What's so bad about a welfare state?

[Syph]

I know this is a controversial stance to take on this forum, but I think that a welfare state is incredibly beneficial to all those who use it.

Basically, my idea of a welfare state is:


Free Healthcare (Universal, Tax funded)
Free Education (To the age of 16)
Full College Grants (For the brightest 50%)
Full University Grants (For the brightest 30%)
State Housing AKA Council Housing (For those on total incomes at or below £20000)
Disability Benefit (£500 per month to £20,000 per annum)
Unemployment Allowance (2 months maximum)


Welfare is a system designed to help the most vulnerable in society who's position is no fault of their own. The abuse that the Labour government allowed in the UK is not what I am proposing. I am proposing a safety net in our countries that have people living off the state. Nets can break under strain and as they say, hunger is a great motivator.

I'm interested to see your responses. If you don't agree with a certain part, then challenge me. I hope that some of you avoid the whole healthcare thing for the moment and focus on welfare states themselves.

[Richard Simmons]

I know this is a controversial stance to take on this forum, but I think that a welfare state is incredibly beneficial to all those who use it.

Basically, my idea of a welfare state is:


Free Healthcare (Universal, Tax funded)
Free Education (To the age of 16)
Full College Grants (For the brightest 50%)
Full University Grants (For the brightest 30%)
State Housing AKA Council Housing (For those on total incomes at or below £20000)
Disability Benefit (£500 per month to £20,000 per annum)
Unemployment Allowance (2 months maximum)


Welfare is a system designed to help the most vulnerable in society who's position is no fault of their own. The abuse that the Labour government allowed in the UK is not what I am proposing. I am proposing a safety net in our countries that have people living off the state. Nets can break under strain and as they say, hunger is a great motivator.

I'm interested to see your responses. If you don't agree with a certain part, then challenge me. I hope that some of you avoid the whole healthcare thing for the moment and focus on welfare states themselves.

"no fault of their own"

Bullshit. That's the single biggest problem, no personal responsibility. Here's a challenge, what happens when everyone is in college, on disability and living in government housing?

P.S. Higher education is not a right.

[Tx Dogblaster]

I just can't see myself relying on the gov't for any of that stuff. None of the examples given are "rights" they're privileges. It's not the gov't responsibility to provide those things. The gov't should rely on the people for it's subsistence and not the people relying on the gov't. Their responsibility is to uphold our constitution & protect us from foreign invasion. Other than that, they need to leave us the hell alone...

[Syph]

"no fault of their own"

You can't blame everything on themselves. Some people are born severely disabled and some people are born without the mental faculties to be educated beyond 16. The economy controls wages which in turn leads to homeless people without enough money to put down a deposit for a mortgage.


Here's a challenge, what happens when everyone is in college, on disability and living in government housing?

If they can go to college, they won't get very much disability benefit. They live


P.S. Higher education is not a right.

No investment in the future then. Just debt, liability, inability to get a mortgage or progress up the property ladder.

Only the top 30% get into university for free. The rest get apprenticeships.

[Syph]

If they can go to college, they won't get very much disability benefit. They live...

...off the state, because they are vulnerable.

[Dr. Gonzo GED]

P.S. Higher education is not a right.
You know, in most first world nations it is.

But you're right in a way. In the US it is not a "right", it is a "business". And we all know how you hard core conservatives feel about messing with business.

Frankly though, IMHO, it is a gross mistake to not educate every one of our citizens to the highest level they are capapble of achieving. The system we have now breeds the social climate we have now. And we all know how you hard core conservatives feel about our social climate...

[mriddick]

First off nothing is free, someone has to pay for it.

I think the state should only pay and support those things that benefit the state. We should also watch out for making those who don't work equal to those who do otherwise those who don't work will not see any advantage in working. We also need to watch out for only looking to the working class to pay for everything, I think we need to look at creative ways to make the nonworking pay their own way in life.

[Syph]

First off nothing is free, someone has to pay for it.

I think the state should only pay and support those things that benefit the state. We should also watch out for making those who don't work equal to those who do otherwise those who don't work will not see any advantage in working. We also need to watch out for only looking to the working class to pay for everything, I think we need to look at creative ways to make the nonworking pay their own way in life.

On the issue of funding:

10% tax rate on those earning over £21,000, 40% on those earning about £60,000 and 70% on those earning over £1,000,000. So for someone earning £27,000, they would take home £26,400. For someone earning £90,000 they would take home £74,100.
For someone earning £5,000,000 they would take home 1,765,000.

Also a 50% tax rate on all bonuses above £20,000 per annum.

It is a progressive method of taxation on the super rich to benefit the vulnerable.

[Arnulf]

Higher education is free in this country to minorities and foreigners...just not white people.

[Richard Simmons]

You know, in most first world nations it is.

But you're right in a way. In the US it is not a "right", it is a "business". And we all know how you hard core conservatives feel about messing with business.

Frankly though, IMHO, it is a gross mistake to not educate every one of our citizens to the highest level they are capapble of achieving. The system we have now breeds the social climate we have now. And we all know how you hard core conservatives feel about our social climate...

Given the high degree of illiterates graduating from public school would you say they're being educated to the highest level? Attending college should be about desire and ability not funding which is why we have both scholarships and people partying for 4+ years cause mom and dad are paying for it. Neither works like it should. If we were a country of nothing but people with BA or BS after our name we'd still need blue color labor so what's the higher education gotten you.

The fact is the majority of people that expect or demand that "the state" pay for something figure it'll be to their benefit and or they won't really be the ones paying for it.

[Syph]

Higher education is free in this country to minorities and foreigners...just not white people.

That is "positive" discrimination for you. "Positive" my ass. You can't force equality. However, you should definitely be able to seek legal advice if you are excluded from a job or university place because of race.

[Syph]

Given the high degree of illiterates graduating from public school would you say they're being educated to the highest level? Attending college should be about desire and ability not funding which is why we have both scholarships and people partying for 4+ years cause mom and dad are paying for it. Neither works like it should. If we were a country of nothing but people with BA or BS after our name we'd still need blue color labor so what's the higher education gotten you.

Hence why I suggested the state should only pay for the most talented 30% of of the population to go to university.

[Richard Simmons]

You can't blame everything on themselves. Some people are born severely disabled and some people are born without the mental faculties to be educated beyond 16. The economy controls wages which in turn leads to homeless people without enough money to put down a deposit for a mortgage.



If they can go to college, they won't get very much disability benefit. They live



No investment in the future then. Just debt, liability, inability to get a mortgage or progress up the property ladder.

Only the top 30% get into university for free. The rest get apprenticeships.

First off the majority of folks on welfare are neither physically or mentally disabled so why pander to the smallest percentage? Are you saying people with disabilities can't meet your 50% and 30% brightest criteria?

[Richard Simmons]

Hence why I suggested the state should only pay for the most talented 30% of of the population to go to university.

Actually you said "brightest 30%" not most talented. My dog is talented and compared to some, quite bright as well.

[Syph]

First off the majority of folks on welfare are neither physically or mentally disabled so why pander to the smallest percentage? Are you saying people with disabilities can't meet your 50% and 30% brightest criteria?

You are making assumptions. By disabled I mean physically handicapped (paralysis of the legs, arms, whole body); so mentally handicapped that they have difficulty reading and writing (i.e. Down's syndrome) by genetics or accident.

Physically handicapped people will receive some form of support unless they earn more than £60,000 a year and pay the mid tax rate.

[Syph]

Actually you said "brightest 30%" not most talented. My dog is talented and compared to some, quite bright as well.

My mistake. Basically, the top 30% of people who take the SAT or academic test in the final year or high school/college (for the UK).

[Richard Simmons]

You are making assumptions. By disabled I mean physically handicapped (paralysis of the legs, arms, whole body); so mentally handicapped that they have difficulty reading and writing (i.e. Down's syndrome) by genetics or accident.

Physically handicapped people will receive some form of support unless they earn more than £60,000 a year and pay the mid tax rate.

Bullshit again. The individuals that you describe are in fact not the majority in this country. Perhaps they are in England.

[Syph]

Bullshit again. The individuals that you describe are in fact not the majority in this country. Perhaps they are in England.

No, that's the whole point. You are funding the lives of the tiny unfortunate minority. They cannot help themselves so they require the help of the state.

[Syph]

No, that's the whole point. You are funding the lives of the tiny unfortunate minority. They cannot help themselves so they require the help of the state.

The cheats can starve for all I care. Lazy beggars.

[mriddick]

Higher education is free in this country to minorities and foreigners...just not white people.

No, believe it or not education is free if you are poor enough, I've known quite a few very poor people of all races who went to college free, it's the people who just make enough on up that pay.

[mriddick]

On the issue of funding:

10% tax rate on those earning over £21,000, 40% on those earning about £60,000 and 70% on those earning over £1,000,000. So for someone earning £27,000, they would take home £26,400. For someone earning £90,000 they would take home £74,100.
For someone earning £5,000,000 they would take home 1,765,000.

Also a 50% tax rate on all bonuses above £20,000 per annum.

It is a progressive method of taxation on the super rich to benefit the vulnerable.

On what do you base any of these figures?

[Arnulf]

That is "positive" discrimination for you. "Positive" my ass. You can't force equality. However, you should definitely be able to seek legal advice if you are excluded from a job or university place because of race.

That is just the way it is in this country....government sponsored racism.

[Syph]

On what do you base any of these figures?

I made them up but the first two tax brackets are based on the British tax system. If I was in charge of setting taxes, I would set them at this. The rest is mathematics.

[sevlex]

What's so bad?

Eventually you run out of other people's money....that's what's so bad.

[mriddick]

I'd rather have a tax system that is tied to the budget, whatever the budget is the tax system would be adjusted to pay for it. I would rather the tax rates be tied to each other rather then some arbitrary progressive scale.

Think of this way,
the bottom 1-10% of wage earners pay for 1% of whatever the budget is,
11-25% might pay for 5%,
26-50% would pay for 10%,
51-75 would pay for 15%,
76-90% would pay for 20%
and those on up for the rest (49%).
Every year the rate within each group would be adjusted to balance to budget.

[old Grump]

If the majority of the people can get what they want even without working for it they won't work. If a man working is supporting all those who don't work and they get the benefit of his earnings while he gets taxed more for being productive expect him to rebel, disappear into the black market economy and you wont get any more of your socialist manna from him anymore. Problem with a socialist society is there is no incentive to improve yourself because the state will take it from you and nobody gets anything. Think USSR.

[Syph]

I'd rather have a tax system that is tied to the budget, whatever the budget is the tax system would be adjusted to pay for it. I would rather the tax rates be tied to each other rather then some arbitrary progressive scale.

Think of this way,
the bottom 1-10% of wage earners pay for 1% of whatever the budget is,
11-25% might pay for 5%,
26-50% would pay for 10%,
51-75 would pay for 15%,
76-90% would pay for 20%
and those on up for the rest (49%).
Every year the rate within each group would be adjusted to balance to budget.

I like. Cut your military spending by 10-20% and you'll have enough money for universal healthcare and government reserve.

[Syph]

If the majority of the people can get what they want even without working for it they won't work. If a man working is supporting all those who don't work and they get the benefit of his earnings while he gets taxed more for being productive expect him to rebel, disappear into the black market economy and you wont get any more of your socialist manna from him anymore. Problem with a socialist society is there is no incentive to improve yourself because the state will take it from you and nobody gets anything. Think USSR.

This wouldn't fund for a majority. It would fund less than 1% of the population for their entire lives and fund the healthcare and education up to age 16 for 100% of the people. Healthcare is not food nor income, and you won't get much nutrition eating textbooks. The idea is that 99.9% of people work and pay taxes to pay for their healthcare and education. End of. If you are unemployed for more than two months you can starve.

[mriddick]

I like. Cut your military spending by 10-20% and you'll have enough money for universal healthcare and government reserve.

LOL healthcare, after years or wrangling over the issue we got a 1.1 trillion dollar system that covers a person at only $34,000 a pop. My system would allow for all the military spending as well as healthcare the people care to pay for since those programs at the moment would be paid for it on a yearly basis.

[matshock]

Welfare states are degraded and sycophantic nations- fuck that.

Yo go ahead and post statistics- all I need are the images of slovenly, angry, sterile, useless (educated or no) euro-folk protesting the end of their welfare states all over the news.

They're gonna be stitching Nikes together 18 hours a day for chicoms in another 10 years, and if we don't roll back our government soon we won't be too far behind them.

[mriddick]

I would agree the idea is not to make a welfare state but one where everyone has a stake in how taxes are raised and spent.

[old Grump]

This wouldn't fund for a majority. It would fund less than 1% of the population for their entire lives and fund the healthcare and education up to age 16 for 100% of the people. Healthcare is not food nor income, and you won't get much nutrition eating textbooks. The idea is that 99.9% of people work and pay taxes to pay for their healthcare and education. End of. If you are unemployed for more than two months you can starve.
And Social Security was a limited program to help retiree's with a small fixed income, a crutch, no more, no less and there would be a special fund set aside that wouldn't be touched for anything except payouts to the people who payed in. That worked out well didn't it? You cannot plaster numbers on paper and not take into account changing demographics, and the people factor. In this case politicians using the program to garner votes for themselves at the expense of our grandchildren. Only a damn fool would believe the program wouldn't expand into other areas and the tax to fund it would stay small and static.

[HDR]

I like. Cut your military spending by 10-20% and you'll have enough money for universal healthcare and government reserve.


That is for the moment.

AFA, "0bamacare" after you learn what is in it; very few would trust those that wrote it with anything as important as our health.

[Randomluck]

What's so bad about a welfare state?

Look around Sparky and see your answer.
In case you need a hint, everything is turning to shit from overblown social programs. Also see the other countries who tried to provide for the useless, Greece, Ireland, Spain ect.

Now get off your lazy ass and get a job and be responsible for yourself for a change.

[Richard Simmons]

I made them up but the first two tax brackets are based on the British tax system. If I was in charge of setting taxes, I would set them at this. The rest is mathematics.

And which of those brackets would you fall into?

[Moebrown20]

On the issue of funding:

10% tax rate on those earning over £21,000, 40% on those earning about £60,000 and 70% on those earning over £1,000,000. So for someone earning £27,000, they would take home £26,400. For someone earning £90,000 they would take home £74,100.
For someone earning £5,000,000 they would take home 1,765,000.

Also a 50% tax rate on all bonuses above £20,000 per annum.

It is a progressive method of taxation on the super rich to benefit the vulnerable.

What????
You mean to tell me, If I went to school and hit the books hard, got a degree, found a job and made it to the top of the ladder, I have to give you most of my money!!!

Why should I give you 50, 60, 70% of my money?
I bust my ass to get where I am, why can't you?
Because you don't feel like pushing that hard, I have to give you money, food healthcare.


If it was a shtf and you had no food what would you do? Stay home and wait for the gov to feed you or try to find/hunt for something?

[Integratedj]

Ok, you are either a completely worthless little pussy with a weeping mangina, or a troll of some sort only here to argue. Either way, you're an Asshat.
Seriously? You believe shit like this? What are you, 17-19 and know how to make the world a better place? Better stop and think it through a little further.

The Vulnerable? What to do with them??? 2 things can happen. Their Family takes care of them, or they pass on. That's it. It sounds cold, but that's life. No one that isn't my flesh and blood is my responsibility. Do I donate and try to help various charities? Absolutely, but I do it by choice, not by the force of the Government. I choose who I help based on if they are worth it or not.
We are all born equal here in America, it is our choices and our ambition that decide our futures. If some one has obviously been a worthless piece of shit their whole life, any handout from me is not going to change their thought process, it will only enable it further.
I was homeless at one time. You know what put me there? Bad fucking decisions, not "state controlled wages" or "the man" or any other self pitying bullshit. All of the guys that I lived with in that canyon? Same thing as me. Piss poor decisions throughout their lives. All of them there because of themselves. Some realize it and get out, some stay dumb as fuck and remain homeless. I have no sympathy for those that will not even try to help themselves. Fuck them, that's what death is for. Some make it, and some don't. That's the way a little game called life works. It isn't "Fair", it's Real.

I busted my ass and made good decisions and guess what... I'm no longer homeless, I'm married, have a great life, a house, a car for my wife, a bad ass truck for me, lot's of Toys and the only thing holding me back now is dumb ass mother fuckers like you sucking at the Tit of Uncle scam, draining from the rest of us through higher and higher taxation to keep up with "What is owed to people like you", and "What is only fair to take". Everything you listed requires money, and for people like you that means "Other people's Money". It's just pathetic that there are people who think that what I bleed and sweat for is theirs to take because they feel entitled to the New American dream of "Everything Free". Fuck you, Get a job and earn your dream like an American should. Otherwise, move your ass over to the European Utopia.

A house with a mortgage is not a right. If you can't afford it there's a thing called "Rent". If you can't afford that, there are things called "Room Mates". If you still can't afford it... You aren't trying. Period. No excuses. Grow a fucking nutsack and be a man already.

Wealth is not finite. You cannot look at wealth like a pie chart where some guys get a big slice and you get that little "unfair" slice because there is nothing left to go around. It doesn't work that way. Any one can have a big slice, you just have to work for it. Success in life creates wealth. It doesn't move it from one guy to the next, it grows and builds. If I do well, I in turn buy more things which makes the next guy do well. It then repeats over and over.
I am far from wealthy, and yes, I get Envious at times when I am working on really wealthy people's houses and I see an incredible car or huge gun collection etc... Do I then think of ways that the government should step in and make it "fair"? Fuck no, I think of ways that I can earn that kind of money and buy those kinds of things. I try to improve myself until I am at that level instead of coming up with ways to drag every one else down to my current level. If the Gov comes in and taxes the shit out of the wealthy in order to "Provide what's fair" to pussies like you, then guess what... The wealthy don't have the money anymore to buy as much from me, I then don't have as much money to buy from the next guy, and it keeps going like that fucking every one, except the little bitch that is sucking at the Tit still, wondering why life has been so cruel. If they fail to extend the tax cuts in january, you're going to find out exactly what I mean. It's going to fucking hurt every one.

[Dr. Gonzo GED]

Given the high degree of illiterates graduating from public school would you say they're being educated to the highest level?
Obviously they are not "being educated to tehir highest level of potential".

For anyone to be given a diploma they can't read is a damn shame, and blatant evidence of a failed system. Neih, a failed society, as it is PUBLIC EDUCATION that fuelded the age of reason, and the subsequent industrial revolution, thus enableing the modern civilisation that we so cherish.

Why you would embrace such failure as the status quo, instead of supporting the use of taxes to turn that trend around is completely beyond me.

[Tx Dogblaster]

This whole idea of the gov't running everything and benefiting ANYBODY other than the lowest of life forms is laughable at best. Has Syph ever BEEN to New Orleans or the South side of Chicago? If he had then he'd see exactly what gov't programs pay for. Tell us how well that shit's working in the UK? Canada? Why do people come from all over the world to use our doctors? (who came from India or some other 3rd world shit hole but that's a different rant) This is still the greatest country in the world, even as jacked up as the current regime is. If we follow the socialistic path as much of Europe has then we'll turn into Euro trash pansies too except without the European accent...

Don't know how much sense that made but this subject and illegals just piss me off... Rant Off

[TEN-32]

I'd rather have a tax system that is tied to the budget, whatever the budget is the tax system would be adjusted to pay for it. I would rather the tax rates be tied to each other rather then some arbitrary progressive scale.

Think of this way,
the bottom 1-10% of wage earners pay for 1% of whatever the budget is,
11-25% might pay for 5%,
26-50% would pay for 10%,
51-75 would pay for 15%,
76-90% would pay for 20%
and those on up for the rest (49%).
Every year the rate within each group would be adjusted to balance to budget.

Interesting. I wonder if this would produce more or less government. I wonder if we would pay more or less personal federal income tax. Don't forget about the business taxes. As to the original post...the people you are proposing to give a free college education 1. can't read and 2. would prefer an Escalade with 22" rims and a $10,000 subwoofer system and a gold grill in their face...its all about rollin dirty not learning and earning.

Fuckin dumbass.

[TEN-32]

Obviously they are not "being educated to tehir highest level of potential".

For anyone to be given a diploma they can't read is a damn shame, and blatant evidence of a failed system. Neih, a failed society, as it is PUBLIC EDUCATION that fuelded the age of reason, and the subsequent industrial revolution, thus enableing the modern civilisation that we so cherish.

Why you would embrace such failure as the status quo, instead of supporting the use of taxes to turn that trend around is completely beyond me.

If you own a home, look at your property tax bill. Specifically, the percentage that you are paying to the school districts. It will make you truly sick to your stomach.

[Richard Simmons]

Obviously they are not "being educated to tehir highest level of potential".

For anyone to be given a diploma they can't read is a damn shame, and blatant evidence of a failed system. Neih, a failed society, as it is PUBLIC EDUCATION that fuelded the age of reason, and the subsequent industrial revolution, thus enableing the modern civilisation that we so cherish.

Why you would embrace such failure as the status quo, instead of supporting the use of taxes to turn that trend around is completely beyond me.

In case you don't know it taxes are producing those shameful results now so how will more people and more money suddenly fix what's so obvioulsy broken? Why would you embrace taking money away from anyone to give it in any form to someone else?

[HDR]

The difference is simple; you prefer what we call a nanny state and we don't want it. Now that we have settled that the next question becomes in your opinion does the government have the right to force us to accept what we don't want?

We don't see what you have working all that well; so why would anyone want it?

[Dr. Gonzo GED]

In case you don't know it taxes are producing those shameful results now so how will more people and more money suddenly fix what's so obvioulsy broken? Why would you embrace taking money away from anyone to give it in any form to someone else?
Your right. Lets just keep populating our country with succesive generations of ignorant children until your generation is completely outnumbered by violent mouth breathers. We are on the brink of that today. There is no excuse for such a thing in this country. Just because the system is shit, doesn't mean that it is foolhardy to offer higher education to our citizens. Are you seriously trying to argue that education is a waste of time, simply because is is being missmanaged right now?

We need to be producing engineers, not short order cooks. And your seriously going to come at me with "why spend money? it's done broke already..."

Is this the real Richard Simmons, or did someone hack your account? Dont take offense, but I kind of recalling you being more shrewd in the past, and not prone to the gross oversights in your arguments that you are displaying right now.

[Dr. Gonzo GED]

If you own a home, look at your property tax bill. Specifically, the percentage that you are paying to the school districts. It will make you truly sick to your stomach.
Only because they rubber stamp morons that they were suposed to be turing into functional thinking adults.

[Richard Simmons]

Your right. Lets just keep populating our country with succesive generations of ignorant children until your generation is completely outnumbered by violent mouth breathers. We are on the brink of that today. There is no excuse for such a thing in this country. Just because the system is shit, doesn't mean that it is foolhardy to offer higher education to our citizens. Are you seriously trying to argue that education is a waste of time, simply because is is being missmanaged right now?

We need to be producing engineers, not short order cooks. And your seriously going to come at me with "why spend money? it's done broke already..."

Is this the real Richard Simmons, or did someone hack your account? Dont take offense, but I kind of recalling you being more shrewd in the past, and not prone to the gross oversights in your arguments that you are displaying right now.

No it's me we're not talking about spending money, we're talking about taking money from Americans who work for a living and using it to provide free college to others. Colleges dominated by liberal. leftist idealogs by the way.

Why not fix the problems with public school which is tax payer funded? You call them "gross oversights" because they don't agree with your ideology. May I ask, are you going to college or planning on going? In which of the OP's tax brackets would you be in? You also live in California IIRC which would explain the difference in mindset as well as our age difference. If you'd like to give up a much larger portion of you paycheck to pay for other peoples college feel free, curious how much extra a month you'll be letting go of? For me, I'd like to keep more of what I earn, not less.

[Richard Simmons]

Only because they rubber stamp morons that they were suposed to be turing into functional thinking adults.

So are you a home owner and do you pay taxes into the school system?

[Richard Simmons]

We need to be producing engineers, not short order cooks. And your seriously going to come at me with "why spend money? it's done broke already..."
.

So if everyone is an engineer we'll no longer need short order cooks, or firemen or bank tellers or..................................please. Where is your motivation really coming from, it sure isn't the betterment of mankind though education.

[mriddick]

Interesting. I wonder if this would produce more or less government. I wonder if we would pay more or less personal federal income tax. Don't forget about the business taxes. As to the original post...the people you are proposing to give a free college education 1. can't read and 2. would prefer an Escalade with 22" rims and a $10,000 subwoofer system and a gold grill in their face...its all about rollin dirty not learning and earning.

Fuckin dumbass.

Again nothing is free, there simply can't be a free college education. If people are propsing a free education system then they are proposing something that can't be done.

[matshock]

So if everyone is an engineer we'll no longer need short order cooks, or firemen or bank tellers or..................................please. Where is your motivation really coming from, it sure isn't the betterment of mankind though education.

Even worse that that- someone with an expensive engineering degree that cleans pools because all the engineering jobs got outsourced to Dubai.

my BIL is an electrical engineer and he spends all day being a repair man at a microchip FAB- they've been trying to move it to China for years but haven't been able to finalize a deal yet. When they do....

[Ronwicp]

I think we spend way too much time asking "How are we going to fund XYZ?" instead of asking "Why the fuck are we funding this?"

It may sound harsh to some folks, but that just shows how soft the world has become.

Need an education, got work for it. Cant get one, go dig a ditch.
Need a house, work for it. Cant get one, live with family or friends. Dont expect me to pay for it.
Need some food, not my problem.

Now, that is not to say that I wouldn't help someone if they are in need. Hell, I do it all the time, more than most do I bet. But the difference is I do it of my own choice, I am not forced at gunpoint by the government to do it.

The idea that someone that makes more should pay higher taxes to fund this crap is just stupid. Why is he being punished for being more successful?

[HDR]

I think we spend way too much time asking "How are we going to fund XYZ?" instead of asking "Why the fuck are we funding this?"

It is the Left and the RINOs clinging to what they did wrong and isn't wanted.


The idea that someone that makes more should pay higher taxes to fund this crap is just stupid. Why is he being punished for being more successful?

That is a long way of saying 0bama's re-distribute wealth.

I already pay too much in taxes. Why do I pay too much because I am not pleased with what I get for what I am paying.

I drive by subsidized housing and think how run down it looks. In comes the Fed and spends a huge amount of money renovating and in less than a year it looks the same again. If they can not live there without trashing it, or dealing drugs etc then kick them out.

No one deserves the opportunity to own a home; they earn it same as we did.

If a person worked all their lives and then needs to go into assisted living, the government takes what they have. If they didn't work the government pays to sustain them better than those who worked. For example, the government pays for a $106 pedicure.

In America the government discriminates against the working for those who have never worked. Even if everyone has needed these benefits; IMO, unless someone is genuinely disabled no one needs these benefits their whole life!



Why are people who work discriminated against.

[MOP]

California, before the current disaster, was well known

as a very generous welfare state.

[Syph]

Yo go ahead and post statistics- all I need are the images of slovenly, angry, sterile, useless (educated or no) euro-folk protesting the end of their welfare states all over the news.

If you don't believe statistics then you have a fragile ego. What can I say? Even I hate being wrong but I change my mind, unlike most people.


Only a damn fool would believe the program wouldn't expand into other areas and the tax to fund it would stay small and static.

It's about getting the right people to government. It's not my fault people are greedy.


What's so bad about a welfare state?

Look around Sparky and see your answer.
In case you need a hint, everything is turning to shit from overblown social programs. Also see the other countries who tried to provide for the useless, Greece, Ireland, Spain ect.

Now get off your lazy ass and get a job and be responsible for yourself for a change.

And yet the UK thrives with the NHS and state schooling... the Tories are cutting the lazy cheats out of the system. It's exactly the type of welfare that should be promoted. Work, or starve...

By the way, I have a job as a dishwasher.


What????
You mean to tell me, If I went to school and hit the books hard, got a degree, found a job and made it to the top of the ladder, I have to give you most of my money!!!

The majority of rich people work hard... Really? I don't see Richard Branson and the fat cat bankers going to work at 5am. The rich don't need to work and pay themselves horrendously big salaries and bonuses. They are exploiting all those who work under their employment.


Why should I give you 50, 60, 70% of my money?
I bust my ass to get where I am, why can't you?
Because you don't feel like pushing that hard, I have to give you money, food healthcare.

Because some people are disabled and as thick as a plank. They will never be paid enough in a million years.

Also, don't you see the problem with greed of this sort? The rich should help out everybody because they are in a privileged and should contribute as such for the betterment of society itself. If they are forced to invest in the health and education of society they will improve it by leaps and bounds.


Why do people come from all over the world to use our doctors?

Your doctors are a mockery of medicine. Sure, they have the best training in the world but the system they work under in tasteless and barbaric. The USA spends 16% of GDP on medical treatments which in turn in invested into experimental treatments. They are very happy to perform expensive treatment and cripple people financially. Those coming from abroad to work there are money-grabbing loons who should stay the hell away from patients.

You have the best doctors in the world but the system in which they work is regressive.

http://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/health-and-families/health-news/doctors-rate-nhs-as-best-in-the-world-1814790.html


The difference is simple; you prefer what we call a nanny state and we don't want it.

I want a welfare state that forces everyone that can work to work. The lazy handout beggars will starve to death.

[samiam]

I think we can all agree that our tax system needs a major overhaul. What would fix it? Any proposals would be met with cheers by some jeers by others. Education? First it needs to get out of the social engineering business, get back to teaching people HOW to think rather than WHAT to think. The best historical comparison I can come up with is that public education today is much like the church was in the dark ages.

[matshock]

If you don't believe statistics then you have a fragile ego. What can I say? Even I hate being wrong but I change my mind, unlike most people.


Bullshit- people are protesting and rioting in Europe because welfare states are crumbling and their economies are collapsing because of it. Smart ass quips mean nothing and you statistics contradict plain facts.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fyq7WRr_GPg

[Richard Simmons]

Not to disparage anyone who has a job but it's interesting that a "dishwasher" has all sorts of ideas on what tax rate everyone else should be paying when it would seem a fair assumption (unless dishwashers in GB make more then they do here) the he won't be in any of the tax brackets that he's proposed.

It's always those with less that want to take from those with more rather than rise to the top, they seek to bring the top down. Given the decline of the human race it's not a surprise, just a disappointment.

[Moebrown20]

Because some people are disabled and as thick as a plank. They will never be paid enough in a million years.

Also, don't you see the problem with greed of this sort? The rich should help out everybody because they are in a privileged and should contribute as such for the betterment of society itself. If they are forced to invest in the health and education of society they will improve it by leaps and bounds.

If this was the case, then no one would strive to make it. They would just do enough to get by.
No TV, no radio, no sports no competition. Their will be no push because it would be taken away by the gov.
All the jobs would go overseas due to this tax rule, then what?

[63DH8]

Two things:
1. Nothing is for "free". Someone has to pay for it.
2. Things that are "given", are usually not appreciated and are ultimately abused.

[Dr. Gonzo GED]

No it's me we're not talking about spending money, we're talking about taking money from Americans who work for a living and using it to provide free college to others. Colleges dominated by liberal. leftist idealogs by the way.

Why not fix the problems with public school which is tax payer funded? You call them "gross oversights" because they don't agree with your ideology. May I ask, are you going to college or planning on going? In which of the OP's tax brackets would you be in? You also live in California IIRC which would explain the difference in mindset as well as our age difference. If you'd like to give up a much larger portion of you paycheck to pay for other peoples college feel free, curious how much extra a month you'll be letting go of? For me, I'd like to keep more of what I earn, not less.
Already went to college. And I'm up to my eyeballs in debt for it. In any other first world nation I would not be. And yes, I would pay more taxes if it meant my children had the option of going to college out of our collective pocket, instead of their own future pockets like I had to do.

The "gross oversights" I mention have more to do with your argument being flwed. Specifically, that it portrays a society more akin to apathied era South Africa, than our own nations ideals of equal oportunity and personal freedom for all. You mention my "ideology" as if I have one. I say that anybody who wants to should be able to get a higher education without going into debt, and you compare me to a Marxist moonbat? Seriously? Fuck you. Since you wouldn't know a proper argument from the hole in your as where you speak from, I'm just going to throw in the towel and give you some ad hominem, because you sound like a stupid ass hole, and you don't deserve the effort.

BTW, you want to know why I live in California? Because that's where I was able to get a job that could push me into the next tax bracket, hence "move up in the world" you dumb piece of shit. But by your standards, I should be flipping burgers, and not able to read. Because that's what we need in this country. But screw me for working and comtributing right? Because you dont agree with my "goegrphic location". Shit, that's not even one of your precious "ideologies", it's the coordinats on a map. (Nice five dollar word BTW, did you spend your whole allowance on that?) That's what you've got for an argument huh? "Der, you live in california. you must be unemployed, uneducated, and a gay hippie minority."

Again, fuck you.

Don't even bother responding. Your too fucking stupid to cary on a conversation with. (Maybe free college would have helped you out...)

[Richard Simmons]

Already went to college. And I'm up to my eyeballs in debt for it. In any other first world nation I would not be. And yes, I would pay more taxes if it meant my children had the option of going to college out of our collective pocket, instead of their own future pockets like I had to do.

The "gross oversights" I mention have more to do with your argument being flwed. Specifically, that it portrays a society more akin to apathied era South Africa, than our own nations ideals of equal oportunity and personal freedom for all. You mention my "ideology" as if I have one. I say that anybody who wants to should be able to get a higher education without going into debt, and you compare me to a Marxist moonbat? Seriously? Fuck you. Since you wouldn't know a proper argument from the hole in your as where you speak from, I'm just going to throw in the towel and give you some ad hominem, because you sound like a stupid ass hole, and you don't deserve the effort.

BTW, you want to know why I live in California? Because that's where I was able to get a job that could push me into the next tax bracket, hence "move up in the world" you dumb piece of shit. But by your standards, I should be flipping burgers, and not able to read. Because that's what we need in this country. But screw me for working and comtributing right? Because you dont agree with my "goegrphic location". Shit, that's not even one of your precious "ideologies", it's the coordinats on a map. (Nice five dollar word BTW, did you spend your whole allowance on that?) That's what you've got for an argument huh? "Der, you live in california. you must be unemployed, uneducated, and a gay hippie minority."

Again, fuck you.

Don't even bother responding. Your too fucking stupid to cary on a conversation with. (Maybe free college would have helped you out...)

Looks like you've lost the arguement since you decided to take the low road but that's you're choice and in your case probably a good one. Enjoy your day.

[Syph]

Bullshit- people are protesting and rioting in Europe because welfare states are crumbling and their economies are collapsing because of it. Smart ass quips mean nothing and you statistics contradict plain facts.

The rioting in France is due to raising the pension age. The rioting in Spain is due to its enormous debt due to bloated public services.

It's interesting you picked that UKIP arsehole Nigel Farage as the voice of Britain. He's a powerless MEP. He won't have much more to say when the EU shuts up shop. Good riddance to him and the undemocratic EU.

[Syph]

Not to disparage anyone who has a job but it's interesting that a "dishwasher" has all sorts of ideas on what tax rate everyone else should be paying when it would seem a fair assumption (unless dishwashers in GB make more then they do here) the he won't be in any of the tax brackets that he's proposed.

I'm 17 and going to medical school. I'll pay far more tax then average to help out my fellow "comrade"! (Sorry, couldn't help myself.)


It's always those with less that want to take from those with more rather than rise to the top, they seek to bring the top down. Given the decline of the human race it's not a surprise, just a disappointment.

Typical conservative view of human nature. Would you rather live in the 1880's than today? We have come so far and accomplished so much. All you have to contribute is your selfish grumbles. As far as you care, you want to pay less taxes to fund your kids through college. Yet if the richer pay more tax than they do at the moment, your children could go to college on their success.

Force re-investment in the future is never a bad thing.

[Richard Simmons]

I'm 17 and going to medical school. I'll pay far more tax then average to help out my fellow "comrade"! (Sorry, couldn't help myself.)



Typical conservative view of human nature. Would you rather live in the 1880's than today? We have come so far and accomplished so much. All you have to contribute is your selfish grumbles. As far as you care, you want to pay less taxes to fund your kids through college. Yet if the richer pay more tax than they do at the moment, your children could go to college on their success.

Force re-investment in the future is never a bad thing.

Sorry but being lectured by a 17 year old is comical at best and mildly annoying at least. Rather then tell me what you will do came back and tell me and everyone else what you have done.

The old adage comes to mind, "If your not a liberal when you're young you have no heart, if your not a conservative when you are old you have no brain". Let's hope you find your brain sooner than later.

[Randomluck]

I'm 17 and going to medical school. I'll pay far more tax then average to help out my fellow "comrade"! (Sorry, couldn't help myself.)



Typical conservative view of human nature. Would you rather live in the 1880's than today? We have come so far and accomplished so much. All you have to contribute is your selfish grumbles. As far as you care, you want to pay less taxes to fund your kids through college. Yet if the richer pay more tax than they do at the moment, your children could go to college on their success.

Force re-investment in the future is never a bad thing.

Grow up, get a real job for real money and see how you feel when those real taxes kick in while you're busting your ass making a living. Then go look at the useless turds gaming the system because they're to lazy to work and see if you still feel the same way.
You can sit there at Mummy & Daddies on their computer, powered off their electricity, on their internet connection, wearing the clothes they bought you, with a happy stomach from the food they bought, all warm and snuggly under their roof this winter all you want. You'll have to get into the real world and actually do for yourself with no one to wipe your ass before you can even think about trying to pontificate to me.

[matshock]

The rioting in France is due to raising the pension age. The rioting in Spain is due to its enormous debt due to bloated public services.

It's interesting you picked that UKIP arsehole Nigel Farage as the voice of Britain. He's a powerless MEP. He won't have much more to say when the EU shuts up shop. Good riddance to him and the undemocratic EU.

We listen to good speeches, regardless of the station of the speaker- it's an American thing you apparently don't understand.

And while we're at it:

[movie=youtube;MmudJafnQh0]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MmudJafnQh0[/video]

The guy at 0:34 is wearing a hajib by the way- you'll be seeing him a lot more I have no doubt.

[matshock]

ahem, no edits allowed right now:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MmudJafnQh0

[Tx Dogblaster]

Syph, Please live your entire utopian life in the UK or anywhere else. Don't ever come to our country. We have enough liberal socialistic douchebags of our own without worrying about importing another one... I'm just saying...

I know you probably mean well but the vast amount of knowledge & wisdom that you think you have after just 17 years of life on momma's tit isn't worth a damn thing.

[Syph]

Sorry but being lectured by a 17 year old is comical at best and mildly annoying at least. Rather then tell me what you will do came back and tell me and everyone else what you have done.

The old adage comes to mind, "If your not a liberal when you're young you have no heart, if your not a conservative when you are old you have no brain". Let's hope you find your brain sooner than later.

The latter statement has been scientifically disproved. Liberals and atheists are smarter than conservatives.

http://www.time.com/time/health/article/0,8599,1968042,00.html

[Tx Dogblaster]

The latter statement has been scientifically disproved. Liberals and atheists are smarter than conservatives.

Only in their feeble minds. Utopia doesn't exist and it never will. Especially not through redistribution.

Maybe we need a membership application process and background check for new members... Nah, that would take all fun out of it...

[Syph]

Grow up, get a real job for real money and see how you feel when those real taxes kick in while you're busting your ass making a living. Then go look at the useless turds gaming the system because they're to lazy to work and see if you still feel the same way.
You can sit there at Mummy & Daddies on their computer, powered off their electricity, on their internet connection, wearing the clothes they bought you, with a happy stomach from the food they bought, all warm and snuggly under their roof this winter all you want. You'll have to get into the real world and actually do for yourself with no one to wipe your ass before you can even think about trying to pontificate to me.

Mummy and Daddy don't mind paying taxes because it provides a safety net for everyone should we fall ill. It also funds the future of the country.

My mother also has disagreeable views on benefit cheats saying that they're often put in that position by gang culture, parental neglect and bullying.


The guy at 0:34 is wearing a hajib by the way- you'll be seeing him a lot more I have no doubt.

You bring up a video about a pro-public service demonstration in the UK and cite the guy with a bandanna over his face. Get real Islamophobe. I'll give you $1,000 dollar if we have Sharia law in the next 10 years.


Syph, Please live your entire utopian life in the UK or anywhere else. Don't ever come to our country. We have enough liberal socialistic douchebags of our own without worrying about importing another one... I'm just saying...

Utopian? God, with all those guns it's amazing how you can all keep your heads. You'd think the apocalypse was here or something...


I know you probably mean well but the vast amount of knowledge & wisdom that you think you have after just 17 years of life on momma's tit isn't worth a damn thing.

13 years in academia stands for nothing then... I can see why you are reluctant to fund the education of any child with your worldview.

[Syph]

Only in their feeble minds. Utopia doesn't exist and it never will. Especially not through redistribution.

What I want is a healthcare safety net and state funded education. You'd think I was advocating communism...

Your complacency has cost a generation trillions of dollars in debt so don't talk about feeble minds when you elected GW Bush.

[Krupski]

Some people are born severely disabled and some people are born without the mental faculties to be educated beyond 16.

Humans are the only animal that go out of their way to disrupt natural selection... and the overall quality of humanity is showing the results...

[Dr. Gonzo GED]

Looks like you've lost the arguement since you decided to take the low road but that's you're choice and in your case probably a good one. Enjoy your day.
And what argument was that Dick? That I'm an uneducated pre pubecent child on welfare, and voting to further leach your precious bodily fluids through Marxist fundamentalism because I live in California? Pull the other one Dick, it's got bells on it!

Don't hurt yourself falling off of that high horse while you try to pat yourself on the back. Asshole.

[matshock]

You're screwed in the head kid- I'll say a prayer for you.

[Syph]

Humans are the only animal that go out of their way to disrupt natural selection... and the overall quality of humanity is showing the results...

Advocating eugenics is a dangerous road. You are correct but natural selection still occurs:

Pretty woman + smart rich man = attractive, smart children (although theoretically only half as smart or attractive).

[Syph]

You're screwed in the head kid- I'll say a prayer for you.

How long before Godwin's law I wonder... Playing the mental illness/religion card is pretty low.

[Krupski]

Advocating eugenics is a dangerous road. You are correct but natural selection still occurs:


"Eugenics" is a program of active "selection" based upon human ideas as to what is "good" and what is not.

That's not what I meant.

I mean humans "prop up" genetically and physically defective people, rather than letting them die as any other defective animal would. In addition, we tamper with natural selection by doing things such as hunting.

In the wild, WEAK deer will die. Toss hunters into the mix and ANY RANDOM deer will die.

Oh well, you can't fool Mother Nature. If humans screw up badly enough, they will simply be selected for extinction. Nature will always win.

[mriddick]

How about back to the original question...Welfare states as most would define just don't work well, that is what's wrong with them.

[Infidelski]

Syph, Please live your entire utopian life in the UK or anywhere else. Don't ever come to our country. We have enough liberal socialistic douchebags of our own without worrying about importing another one... I'm just saying...

I know you probably mean well but the vast amount of knowledge & wisdom that you think you have after just 17 years of life on momma's tit isn't worth a damn thing.

What TX said !!!

[Tx Dogblaster]

Mummy and Daddy don't mind paying taxes because it provides a safety net for everyone should we fall ill. It also funds the future of the country.

My mother also has disagreeable views on benefit cheats saying that they're often put in that position by gang culture, parental neglect and bullying.

So apparently their brain dead too then...



Utopian? God, with all those guns it's amazing how you can all keep your heads. You'd think the apocalypse was here or something...

Guns got us out from under the king of England and they'll keep us from ever being "subjects" again. Just what brought you're little milk breathed ass to a gun forum then?


13 years in academia stands for nothing then... I can see why you are reluctant to fund the education of any child with your worldview.

As far as REAL world experience goes, you're correct. 13 years of academia means NOTHING. At 17, you only THINK you know a lot when in actuality you don't know shit...


What I want is a healthcare safety net and state funded education. You'd think I was advocating communism...

Not communism but socialism. We don't need it nor do we want it in this country. We're not supposed to have a "ruling class". We're supposed to be a representative republic and the asshats in DC think that they are the rulers. Just look at how well that worked out for them a few weeks ago...


Your complacency has cost a generation trillions of dollars in debt so don't talk about feeble minds when you elected GW Bush.

At least we ELECTED somebody that didn't take shit off of every third world POS in the world and he sure as hell didn't go around the world bowing to leaders and apologizing for our country. He didn't give your precious worthless queen an iPod with speeches on it or DVD's formatted for the wrong country. At least we were smart enough 234 years ago to lose the king & queen shit so that Americans can be citizens and not subjects.

[Dr. Gonzo GED]

Advocating eugenics is a dangerous road. You are correct but natural selection still occurs:

Pretty woman + smart rich man = attractive, smart children (although theoretically only half as smart or attractive).
Krupski is a nazi BTW, so him advocating eugenics is only a surprise to those of us who don't know him.

As for your grade school genetics theory, there is a flip side. They could wind up with the dads bad looks and the moms shite brains. Einstien understood this, you obviously are not Einstien. In fact your argument that the child would only have half of what the parents had doesn;t make any sense, even from a purely evolutionary standpoint. What you describe would have the entire gene pool degrade to uselessness within a couple generations. Each successive generation being only half as strong or intelligent as the one before. Said scenario is obviously not reality. However, such a thing might explain your "peculiarities" as it were. Which are somewhat disturbing in and of themself since your going into the medical profession and obviously need to be firing on all cylinders to perform competantly. Thoug I have a feeling we've gone over that before, you and I.

[alismith]

Given the high degree of illiterates graduating from public school would you say they're being educated to the highest level? Attending college should be about desire and ability not funding which is why we have both scholarships and people partying for 4+ years cause mom and dad are paying for it. Neither works like it should. If we were a country of nothing but people with BA or BS after our name we'd still need blue color labor so what's the higher education gotten you.

The fact is the majority of people that expect or demand that "the state" pay for something figure it'll be to their benefit and or they won't really be the ones paying for it.

I'm not disagreeing with what you're saying here, but I know, first hand, that the majority of the "illiterates" graduating are illiterate because they choose to be. Everyone has the same educational opportunities K-12, so discrimination can't be used as an argument. Most of the illiterates are the same ones who refuse to do homework, don't take their education seriously, and are just oxygen thieves who are in school because it's the law and they get free meals and their mommas don't have to worry about paying for a babysitter. School is just a place for them to be until they graduate.

Part of this "illiteracy" problem is the school system, too. Rather than expel a chronically disruptive student, they cater to his/her whims. They are content to babysit them until they can graduate with their classmates. Many school systems don't retain students who don't have the skill levels mastered for the next grade level. It's easier to pass them with a "C" or "D" than it is to invoke the wrath of parents who feel their kid is god's gift to the world.

If the public schools tightened their standards, both for teachers and students, and not back down when a parent threatens a law suit, the students would realize that they either perform, or they will be hitting the job market sooner than they expected.

And, with this new government program, "Race to the Top," students have no accountability at all. As a result, they are not penalized for doing nothing. And they know it. If they don't perform, it's not a problem for them. This program removes any, and all, responsibility from their shoulders.

[63DH8]

I'm 17 and going to medical school. I'll pay far more tax then average to help out my fellow "comrade"! (Sorry, couldn't help myself.)

And you enjoy the idea of paying "far more than average" in taxes, or would you rather have that money in your pocket?

[Tx Dogblaster]

And you enjoy the idea of paying "far more than average" in taxes, or would you rather have that money in your pocket?

He would rather pay more to support the worthless so him and the rest of the bleeding hearts can continue living on the government tit because they don't have any money of their own anymore.

[Syph]

In fact your argument that the child would only have half of what the parents had doesn;t make any sense, even from a purely evolutionary standpoint.

I didn't want to discuss advanced level biology on a firearms forum and I am painfully aware that I excluded phenomena such as crossing over, non-disjunction . The truth is that it is entirely random as there are 2^23 combinations that can be formed as a result of meiosis alone. Taking crossing over into account would double or triple that value.


Which are somewhat disturbing in and of themself since your going into the medical profession and obviously need to be firing on all cylinders to perform competantly. Thoug I have a feeling we've gone over that before, you and I.

I am firing on all cylinders, I simply omitted truth because I didn't want to bring academia into this thread since in earlier posts academics were cited as "worthless". (...although, I did make that critical error, so this is really just to cover my tracks...)

[Syph]

He would rather pay more to support the worthless so him and the rest of the bleeding hearts can continue living on the government tit because they don't have any money of their own anymore.

No, Tx. I want a safety net for people who fall ill. I also think that government should invest in the future education of its citizens. Notice, that I don't mention "unemployed". What I propose is a back to basics and rigid welfare state.

[El Jefe]

No, Tx. I want a safety net for people who fall ill. I also think that government should invest in the future education of its citizens. Notice, that I don't mention "unemployed". What I propose is a back to basics and rigid welfare state.

If that's what you want for England, fine. But here in the States I want nothing to do with your Stalinist state.

But what I think is at the root of this, is that you need to fucking grow up. I don't mean get older, I mean you need to mature and stand on your own two feet, kid.

[Syph]

If that's what you want for England, fine. But here in the States I want nothing to do with your Stalinist state.

Stalin? You seriously need an education on stalinism and are doing the most basic forms of socialism injustice. I'm not proposing your idea in the states, I'm proposing it in a more general way.


But what I think is at the root of this, is that you need to fucking grow up. I don't mean get older, I mean you need to mature and stand on your own two feet, kid.

The welfare state has been a roaring success in the UK but it is overweight and the Conservative government are giving it a diet. I don't understand why you are so opposed. An average Joe earning £21,000 spends less in taxes than you do on medical insurance. How are you less well off without welfare? You aren't... only the rich are...

[Nimbly]

Free health care is a grand idea. Problem is, the folks in the UK are taxed at a rate of 50%. With how little I make, if you were to take half of my pay checks I would starve. Health care is great, but food is better. Besides, this is what liberals want, they want to take your guns and make you ever more dependant on the government for your livelihood, so you will sign over your check and let big brother take care of you. They figure you are to stupid to take care of yourself. The United States was founded on the principal of minimum government involvement, and the ability to decide your path for yourself. The government also seems to think that if you are taking their help, they have the right to tell you what you can do with it. All of these welfare programs are a violation of the founding principals that made this country what it is. "...I'll keep my guns and my money, you keep the change..."

[Joey]

Problem is, the folks in the UK are taxed at a rate of 50%.

Only the rich. The basic rate is 20%.

[Syph]

Free health care is a grand idea. Problem is, the folks in the UK are taxed at a rate of 50%. With how little I make, if you were to take half of my pay checks I would starve. Health care is great, but food is better. Besides, this is what liberals want, they want to take your guns and make you ever more dependant on the government for your livelihood, so you will sign over your check and let big brother take care of you. They figure you are to stupid to take care of yourself. The United States was founded on the principal of minimum government involvement, and the ability to decide your path for yourself. The government also seems to think that if you are taking their help, they have the right to tell you what you can do with it. All of these welfare programs are a violation of the founding principals that made this country what it is. "...I'll keep my guns and my money, you keep the change..."

This is incorrect. With income tax, you are taxed at the basic rate of 20% under £37,600 (~$60,000) with an allowance of £10,000 (when the Lib Dems pass the legislation) so you only pay 20% on £27,600 (~$45,000). Over that you are taxed 40% and over £150,000 (~$230,000) you are taxed 50%.

Seems pretty fair to me. You can afford food, mortgage and healthcare...

[circuits]

Seems pretty fair to me. You can afford food, mortgage and healthcare...

How is it ever "fair" to take something from someone and give it to someone else?

Necessary in moderation, but never, in my estimation, fair.

[Tx Dogblaster]

This is incorrect. With income tax, you are taxed at the basic rate of 20% under £37,600 (~$60,000) with an allowance of £10,000 (when the Lib Dems pass the legislation) so you only pay 20% on £27,600 (~$45,000). Over that you are taxed 40% and over £150,000 (~$230,000) you are taxed 50%.

Seems pretty fair to me. You can afford food, mortgage and healthcare...

Giving away 40-50% of what you work for seems pretty fair to you? Are you shitting me? Your mind must just be totally trashed from being brought up in that system because no NORMAL person would be OK with that. What I work my ass off for should be mine to do with as I see best NOT for a nanny state to take from me to decide what's best. If I want to donate to charity (which I do on a very regular basis) or keep it all to myself, it's nobody's business but mine. I have a wife and 5 kids to raise so I don't need the gov't "helping" me. There's too much evidence of how well the gov't handles business. No thanks! I'll handle my own...

[Nimbly]

Everyone is entitled to their opinion and I am glad you are allowed to express it, but I disagree. The reason I vote for Ron Paul is because a direct un-apportioned tax on wages is not fair (or constitutionally legal in the U.S.) but that is a story for another post. Your taxes are twice what they are here. They asked Obama, if he would take his children to a socialist medical doctor and he said ‘no‘. If it isn’t good enough for him, it isn’t good enough for America. I don't want the crappy government health care, and I don't want to pay for everyone else to have it. Last thing we need is to have to pay for a bunch of junkies to get their prescription pain killers. I just think the very last thing the U.S. needs is to follow in the footsteps of the British crown. A government that would ban Michael Savage, give free medical care worthless junkies, ‘chavs’ I think you call them, and ban firearms outright is a country to pity, not a country to emulate.

[Blacksmith]

Free Healthcare (Universal, Tax funded)

If you give the government control over your medical, you give them control over every aspect of your life.
To put that into perspective, If I was responsible for your medical bills, I would not allow you to smoke. drink alcohol. eat fatty foods. Etc. I would put my entire herd on a strict diet and simply put down those that are too expensive to cure. I would also force the entire heard to pay me and my staff a very good wage for my service. So much that I could purchase a massive estate. I was thinking of a nice balcony where I could drink beer and throw the empty cans down on the herd, but that might be too much. wouldn’t want a bunch of sheep getting all uppity.

[Dr. Gonzo GED]

I am firing on all cylinders, I simply omitted truth because I didn't want to bring academia into this thread since in earlier posts academics were cited as "worthless". (...although, I did make that critical error, so this is really just to cover my tracks...)
The true critical error you made was assuming that everyone on this board is a stereotype, and as closed minded as the ones who think education is useless.

Some of our members are even full blown doctors. As in, they have achieved in their lives, what you are studying to hopefully achieve in yours. Hence, they are far and above what you think you are having a conversation with right now.

Free your mind and your ass will follow Syph.

[HDR]

Syph,
What is so good about a socialist state that we should embrace it?

You really haven't put anything on the table to sell socialism. All we see is higher taxes with less opportunities....

Selling something is quite easy if it has value added.

[HDR]

An average Joe earning £21,000 spends less in taxes than you do on medical insurance. How are you less well off without welfare? You aren't... only the rich are...

I pay nothing except a deductible. So how much does your average joe pay?

How long does it take to get to see a doctor, dentist, specialist, or get surgery or a MRI?

[Lysander]

Since Socialism and British Healthcare are so wonderful, why don't we see hordes of Americans going to England for their Healthcare?Actually, the humorous part is that the opposite is actually true. Not just for England, but every other country with socialized healthcare; those who can afford better go elsewhere.

[Charliebravo]

Giving away 40-50% of what you work for seems pretty fair to you?I'll go ahead and answer on his behalf since Syph and I are already well acquainted on PWW. Yes, he thinks it's fair. Most Eurolefties have no problem with making someone a slave to the State for 4 to 6 months out of the year. On a lighted note, he did call the Eurolefty horde in as backup on PWW. If I recall correctly, the post went something to the effect of "help me out in my welfare state thread on Gunsnet. I'm getting gang-raped over there."

[PROBASCO]

You know, in most first world nations it is.

But you're right in a way. In the US it is not a "right", it is a "business". And we all know how you hard core conservatives feel about messing with business.

Frankly though, IMHO, it is a gross mistake to not educate every one of our citizens to the highest level they are capapble of achieving. The system we have now breeds the social climate we have now. And we all know how you hard core conservatives feel about our social climate...

yep its the f*cking unions "business", that takes all the money for education and the students get nothing. F*ck the unions. they are the reason we dont produce anything and our government services are shit. Oh by the way, have you seen what all the freebees have been doing to "other nations" where freebees are "rights"? They are borrowing money from the USA, that we have to borrow from china, so we can support their socialism. Socialism fails everytime, read your history books! Only lazy useless people want it on the backs of others and thats why we have the current social climate. The Do nothing "gimme" crowd cant stand on their own two feet and want those who can, to support their sorry pathetic useless existence.

dont blame "business" when its private individuals that are too f*cking greedy to work for an honest wage (gm workers getting $60+perks hour, which resulted in the gm failure).

And who the hell is telling us how to do things that uses a foreign currency in starting this post? Are we being "organized"?

social climate we have? how about the friggin borders causing a social climate? How about 1.2 million new government employees just this year draining the system not just now with twice the salary of the private sector, but for future generations with their perks and outrageous pensions?

for those of you who want to get ahead, TRY WORKING HARDER.

[Tx Dogblaster]

...If I recall correctly, the post went something to the effect of "help me out in my welfare state thread on Gunsnet. I'm getting gang-raped over there."

That's funny shite right there!!!:lol:

[PROBASCO]

YOUR A SOCIALIST, PLAIN AND SIMPLE. No amount of college will ever help you with that. It is a disease much like cancer of the brain. it spreads to other lower functioning organs, in this case, liberals. I will never understand why you beleive you DESERVE the money I sweated for. In this country we call that theft, but the lower functioning socialist organs are parasites that need eradication.



I know this is a controversial stance to take on this forum, but I think that a welfare state is incredibly beneficial to all those who use it.

Basically, my idea of a welfare state is:


Free Healthcare (Universal, Tax funded)
Free Education (To the age of 16)
Full College Grants (For the brightest 50%)
Full University Grants (For the brightest 30%)
State Housing AKA Council Housing (For those on total incomes at or below £20000)
Disability Benefit (£500 per month to £20,000 per annum)
Unemployment Allowance (2 months maximum)


Welfare is a system designed to help the most vulnerable in society who's position is no fault of their own. The abuse that the Labour government allowed in the UK is not what I am proposing. I am proposing a safety net in our countries that have people living off the state. Nets can break under strain and as they say, hunger is a great motivator.

I'm interested to see your responses. If you don't agree with a certain part, then challenge me. I hope that some of you avoid the whole healthcare thing for the moment and focus on welfare states themselves.

[Nimbly]

YOUR A SOCIALIST, PLAIN AND SIMPLE. No amount of college will ever help you with that. It is a disease much like cancer of the brain. it spreads to other lower functioning organs, in this case, liberals. I will never understand why you beleive you DESERVE the money I sweated for. In this country we call that theft, but the lower functioning socialist organs are parasites that need eradication.

And unfortunately there is no cure. Its sad, people who can justify socialism (Joseph Stalin, Ho Chi Minh, Ernesto Che Guevara, Mao Se Tung) usually have no problem justifying genocide.
Government should be only big enough to accomplish the responsibilities set to it by the United States Constitution. Not an ounce bigger. Forcing crap health care on people that don’t want it, then overtaxing them to pay for it is not in any damn way fair. The United States exists because we believe English over taxation was un-fair enough to fight against it. For the life of me, I don’t see why liberals cant get this through the big Obama loving, stupid heads!

[63DH8]

Nothing the Government gives is free. Free healthcare isn't free. It's paid for with taxes. Essentially, you are paying for someone else's healthcare. Is it fair that you pay for my healthcare? I don't think so! The only thing this taxation is is redistribution of wealth.

The problem with so-called "safety nets" is not so much that the needy will use it, but those who don't need it will abuse it. My mom teaches sewing at the low income housing. She knows people who work harder finding ways around getting a job than they would at a job. Every time I had to take my daughter to the emergency room, there are people bringing their kids in for a sniffle or runny nose. Why didn't they take them to the community clinic or do what they already know the doctor will tell them? Provide a safety net, and people will take advantage and abuse the system.

[matshock]

And unfortunately there is no cure. Its sad, people who can justify socialism (Joseph Stalin, Ho Chi Minh, Ernesto Che Guevara, Mao Se Tung) usually have no problem justifying genocide.
Government should be only big enough to accomplish the responsibilities set to it by the United States Constitution. Not an ounce bigger. Forcing crap health care on people that don’t want it, then overtaxing them to pay for it is not in any damn way fair. The United States exists because we believe English over taxation was un-fair enough to fight against it. For the life of me, I don’t see why liberals cant get this through the big Obama loving, stupid heads!

Yep, I gave up on reason right here:


You bring up a video about a pro-public service demonstration in the UK and cite the guy with a bandanna over his face. Get real Islamophobe.

When someone is AOK with partisan political violence they're thoroughly indoctrinated. Such people can only be bribed into betraying their own or isolated from the agency of that indoctrination and eventually turned.

[Joey]

How is it ever "fair" to take something from someone and give it to someone else?


Most Eurolefties have no problem with making someone a slave to the State for 4 to 6 months out of the year.

When the electorate vote for it in a free and fair election. What's wrong with that? You're both democrats aren't you?

Trouble is, you poor Yanks don't have free and fair elections. You've got no legislation banning big money paying for political TV advertising.

So your wretched politicians spend half their time, when they should be serving their constituents, raising money from corporations to fund TV adverts.

In much of Europe that's illegal. British electoral law says it's wrong for elections to be bought. Every political party, above a certain size, has guaranteed TV air time. All other political TV advertising is banned.

British TV broadcasting law would also make a British Fox News unlawful. British TV journalists must be balanced - present both sides of an argument - or they're taken off air and their employer fined.

But you poor guys have the drip drip drip of corporate propaganda cascading down on your nut brown heads. My heart goes out to you. You know no other system.

Perhaps one day you'll dig your heals in, say no to the corporate paymasters and their tame politicians and build a functional democracy. It's sad to see America, the former leader of the free world, in such trouble. Get your house in order.

[Nimbly]

When the electorate vote for it in a free and fair election. What's wrong with that? You're both democrats aren't you?

Trouble is, you poor Yanks don't have free and fair elections. You've got no legislation banning big money paying for political TV advertising.

So your wretched politicians spend half their time, when they should be serving their constituents, raising money from corporations to fund TV adverts.

In much of Europe that's illegal. British electoral law says it's wrong for elections to be bought. Every political party, above a certain size, has guaranteed TV air time. All other political TV advertising is banned.

British TV broadcasting law would also make a British Fox News unlawful. British TV journalists must be balanced - present both sides of an argument - or they're taken off air and their employer fined.

But you poor guys have the drip drip drip of corporate propaganda cascading down on your nut brown heads. My heart goes out to you. You know no other system.

Perhaps one day you'll dig your heals in, say no to the corporate paymasters and their tame politicians and build a functional democracy. It's sad to see America, the former leader of the free world, in such trouble. Get your house in order.

And one day the queen might wake up and say “Screw y'all, I am going to kill all the queers, blacks and Jews.” Then when the Bobbies come to round them up, the blacks and Jews wont be able to shoot back because your ever so enlightened system took all the guns away. Its okay though, you will still have your crappy medical care, and your council houses, and your paycheck for 600 pounds even though your employer paid you 1100. You won’t see me with a English Citizenship Application in the near future. Shame, I understand it is a really wonderful country otherwise.

[Joey]

And one day the queen might wake up and say “Screw y'all, I am going to kill all the queers, blacks and Jews.” Then when the Bobbies come to round them up, the blacks and Jews wont be able to shoot back because your ever so enlightened system took all the guns away. Its okay though, you will still have your crappy medical care, and your council houses, and your paycheck for 600 pounds even though your employer paid you 1100. You won’t see me with a English Citizenship Application in the near future. Shame, I understand it is a really wonderful country otherwise.

Dear old Nimbly, it's not my fault you've an electoral system in the States designed to enable wealthy US citizens to buy and sell you at the ballot box, like a medieval surf.

Face it, your democracy's far inferior to the standard European model, in which it's unlawful for the rich to buy TV airtime to twist the result.

I can see this may be a bitter pill to swallow - the fact that the alleged leader of the free world has an inferior democracy to, say, Belgium. Or Switzerland. LOL

But suck it up. Do something about it. Where's your famous Yankee get-up-and-go?

It's no surprise there's such hatred of the state in the US - Timothy McVeigh Complex - and libertarianism (right-wing anarchism) is a favoured minority political viewpoint. Your politicians and business leaders have you trussed up like chickens.

[El Jefe]

Dear old Nimbly, it's not my fault you've an electoral system in the States designed to enable wealthy US citizens to buy and sell you at the ballot box, like a medieval surf.

Face it, your democracy's far inferior to the standard European model, in which it's unlawful for the rich to buy TV airtime to twist the result.

I can see this may be a bitter pill to swallow - the fact that the alleged leader of the free world has an inferior democracy to, say, Belgium. Or Switzerland. LOL

But suck it up. Do something about it. Where's your famous Yankee get-up-and-go?

It's no surprise there's such hatred of the state in the US - Timothy McVeigh Complex - and libertarianism (right-wing anarchism) is a favoured minority political viewpoint. Your politicians and business leaders have you trussed up like chickens.

Why are you so obsessed with the US? Penis envy?

Oh and Syph, you're a fucking pussy for calling in backup from the commie board. What, you can't fight you're own battles, momma's boy?

[Joey]

Why are you so obsessed with the US? Penis envy?

Why are you such an argument-free nincompoop? Dropped on the head as a nipper?

There are some thoughtful, non-"fag" obsessed, non-potty-mouthed, people here who, unlike you, are capable of stringing an argument together and enjoy exposure to ideas and cultures which are different from their own. Some of them don't even issue death threats.

Give it go. You might enjoy it. It's an entirely innocent activity to chat on the internet.

[El Jefe]

Why are you such an argument-free nincompoop? Dropped on the head as a nipper?

There are some thoughtful, non-"fag" obsessed, non-potty-mouthed, people here who, unlike you, are capable of stringing an argument together and enjoy exposure to ideas and cultures which are different from their own. Some of them don't even issue death threats.

Give it go. You might enjoy it. It's an entirely innocent activity to chat on the internet.

Gee, didn't realize I had threatened to kill you, can you quote that for me?

I'm convinced that socialism is a cruel joke, why would I want to argue that point with you of all people, on a gun board? It's destroying Europe, but you're too thick to see it. But you go right on supporting it, I'm sure by the time you're ready to suckle at the government teat, that Achmed, won't mind supporting you.

[Joey]

... why would I want to argue that point with you of all people, on a gun board?

I know why you wouldn't. Because I'd hand you your spotty, fearful, troll-obsessed, Muslim-hating, small-minded, girly arse.*




* You ass

[Blacksmith]

And one day the queen might wake up and say “Screw y'all, I am going to kill all the queers, blacks and Jews.”

She would have to have a fixed election first. The herd will believe anything she says. It is the moral issue that will have to be voted on. After that the herd will be justified in killing their brothers and sisters.

Joey
Am I saying that right? You sheep are a “herd” animal are you not? or is the proper term “flock”?

[El Jefe]

I know why you wouldn't. Because I'd hand you your spotty, fearful, troll-obsessed, Muslim-hating, small-minded, girly arse.*




* You ass

You didn't provide the quote I requested. I guess you're just another Euro-weenie, all mouth, no spine.

[Joey]

Am I saying that right? You sheep are a “herd” animal are you not? or is the proper term “flock”?

Britain is actually quite heavily armed, particularly the countryside, with tens of thousands of legally held shotguns and rifles. It's a brave man who robs an isolated farm at 4am.

But gun ownership's controlled, supported by opinion poll after opinion poll, partly because people are aware of the terrible US gun murder rate and don't want the disease spreading across the Atlantic.

So who are the sheep here? The poor old Yanks who:

(a) fail to control their senior business people, allowing them to subvert US democracy in a manner outlawed in Europe decades ago

(b) fail to control gun ownership, leading to a slaughter of innocents

So you're an un-democratic, murderous flock, branded on the rump by your business class. I feel genuinely sorry for America, a great nation brought low by your politicians and CEOs.


You didn't provide the quote I requested.

Why should I answer your idiot questions?

[Blacksmith]

But gun ownership's controlled, supported by opinion poll after opinion poll, partly because people are aware of the terrible US gun murder rate and don't want the disease spreading across the Atlantic.

So who are the sheep here? The poor old Yanks who:

(a) fail to control their senior business people, allowing them to subvert US democracy in a manner outlawed in Europe decades ago

(b) fail to control gun ownership, leading to a slaughter of innocents

So you're an un-democratic, murderous flock, branded on the rump by your business class. I feel genuinely sorry for America, a great nation brought low by your politicians and CEOs.




That’s a very narrow minded observation.
Here in AZ We have damn near completely restored our god given right to bear arms. no registration. no permits required etc etc etc. we do not have nearly the problems you have. Soon we will regain our sovereignty. as allowed by our constitution. And one day soon, we will be able to walk into a store and walk out with a machine gun or any other weapons we desire. We will be able to do this without any registration and without any interference whatsoever from the government. After all, it is a god given right and it is confirmed in our bill of rights. I bet that just scares the hell out of you. LOL. You have become dependent on your keepers and you truly believe the fears they place in you are real.

An armed society is a very polite society.

[Syph]

If I recall correctly, the post went something to the effect of "help me out in my welfare state thread on Gunsnet. I'm getting gang-raped over there."


Oh and Syph, you're a fucking pussy for calling in backup from the commie board. What, you can't fight you're own battles, momma's boy?

What? I am... I'm 17 and the others are far older with far more "practical experience".
And as for you Jefferson, you bring Benjamin Franklin, Thomas Jefferson and George Washington into battle with you. I bring in "experts on politics" that haven't been dead for over 200 years.


I will never understand why you beleive you DESERVE the money I sweated for. In this country we call that theft, but the lower functioning socialist organs are parasites that need eradication.

Unless you are really rich, I'll contribute more taxes than I use and you will contribute a more similar amount in taxes. People in lower socio-economic situations tend to be in advanced stages with heart disease and early cancer by the age of 50.


And unfortunately there is no cure. Its sad, people who can justify socialism (Joseph Stalin, Ho Chi Minh, Ernesto Che Guevara, Mao Se Tung) usually have no problem justifying genocide.

If you hadn't pumped the Viet Minh full of guns in the fifties, none of the more recent genocides would have happened.

Okay, how about Clement Atlee, Harold Macmillan? Why do these titans of moderate socialism get mentioned? They not acceptable in your genocidal socialist zeitgeist...


For the life of me, I don’t see why liberals cant get this through the big Obama loving, stupid heads!

Obama is nothing more than a run of the mill one term president...

[Joey]

You have become dependent on your keepers and you truly believe the fears they place in you are real.

No, we just look at your abysmal gun murder rate. And what's narrow minded about a nation deciding, freely and fairly, not to share your popgun obsession?

Okay, given your corrupt electoral system, with corporations permitted to flood your airwaves with political propaganda, I appreciate you don't have direct experience of living in a functional democracy. My heart goes out to you.

But you can use your imagination, no?

[Syph]

After all, it is a god given right and it is confirmed in our bill of rights. I bet that just scares the hell out of you. LOL. You have become dependent on your keepers and you truly believe the fears they place in you are real.

An armed society is a very polite society.

God given right... I never believed all this "rights" BS that sprung up after the Revolutions of the 1700's... We should follow the "Harm to other's" principle as a guide to society. Not some traditionalist pseudo-religious justification for liberty. Damn conservatives and their well of pessimism.

[Solidus-snake]

God given right... I never believed all this "rights" BS that sprung up after the Revolutions of the 1700's... We should follow the "Harm to other's" principle as a guide to society. Not some traditionalist pseudo-religious justification for liberty. Damn conservatives and their well of pessimism.

Oh yeah thats right, you lot dont believe in "rights", just what your leaders tell you your allowed to do.

I will give you this however, the U.S is heading that way in a hurry.

[circuits]

When the electorate vote for it in a free and fair election. What's wrong with that? You're both democrats aren't you?

Not just no, but HELL NO. I'm not a Democrat. Not even a little bit, little 'd' democrat. And Democrats, as a party, don't believe in actual democracy. A majority vote's only good to them if they like the outcome.

[El Jefe]

God given right... I never believed all this "rights" BS that sprung up after the Revolutions of the 1700's... We should follow the "Harm to other's" principle as a guide to society. Not some traditionalist pseudo-religious justification for liberty. Damn conservatives and their well of pessimism.

So says the sheep. :sheeple:

[Blacksmith]

No, we just look at your abysmal gun murder rate. And what's narrow minded about a nation deciding, freely and fairly, not to share your popgun obsession?

Okay, given your corrupt electoral system, with corporations permitted to flood your airwaves with political propaganda, I appreciate you don't have direct experience of living in a functional democracy. My heart goes out to you.

But you can use your imagination, no?
LMAO
So your gun control works?
I got news for you Joey
A nut job can do more damage and kill more people with a box of rat poison than he can with a gun.
If you want to stop a criminal, you go after the criminal. If you go after the tool that he used, you only deprive the law abiding citizens of that tool.
BTW
A rock in a sock can cause one hell of allot of damage as well. You sheep should get right on the legislation to outlaw that. LOL

[Joey]

Not just no, but HELL NO. I'm not a Democrat. Not even a little bit, little 'd' democrat. And Democrats, as a party, don't believe in actual democracy. A majority vote's only good to them if they like the outcome.

I'm interested sir. Are you a Stalinist, a Fascist, or a weird and wonderful anarchist who believes leaders (if any) should be picked via a cage fight?

[Blacksmith]

God given right... I never believed all this "rights" BS that sprung up after the Revolutions of the 1700's... We should follow the "Harm to other's" principle as a guide to society. Not some traditionalist pseudo-religious justification for liberty. Damn conservatives and their well of pessimism.

We learned by our own as well as others mistakes. You fools are just blind followers.

[Joey]

LMAO
So your gun control works?
I got news for you Joey
A nut job can do more damage and kill more people with a box of rat poison than he can with a gun.
If you want to stop a criminal, you go after the criminal. If you go after the tool that he used, you only deprive the law abiding citizens of that tool.
BTW
A rock in a sock can cause one hell of allot of damage as well. You sheep should get right on the legislation to outlaw that. LOL

That's all very well. I accept the tool ->> user of tool distinction. But that still leaves your gun murder rate. We don't want it, thanks kindly. Love the Yanks, hate their popguns (and their failing democracy) is a good slogan.

[matshock]

Seriously- they're agents of a monolithic and indoctrinated mob. Their way of life has already failed and they want to take us with them or at least demoralize us by displays of fanaticism & insults. Don't let their gibes amount to even a rise in blood pressure.

Let's disenfranchise their kind here, and fix our country so we can get ready to do battle with the foreign leftist mob at arms' length.

[jet3534]

No need to debate theory. History has demonstrated the failure of Marxism.

[Joey]

Seriously- they're agents of a monolithic and indoctrinated mob. Their way of life has already failed and they want to take us with them or at least demoralize us by displays of fanaticism & insults. Don't let their gibes amount to even a rise in blood pressure.

Let's disenfranchise their kind here, and fix our country so we can get ready to do battle with the foreign leftist mob at arms' length.

I was wondering when General Ripper would arrive.

http://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/dr._strangelove_jack_ripper.jpg
BODILY FLUIDS!

[Blacksmith]

That's all very well. I accept the tool ->> user of tool distinction. But that still leaves your gun murder rate. We don't want it, thanks kindly. Love the Yanks, hate their popguns (and their failing democracy) is a good slogan.

So your stabbings, beatings and gangs intimidating your unarmed citizens is acceptable?

Your statement just sounds nutty. no crimes are acceptable to me. and thanks for armed citizens, I can walk down my streets without fear.

Perhaps it will take another Holocaust to wake you up. but then again, some do not have the capacity to learn from history.
BTW
I hear the Muslims have quite a population over there. have you even read what their books teach? or are you one of those that refuse to acknowledge that they will eventually carry out what Islam teaches?

[Dr. Gonzo GED]

I know why you wouldn't. Because I'd hand you your spotty, fearful, troll-obsessed, Muslim-hating, small-minded, girly arse.*




* You ass
:lool: Way to take the high road there dumb ass!

[Dr. Gonzo GED]

And unfortunately there is no cure. Its sad, people who can justify socialism (Joseph Stalin, Ho Chi Minh, Ernesto Che Guevara, Mao Se Tung) usually have no problem justifying genocide.

We could just take a lay from their book and line them all against the wall...

[Joey]

I can walk down my streets without fear.


An armed society is a very polite society.

Spot the contradiction? Your people are polite because they're terrified of getting shot. You poor guys are pointing guns at each other and shaking in your boots. That generalised fear is blissfully absent in Britain. It's a blessed freedom.

Sure there's crime. But the UK murder rate, last time I checked, was five times lower than the US. Everyone in Britain knows that. So when a US popgun person suggests the importation into Britain of US gun laws, everyone laughs.

But if you want to live in fear, with a murder rate 500% higher than Britain, good luck to you sir.

[Blacksmith]

Spot the contradiction? Your people are polite because they're terrified of getting shot. You poor guys are pointing guns at each other and shaking in your boots. That generalised fear is blissfully absent in Britain. It's a blessed freedom.

Sure there's crime. But the UK murder rate, last time I checked, was five times lower than the US. Everyone in Britain knows that. So when a US popgun person suggests the importation into Britain of US gun laws, everyone laughs.

But if you want to live in fear, with a murder rate 500% higher than Britain, good luck to you sir.
An armed society is polite because the people that carry know the outcome of a conflict is somebody’s death. The security comes with the fact that all criminals are aware that everyone is carrying.
There is a lot of responsibility that comes with owning a firearm. Since they are not a part of your culture, I can see how you are confused.

BTW
I believe Your numbers are padded. that’s the problem with giving too much control to a governing entity. You only hear the propaganda.

[Joey]

:lool: Way to take the high road there dumb ass!

You're right. I should be kinder to poor Jefferson. He can't help it.

[Nimbly]

Spot the contradiction? Your people are polite because they're terrified of getting shot. You poor guys are pointing guns at each other and shaking in your boots. That generalised fear is blissfully absent in Britain. It's a blessed freedom.

Sure there's crime. But the UK murder rate, last time I checked, was five times lower than the US. Everyone in Britain knows that. So when a US popgun person suggests the importation into Britain of US gun laws, everyone laughs.

But if you want to live in fear, with a murder rate 500% higher than Britain, good luck to you sir.

A government that limits a persons right to campaign for election is better? Freedom or expression, pish not in Europe. As far as I know the general public doesn't live in fear. That is an ignorant generalization. Once again, I fail to see how a system that overburdens the poor to give services to worthless people is 'superior' to our American ideals. It is true that our system isn't perfect, it might not even be as good as your efficient little socialist parliament, but we knew that we didn't want your system 234 years ago. Your medical system is a failure. Your murder rate is low, but your other crime rates are far worse then the United States' http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/law-and-order/7922755/England-has-worse-crime-rate-than-the-US-says-Civitas-study.html. So, I can't really see where people in the US would be 'living in fear' any more then they would be in a country where there is a bigger likelihood of being raped. So, whatever you want to think dude. I am glad you are such a patriot and all, but I point out the flaws in our system, and as a patriot you should also. I am glad you think your system is the best, just like I am sure you think your soccer team is too.

[Dr. Gonzo GED]

You're right. I should be kinder to poor Jefferson. He can't help it.
He's acttualy a lot more intelligent and elloquent than you are when the mood takes him.

Something you might not know, is that Jeff and I are vitually oposite ends of the social and political specturm in this country. Jeff is an older guy, and pretty darn conservative. I'm a young man, and probably one of the more socially liberal members of this site. But Jeff and I never argue. You wanna know why? Cause he's damn polite, and has a brain on him. I'va also never once seen him resort to the petty ad-hominem attacks that you lot so readily fall back on when confronted with reality. Jeff and I get a along, because despite our differences, we have quite a bit in common.

See, that's the difference between you and I. I don't prejudge Jefferson because he might have different ideas. I like Jefferson because he's a fellow countryman. One of the few who really apreciates a place where we are entiltled, nay, empowered to be the people we are, regardless of our differences in opinion.

Fact is, the only thing any of us know about people we meet on the internet is that we don't know those people at all. So you can take your petty stereotypes, and hollier than thou arrogance, and shove them right up your sweet candy ass.

[El Jefe]

Oh, so now I'm an old guy, nice. :tongue0002::roflwithfeetcv2:

[Joey]

A government that limits a persons right to campaign for election is better?

I'd say yes. British electoral law places roughly the same financial limitations on all candidates come election time. Each party, over a certain size, is given the same free air time on national TV. The amount they can spend at local level - leaflets, posters etc - is also strictly limited.

If they break the limit and get elected they may be thrown from office and a re-ballot called. Private political TV advertising is banned completely and TV news must be politically balanced.

This means that Mr Corporate Money-Bags has some difficulty buying an election. It impacts on all politicians. It means they need spend less time raising cash between elections compared to US politicians so (a) spend more energy looking after their constituents and (b) are less in hock to big business. The politicians have more freedom from special interests and the electors know the list of candidates has not (usually) been bought.

The system's not perfect and British politicians aren't saints. Many are greedy, venal, selfish, hypocritical buggers like most politicians. But it puts them on something approaching a level playing field. They must fight on ideas, promises, character, and record, not money.

That's one area where I think British democracy is superior to US democracy. The reverse is true in other areas, e.g. your Constitution and Bill of Rights - far superior to the British model.

I believe, also, your electoral system goes deeper than ours, e.g. local sheriffs, DAs, and other public officials directly elected. Again, Britain is behind you on that. There's a big brouhaha atm about moving to elected police chiefs. Lots of powerful people are resisting it.

[Joey]

He's acttualy a lot more intelligent and elloquent than you are when the mood takes him.

Something you might not know, is that Jeff and I are vitually oposite ends of the social and political specturm in this country. Jeff is an older guy, and pretty darn conservative. I'm a young man, and probably one of the more socially liberal members of this site. But Jeff and I never argue. You wanna know why? Cause he's damn polite, and has a brain on him. I'va also never once seen him resort to the petty ad-hominem attacks that you lot so readily fall back on when confronted with reality. Jeff and I get a along, because despite our differences, we have quite a bit in common.

See, that's the difference between you and I. I don't prejudge Jefferson because he might have different ideas. I like Jefferson because he's a fellow countryman. One of the few who really apreciates a place where we are entiltled, nay, empowered to be the people we are, regardless of our differences in opinion.

Fact is, the only thing any of us know about people we meet on the internet is that we don't know those people at all. So you can take your petty stereotypes, and hollier than thou arrogance, and shove them right up your sweet candy ass.

Didn't Jefferson and I give as good as we got? He was rude to me, I was rude to him. It's no big deal is it?

Or is Jefferson a thin skinned fella? Has he an eggshell personality? Is he, at this moment, on the phone to you weeping womanly tears?

If so, I'm sorry. I've no wish to make Jefferson snivel. But it was tame stuff. Scroll up the thread. He said nothing beastly about my mother, I didn't offer to shoot his dog.

On the rudeness scale I'd score the exchange @ 4:10.

What's your beef Gonzo? You're usually fair-minded. Surely you don't expect Jefferson to be rude to me yet for me not to respond in kind? If so, no deal. I admire you for defending your friend but Jefferson must learn to stand on his own two feet.

But I promise not to shoot his dog.

[El Jefe]

Didn't Jefferson and I give as good as we got? He was rude to me, I was rude to him. It's no big deal is it?

Or is Jefferson a thin skinned fella? Has he an eggshell personality? Is he, at this moment, on the phone to you weeping womanly tears?

If so, I'm sorry. I've no wish to make Jefferson snivel. But it was tame stuff. Scroll up the thread. He said nothing beastly about my mother, I didn't offer to shoot his dog.

On the rudeness scale I'd score the exchange @ 4:10.

What's your beef Gonzo? You're usually fair-minded. Surely you don't expect Jefferson to be rude to me yet for me not to respond in kind? If so, no deal. I admire you for defending your friend but Jefferson must learn to stand on his own two feet.

But I promise not to shoot his dog.

Dude, don't spot your panty liner, just get a clue and fuck off, mkay. :)

[Joey]

Dude, don't spot your panty liner, just get a clue and fuck off, mkay. :)

LOL @ funny old Jeffrey.

[Dr. Gonzo GED]

Didn't Jefferson and I give as good as we got? He was rude to me, I was rude to him. It's no big deal is it?

Or is Jefferson a thin skinned fella? Has he an eggshell personality? Is he, at this moment, on the phone to you weeping womanly tears?

If so, I'm sorry. I've no wish to make Jefferson snivel. But it was tame stuff. Scroll up the thread. He said nothing beastly about my mother, I didn't offer to shoot his dog.

On the rudeness scale I'd score the exchange @ 4:10.

What's your beef Gonzo? You're usually fair-minded. Surely you don't expect Jefferson to be rude to me yet for me not to respond in kind? If so, no deal. I admire you for defending your friend but Jefferson must learn to stand on his own two feet.

But I promise not to shoot his dog.
You are a whiny troll bitch you know that?

Seriously, what's this "Someone was rude to me on the internet, is he your boyfriend, somebody call the whhhaaaaaammmmmbulance!" shit?

Why don't you refrain from posting untill the sand is cleaned from your vagina?

Your really only re-enforcing everybodies already poor opinion of you.

[Dr. Gonzo GED]

The reverse is true in other areas, e.g. your Constitution and Bill of Rights - far superior to the British model.
Then why do you berate us for demanding our government to adhear to the constitution?

[Dr. Gonzo GED]

Oh, so now I'm an old guy, nice. :tongue0002::roflwithfeetcv2:
Maybe I have you confused with someone else.

You're not and old guy?

Though you were older than me anyways...

[El Jefe]

Maybe I have you confused with someone else.

You're not and old guy?

Though you were older than me anyways...

Damn, I probably am old by a 30's something standards. Sheesh. :)

I'm 51, going on 12.

[circuits]

I'm interested sir. Are you a Stalinist, a Fascist, or a weird and wonderful anarchist who believes leaders (if any) should be picked via a cage fight?

If you must label me, I'm a "little el" libertarian. Which is anarchy with a national identity, or fascism without the fanaticism, by modern political party standards.

If you're willing to stand against me in a cage fight for leadership of the world, I must also admit to being intrigued.

[Joey]

You are a whiny troll bitch you know that?

Seriously, what's this "Someone was rude to me on the internet, is he your boyfriend, somebody call the whhhaaaaaammmmmbulance!" shit?

Why don't you refrain from posting untill the sand is cleaned from your vagina?

Your really only re-enforcing everybodies already poor opinion of you.

But you were complaining I was rude to poor Jeffrey. Make your mind up! I suspect Jeffrey doesn't need your defence. He's as tough as old boots.

Any more complaints? Come on spit it out. You're angry about something but are having trouble putting it into words. So you're spluttering about vaginas and trolling while hiding behind poor Jeff.

[Dr. Gonzo GED]

But you were complaining I was rude to poor Jeffrey. Make your mind up! I suspect Jeffrey doesn't need your defence. He's as tough as old boots.

Any more complaints? Come on spit it out. You're angry about something but are having trouble putting it into words. So you're spluttering about vaginas and trolling while hiding behind poor Jeff.

*cough*
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychological_projection

Oh I'm sorry, were you pissing and moaning about something nobody cares about again? I completely ignored you. Please continue, though I can promise that I will ignore you further...

[Joey]

I was rude to Jeffrey
Jeffrey was rude to me
Gonzo defended Jeffrey and was been rude to me
I took the piss out of Jeffrey needing Gonzo to defend him and was rude to Gonzo
Gonzo wrote the word "vagina" on the internet
Jeffrey said "fuck off"


Scintillating stuff eh? But poor Syph. We've wrecked his thread.

[Dr. Gonzo GED]

I was rude to Jeffrey
Jeffrey was rude to me
Gonzo defended Jeffrey and was been rude to me
I took the piss out of Jeffrey needing Gonzo to defend him and was rude to Gonzo
Gonzo wrote the word "vagina" on the internet
Jeffrey said "fuck off"


Scintillating stuff eh? But poor Syph. We've wrecked his thread.
Pssst. Hey buddy. Yeah. Yeah you. Commear. Look, don't get upset or nothing, but just between us two, nobody gives a fuck about your internet experience, or your opinion of it. Nobody give a fuck about you at all to be perfectly honest.

Just trying to save you the trouble of embarrassing yourself further.

Oh, and another thing...

...vagina.:whatever:

[Joey]

Nobody give a fuck about you at all to be perfectly honest.

Except you, you funny wee fella. Well I give a fuck about you. Each time you cluck around me, like an obsessive chicken, I'll have a good laugh.

[El Jefe]

Scintillating stuff eh? But poor Syph. We've wrecked his thread.

Um, just how does one wreck a troll thread? And before you piss yourself, again, it's an obvious troll thread because before he posted it, he knew full well the denizens of this fine forum, wouldn't appreciate his nosensical, Euro-weenie take on things.

[Tx Dogblaster]

Hell I've lived here all of my life and I didn't know that TV ads bought elections. I don't even know anybody that pays attention to them to be honest so who gives a shit how much money the politicians spend?

And what's this about determining the outcome of elections through a cage fight between opposing candidates? Again, I've lived here all of my life and never knew that was an option. That's a way better idea than standing in line at the poles. Can they fight to the death? NOW we're talking!!!!

[Dr. Gonzo GED]

Except you, you funny wee fella. Well I give a fuck about you. Each time you cluck around me, like an obsessive chicken, I'll have a good laugh.
I only care about this forum, and busting your balls is simply me doing my part to out-troll the trolls. I've been doing it on this site for years before you came here, and I'll be doing it long after you've been replaced by a more entertaining troll.

Frankly, I find you rather bland. I'd ask you to step it up a notch, but I already know this is you bringing your a-game.

Sad really...

[Syph]

Um, just how does one wreck a troll thread? And before you piss yourself, again, it's an obvious troll thread because before he posted it, he knew full well the denizens of this fine forum, wouldn't appreciate his nosensical, Euro-weenie take on things.

It's not whether you win or lose, it's taking part that counts! :)

[Joey]

Um, just how does one wreck a troll thread? And before you piss yourself, again, it's an obvious troll thread because before he posted it, he knew full well the denizens of this fine forum, wouldn't appreciate his nosensical, Euro-weenie take on things.

But your definition of troll is a wide one Jeffrey. It includes big tough gunsnet guys who, according to you, will feel all trolled and upset because some 17 yr old dude asks them their opinion on the welfare state.

Relax Jeffrey. No harm's been done. Besides, who appointed you troll-hunter-in-chief? I never voted for you.

[Syph]

I only care about this forum, and busting your balls is simply me doing my part to out-troll the trolls.

In my country we call the exchange banter. Joe was simply having a bant-off with Jefferson. Maybe we should return to the topic at hand.

Joey, please resume countering the points rather than indulging in mindless banter.

[Dr. Gonzo GED]

It's not whether you win or lose, it's taking part that counts! :)
What the hell are you still doing here?

Shouldn't you be working hard towards your first mal-pratice suit?

[Dr. Gonzo GED]

In my country we call the exchange banter. Joe was simply having a bant-off with Jefferson. Maybe we should return to the topic at hand.

Joey, please resume countering the points rather than indulging in mindless banter.
You still here?

Did you know Lilly Allen wrote a song about you?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fUYaosyR4bE

[PROBASCO]

Unless you are really rich, I'll contribute more taxes than I use and you will contribute a more similar amount in taxes.


Obama is nothing more than a run of the mill one term president...

your right, obama is much like you, a disease of ignorance and arrogance.
your posts smell like about 99% bullshit. You have no clue as to what your spewing but you beleive every word.
your a danger to others, a cancer and here in America we try to whipe out cancer at every opportunity, so go sell your hip pocket socialism to a group that wants to hear it. Here, your a smell little turd that just wont flush..

I usually do not attack people personally, but I take exception with your brand of sickness.

[Syph]

What the hell are you still doing here?

Shouldn't you be working hard towards your first mal-pratice suit?

Got me... right there... :hurt:


You still here?

Did you know Lilly Allen wrote a song about you?

Gee, what happened to Gonzo the patient, the wise? As a politically dynamic individual you know how I'm swayed easily.

By the way, I don't listen to the pop music shite. I'm into prog rock: porcupine tree, karmakanic etc.

[blacksheep]

[QUOTE=Dr. Gonzo GED;69:yuch::whatever:
Seriously, what's this "Someone was rude to me on the internet, is he your boyfriend, somebody call the whhhaaaaaammmmmbulance!" shit?

Why don't you refrain from posting untill the sand is cleaned from your vagina?

Your really only re-enforcing everybodies already poor opinion of you.[/QUOTE]

A grown man going by " Joey " That should have been your first clue that he is a knob polisher.

[blacksheep]

[QUOTE=Dr. Gonzo GED
Seriously, what's this "Someone was rude to me on the internet, is he your boyfriend, somebody call the whhhaaaaaammmmmbulance!" shit?

Why don't you refrain from posting untill the sand is cleaned from your vagina?

Your really only re-enforcing everybodies already poor opinion of you.[/QUOTE]

A grown man going by " Joey " That should have been your first clue that he is a knob polisher.

[Joey]

In my country we call the exchange banter. Joe was simply having a bant-off with Jefferson. Maybe we should return to the topic at hand.

Joey, please resume countering the points rather than indulging in mindless banter.

Roger Wilco. But don't you think Gonzo and Jeffrey are interesting types: trolling a thread under cover of claiming others are trolling it? Plus the claim that merely to expose a Gunsnet member to welfare state discussion is, itself, an act of trolling?

[Syph]

your right, obama is much like you, a disease of ignorance and arrogance.
your posts smell like about 99% bullshit. You have no clue as to what your spewing but you beleive every word.
your a danger to others, a cancer and here in America we try to whipe out cancer at every opportunity, so go sell your hip pocket socialism to a group that wants to hear it. Here, your a smell little turd that just wont flush..

I usually do not attack people personally, but I take exception with your brand of sickness.

1st Ammendment, but your opinion means as little as mine. Yet again you provide no argument other than the ad hominem. Reductio ad Stalinum seems to be the case with this thread. No mention of successful socialists such as Clement Atlee, Harold Macmillan, Aneurin Bevan etc. Just the communist authoritarians, never the social democrats.

[PROBASCO]

never thought i would want SYPH-LESS, BUT I DO, I DO,

SOMEONE PUT A TRACK ON SYPH AND LETS SEE WHAT OTHER SITES HE VISITS, MAYBE WE CAN GO TROLL WHERE WE ARE NOT WANTED..

[Syph]

Roger Wilco. But don't you think Gonzo and Jeffrey are interesting types: trolling a thread under cover of claiming others are trolling it? Plus the claim that merely to expose a Gunsnet member to welfare state discussion is, itself, an act of trolling?

Gonzo and Jefferson bring a wealth of knowledge when they can be bothered. Perhaps some intellectual encouragement would help.

[Dr. Gonzo GED]

Plus the claim that merely to expose a Gunsnet member to welfare state discussion is, itself, an act of trolling?
Depending on the member "exposed", it really is. :lool:

[Tx Dogblaster]

In my country we call the exchange banter. Joe was simply having a bant-off with Jefferson. Maybe we should return to the topic at hand.

Joey, please resume countering the points rather than indulging in mindless banter.

Hmmm, yes Joe. Please carry on. And would you please make Master Syphilis some tea and biscuits at your earliest convenience?

Just kidding. Let him starve. Please continue with the mindless socialist jizz that you're spewing with such poise and tact. It's quite entertaining. It ranks right up there with clubbing baby seals and I thoroughly enjoy that!!!

[PROBASCO]

The United States exists because we believe English over taxation was un-fair enough to fight against it. For the life of me, I don’t see why liberals cant get this through the big Obama loving, stupid heads!

SADLY, A RECENT STUDY SHOWS 26% OF AMERICANS DO NOT KNOW WHAT IT IS WE CELEBRATE ON JULY 4TH.

[Dr. Gonzo GED]

SADLY, A RECENT STUDY SHOWS 26% OF AMERICANS DO NOT KNOW WHAT IT IS WE CELEBRATE ON JULY 4TH.
Must be the same ones that can't find the Pacific ocean on a world map.

[Dr. Gonzo GED]

Please continue with the mindless socialist jizz that you're spewing with such poise and tact. It's quite entertaining. It ranks right up there with clubbing baby seals and I thoroughly enjoy that!!!
Joey discussing the virtues of totalitarian governance...
http://i85.photobucket.com/albums/k51/otto_rex/sealmn002-cu3.jpg

[El Jefe]

Roger Wilco. But don't you think Gonzo and Jeffrey are interesting types: trolling a thread under cover of claiming others are trolling it? Plus the claim that merely to expose a Gunsnet member to welfare state discussion is, itself, an act of trolling?

Dude, how would your Euro-weenie board react if I joined and all I wanted to talk about was hunting, shooting and heterosexual stuff?

[Dr. Gonzo GED]

Dude, how would your Euro-weenie board react if I joined and all I wanted to talk about was hunting, shooting and heterosexual stuff?
They would ban you outright while claiming to never ban anybody outright.

Guess how I know this?

[El Jefe]

They would ban you outright while claiming to never ban anybody outright.

Guess how I know this?

I believe it, right after all these guys first came over and started sharing their wisdom, I went over and read quite a few threads. It was like visiting Mars, only gayer.

[blacksheep]

Dude, how would your Euro-weenie board react if I joined and all I wanted to talk about was hunting, shooting and heterosexual stuff?

You would probably have to go to the Clay Aiken board to do that.:roflwithfeetcv2:

[Syph]

I believe it, right after all these guys first came over and started sharing their wisdom, I went over and read quite a few threads. It was like visiting Mars, only gayer.

Now with the gay jokes... DADT! That's the policy on this board. I'm not an ass-pirate myself, and none of the members on that board act homo... except maybe Dan Pthleome...

[HDR]

Now with the gay jokes... DADT! That's the policy on this board. I'm not an ass-pirate myself, and none of the members on that board act homo...

We used to have a Gay here. As he was really into firearms and shooting; the majority of the group was nicer to him than they are to you.


Can you guess why??

[Syph]

We used to have a Gay here. As he was really into firearms and shooting; the majority of the group was nicer to him than they are to you.

Can you guess why??

Used to... explains a lot. I know you guys can't stand a Brokeback on this board. Also, I'm not here to get on your good sides, I'm here to contribute. Silent visitors stay on your good side, vocal people are disliked generally...

[HDR]

Used to... explains a lot. I know you guys can't stand a Brokeback on this board. Also, I'm not here to get on your good sides, I'm here to contribute. Silent visitors stay on your good side, vocal people are disliked generally...


It has nothing to do with silence; he never pushed his "shit" on anyone else.

Plus when you're trying to sell a car it's re-sale value isn't much when it is broke. The same applies to anything for sale when it is broke or is a proven value. People need jobs not more ways of being supported by the government.

[Joey]

People need jobs not more ways of being supported by the government.

Do both. The US needs a national high speed rail network. People need to be got out of aeroplanes and into 400mph electric trains. And national high speed fibre-optic broadband infrastructure to run US industry and commerce into the mid 21st century.

Private industry can partnership such projects with government but won't do it alone. Capitalism's no good at big infrastructure jobs when profit's a long way off. Shareholders just shift their money to short term speculation. Government - the people with their tax dollars and elected politicians - must organise it and underwrite it.

That's how Roosevelt pulled America out of the Great Depression - building dams and interstate highways and taxing the rich till they squealed. He put the nation to work, building for the future with tax dollars, getting people off their arses and out of poverty into useful work.

Each time you drive on an interstate highway today you're part of Roosevelt's socialist legacy! LOL

That's why your Tea Party guys are such ignoramus anti-patriots. The answer to America's problems is there for all to see. Look at Roosevelt's record. See how he projected the power of the federal state.

Not in the destructive Bush sense of killing brown people abroad, wrecking your civil liberties, and shrinking the tax-base, but by building a better America at home, from which you still benefit today.

[El Jefe]

WTF? Eisenhower built the Interstate Hwy system and we've been putting in fiber optic lines for years. I have a friend of mine that owns a company that installs it. I had fiber optic lines placed in front of my cabinet shop in 96, and Sprint payed the freight, not some commie bureaucrat.

[Joey]

WTF? Eisenhower built the Interstate Hwy system

Sure, but it was a continuation of the New Deal started by Roosevelt. Amusing to see Eisenhower taxed the rich at 92% during his Presidency.

[Blacksmith]

Do both. The US needs a national high speed rail network. People need to be got out of aeroplanes and into 400mph electric trains. And national high speed fibre-optic broadband infrastructure to run US industry and commerce into the mid 21st century.


400 MPH electric trains LMAO
The TSA would have a blast with that. LOL

Your suggesting that we tear up our landscape and spend trillions on a toy train that can’t do anything that an airplane can’t do more efficiently.

You guys are truly are a bunch of moon bats. :laughingtohard:

BTW
Can you read the dribble you post with a straight face?

[HDR]

Do both. The US needs a national high speed rail network. People need to be got out of aeroplanes and into 400mph electric trains. And national high speed fibre-optic broadband infrastructure to run US industry and commerce into the mid 21st century.

Transportation isn't as much of a problem as not many durable goods to transport. This is what happens when idiot politicians lower trade barriers converting a manufacturing based economy to a service based one. Here a Class 8 or interstate tractor and trailer can haul a lot of burgers and fires. LOL


Private industry can partnership such projects with government but won't do it alone. Capitalism's no good at big infrastructure jobs when profit's a long way off. Shareholders just shift their money to short term speculation. Government - the people with their tax dollars and elected politicians - must organise it and underwrite it.

America did just fine creating a now obsolete railroad system, communications systems etc via the capitalist system. We had self made industrial barons; not born to it barons as you do.
:D


That's how Roosevelt pulled America out of the Great Depression - building dams and interstate highways and taxing the rich till they squealed. He put the nation to work, building for the future with tax dollars, getting people off their arses and out of poverty into useful work.

If you read history, the Great Depression lasted longer because Roosevelt kept trying to fix it. Remember 0bama's promise that if the 1.514 trillion dollar stimulus passed; unemployment would stay under 8% and 500,000 new jobs would be created each month.

As we use heavy equipment which requires less manpower to build roads, bridges and dams nowadays; Roosevelt's work programs worked then but not now.



Each time you drive on an interstate highway today you're part of Roosevelt's socialist legacy! LOL

More Eisenhower's than Roosevelt's.


That's why your Tea Party guys are such ignoramus anti-patriots. The answer to America's problems is there for all to see. Look at Roosevelt's record. See how he projected the power of the federal state.

How dare they demand fiscal responsibility.. LMAO


Not in the destructive Bush sense of killing brown people abroad, wrecking your civil liberties, and shrinking the tax-base, but by building a better America at home, from which you still benefit today.

They drew first blood means a lot more than just the title of a stupid wannabe movie...

[El Jefe]

Sure, but it was a continuation of the New Deal started by Roosevelt. Amusing to see Eisenhower taxed the rich at 92% during his Presidency.

No, it wasn't. Eisenhower built the Interstate system as part of the Cold War logistics measures. It had nothing to do with Roosevelt. You find it funny that the wealthy were punitively taxed in the 50's, do you find it equally amusing that JFK lowered taxes and kicked off the 60's boom years?

[Joey]

400 MPH electric trains LMAO
The TSA would have a blast with that. LOL

Your suggesting that we tear up our landscape and spend trillions on a toy train that can’t do anything that an airplane can’t do more efficiently.

You guys are truly are a bunch of moon bats. :laughingtohard:

BTW
Can you read the dribble you post with a straight face?

Europe's been quietly investing in high speed rail for years. The current map:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/9/9f/High_Speed_Railroad_Map_Europe_2009.gif/600px-High_Speed_Railroad_Map_Europe_2009.gif

They're quicker that many air journeys, run on electricity so there's less pollution and can use diversified power generation (wind, wave, nuke etc), fewer security checks, and deliver you straight to and from city centres, saving vast amounts of time.

Maglev technology's just getting going. A Maglev holds the current speed record: 361 mph. French TGV commercial services run at up to 200 mph.

You need to plan ahead. What are you going to do when your petrol runs out and you haven't built the rail infrastructure, linked to alternative power generation? Poor America. It's sad to see right-wing idiologues torment a once-great nation.

[HDR]

Joey,
Obviously you do not know our history well enough to use it to make your points.

Don't feel alone; the average American progressive/socialist is just as guilty of the same lack of knowledge as you are. It is the result of trusting the education of children to libtards.

When a person lacks any solid footing in reality they make a poor teacher.

[Blacksmith]

Europe's been quietly investing in high speed rail for years. The current map:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/9/9f/High_Speed_Railroad_Map_Europe_2009.gif/600px-High_Speed_Railroad_Map_Europe_2009.gif

They're quicker that many air journeys, run on electricity so there's less pollution and can use diversified power generation (wind, wave, nuke etc), fewer security checks, and deliver you straight to and from city centres, saving vast amounts of time.

Maglev technology's just getting going. A Maglev holds the current speed record: 361 mph. French TGV commercial services run at up to 200 mph.

You need to plan ahead. What are you going to do when your petrol runs out and you haven't built the rail infrastructure, linked to alternative power generation? Poor America. It's sad to see right-wing idiologues torment a once-great nation.
Thousands of miles of rails cutting through remote country side with a 300 MPH train running across them is not planning for the future. That is unless you view your future as just another third world shit hole that was driven into the ground by socialist.

[HDR]

Europe's been quietly investing in high speed rail for years. The current map:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/9/9f/High_Speed_Railroad_Map_Europe_2009.gif/600px-High_Speed_Railroad_Map_Europe_2009.gif

They're quicker that many air journeys, run on electricity so there's less pollution and can use diversified power generation (wind, wave, nuke etc), fewer security checks, and deliver you straight to and from city centres, saving vast amounts of time.

Maglev technology's just getting going. A Maglev holds the current speed record: 361 mph. French TGV commercial services run at up to 200 mph.

You need to plan ahead. What are you going to do when your petrol runs out and you haven't built the rail infrastructure, linked to alternative power generation? Poor America. It's sad to see right-wing idiologues torment a once-great nation.

Drop all of Europe into America and you might get it. We (used to) ship heavy goods on our rail systems using huge and slow freight trains. Again, besides more construction jobs what get value does this add unless you are a construction worker?

It doesn't build an economy; JOBS build an economy.

I expect next you'll tell us how unemployment benefits drive the economic engine the same as 0bama, Biden, Pelosi and Reid...

Debating you and the others shows people how out of touch with reality progressives are..

[Joey]

You find it funny that the wealthy were punitively taxed in the 50's, do you find it equally amusing that JFK lowered taxes and kicked off the 60's boom years?

Yes indeed. The rich getting scorched with high taxes is always funny. US taxes on the wealthy in the 1960s:

1954-1963: 91%
1964: 77%
1965-1967: 70%
1968: 75.25%
1969: 77%

Source (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Income_tax_in_the_United_States)


Obviously you do not know our history well enough to use it to make your points.

I've not had the chance to answer your excellent post yet. Don't be so impatient! Rome wasn't built in a day.

Beside's I've got Jeffrey yapping round my ankles. Amazingly, he's producing something approaching an argument, as opposed to yelling "Troll!" like a goosed schoolgirl.

Wonders will never cease.

[HDR]

I've not had the chance to answer your excellent post yet. Don't be so impatient! Rome wasn't built in a day.

Beside's I've got Jeffrey yapping round my ankles. Amazingly, he's producing something approaching an argument, as opposed to yelling "Troll!" like a goosed schoolgirl.

Wonders will never cease.

If you want to debate effectively, you might want to consider investing in some "genuine" American history books instead of the normal KoolAid versions. Applauding Roosevelt for Eisenhower's interstate system left you as an easy target..

As most of us have debated progressives before we already know that arguments that paint socialism as the failure it is are unworthy..

America's economic engine has always been job based not government subsidized; that leaves us worlds apart, mate.

[63DH8]

Sounds like Syph and the other Brits are doing their prepubescent chest thumbing about how great their Government is. The fact of the matter is the citizens of the US didn't want, nor do we want the British style of Government. That's why we kicked your ass our of our Country over 200 years ago. If we wanted the British style of Government, we would voted it back in.

I'm not saying the US style of Government is perfect. It's a damned sight better than most style of Governments around the world, to include socialistic styles of Government.

[Syph]

As most of us have debated progressives before we already know that arguments that paint socialism as the failure it is are unworthy..

Arguments? You just cry Stalin!

You offer nothing beyond this. I would be more excited to see a critique of Clement Atlee, or any prominent social democrat in Europe.

[Syph]

Sounds like Syph and the other Brits are doing their prepubescent chest thumbing about how great their Government is. The fact of the matter is the citizens of the US didn't want, nor do we want the British style of Government. That's why we kicked your ass our of our Country over 200 years ago.

The British government has changed a lot in 200 years!

[El Jefe]

Arguments? You just cry Stalin!

You offer nothing beyond this. I would be more excited to see a critique of Clement Atlee, or any prominent social democrat in Europe.

You're not letting it sink in, we don't want to live in a Orwellian nightmare. If you do, great, you have my blessing. But it's not going to happen here, not if I can do anything about it. Oh and another thing, I personally could give a shit about some fey little Euro-commie named Clement. Sheesh.

[Nimbly]

What's so bad about a welfare state?

"When everyone is equal everyone is poor". There is a reason the American Communist Party was never a big hit.

[matshock]

Europe's been quietly investing in high speed rail for years.


North America covers about double the land area and has somewhere between only 2/3-1/2 the population depending on how you define Western Europe. Even if we just built a few select routes in highly populated areas most people would have to drive to a train station to ride anyway.

Liberal politicians here float the idea once and a while and can't ever seem to make the numbers appealing even with their usual low level of f actuality.

Aside, the leftists here would all scream about the environment and either block or attempt to sabotage any construction.

[63DH8]

The British government has changed a lot in 200 years!

And we still don't like your style of Government. Most of us prefer passing our own laws instead of having our Government telling us what to do. In fact, it seems not many Brits enjoy their lifestyle. They're moving abroad faster than others are moving to Briton! http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/1569400/Emigration-soars-as-Britons-desert-the-UK.html

[Tx Dogblaster]

...They're moving abroad faster than others are moving to Briton!

With the exception of the ragheads... They're taking over the UK about as fast as the Mexicans are taking over the SW states. At least the Mexicans aren't bringing Sharia law with them. Wasn't it the UK that took the holocaust out of their school history books because it offended the ragheads? Such enlightened pussies they are.

[Nimbly]

With the exception of the ragheads... They're taking over the UK about as fast as the Mexicans are taking over the SW states. At least the Mexicans aren't bringing Sharia law with them. Wasn't it the UK that took the holocaust out of their school history books because it offended the ragheads? Such enlightened pussies they are.

Not to mention the problems the Brits are having with illegal Polskis. I don't know where y'all get off saying your system of government is better then ours. If it is so great then why does Ireland, and Scotland want to have nothing to do with your wonderful United Kingdom? I look at Ireland and the UK, the same way as I look at the Kurds and Iraq.

[Syph]

With the exception of the ragheads... They're taking over the UK about as fast as the Mexicans are taking over the SW states. At least the Mexicans aren't bringing Sharia law with them. Wasn't it the UK that took the holocaust out of their school history books because it offended the ragheads? Such enlightened pussies they are.

How much BS do they feed you out here? We clearly aren't the only once being indoctrinated.

The Holocaust is in the history books and there is a mandatory week of education in the UK where the remaining holocaust survivors are invited to every state school in the country.

It's only the crazy muslim schools that exclude the holocaust.


If it is so great then why does Ireland, and Scotland want to have nothing to do with your wonderful United Kingdom? I look at Ireland and the UK, the same way as I look at the Kurds and Iraq.

Ireland is divided because the Irish Anglicans want to be part of England and the Irish Catholics wanted to rule themselves.

Scotland is one of the most socialist countries in the world with an NHS, free university education for all, unemployment benefit etc. There public services would destroy their economy if they left the UK.

My mother is a Scot, and like 99% of them she is a hand-on-heart socialist. She'd even call herself a christian socialist!

[63DH8]

Syph, how about addressing the fact that your countrymen aren't tolerating what's going on in your country, but they're doing so by moving out? It's at the tune of over 207,000 British citizens left the country last year. That's about one every three minutes. After the invasion is over, who will be left to rule British Empire?

[Charliebravo]

After the invasion is over, who will be left to rule British Empire?The Prime Mullah?

[63DH8]

The Prime Mullah?

My ex married a Brit. He left England because he enjoys the freedom to choose to do what he wanted to do over here compared to his former homeland. I say "former" because he loves our freedoms enough to become a US citizen. He's a good man. He's a hard worker and never goes a few weeks before getting another job or creating a business. Best of all, he keeps my ex out of my hair! :lol: I'm glad he became an American! :thumbsup:

In the end, there may be only a mullah left ruling the Country there! btw... It's not much different than how the Muzzies took over Montenegro and other Balkan countries. They couldn't take it over by force, so they took it over by populating the country, then take it over by becoming the majority and voting it away from the original population. They'll use the laws to their advantage.

[Dr. Gonzo GED]

It's only the crazy muslim schools that exclude the holocaust.


So that's OK with you then?

[El Jefe]

Errrrr, well, gun saturation! :laughingtohard:

[Syph]

It's at the tune of over 207,000 British citizens left the country last year.

I was tempted at one point but the USA is saturated with doctors so it would be pointless anyway.


After the invasion is over, who will be left to rule British Empire?

1. Britain doesn't have an empire any more because we have other priorities than illegal imperialism.
2. The UK is a multicultural society and fundamentally secularist. We have a tiny number of muslims peers and very few muslim MPs. They have no political power as of yet. They are here for money and jobs.


He left England because he enjoys the freedom to choose to do what he wanted to do over here compared to his former homeland.

If he left the country because he didn't want to pay taxes then that is his imperative.


In the end, there may be only a mullah left ruling the Country there! btw... It's not much different than how the Muzzies took over Montenegro and other Balkan countries. They couldn't take it over by force, so they took it over by populating the country, then take it over by becoming the majority and voting it away from the original population. They'll use the laws to their advantage.

You cannot equate former soviet states with the UK. The muslims were a persecuted minority and therefore became fiercely religious.


So that's OK with you then?

Your words not mine. Schools that fund themselves don't need to heed the national curriculum.

Anyway, the first amendment guarantees free speech... you would have let it happen in the USA otherwise your constitution stands for nought. Unless muslims can't be American...

[Dr. Gonzo GED]

Your words not mine. Schools that fund themselves don't need to heed the national curriculum.

Anyway, the first amendment guarantees free speech... you would have let it happen in the USA otherwise your constitution stands for nought. Unless muslims can't be American...
My words? What the hell are you talking about? I ASKED YOU A QUESTION Syph! Are you going to answer it or just keep rambling nonsnese.

Is it O.K. with you that Madrassas are not teaching their students (your peers) about the holocaust for purely racist reasons?

As for our "rights". Yeah, you can do or think whatever stupid shit you want in thsi country but there are reprocussions. As in, if your the kind of scum fuck that want's to deny the holocaust publicly, you may find it difficult to function in most of our society. As in, hard to get jobs, not get kicked out of school, not get sued for defemation, etc...

So, are you going to give your opinion on Englands blind eye towrds racism in schools, or just say some more ignorant shit about our constitution?

[Charliebravo]

1. Britain doesn't have an empire any more because we have other priorities than illegal imperialism.

Bullshit. You simply traded your empire for services. Now it's left to the U.S. taxpayer to subsidize your defense. You Limeys will sit on your side of the pond mocking us for our guns and religion, yet come slithering back every time one of your neighbors casts a covetous eye to their west. Please don't lecture us on our failure to provide adequate "benefits" to our citizens. Once we're done subsidzing the defense of Europe, there's not much money left.

[Joey]

Bullshit. You simply traded your empire for services. Now it's left to the U.S. taxpayer to subsidize your defense. You Limeys will sit on your side of the pond mocking us for our guns and religion, yet come slithering back every time one of your neighbors casts a covetous eye to their west. Please don't lecture us on our failure to provide adequate "benefits" to our citizens. Once we're done subsidzing the defense of Europe, there's not much money left.

No worries mate, Russia will save us just like it did in WW2.

http://greatpowerpolitics.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/12/reichstag_flag_and_the_fall_of_berlin-484x350.jpg

[Charliebravo]

No worries mate, Russia will save us just like it did in WW2.

Yeah, but then we'd be stuck with flying food to you like we had to do in Berlin.

[El Jefe]

No worries mate, Russia will save us just like it did in WW2.

http://greatpowerpolitics.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/12/reichstag_flag_and_the_fall_of_berlin-484x350.jpg

Yeah, they had nothing but good intentions at the end of of WWII and during the Cold War. Your intellectual dishonesty is pathetic. We should have let the Germans or Soviets grind you like sausage.

[Charliebravo]

We should have let the Germans or Soviets grind you like sausage.Due to my Anglo-Scot-Irish heritage, I always thought that I would gladly pick up a rifle myself to defend the tiny islands if necessary. After all, aside from the minor tiff in the 1700's, we still share a common language, history, and culture. Then I discovered the Brit forums. Now I've decided to watch the fall of the U.K. on Fox......that's if the ruling Mullahs don't put a media blackout on the whole thing.

[El Jefe]

Due to my Anglo-Scot-Irish heritage, I always thought that I would gladly pick up a rifle myself to defend the tiny islands if necessary. After all, aside from the minor tiff in the 1700's, we still share a common language, history, and culture. Then I discovered the Brit forums. Now I've decided to watch the fall of the U.K. on Fox......that's if the ruling Mullahs don't put a media blackout on the whole thing.

I have basically the same ancestral background. But having learned what ingrates these fuckers are, I say they're on their own. The whole arrogant lot of em.

[Syph]

Bullshit. You simply traded your empire for services. Now it's left to the U.S. taxpayer to subsidize your defense.

What? We pay for our own armed forces and commit billions to projects like the JSF etc.


You Limeys will sit on your side of the pond mocking us for our guns and religion, yet come slithering back every time one of your neighbors casts a covetous eye to their west. Please don't lecture us on our failure to provide adequate "benefits" to our citizens. Once we're done subsidzing the defense of Europe, there's not much money left.

The Cold War is over. Besides we are allies and have committed thousands of troops and hundreds of lives in A-stan... GWB mobilised you military for a democratic neo-conservative crusade. That was his choice to make.

And don't you dare complain about your taxes to us. You don't know what the word "tax" means...

[Syph]

I have basically the same ancestral background. But having learned what ingrates these fuckers are, I say they're on their own. The whole arrogant lot of em.

Jefferson... I'm 100% Irish beyond 4 generations, 25% English, 25% Irish, 25% Scottish beyond 2 generations and 50% Scottish 50% English.

Arrogance... don't complain about arrogance. The British are the most apathetic and whiny country on the planet. I've been to your country twice and every time I have been treated to the wonderful American hospitality. If there is one thing you do not lack it is arrogance and pride.

[Syph]

25% English, 25% Irish, 50% Scottish

Typo.

[Syph]

No worries mate, Russia will save us just like it did in WW2.

Low blow, Joe. The Russians won the race, they didn't save the day...

[El Jefe]

Jefferson... I'm 100% Irish beyond 4 generations, 25% English, 25% Irish, 25% Scottish beyond 2 generations and 50% Scottish 50% English.

Arrogance... don't complain about arrogance. The British are the most apathetic and whiny country on the planet. I've been to your country twice and every time I have been treated to the wonderful American hospitality. If there is one thing you do not lack it is arrogance and pride.

We have cause, and we don't try to tell you your political business. Each election cycle the British press has as many stories about our elections as you do your own. I could care less what you people do, I expect the same from you.

[Charliebravo]

I know this is a controversial stance to take on this forum, but I think that a welfare state is incredibly beneficial to all those who use it.Not so much for those who have to pay for it.

[HDR]

The Holocaust is in the history books and there is a mandatory week of education in the UK where the remaining holocaust survivors are invited to every state school in the country.

It's only the crazy muslim schools that exclude the holocaust.

Syph, if Muslim schools are excluded; then it isn't exactly what we'd call mandatory. My German colleagues often tell me they speak the King's English not American. To them mandatory means you must.

[Dr. Gonzo GED]

Arrogance... don't complain about arrogance.
Are you going to answer my question or not?

[63DH8]

I was tempted at one point but the USA is saturated with doctors so it would be pointless anyway.

One of the reasons the US is saturated with doctors is they, at the moment, are not told what they can charge and how much. Medical care isn't restricted like in the UK.




1. Britain doesn't have an empire any more because we have other priorities than illegal imperialism.

You took what I posted out of context. Certainly, you're more intelligent than to take what I posted any way than what I intended.... Or are you? Would you like me to rephrase what I posted so you can understand? Perhaps you posted your reply because you did understand and don't have an answer.

Thankfully, the UK did realize their imperialism over the colonies were illegal. Unfortunately, it took lives on both sides for the colonists to kick the imperialist Brits out of our Country.



2. The UK is a multicultural society and fundamentally secularist. We have a tiny number of muslims peers and very few muslim MPs. They have no political power as of yet. They are here for money and jobs.

The world is "yet". Much longer will the British people tolerate having their laws and their multicultural awareness against them before they have a war between the native Brits and the Muslims who decided they should rule? Certainly, you have noticed the protests from the Muslims who decided they had their religious beliefs oppressed.



If he left the country because he didn't want to pay taxes then that is his imperative.

You don't have much in the way of reading retention, do you? I never said it was about taxes, did I? I said he enjoys the freedoms that he didn't have back home.




You cannot equate former soviet states with the UK. The muslims were a persecuted minority and therefore became fiercely religious.


You really need a reading comprehension class before you start your medical classes. Your reply has nothing to do with what I wrote, not once, but several times. I fear for your clients lives! Maybe that's one reason your countrymen are leaving.

Study in depth how the Muslims came to be in the regions they're in now. Over-simplified, if they couldn't take a region over by war, they would populate the region and take it over by becoming the majority. This is not something they would do in a year, a decade or two. They sometimes take over a hundred years. Sometimes they would try force several times to take over a region. Sometimes they don't try force. They simply populate. Either way, they expand enough to take over the countries I mentioned.

You say the Muslims are persecuted. Who is persecuting them?

[Syph]

Not so much for those who have to pay for it.

Paying for what the country uses with income taxes seems a fair and progressive way to spread the healthcare bill.


Syph, if Muslim schools are excluded; then it isn't exactly what we'd call mandatory. My German colleagues often tell me they speak the King's English not American. To them mandatory means you must.

All private schools are excluded because they are not government property. I'll revise that statement:

A holocaust awareness week is mandatory in all state schools.


Are you going to answer my question or not?

No, I find Saudi/muslim education abhorrent. It has been recently exposed in a Panorama programme for the disgusting mockery of education it is.

However, it is still being funded and of the freedoms we have in this country, parents of pupils at the school are allowed to pay for these schools to exist. As long as the money keeps rolling in, the schools stay open.

It would be a very British reaction to close them down and the Conservative government don't want that. It wants to Americanise the UK in terms of liberty but maintain the NHS and state education.

[Syph]

Medical care isn't restricted like in the UK.

I take this point, but the Conservatives are cutting out bureaucracy starting next year.


You took what I posted out of context. Certainly, you're more intelligent than to take what I posted any way than what I intended.... Or are you? Would you like me to rephrase what I posted so you can understand? Perhaps you posted your reply because you did understand and don't have an answer.

Moot point for moot point...


The world is "yet". Much longer will the British people tolerate having their laws and their multicultural awareness against them before they have a war between the native Brits and the Muslims who decided they should rule? Certainly, you have noticed the protests from the Muslims who decided they had their religious beliefs oppressed.

The muslims are 3% of the population and only concentrated enough to try at take seats near Bradford. That is where the reactionary BNP Nazis are springing up, wanting to deport or execute all the muslims in the UK.


You don't have much in the way of reading retention, do you? I never said it was about taxes, did I? I said he enjoys the freedoms that he didn't have back home.

Which freedoms then?


You really need a reading comprehension class before you start your medical classes. Your reply has nothing to do with what I wrote, not once, but several times. I fear for your clients lives! Maybe that's one reason your countrymen are leaving.

You wrote:


In the end, there may be only a mullah left ruling the Country there! btw... It's not much different than how the Muzzies took over Montenegro and other Balkan countries. They couldn't take it over by force, so they took it over by populating the country, then take it over by becoming the majority and voting it away from the original population. They'll use the laws to their advantage.

There is only one country in Europe that is a muslim majority and that was Bosnia. The Serbs committed genocide against the muslim Bosnians in the 1990's. Bosnia became muslim in 1463 when they were invaded by the Ottoman empire. You are completely wrong.


Study in depth how the Muslims came to be in the regions they're in now. Over-simplified, if they couldn't take a region over by war, they would populate the region and take it over by becoming the majority. This is not something they would do in a year, a decade or two. They sometimes take over a hundred years. Sometimes they would try force several times to take over a region. Sometimes they don't try force. They simply populate. Either way, they expand enough to take over the countries I mentioned.

You have been reading way to many books on this subject. A quick search reveals that there are 47 muslim majority countries and all of them are in Arabia, Africa, Bosnia and Indonesia.

All of these territories have been muslim majorities for hundreds of years. Most of Africa and Arabia have been muslim since Muhammad rode across the Sahara wielding a scimitar and leading an army.

This population bullshit sounds like something Konspiracy Krupski (Sorry...) would come up with.


You say the Muslims are persecuted. Who is persecuting them?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bosnian_Genocide

[Syph]

Syph, if Muslim schools are excluded; then it isn't exactly what we'd call mandatory. My German colleagues often tell me they speak the King's English not American. To them mandatory means you must.

Technicalities...

[Dr. Gonzo GED]

No, I find Saudi/muslim education abhorrent. It has been recently exposed in a Panorama programme for the disgusting mockery of education it is.

I also find our own brand of religious indoctrination prettied up as "education" an affront to reason. (In the states we have "creationism" being taught as both science and history...)

However, if you find their beliefs so abhorrent, then why are you defending them on this board?