outside of the chamber itself, seems like it would keep the chamber walls cool enough to prevent cookoffs. In fact the shaped charge ammuniton might not even be necessary. Just a theory. Like you Penguin, I'd love to see a gun like that. Unfortunately our military has pretty much abandoned water cooled guns in favor of quick changed barrels for better mobility on the ground. But I think there is still a military tactical need for water cooled guns in vehicles and fortified positions where weight being carried by a soldier is not a concern. In Korea where thousands of human wave attacks were done against our troops, I'm sure they were glad when they had water cooled guns where they did not have down time having to change a red hot barrel. Perhaps in time to come, hand portable, caseless and propellant-less magnetic rail guns, that don't produce heat from an explosion, but only have limited heat from the friction of the bullet on the rifling, will replace the firearms of today. Or no doubt eventually lasers and plasma guns will come to be. But I will always have a soft spot for water cooled guns. Something is so nostalgic and Victorian about them and they invoke in my mind the
Jules Vernian inventive minds of the late 19th and early 20th century firearm designers that I admire so much.


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[Bill Akins]

It's been a while since I last posted about my crank fire creations, so here's an update on my latest 3rd prototype that is convertible between being water cooled or air cooled in under a minute and showing it firing at the range. I used to use Webshots to upload my photos and videos to. But when they closed down, all the pictures and videos I had linked to there in my online posts, disappeared. I still have my pics and videos on my computer and saved to disks, but they disappeared in all my online posts since they were all linked to Webshots. Now I use Photobucket as well as YouTube.

Here's a video I just finished creating showing the evolution of my crank fire dress up kit prototypes versions 1 through 3. The first one is air cooled only. The second one is (truly) water cooled only. But my third prototype is convertible in under a minute to be either air cooled or (truly) water cooled (no fake water jackets here). I learned a lot making the first two, and my 3rd prototype incorporates new design changes that I learned from making the earlier ones. In the last several minutes of my video you will see my latest 3rd prototype firing at the range using the new GSG 110 rd drum mag and it's really spitting out the rounds. Hope you enjoy it. Bill

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xSJi6rvNwIs&feature=youtu.be


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[imanaknut]

Thanks for the update Bill!!!

As a freelance photographer I tell everyone that the current digital age seems so nice as the number of pictures per card makes film seem silly as it was limited to 36 but a card allows thousands in some cases.

The problem is storing your valuable photos and movies. When CD writable were the new thing, they seemed great until you found that the middle part of the three piece disk could break down and render the disk unreadable. Then came the great USB drives which allowed better storage, but you have to be careful not to lose those tiny things, or drop and step on one, or accidentally zap it, or copy to it wrong but at least each has it's own operating system built in to allow it to be used in multiple computers as long as they see it.

The latest crop of remote hard drives, both spinning and solid state are great, but they to are subject to outside influences.

The so-called "Cloud" sounds nice, but as I preach, and you found that the people running the storage site might not be in business tomorrow.

Also we have to hope that dear Microsoft as well as Apple maintain the .jpg format forever.

Personally I save my photos on two, soon to be three remote drives, the first two the spinners, the new one will be solid state. I also save the most valuable pictures on the USB thumb drives, and some are still on the CDs. All photos from the CDs and USB drives are stored on both remote HDs. I also have some saved (although again all are multiply backed up) on my hard drive. These are the ones I access most often.

Sorry for that long statement about photo storage, just trying to let you know that I really care about you not losing anything, especially since you are pushing the boundaries of firearm ownership to allow us to enjoy our infringed arms a lot more!

Keep up the great work Bill, and thanks again for participating on our site!!!

[Bill Akins]

Thanks for the update Bill!!!

As a freelance photographer I tell everyone that the current digital age seems so nice as the number of pictures per card makes film seem silly as it was limited to 36 but a card allows thousands in some cases.

The problem is storing your valuable photos and movies. When CD writable were the new thing, they seemed great until you found that the middle part of the three piece disk could break down and render the disk unreadable. Then came the great USB drives which allowed better storage, but you have to be careful not to lose those tiny things, or drop and step on one, or accidentally zap it, or copy to it wrong but at least each has it's own operating system built in to allow it to be used in multiple computers as long as they see it.

The latest crop of remote hard drives, both spinning and solid state are great, but they to are subject to outside influences.

The so-called "Cloud" sounds nice, but as I preach, and you found that the people running the storage site might not be in business tomorrow.

Also we have to hope that dear Microsoft as well as Apple maintain the .jpg format forever.

Personally I save my photos on two, soon to be three remote drives, the first two the spinners, the new one will be solid state. I also save the most valuable pictures on the USB thumb drives, and some are still on the CDs. All photos from the CDs and USB drives are stored on both remote HDs. I also have some saved (although again all are multiply backed up) on my hard drive. These are the ones I access most often.

Sorry for that long statement about photo storage, just trying to let you know that I really care about you not losing anything, especially since you are pushing the boundaries of firearm ownership to allow us to enjoy our infringed arms a lot more!

Keep up the great work Bill, and thanks again for participating on our site!!!

Thanks Imanaknut. I appreciate your concern and advice very much. I have my firearms photos and videos backed up both on several of my hard drives as well as on disks. Problem is, as you mentioned, disks can go bad and so can hard drives. That's why I have them backed up in multiple places. Even non spinning solid state hard drives can go bad. And as we both know, upload sites can go out of business like Webshots did and caused my photos and videos to all disappear from my earlier posts. As you mentioned disks can degrade. There just doesn't seem to be a real foolproof way to make sure what we store our photos and videos on will always work in the future. So I just do the best I can and hope by storing them in multiple places that if one quits working another one will still work.


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[El Duce]

Nice to see you posting again. You have done some really nice work!