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L1A1Rocker
07-21-2010, 10:38 AM
http://abcnews.go.com/Business/gold-coin-dealers-decry-tax-law/story?id=11211611

Those already outraged by the president's health care legislation now have a new bone of contention -- a scarcely noticed tack-on provision to the law that puts gold coin buyers and sellers under closer government scrutiny.

The issue is rising to the fore just as gold coin dealers are attracting attention over sales tactics.

Section 9006 of the Patient Protection and Affordable Care Act will amend the Internal Revenue Code to expand the scope of Form 1099. Currently, 1099 forms are used to track and report the miscellaneous income associated with services rendered by independent contractors or self-employed individuals.

Coin Dealers Flipping

Starting Jan. 1, 2012, Form 1099s will become a means of reporting to the Internal Revenue Service the purchases of all goods and services by small businesses and self-employed people that exceed $600 during a calendar year. Precious metals such as coins and bullion fall into this category and coin dealers have been among those most rankled by the change.

This provision, intended to mine what the IRS deems a vast reservoir of uncollected income tax, was included in the health care legislation ostensibly as a way to pay for it. The tax code tweak is expected to raise $17 billion over the next 10 years, according to the Joint Committee on Taxation.

Taking an early and vociferous role in opposing the measure is the precious metal and coin industry, according to Diane Piret, industry affairs director for the Industry Council for Tangible Assets. The ICTA, based in Severna Park, Md., is a trade association representing an estimated 5,000 coin and bullion dealers in the United States.

"Coin dealers not only buy for their inventory from other dealers, but also with great frequency from the public," Piret said. "Most other types of businesses will have a limited number of suppliers from which they buy their goods and products for resale."

So every time a member of the public sells more than $600 worth of gold to a dealer, Piret said, the transaction will have to be reported to the government by the buyer.

Pat Heller, who owns Liberty Coin Service in Lansing, Mich., deals with around 1,000 customers every week. Many are individuals looking to protect wealth in an uncertain economy, he said, while others are dealers like him.

With spot market prices for gold at nearly $1,200 an ounce, Heller estimates that he'll be filling out between 10,000 and 20,000 tax forms per year after the new law takes effect.

"I'll have to hire two full-time people just to track all this stuff, which cuts into my profitability," he said.

An issue that combines gold coins, the Obama health care law and the IRS is bound to stir passions. Indeed, trading in gold coins and bars has surged since the financial crisis unfolded and Obama took office, metal dealers said.

The buying of actual gold, as opposed to futures or options tied to the price of gold, has been a particularly popular trend among Tea Party supporters and others who are fearful of Obama's economic policies, gold industry members such as Heller and Piret said. Conservative/libertarian commentators, such as Fox News Channel's Glenn Beck, routinely tout precious metal on the air as being a safe, shrewd investment in an environment in which the financial system -- and paper money backed by the rest of the world's faith in the U.S. government's credit -- is viewed as increasingly fragile.

The recently revealed investigation by California authorities into consumer complaints against Goldline International, which has used Beck as a pitchman, and Superior Gold Group (which has not) has put a spotlight on what one liberal leaning politician, Rep. Anthony Weiner, D-N.Y., calls the "unholy alliance" between gold coin sellers, such as Goldline, and conservative talk personalities, such as Beck.

Beck, who through his spokesman, Matt Hiltzik, declined to comment for this story, and Goldline marketers portray gold coins as a better alternative to owning bullion in the event that the U.S. government ever decides, as it did under FDR in 1933, to make it illegal for private citizens to own physical gold. At that time, the U.S. dollar was still pegged to the price of gold; the gold standard was abandoned during the Nixon administration.

Rep. Daniel Lungren, R-Calif., has introduced legislation to repeal the section of the health care bill that would trigger the new tax reporting requirement because he says it's a burden on small businesses.

"Large corporations have whole divisions to handle such transaction paperwork but for a small business, which doesn't have the manpower, this is yet another brick on their back," Lungren said in a statement e-mailed to ABCNews.com. "Everyone agrees that small businesses are job creators and the engine which drives the American economy. I am dumfounded that this Administration is doing all it can to make it more difficult for businesses to succeed rather than doing all it can to help them grow."

The ICTA's Piret says identity theft is another concern because criminals may set up shops specifically to extract personal information that would accompany the filing out of a 1099.

The office of the National Taxpayer Advocate, a citizen's ombudsman within the IRS, issued a report June 30 that said the new rule "may present significant administrative challenges to taxpayers and the IRS."


I know the gut reaction is "screw them I aint doint that" But if you don't you could loose your business and go to jail after an IRS audit - and you WILL be audited. This is crazy!


I saw the best thing is to completely repeal that whole dame Obama Care bill!

El Jefe
07-21-2010, 10:42 AM
When you look at who makes up the bulk of the gold coin market this isn't surprising I guess. It dovetails nicely with the tanning bed tax.

O.S.O.K.
07-21-2010, 10:47 AM
Doesn't affect silver does it? I hope not, I just started a silver purchase plan - mostly as a little "insurance" should things go south. Probably just my paranoia running away with me, but I thought about it for some time and figured it can't hurt!

I'm not really in the financial position to be popping for gold but silver can be had for $20 an ounce and purchased in small quanitities. Plus, it is supposedly the next big pm star.

Oh and yes, fuck the damned marxist bastards!!!! Gotta get that in...

El Jefe
07-21-2010, 10:49 AM
I'm pretty sure they're gonna fuck you first, especially now that they know about your silver scheme.

matshock
07-21-2010, 10:54 AM
Registration.

Confiscation.

Execution.

O.S.O.K.
07-21-2010, 10:55 AM
Silver scheme? :lol:

El Jefe
07-21-2010, 10:57 AM
They're commin for ya Osok, your kind can't be tolerated in the new Amerika. ;)

L1A1Rocker
07-21-2010, 10:59 AM
Doesn't affect silver does it?

Yep, but it'll be a bit easier for you to stay under the radar on that. No more than $600.00 per dealer per year as I read it.

El Jefe
07-21-2010, 11:02 AM
Might be more prudent to invest in other precious metals, like lead and brass. Just a thought. :)

L1A1Rocker
07-21-2010, 11:37 AM
Might be more prudent to invest in other precious metals, like lead and brass. Just a thought. :)

I read people posting that a lot BUT. After you have your supplies set up to what you believe you need then what? What do you do with 50-100K in CD's and IRA's if you believe the economy is going to take a major shit and make your fiat money worth 20% of that? Physical gold is a way to do that. It is a very affective way of preserving wealth. I'm not talking about having something you can transact with as a 1 oz gold coin is going to be hard to do that with for a varity of reasons. I'm talking about preserving your wealth through the bad times so that you still have it when things are better.

100 oz of gold is real easy to put away and preserve a family's wealth and be able to come back quickly once a recovery is here. Now if you are thinking things will never get better. . . .

El Jefe
07-21-2010, 11:47 AM
I read people posting that a lot BUT. After you have your supplies set up to what you believe you need then what? What do you do with 50-100K in CD's and IRA's if you believe the economy is going to take a major shit and make your fiat money worth 20% of that? Physical gold is a way to do that. It is a very affective way of preserving wealth. I'm not talking about having something you can transact with as a 1 oz gold coin is going to be hard to do that with for a varity of reasons. I'm talking about preserving your wealth through the bad times so that you still have it when things are better.

100 oz of gold is real easy to put away and preserve a family's wealth and be able to come back quickly once a recovery is here. Now if you are thinking things will never get better. . . .

I'm not convinced that it will or can work that way. Right now lots of people are buying gold as a hedge against regular currency being devalued, but, once the currency is in the shitter and these same people try to take advantage of their gold stash the price of gold will plumet. I'm not personally comfortable buying anything when it's at historic highs, sooner or later those holding it will have to sell and at that point the price will adjust to historically normal levels and those trying to use it will be screwed. The time to buy gold was 5 years ago. JMHO, YMMV.

old Grump
07-21-2010, 12:33 PM
Doesn't affect silver does it? I hope not, I just started a silver purchase plan - mostly as a little "insurance" should things go south. Probably just my paranoia running away with me, but I thought about it for some time and figured it can't hurt!

I'm not really in the financial position to be popping for gold but silver can be had for $20 an ounce and purchased in small quanitities. Plus, it is supposedly the next big pm star.

Oh and yes, fuck the damned marxist bastards!!!! Gotta get that in...


Starting Jan. 1, 2012, Form 1099s will become a means of reporting to the Internal Revenue Service the purchases of all goods and services by small businesses and self-employed people that exceed $600 during a calendar year. Precious metals such as coins and bullion fall into this category and coin dealers have been among those most rankled by the change.


It doesn't mention gold, it mentions precious metals so yeah, you are already affected starting January 2012.

If you can buy and are planning to buy you best get your house before then too, 3.5% sales tax hits new buyers after that date. Now you know why our Congress critters did NOT want to read the bill. They put that crap in there but they want deniability that they voted for a tax bill, after all they didn't know it was in there. Right? Uh huh, sure they didn't.

Mark Ducati
07-21-2010, 12:39 PM
I've been buying silver coins off and on the last couple years... only have a couple thousand dollars worth, but did one time buy a gold eagle.

So how does this affect the consumer who buys a gold coin?

Sheesh... where will the madness end? I have a patient that needs about $5000 worth of dental treatment, he also happens to own the jacuzzi-spa store in town, I asked him if he wanted to trade... so this fall when his work is done, I'll be getting a new Jacuzzi just in time for winter. I wonder how the govt. is gonna collect on that ;)

Mark Ducati
07-21-2010, 12:41 PM
One other note... as a small business owner (dental office), I go through $3000 in supplies every month, I also have a $3000 lab bill... wonder how this is going to affect me?

cciota
07-21-2010, 12:54 PM
One other note... as a small business owner (dental office), I go through $3000 in supplies every month, I also have a $3000 lab bill... wonder how this is going to affect me?

It's the Obama Adminstrations job creation plan. You'll have to hire more people just to keep up with all of the new regulations or put you out of business.

O.S.O.K.
07-21-2010, 01:18 PM
Yes, I am well invested in the other precious metals he he he.

And so I've got a year and half to lay up some cash in silver.... or gold. Silver and gold, silver and gold... remember the miner character in Rudolph the Red Nosed Reindeer? lol "Gold!!! lick lick lick... awww nuthin..."

O.S.O.K.
07-21-2010, 01:19 PM
One other note... as a small business owner (dental office), I go through $3000 in supplies every month, I also have a $3000 lab bill... wonder how this is going to affect me?

Before or after the revolution?

AKTexas
07-21-2010, 01:20 PM
If the price of lead and brass increases I'll be screwed then.

Too bad about this I will need to forward my uncle this link.

cciota
07-21-2010, 01:25 PM
When this gets out, just think of the money and business the gold and silver dealers are going to be raking in until this law kicks in.

smittylite
07-21-2010, 03:47 PM
do you happen to do gold fillings Mark??? :)

American Rage
07-21-2010, 04:04 PM
Wow. There is so much to comment here. So, in no particular order:

1. Aren't the commies sneaky!

2. The gold rush is a sign that many people believe the economy is going to collapse. In other words, if dollars are worthless, gold will become the new currency of choice and the value will explode. Those who don't have gold barter. Is silver next? And yes, lead and brass will rise, even more so if packaged with powder and primer.

3. Wow, they'll have to hire at least 2 people to fill out the tax forums! How soon before those are federalized positions? Can you imagine if virtually every midlevel businessman in the nation had two federal employees in his office just to make sure he doesn't cheat Uncle Samao (I think I possibly just coined a new political term?). Naturally, before long the two Uncle Samao employees will be making sure the businessman is paying 2/3 of his profit for the Uncle Samao. Ironically, Uncle Samao's to employees will each recieve approximately 1/3 of of the businessman's profit.

4. So much for transparency. Is anybody keeping count of all the transparency these days?

5. Of course, with the entire financial system nearing collapse from socialist rot and conservative fear, why wouldn't you invest in the only material that has stood the test of time throughout history?

6. If I had the money, I'd a million in gold today, and a half million 10 years ago, and another 5 million in the future.

7. Again, there are substitutes.


Rage

JTHunter
07-22-2010, 12:24 AM
If the price of lead and brass increases I'll be screwed then.

Makes that old idea of melting down tire weights look more appealing, doesn't it?:hitler: