Which system is "better"?

[NewbieAKguy]

To be more specific I'm referring to PTR-91/HK91's roller-lock system versus the DI system of the AR-10 family of rifles. And for the AR-10 does it depend on it being carbine, mid-length, or rifle length gas system? Is one system inherently more accurate than the other?

The reason(s) I'm asking for opinions/POVs is because, as I've mentioned before, I'm mulling over the idea of selling my PTR and getting an AR-10 type rifle due to it being just the AR-15's bigger brother with same control layout and therefore familiarity of use/motions. Plus I like the AR type sights way more than I do the HK sights.

If money was no object I'd be going for one of the current piston .308s: SCAR 17s, lwrci repr, pof-usa p308, or primary weapons system due to the cleaner operation. (Not trying to restart debate of DI vs. piston, just my personal preference.) Since I'm living within my means (usually, ;)) I'd be happy with a DI .308 since it, or ARs, don't need to be spotless to run, contrary to popular belief.

So what say you? If the AR-10 looks to be the "better" rifle I'll give my thoughts on which brands I've narrowed my list to and get your thoughts on them. Sorry for the long read and thanks for the input.

[NewbieAKguy]

Anyone?

[AK-J]

No first hand experience owning either rifle. However, if you plan on ever reloading, the AR-10 should be easier on the brass.

[FunkyPertwee]

Seems like the PTR would be the collector's choice, and the AR-10 would be the shooter's choice.

I like HK roller lock weapons, but its dead technology. Seems like it would be easier to get new parts to customize an AR-10 like match fire contol groups, custom stocks, and a wide variety of optics.

[Dafapa]

I'm pretty sure the AR-10 will be much easier to put optics and accessories on. After considerable effort I failed to get a good scope solution for my CETME. The affordability of mags is a strong selling point for PTR type guns, but the inability to readily mount so much as a red dot scope makes it a no go for me now.

[Schuetzenman]

If you're out to be an acessory hound the AR10 would probably be the one to go for. Reloading as mentioned will benefit from none fluted chamber on the brass IMO. You can probably also get a much nicer trigger for the AR.

The HK types do have the ability to use a low mount picatinny rail for optics / red dots. http://www.hkparts.net/shop/pc/HK-93-HK33-HK-53-Optics-and-Rails-c169.htm follow link, many to choose from.

As mentioned the HK does have the benefit of the lowest priced 20 round mags on the planet thanks to all those aluminum German 20 round mags that flooded the market years ago.

The AR10 situation, well thanks to C-Products the AR mag cost isn't the usual ass-raping on cost that they use to be. Priced around 15 bucks and made of stainless steel. Then there are the Magpul mags around 19 each.

[El Laton Caliente]

PTR
You don't need trigger parts, you send the trigger pack in on a PTR and it comes back like glass...

The scope mounts can be more expensive on the PTR.

Slings, alternate butt stocks and other accessories are readily available. You can get 30 round mags and there is a drum available but those can be pricey.

Talk with Stubbiecat, he was shooting three gun with one.

[Penguin]

Sadly I have no experince with either or those two. I prefer the M1A and L1A1. I would like to try the HK type rifle though.

[FunkyPertwee]

I bought a PSL for my DMR fix. I know, I'm poor.

[NewbieAKguy]

No first hand experience owning either rifle. However, if you plan on ever reloading, the AR-10 should be easier on the brass.
Good point. I had forgotten about the flutes' affect on brass, but I put the brass deflector pad on my PTR to prevent the ding they're known for.


I'm pretty sure the AR-10 will be much easier to put optics and accessories on. After considerable effort I failed to get a good scope solution for my CETME. The affordability of mags is a strong selling point for PTR type guns, but the inability to readily mount so much as a red dot scope makes it a no go for me now.
Agreed on ease of mounting optics. But I have noticed new options for mounts for PTR style guns and prices coming down for HK claw mounts such as CDNN. Definite plus on prices of mags in PTR's favor, but with CProducts and new .308 Pmags now it's not as bad.


If you're out to be an acessory hound the AR10 would probably be the one to go for. Reloading as mentioned will benefit from none fluted chamber on the brass IMO. You can probably also get a much nicer trigger for the AR.

The HK types do have the ability to use a low mount picatinny rail for optics / red dots. http://www.hkparts.net/shop/pc/HK-93-HK33-HK-53-Optics-and-Rails-c169.htm follow link, many to choose from.

As mentioned the HK does have the benefit of the lowest priced 20 round mags on the planet thanks to all those aluminum German 20 round mags that flooded the market years ago.

The AR10 situation, well thanks to C-Products the AR mag cost isn't the usual ass-raping on cost that they use to be. Priced around 15 bucks and made of stainless steel. Then there are the Magpul mags around 19 each.
Agreed with S-man's points which coincide with Dafapa's. I have seen the mounts at hkparts.net, and even noticed one I thought about is on sale. I'm not much of an accessory whore, but my PTR came with the railed fore-end if/when I wanted to mount a foregrip/bipgod or flashlight. Def more options for AR10 though. Again the mag price difference is huge :D.

PTR
You don't need trigger parts, you send the trigger pack in on a PTR and it comes back like glass...

The scope mounts can be more expensive on the PTR.

Slings, alternate butt stocks and other accessories are readily available. You can get 30 round mags and there is a drum available but those can be pricey.

Talk with Stubbiecat, he was shooting three gun with one.

I did send my PTR to Bill Springfield in CO and it's pretty darn good. True, there are many stock options for PTRs, but on average they're pricier. Stubbicat is the one who helped me decide on getting the PTR in the first place as my first semi-auto .308. Got it before the Obamer was elected to save on price. I should def get more insight from him. How reliable are the 30 rounders and worth the cost? Drums are definitely out of my price range.

I bought a PSL for my DMR fix. I know, I'm poor.
Poor? No. Frugal? Yes :thumbsup:. Plus you can get the ammo cheaper.

I'll post my thoughts in another post to break up the length :D.

[FunkyPertwee]

Poor? No. Frugal? Yes :thumbsup:. Plus you can get the ammo cheaper.

I'll post my thoughts in another post to break up the length :D.


Yeah. It feels good sitting on several K of ammo. I wouldn't have half the ammo I do if I was buying new .308.

[NewbieAKguy]

To get the best of both worlds I had been considering getting one of CMMG's lowers that can take HK mags: http://cmmginc.secure-mall.com/item/CMMG-MK-8-.308-Stripped-Lower-1306, hadn't decided to get bare or partially complete. But for it to work CMMG said that the DPMS upper (only brand that'll work) much have some small machining done to accommodate the wider HK mag. Here is the email I sent them asking about the details and affects of the machining:

I'm considered getting one of your MK-8 .308 lowers and had a couple questions regarding the DPMS upper that would need machined to accept the G3 magazine. Once the necessary machining has been done to the upper, would the upper still work with a DPMS lower or your MK-3 lower without issues? And just for clarification will your MK-8 or MK-3 lowers work with other .308 uppers such as Rock River, Armalite, etc.? Thank you for your time.

Dustin

CMMG's response:

A modified DPMS upper will work fine with our Mk3 or a DPMS lower receiver. RRA or Armalite uppers will not work with DPMS compatible lower receivers.

Thank You,

I've heard good things about DPMS's .308 rifles, arcangel for sure likes them :), but if possible I'd like a mid-length gas system, which DPMS doesn't make for .308 currently; only carbine or full length. Am I being to picky by wanting a mid-length and should just go for carbine? Rifle length is too long; longest I'd want is 18" barrel. Or would you guys risk having the upper milled? CMMG's upper mod: http://64.184.32.112/cmmg_images/tbl_images/308/DPMSupperMod.pdf

My other thoughts are either going for a RRA .308 that use FAL mags (and offers mid-length I'd prefer) or go for a DPMS rifle and go for the CProducts and Pmags. And of course either brands have plenty of parts options out there to choose from.

So, there are my thoughts that have been floating around in my noggin. Any insights I may have missed? And as always all honest opinions and questions are welcomed.

[NewbieAKguy]

Yeah. It feels good sitting on several K of ammo. I wouldn't have half the ammo I do if I was buying new .308.

I totally agree with your line of thinking.

[El Laton Caliente]

How reliable are the 30 rounders and worth the cost? Drums are definitely out of my price range.


Very, they are factory contract mags for the South African Military. IIRC, built by Portugal's HK licensed factory. I did reviews of them and the CETME 25 round mags on the old HK/G3/CETME forum. The 30s are still around, but getting harder to find and more pricey. SOG had the 25 round CETMEs and they are out completely.

EDIT: I only have two samples of each.

The 30s would be great clipped or taped in a pair as first use mags. It is very difficult to find pouchs for .308 thirty rounders. Pouches for the G3 twenties are a dime a dozen. I have maybe 100 put up.

[NewbieAKguy]

Very, they are factory contract mags for the South African Military. IIRC, built by Portugal's HK licensed factory. I did reviews of them and the CETME 25 round mags on the old HK/G3/CETME forum. The 30s are still around, but getting harder to find and more pricey. SOG had the 25 round CETMEs and they are out completely.

EDIT: I only have two samples of each.

The 30s would be great clipped or taped in a pair as first use mags. It is very difficult to find pouchs for .308 thirty rounders. Pouches for the G3 twenties are a dime a dozen. I have maybe 100 put up.

Interesting. Wishing I would have kept an eye out for them, and knew more about them :). I got some of the pouches when you did the group buy, but I ended up selling them because I didn't want to look for/buy a German LBV and i couldn't find a cost effective way to adapt them to US style (alice, molle) vests/carriers...prices are hard to beat though!

[El Laton Caliente]

http://www.shop.hassayampasurplus.com/product.sc?productId=442

Set for $26 belt, suspenders, shovel cover small & medium packs....

http://www.supplydump.com/flectar-camo-harness-set

$14.95 for this one...

[NewbieAKguy]

http://www.shop.hassayampasurplus.com/product.sc?productId=442

Set for $26 belt, suspenders, shovel cover small & medium packs....
Hmmmmmm.

[El Laton Caliente]

Aim was where I got the mags and pouches cheap...

[NewbieAKguy]

I'll keep it in mind if/when I decide to keep my PTR. Thanks for the tips though ELC.

[El Laton Caliente]

The G3 30s:
http://whatacountry.com/hk91southafrican30-roundmagazine.aspx

[NewbieAKguy]

Thanks for the links ELC, they've been bookmarked JIC I decide to keep my PTR. I'm going to wait to decide so that everyone can see my second line of thinking on what rifles I have been pondering to replace my PTR.

[arcangel]

I dont have any exp in the HK rifle, but want one later down the line. I went with DPMS's LR 308 AP4 for my flame throwing DM type rifle. I was already familiar with the AR system, the M1A too, but I liked the " initial " lighter weight. Not so light now with quad rail and scope and bipod. But an excelent rifle for its size. Im able to hit 5 gallon buckets at 700 yards on a good day. With 168gr projectiles. Does HK's rifle have good accuracy at extended ranges? Cant stand 308 prices and availability in my area right now. Heres a pic.

[NewbieAKguy]

I dont have any exp in the HK rifle, but want one later down the line. I went with DPMS's LR 308 AP4 for my flame throwing DM type rifle. I was already familiar with the AR system, the M1A too, but I liked the " initial " lighter weight. Not so light now with quad rail and scope and bipod. But an excelent rifle for its size. Im able to hit 5 gallon buckets at 700 yards on a good day. With 168gr projectiles. Does HK's rifle have good accuracy at extended ranges? Cant stand 308 prices and availability in my area right now. Heres a pic.

Very nice rifle. I haven't been able to put a scope on the PTR to get a good idea about it's accuracy because of it's unique scope mounting options...getting an HK style claw mount or aftermarket low-rise mount as found in S-man's link. What length gas system does your rifle have? I'm guessing since it's an AP4 that it's carbine length? Any issues with it?

[gpwasr10]

AR-10, a buddy of mine had the same situation and he went with a DPMS 20". Looks like a normal 20" A3 AR, and it shoots like a dream. It also kicks less then the PTR and is easier to work with, as he already knows the AR in and out.

[arcangel]

I had some probs when I put the free float on, I had to remove the barrel to replace the barrel nut. The bolt wasnt feeding the next round, giving me a click instead of boom. Got that fixed. It does have the carbine gas system, but no problems with that. If you decide on a 308 AR take a look at Enidines hydrolic buffer, that shit sucks a lot of recoil out of it, the rifle also shoots a lot more smoothly and follow up shots are nice. Only mild regret I have is I wish I would of got a smaller scope, but same power. Like a Nightforce or a US optics.

[NewbieAKguy]

To get the best of both worlds I had been considering getting one of CMMG's lowers that can take HK mags: http://cmmginc.secure-mall.com/item/CMMG-MK-8-.308-Stripped-Lower-1306, hadn't decided to get bare or partially complete. But for it to work CMMG said that the DPMS upper (only brand that'll work) much have some small machining done to accommodate the wider HK mag. Here is the email I sent them asking about the details and affects of the machining:

I'm considered getting one of your MK-8 .308 lowers and had a couple questions regarding the DPMS upper that would need machined to accept the G3 magazine. Once the necessary machining has been done to the upper, would the upper still work with a DPMS lower or your MK-3 lower without issues? And just for clarification will your MK-8 or MK-3 lowers work with other .308 uppers such as Rock River, Armalite, etc.? Thank you for your time.

Dustin

CMMG's response:

A modified DPMS upper will work fine with our Mk3 or a DPMS lower receiver. RRA or Armalite uppers will not work with DPMS compatible lower receivers.

Thank You,

I've heard good things about DPMS's .308 rifles, arcangel for sure likes them :), but if possible I'd like a mid-length gas system, which DPMS doesn't make for .308 currently; only carbine or full length. Am I being to picky by wanting a mid-length and should just go for carbine? Rifle length is too long; longest I'd want is 18" barrel. Or would you guys risk having the upper milled? CMMG's upper mod: http://64.184.32.112/cmmg_images/tbl_images/308/DPMSupperMod.pdf

My other thoughts are either going for a RRA .308 that use FAL mags (and offers mid-length I'd prefer) or go for a DPMS rifle and go for the CProducts and Pmags. And of course either brands have plenty of parts options out there to choose from.

So, there are my thoughts that have been floating around in my noggin. Any insights I may have missed? And as always all honest opinions and questions are welcomed.

Thoughts on my thoughts?