will the U.S. invade Libya??

[Meat-Hook]

all day Friday, I watched Wolf Blitzer run his mouth about Libya. What he kept saying over and over again was:,..........."Weapons of Mass Destruction,......weapons of Mass destuction". Wolf,....and CNN, throughout the day.

"they are KILLING, civilians in Libya.!!!!

Hes got 10 Tons of Mustard Gas!!!!!!

Hmmm, where have we heard the weapons of mass destruction stuff before?? or will it be another Hostage situation?

the SAS is in Libya. Connect the dots. anybody think we might go into Libya??.... For "Humanitarian" reasons of course. Secure the oil before China takes them.

[Partisan1983]

Nope.......sadly we don't have the money or the man power for Libya

[l921428x]

I tend to agree, we need to concentrate on our own oil fields. After we do this then we can let these people do what they will and want to each other.
We will be able to watch the religion of peace, work it's magic.

[mriddick]

At most we'll send transports over to supply aid or help people out.

[cciota]

It doesn't matter because Zero doesn't have the balls to do it anyway. His wife, maybe, but not the messiah.

[El Laton Caliente]

According to Debeka we already have "Advisors" there.

[HDR]

According to Debeka we already have "Advisors" there.

Teaching them the arts of war.

"Supposedly" the eastern area of Libya is no longer under Qaddafi's control which means the new landlords must take control and keep it.

[jojo]

No, we won't invade. We'll cut out the middle man and just give the money straight to the next corrupt government there.

[HDR]

No, we won't invade. We'll cut out the middle man and just give the money straight to the next corrupt government there.

Lieberman mentioned a no fly zone to stop other "humanitarian" nations in the region from flying in more mercenaries. He also warned that the use of air power by Qaddafi must cease. Joe L must believe 0bama might find a set?

[alismith]

No.

[coppertales]

We have no business sending troops to afrika for any reason. chris3

[HDR]

We have no business sending troops to afrika for any reason. chris3


True, however 0bama's Egyptian speeches destabilized the region so now what?

[btcave]

No. Let Africa burn.

[matshock]

True, however 0bama's Egyptian speeches destabilized the region so now what?

Spin- actions don't matter only appearances.

If Zero does anything in Libya it will either be a quick publicity stunt or an even bigger disaster than Somalia was- hope fully he's smart enough to know that (but I'm not holding my breath).

[old Grump]

Other countries sent warships to get their people out, we hired a ferry. Does that give you an idea of where el Presidente el Muslimo stands. I ain't saying no more about it.

[Warthogg]

Nope.......sadly we don't have the money or the man power for Libya

Or the will.



Wart

[Warthogg]

We have no business sending troops to afrika for any reason. chris3

We will send troops into Africa but not now.


Wart

[Meat-Hook]

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/africaandindianocean/libya/8353559/Libya-West-ready-to-use-force-against-Col-Gaddafi-amid-chemical-weapon-fears.html

The Pentagon is believed to be considering moving a US aircraft carrier, the USS Enterprise, from the Red Sea into the Mediterranean to take up a position off Libya. The USS Kearsage, an amphibious assault ship, could also be redeployed. “We’re repositioning forces to provide for flexibility once decisions are made,” said a Pentagon spokesman.

[Oswald Bastable]

all day Friday, I watched Wolf Blitzer run his mouth about Libya. What he kept saying over and over again was:,..........."Weapons of Mass Destruction,......weapons of Mass destuction". Wolf,....and CNN, throughout the day.

"they are KILLING, civilians in Libya.!!!!

Hes got 10 Tons of Mustard Gas!!!!!!

Hmmm, where have we heard the weapons of mass destruction stuff before??

Funny how it's all good with libs as long as they're mouthing it. Where's GW when you need him... :)

[yankeedog]

will the U.S. invade Libya??
I don't think they call it that anymore.

[MOP]

I'm hoping the next regime is going to be friendly to the US, and that they would buy millions



of M4(s) and M16(s) with their oil money.

[Dr_Scholl]

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/africaandindianocean/libya/8353559/Libya-West-ready-to-use-force-against-Col-Gaddafi-amid-chemical-weapon-fears.html

The Pentagon is believed to be considering moving a US aircraft carrier, the USS Enterprise, from the Red Sea into the Mediterranean to take up a position off Libya. The USS Kearsage, an amphibious assault ship, could also be redeployed. “We’re repositioning forces to provide for flexibility once decisions are made,” said a Pentagon spokesman.

Just in case that nutjob tries to use the Air Force against the protesters again. Our F/A 18 Hornets and Super Hornets would make short work of any planes in their inventory.

[Solidus-snake]

We need to mind our own damn business.

We're already playing world policeman with about the entire frikkin middle east, let them solve their own problems.

[swampdragon]

We need to mind our own damn business.

We're already playing world policeman with about the entire frikkin middle east, let them solve their own problems.

This ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ 100%

[00RedZX-6R]

We need to mind our own damn business.

We're already playing world policeman with about the entire frikkin middle east, let them solve their own problems.

I tend to agree except for the fact that we need to make sure it doesn't become a breading ground for terrorism. It is alot easier to change the oil in your car than rebuild the motor.

It may be wiseto put a little effort in up front, than wait till it is a cesspool and try and clean it up then.

Also, the instability effects the worldwide price of oil. This can affect our econmoy.

I don't have the solutions. I just know that it is better to try and fix a small problem than a big one.

[swampdragon]

I tend to agree except for the fact that we need to make sure it doesn't become a breading ground for terrorism. It is alot easier to change the oil in your car than rebuild the motor.

It may be wiseto put a little effort in up front, than wait till it is a cesspool and try and clean it up then.

Also, the instability effects the worldwide price of oil. This can affect our econmoy.

I don't have the solutions. I just know that it is better to try and fix a small problem than a big one.

So you're saying that invading Libya would only be a "small" problem?
Maybe I'm not understanding.

[HDR]

Nope.......sadly we don't have the money or the man power for Libya

Not for nation building; however, we could take him out same as Noriega in Panama. My guess is there are options; if 0bama has the stones.

0bama and having enough stones in the same sentence? :lool:

[Solidus-snake]

So you're saying that invading Libya would only be a "small" problem?
Maybe I'm not understanding.

^^ This.

I don't see invading LIbya as any smaller a problem than invading Iraq was, and you see how that's STILL going.

[Warthogg]

We need to mind our own damn business.

We're already playing world policeman with about the entire frikkin middle east, let them solve their own problems.

We're already playing world policeman with about the entire frikkin middle east, let Israel solve their own problems.



Wart

[HDR]

We need to mind our own damn business.

We're already playing world policeman with about the entire frikkin middle east, let them solve their own problems.

Exactly.

However, 0bama destabilized the whole damn region with his excuse for diplomacy with Egypt. Which is what starts big wars.

[Solidus-snake]

Exactly.

However, 0bama destabilized the whole damn region with his excuse for diplomacy with Egypt. Which is what starts big wars.

I'd tell em they could HAVE the motherfucker, that he is not a correct representation of Americas stance on the affair. Frikkin worthless stooge, he's gonna get us in some deep shit if he has his way.

[Warthogg]

^^ This.

I don't see invading LIbya as any smaller a problem than invading Iraq was, and you see how that's STILL going.

Yup....the Iraqis did not want us and the Libyans do not want us.

Afghanistan does not want us,

Pakistan does not trust or want us, Egyptian citizens hate our sorry asses.

Israelis think we are rubes and fools (I agree with the Israeli assessment.)

The population of Saudi Arabia hates our guts.......maybe even more than other countries in the Middle East....if that's possible.

Syria hates us.

Turkey so distrusts us they refused to allow US troops to stage through Turkey on the way to make war on the Iraqis who hate us.

Azerbijan, Turkmenistan, Uzbekistan, Tajikistan, and Kygrystan all loathe and detest the US.

OHHH Jordan, the people of Jordan detest the US for, among many, many reasons, having Jordan torture for the US.

The Palestinians hate the air we breathe and YES boys and girls Lebanon also hates our guys.

The population of Iran likes and admires the US. But we will figure out a way to fuck that up.


Wart

[Warthogg]

However, 0bama destabilized the whole damn region with his excuse for diplomacy with Egypt. Which is what starts big wars.

I don't think so. I think oppressive poverty coupled with a rapid rise in food costs destabilized Egypt.



Wart

[swampdragon]

^^ This.

I don't see invading LIbya as any smaller a problem than invading Iraq was, and you see how that's STILL going.

Exactly.

[L1A1Rocker]

I would have said no way. Bam Bam doesn't have the guts for it and it's none of our business anyway. BUT, this just popped up on Drudge

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704506004576173831133467692.html?m od=WSJ_hp_LEFTTopStories


At a Pentagon briefing, Defense Secretary Robert Gates announced he had ordered to the Mediterranean the USS Ponce and the USS Kearsarge, an amphibious-assault ship thatn typically carries infantrymen and troop-transport helicopters. Those ships currently have 800 marines, in addition 400 U.S.-based Marines will be airlifted to meet the ships. He said the ships would be ready to perform evacuations and humanitarian relief.

Something tells me Bam Bam is going to insert us into this in some sort of half assed way and the consequences are going to be bad.

[T2K]

No, we're not going to invade Libya. But, I said that about Iraq in early 2002 also!

We'll maybe enforce a no-fly zone and land some Marines to evac civilians. But Libyans needs to sort out Libya, and Egyptians need to sort out Egypt. Regimes that really hate us may come to power.

I think the lesson from Afghanistan regarding that type of situation is that threats to the US existing in lawless areas or enemy states need to be monitored and dealt with directly (SF, Drones, Tomahawks, Air Strikes). Invading backwards countries and trying to turn them into modern, functional democracies so that they can prevent islamic radicals from taking root there is an immensely costly ($ and lives and global opinion) undertaking which should be avoided.

[Oswald Bastable]

Something tells me Bam Bam is going to insert us into this in some sort of half assed way and the consequences are going to be bad.

He probably thinks this is his Reaganesque moment...and no doubt all to use in campaign rhetoric for 2012.

[ubersoldate]

We need to mind our own damn business.

We're already playing world policeman with about the entire frikkin middle east, let them solve their own problems.

This.

[Meat-Hook]

Dutch Marines held (hostage) in Libya:

My question is, if they are Marines,..why did they not open fire when 3 men with guns (in a war zone) came at them??
http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/E/EU_NETHERLANDS_LIBYA_MARINES_HELD?SITE=FLTAM&SECTION=HOME

[T2K]

There are 3 Dutch Marines, and they were aircrew in a helicoter. It sounds like there were surrounded by a lot more than three men while they were on the ground. Easy to judge from here, but maybe the situation on the ground was different than you imagine.

[Meat-Hook]

unless new and additional information comes in after this post that changes my mind,..

whether it be sending 1, 3 or 30 Marines into an active war zone unarmed or without back-up is absurd. or was it their "rules of engagement" that forbid them from taking action.

Kinda like when the Brits got taken hostage by the Iranian naval forces a few years ago.

nothing to do with: "easy to judge from here". just common sense.

[chiak47]

@ least provide a no fly zone.
If they want to fight in Libya (rebels vs gov) then let them fight fair.
But then again; do we really have a dog in this fight? :tinfoil:

[Lysander]

Only if the Zionist Joooooooos in Spaaaaaaaace tell us to.

[Ruskiegunlover]

sometimes, this place has as much mis-information as the msm. The LIBERAL, ANTI-JOOOOOO msm.....

[swampdragon]

sometimes, this place has as much mis-information as the msm. The LIBERAL, ANTI-JOOOOOO msm.....

That's true.
Just like people thinking Zionism actually represents Judaism.
Zionists from Spaaaaaaace aren't Jews. They just pretend to be while using the magic -Illudium PU-36 Space Modulator on you.
lol.....

[00RedZX-6R]

So you're saying that invading Libya would only be a "small" problem?
Maybe I'm not understanding.

I am not saying this is a small problem, but I see the problem getting bigger. if nothing is done. I am not sure of the solution. I would think it would be nice to supply the other side with arms, but we have done that before and it never works out so well.

We are screwed either way I think.

[slamfire51]

Why not???
We're in every other fucking country around the world. One more ain't gonna hurt.
We need to keep out of these take overs and pull our troops out of these God forsaken goat fucking rat nests. It's a losing battle, and we're losing.

[Meat-Hook]

U.K. Army placed on 24 hour deployment notice;
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/africaandindianocean/libya/8363012/Libya-British-Army-ready-for-mission-at-24-hours-notice.html

"Sources confirmed that The Black Watch, 3rd Battalion the Royal Regiment of Scotland, had been placed on heightened readiness, prepared to deploy to North Africa at 24 hours’ notice."

[HDR]

25 Feb. Hundreds of US, British and French military advisers have arrived in Cyrenaica, Libya's eastern breakaway province, DEBKAfile's military sources report exclusively. This is the first time America and Europe have intervened militarily in any of the popular upheavals rolling through the Middle East since Tunisia's Jasmine Revolution in early January. The advisers, including intelligence officers, were dropped from warships and missile boats at the coastal towns of Benghazi and Tobruk Thursday

According to Debka there are a couple of hundred US, UK, and French Spec Ops advisers there. SF, SAS, and COS are the top of the food chain.
Even if their involvement is limited to advice only there is a huge difference between having the tools and knowing where to locate and how to apply the tools.

[Warthogg]

We need to keep out of these take overs and pull our troops out of these God forsaken goat fucking rat nests. It's a losing battle, and we're losing.


Yup....beginning with Afghanistan. I am sick at heart as I see the best America has to offer killed in these wars we will NOT WIN.


Wart

[Warthogg]

DEBKAfile's military sources report exclusively...........

According to Debka............




Debka.......YouTube................YouTube........ .Debka.

Now there is a difficult choice.


Wart

[Warthogg]

@ least provide a no fly zone.
:

Would take TWO carrier groups.


Wart

[Warthogg]

I am not saying this is a small problem,


but I see the problem getting bigger. if nothing is done.

I am not sure of the solution.

We are screwed either way I think.


I am not saying this is a small problem,

Agree is not a small problem but a relatively small part of a much larger problem.


but I see the problem getting bigger. if nothing is done.

The problem will get bigger and we are far past the time when anything can be done.


I am not sure of the solution.

Since 1967 the US has subverted US interests in the Middle East to protect Israel. For the US there is now no solution.

We have paid dictators to suppress their populations. That day is ending. Just wait until the Arabians rise up. Today the Saudis banned protests. Rots of ruck making that little edict stick.


We are screwed either way I think.

Yes and deservedly so. Another thing for which we can thank our spineless congressional creatures. AIPAC terrifies congress far more than the US population.


Wart

[HDR]

Debka.......YouTube................YouTube........ .Debka.

Now there is a difficult choice.


Wart

As you must read Debka You-Tube is mandatory for you.

:lool:

[Warthogg]

As you must read Debka You-Tube is mandatory for you.

:lool:

So you recommend both huh......OK.



Wart

[HDR]

So you recommend both huh......OK.



Wart

Are you insinuating I can do either? :lool:

Debka seems to put up ME news before most sources especially our own sure I read their newsletter. You-Tube is great for entertainment and there are a lot of how to do type videos. You probably prefer Al-Jazeera's flavor.

[swampdragon]

Since 1967 the US has subverted US interests in the Middle East to protect Israel. For the US there is now no solution.

Wart

This is true...and Youtube didn't even exist yet then.

[swampdragon]

So you recommend both huh......OK.



Wart

Pay no attention Wart.
If soldiers in Afghanistan or Iraq post footage on You-tube, then it's REAL.
But if anybody else does, then it's fake.
Stuff from FOX news, the History Channel, Discovery, you know....that stuff is all FAKE!
Everybody knows it's OK to blame photo-bucket when you see a pic you don't like too...
:coffee:

[Lysander]

the History Channel, Discovery, you know....that stuff is all FAKE!
Everybody knows it's OK to blame photo-bucket when you see a pic you don't like too...
:coffee:


Actually, most of the shit posted by both Discovery and the History Channel is so innaccurate these days as to move both squarely into the "Tabloid" category. They lost most of their credibility about the time they started airing "The Lost Sex Secrets of Hitler's Satanic Transvestite Bodyguards"

[swampdragon]

Actually, most of the shit posted by both Discovery and the History Channel is so innaccurate these days as to move both squarely into the "Tabloid" category. They lost most of their credibility about the time they started airing "The Lost Sex Secrets of Hitler's Satanic Transvestite Bodyguards"

That's what I'm saying....
Just what "is" considered a credible source these days?
You can't point your finger at one source these days and laugh...while accepting another just as potentially flawed source and say it's all true.

[Lysander]

That's what I'm saying....
Just what "is" considered a credible source these days?
You can't point your finger at one source these days and laugh...while accepting another just as potentially flawed source and say it's all true.

Depends on the source. I stick to primary sources for just this reason, that and secondary that are independently verifiable. Most of the stuff you posted is third and forth hand, and even the primary material you've posted is mostly taken out of context.

[chiak47]

Would take TWO carrier groups.
Wart

Which I'm sure there are a few in the neighborhood along with all the necessary assets in which the mission might need.


For what it's worth....
Looks as if the USS Kearsarge, USS Ponce and the CSG12 which consists of the Enterprise, the guided-missile cruiser USS Leyte Gulf (CG 55), the guided-missile destroyers USS Bulkeley (DDG 84), USS Barry (DDG 52) and USS Mason (DDG 87), USNS Arctic (T-AOE 8), Carrier Air Wing 1 and Destroyer Squadron 2 are in the AO.

kearsarge
http://www.kearsarge.navy.mil/Site%20Images/100428-N-1348B-516.jpg

Ponce
http://www.onlineusanews.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/03/USS-Ponce-United-States-Navy-Ship.gif

USS Leyte Gulf
http://cdn.wn.com/pd/c8/31/2f54dbe89815f6f117be514f5f0d_grande.jpg

USS Bulkeley
http://www.navytimes.com/xml/news/2008/02/navy_nassuadeploying_080218w/080218_Bulkeley_800.JPG

USS Barry
http://www.navsource.org/archives/05/0593301.jpg

USS Mason
http://encasement.com/site/uploads/images/catalog_src/141-U-S-Navy-Destroyer-USS-Mason-DDG-87_src_1.jpg

USNS Arctic
http://www.msc.navy.mil/inventory/pics/arctic.jpg

USS Enterprise
http://content.answcdn.com/main/content/img/getty/4/8/678648.jpg


CVW-1 consists of 8 Squadrons


VFA-11 Strike Fighter Squadron 11 Red Rippers F/A-18F Super Hornets

VFA-136 Strike Fighter Squadron 136 Knighthawks F/A-18E Super Hornets

VFA-211 Strike Fighter Squadron 211 Fighting Checkmates F/A-18F Super Hornets

VMFA-251 Marine Fighter Attack Squadron 251 Thunderbolts F/A-18 Hornets

VAW-123 Carrier Airborne Early Warning Squadron 123 Screwtops E-2C Hawkeyes

VAQ-137 Carrier Tactical Electronic Warfare Squadron 137 Rooks EA-6B Prowlers

VRC-40 Fleet Logistics Support Squadron 40 Det. 2 Rawhides C-2A Greyhounds

HS-11 Helicopter Anti-submarine Squadron 11 Dragon Slayers SH-60F Seahawks








Here is the Libyan airforce...Looks dated

Dassault Mirage F1 France Multi role fighter Mirage F1BD/ED 0 (2 in Malta) Quantity of 32 delivered in the seventies, most of them have disappeared. Some are based at Gamal Abdul El Nasser Air Base, south of Tobruk. In 2007, Dassault Aviation was awarded a contract to put 12 remaining airframes back into flying condition. Only four have been refitted.

Two were flown to Malta on 21 February 2011 by pilots who, after being instructed to bomb protesters, chose instead to apply for asylum.

One shot down on 3 March 2011.[Quantity of 10]

It is believed that only two remain in Libya - they are two-seat versions used for training among other tasks. One more is reported to have crashed into the Gulf of Sirte on 23 February 2011, after the pilot ejected from the plane.

Mikoyan-Gurevich MiG-21 Soviet Union Trainer/interceptor Quantity of 25 Most are grounded

Mikoyan-Gurevich MiG-23 Soviet Union Ground attack/interceptor/trainer

MiG-23BN/MS/ML/UB Quantity of 124 Most are grounded. some reported captured by rebels in air bases in Benghazi and Tubruk, February 2011.[citation needed]

Sukhoi Su-22 Soviet Union Ground attack Sukhoi

Su-22M3/UM-3K Quantity of 39 One lost on 23 February 2011 as the crew of two refused to follow an order to attack protesters and ejected out of their plane, which crashed near Ajdabiya, 100 miles west of Benghazi.[11]

Sukhoi Su-24 Soviet Union Long range bomber

Sukhoi Su-24MK Quantity of 2 One lost in a fire,
One reported to have been shot down outside Ra's Lanuf on 5 March 2011 by anti-Gaddafi rebels.[12]

Soko J-21 Jastreb Yugoslavia Light ground attack Quantity of 13

Aero L-39ZO Albatros Czechoslovakia Light attack/trainer 110

Aermacchi SF-260WL Italy Basic trainer Quantity of 20

Soko G-2 Galeb Yugoslavia Light attack/trainer Quantity of 116

Yakovlev Yak-130 Russia Jet trainer Quantity of 6 On order (2010)

Dassault Falcon 20 France Light transport Quantity of 3

Antonov An-26 Soviet Union Medium transport Quantity of 10

Gulfstream II USA Light transport Quantity of 1

Dassault Falcon 50 France Light transport Quantity of 1

Ilyushin Il-76 Soviet Union Heavy transport Quantity of 17

Let L-410 Turbolet Czechoslovakia Light utility transport Quantity of 15

Lockheed C-130H Hercules USA Heavy transport Quantity of 10

Antonov An-124 Soviet Union Heavy transport Quantity of 2

Ilyushin Il-78 Soviet Union Air to air refueller Quantity of 4

Mil Mi-24 Hind Russia Heavy attack helicopter Quantity of 38 Three capured by Chadian rebels in the 80s and sent to France and US for evaluation. Some source considers Mi-35; anyway, #853 destroyed by fire on the ground on 23 Feb 2011 or days before. Mi-24 shot down by anti-Gaddafi rebels in Misrata, 28 Feb 2011.

Mil Mi-14 Russia Medium utility helicopter Quantity of 12

Bell 206 JetRanger USA Training helicopter Quantity of 4

Bell 212 Twin Huey USA Light transport helicopter Quantity of 2 Delivered from Italy

Boeing CH-47 Chinook USA Heavy transport helicopter Quantity of 8 Delivered from Italy

Mil Mi-8 Hip Russia Medium transport helicopter Quantity of 25

Mil Mi-17 Russia Medium transport helicopter Status unknown

Lavochkin SA-2 Soviet Union Air defense SAM Quantity of 88 At least 2 have been reported captured by anti-government protesters and defected military units in Tobruk.

Isayev SA-3 Soviet Union Air defense SAM Quantity of 10

SA-6 Soviet Union Air defense SAM Quantity of 43

[swampdragon]

Depends on the source. I stick to primary sources for just this reason, that and secondary that are independently verifiable. Most of the stuff you posted is third and forth hand, and even the primary material you've posted is mostly taken out of context.

What stuff I posted?
Please give an example.
What exactly are you calling a "primary" credible source?
That's is VERY vague indeed.

[Lysander]

What stuff I posted?
Please give an example.
What exactly are you calling a "primary" credible source?
That's is VERY vague indeed.

"Vague"? Actually, no it's not. I was rather specific, as a matter of fact. If you don't know the difference between primary, secondary, and tertiary sources, there really is no point in having a serious discussion with you. It's elementary (http://www-public.jcu.edu.au/libcomp/resources/era/JCUPRD_030412), and essential.

For instance, in your last thread about Israel, you posted quotes from the report on the attack on the USS Liberty. The problem is, those quotes were cherry picked to represent what the original author wanted to express. You didn't actually read the report on the USS Liberty, or even the actual interviews quoted, you relied on other sources for those. Essentially, you had no idea what you were posting beyond what the original author(s) wanted you to know.

It's like on the old forum when 1TOM and Krapski would post all these examples of "case law" showing that the income tax was invalid. Did they ever actually read the cases cited? No. Did they even check if some of those cases even existed? Nope. Instead they relied on the work of others reposting the work of others. It took me 20 minutes to go back and find that half the cases they cited didn't even exist and the other half didn't even have any relevance on the conversation.

[swampdragon]

"Vague"? Actually, no it's not. I was rather specific, as a matter of fact. If you don't know the difference between primary, secondary, and tertiary sources, there really is no point in having a serious discussion with you. It's elementary (http://www-public.jcu.edu.au/libcomp/resources/era/JCUPRD_030412), and essential.

For instance, in your last thread about Israel, you posted quotes from the report on the attack on the USS Liberty. The problem is, those quotes were cherry picked to represent want the original author wanted to express. You didn't actually read the report on the USS Liberty, or even the actual interviews quoted, you relied on other sources for those. Essentially, you had no idea what you were posting beyond what the original author(s) wanted you to know.

It's like on the old forum when 1TOM and Krapski would post all these examples of "case law" showing that the income tax was invalid. Did they ever actually read the cases cited? No. Did they even check if some of those cases even existed? Nope. Instead they relied on the work of others reposting the work of others. It took me 20 minutes to go back and find that half the cases they cited didn't even exist and the other half didn't even have any relevance on the conversation.

So once again, you have not actually answered the question.
What is your "primary" source?
FOX, CNN, CBS, MSNBC, PBS, the guy who lives around the corner from you that you meet at the bar on Friday nights?

You can't have a serious discussion with me?
I'm not the one avoiding these questions.
You are Skippy.

Likewise, as far as the USS Liberty thing...I posted actual interviews of the vets themselves, as well as a link to their organization, that were actually on the ship at the time!
I'd say that's a pretty "primary" source.
Wouldn't you?
Or are you saying they don't know anything about it compared to whatever source "you" deem primary?
...Even though you still have not named one....

You do realize that the entire investigation (or lack of one I should say) was ran by McCain Senior right? Yep that's right. The dad of Sen John McCain.
It concluded in less than a week just to sweep everything under the rug.

[HDR]

What stuff I posted?
Please give an example.

Swampy even for you that was lame. Either you are dense, incredibly dull witted or purposely blind. In any case pretty soon Lysander will say you aren't worth it same as Kadmos and the others.


What exactly are you calling a "primary" credible source?
That's is VERY vague indeed.

Only for you was there anything vague about Lysander's post.


"Vague"? Actually, no it's not. I was rather specific, as a matter of fact. If you don't know the difference between primary, secondary, and tertiary sources, there really is no point in having a serious discussion with you. It's elementary (http://www-public.jcu.edu.au/libcomp/resources/era/JCUPRD_030412), and essential.


Vague only because he doesn't want to deal with it. Lysander, he just keeps talking trying to play innocent. The who me, show me where then misses it after you do point it out is an old scam.



"For instance, in your last thread about Israel, you posted quotes from the report on the attack on the USS Liberty. The problem is, those quotes were cherry picked to represent what the original author wanted to express. You didn't actually read the report on the USS Liberty, or even the actual interviews quoted, you relied on other sources for those. Essentially, you had no idea what you were posting beyond what the original author(s) wanted you to know.

Swampy spun it into what he wanted it to say. The problem is you read it and can't find what Swampy claims was there. However, that doesn't matter; at least not to Swampy.


"didn't even have any relevance on the conversation.

Swampy is good at quoting the irrelevant. :lool:

[Lysander]

Nice to see I wasted my time.

Congrats Swamp, you win at the internets.

[swampdragon]

Swampy even for you that was lame. Either you are dense, incredibly dull witted or purposely blind. In any case pretty soon Lysander will say you aren't worth it same as Kadmos and the others.



Only for you was there anything vague about Lysander's post.



Vague only because he doesn't want to deal with it. Lysander, he just keeps talking trying to play innocent. The who me, show me where then misses it after you do point it out is an old scam.




Swampy spun it into what he wanted it to say. The problem is you read it and can't find what Swampy claims was there. However, that doesn't matter; at least not to Swampy.



Swampy is good at quoting the irrelevant. :lool:

Irrelevant?

Translation: All things you don't personally agree with with is irrelevant.

As an x-1SG, I am very disappointed in you to say the least.
Never in my life would I ever think you'd ever side with Israel and choose politics over the actual testimony of our actual Vets who were on that ship and watched their own crew die for no reason.
And you have the nerve to attack "my" thought processes?
You have to be kidding me.

"Swampy" didn't spin a damn thing at all.
Worse yet, you know it.
So the only thing you could come up with was to attack You-Tube itself as a source...even though you already know You-Tube itself is not a source to begin with. It's just a storage site.
You-Tube doesn't make the FOX news either...but you can still find it there.

Ever heard of LCDR Ennes?
He was on the Liberty the day Israel attacked it on purpose while knowing it was an American ship.
Guess what?
You-Tube didn't "make" this video either.
But by all means....DON'T watch this!
I would not want it ever said that you actually support our own troops.
That would go against your very stance as a Swampdragon bashing, Israeli Zionist supporting, You-Tube hater.....

Please feel free to disprove any of my statements.
I'll be waiting for you...and Lysander too...
Israel is not one of our allies, and never has been...




http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t-ZJEhDfono




Dean Rusk, U.S. Secretary of State at the time of the incident, wrote:

I was never satisfied with the Israeli explanation. Their sustained attack to disable and sink Liberty precluded an assault by accident or some trigger-happy local commander. Through diplomatic channels we refused to accept their explanations. I didn't believe them then, and I don't believe them to this day. The attack was outrageous.[49]

Retired naval Lieutenant Commander James Ennes, a junior officer (and off-going Officer of the Deck) on Liberty's bridge at the time of the attack, authored a book titled Assault on the Liberty (Random House, 1980; Ballantine Books 1986; Reintree Press 2004) describing the incident during the Six Day War in June 1967 and claiming, among other things, it was deliberate. Ennes and Joe Meadors, another survivor of the attack, run a website[50] about the incident. Meadors states that the classification of the attack as deliberate is the official policy of the USS Liberty Veterans Association,[51] to which survivors and other former crew members belong. Other survivors run several additional websites. Citing Ennes's book, Lenczowski notes: Liberty's personnel received firm orders not to say anything to anybody about the attack, and the naval inquiry was conducted in such a way as to earn it the name of "coverup".[39]

In 2002, Captain Ward Boston, JAGC, U.S. Navy, senior counsel for the Court of Inquiry, claimed that the Court of Inquiry's findings were intended to cover up what was a deliberate attack by Israel on a ship it knew to be American. In 2004, in response to the publication of Jay Cristol’s book The Liberty Incident, which Boston claimed was an "insidious attempt to whitewash the facts" he prepared and signed an affidavit[52] in which he claimed that Admiral Kidd had told him that the government ordered Kidd to falsely report that the attack was a mistake, and that he and Kidd both believed the attack was deliberate. On the issue Boston wrote, in part:

The evidence was clear. Both Admiral Kidd and I believed with certainty that this attack, which killed 34 American sailors and injured 172 others, was a deliberate effort to sink an American ship and murder its entire crew. Each evening, after hearing testimony all day, we often spoke our private thoughts concerning what we had seen and heard. I recall Admiral Kidd repeatedly referring to the Israeli forces responsible for the attack as 'murderous bastards.' It was our shared belief, based on the documentary evidence and testimony we received first hand, that the Israeli attack was planned and deliberate, and could not possibly have been an accident.

[Guns Network Staff]

What stuff I posted?
Please give an example.
What exactly are you calling a "primary" credible source?
That's is VERY vague indeed.

Can anyone say SELECTIVE MEMORY....

[slamfire51]

Swampy, Don't start another Israeli discussion in a thread on Libya.
You have one in the basement that needs attention.
Catch my drift????

[chiak47]

The evidence was clear. Both Admiral Kidd and I believed with certainty that this attack, which killed 34 American sailors and injured 172 others, was a deliberate effort to sink an American ship and murder its entire crew. .

Answer this...Why were the men of the Liberty ordered to keep their mouths shut but when the USS Stark was hit by Iraq in the 80's the men of that ship were free to speak of the incident?

Also Johnson was to have said to the commander of the US Sixth Fleet....“I want that goddamned ship going to the bottom. No help, recall the Wings”
He did not want to embarrass a friendly nation....

[Lysander]

Answer this...Why were the men of the Liberty ordered to keep their mouths shut but when the USS Stark was hit by Iraq in the 80's the men of that ship were free to speak of the incident?

Also Johnson was to have said to the commander of the US Sixth Fleet....“I want that goddamned ship going to the bottom. No help, recall the Wings”
He did not want to embarrass a friendly nation....

Proof behind this assertion, please.

As far as the "...did not want to embarrass a friendly nation..." statement, would you not call a friendly fire incident embarrassing?

[HDR]

Irrelevant?

Translation: All things you don't personally agree with with is irrelevant.

As you seem to be the dork that everyone agrees to disagree with you need to do some translating on yourself.

Sort of a self help seminar to realize that when "Boston claimed" it isn't a fact it is only a claim. Same with "believed with certainty" again not factual. Point is, you can't prove what you are saying unless claims and believes are accepted as gospel and they aren't.

It seems that anyone who disagrees with you is wrong; no matter how many times they and others prove you wrong. Then you show your ass for hours.


Can anyone say SELECTIVE MEMORY....

Very selective.

[swampdragon]

Swampy, Don't start another Israeli discussion in a thread on Libya.
You have one in the basement that needs attention.
Catch my drift????


Here's an idea for you...

How about you re-read this thread and recognize that LYSANDER started this in post #61 and then apologize to me for your inaccurate statements.
Catch my drift?

If you look back, "I'M" the one who originally said invading Libya would not be a "minor" problem. I'm not the one who brought up other threads nor Israel, nor anything else from other threads.

Care to retract now?
Or have you just decided to jump on the mess with Swampy band wagon?

[swampdragon]

Answer this...Why were the men of the Liberty ordered to keep their mouths shut but when the USS Stark was hit by Iraq in the 80's the men of that ship were free to speak of the incident?

Also Johnson was to have said to the commander of the US Sixth Fleet....“I want that goddamned ship going to the bottom. No help, recall the Wings”
He did not want to embarrass a friendly nation....

The answer is simple.
AIPAC has just as much power within the American government as it does in Israel.
Screw what all the survivors of the Liberty said.
It's politics man.
And Johnson should have been hung too.

[swampdragon]

As you seem to be the dork that everyone agrees to disagree with you need to do some translating on yourself.

Sort of a self help seminar to realize that when "Boston claimed" it isn't a fact it is only a claim. Same with "believed with certainty" again not factual. Point is, you can't prove what you are saying unless claims and believes are accepted as gospel and they aren't.

It seems that anyone who disagrees with you is wrong; no matter how many times they and others prove you wrong. Then you show your ass for hours.



Very selective.


But you're just fine with going with "Israel said...blah blah blah" instead of listening to the men on the ship who were actually there?
You are disgraceful HDR.
I never thought I'd live to see the day.
Fuck our Vets. They are liars because it was on You-Tube. Long live AIPAC!
You're a traitor and don't even realize it.
Or worse yet, you DO realize it but aren't man enough to admit you made a mistake.
Sad.
Pathetic even...

[swampdragon]

Can anyone say SELECTIVE MEMORY....


And once again..."WHAT" do you consider a primary source if video recorded interviews of survivors who were ON THE SHIP itself isn't good enough for you?
Inquiring minds want to know.....
As far as I know, Sesame Street never did an episode about it.

[slamfire51]

Here's an idea for you...

How about you re-read this thread and recognize that LYSANDER started this in post #61 and then apologize to me for your inaccurate statements.
Catch my drift?

If you look back, "I'M" the one who originally said invading Libya would not be a "minor" problem. I'm not the one who brought up other threads nor Israel, nor anything else from other threads.

Care to retract now?
Or have you just decided to jump on the mess with Swampy band wagon?

I see no need to retract anything.
I join no bandwagon. The bandwagon may be a good place for you.

Post #61 does not refer to Israel what so ever.
It is mentioned in post #64 as a reference to your sources about the Liberty.
You continue posting stuff about the Liberty that has already been posted and posted and posted, and both sides have expressed their opinions. Kind of a dead subject now, don't you think?

Stay on the Libya subject, or head to the basement to post on the Israeli thread.

[Lysander]

Here's an idea for you...

How about you re-read this thread and recognize that LYSANDER started this in post #61 and then apologize to me for your inaccurate statements.
Catch my drift?

If you look back, "I'M" the one who originally said invading Libya would not be a "minor" problem. I'm not the one who brought up other threads nor Israel, nor anything else from other threads.

Care to retract now?
Or have you just decided to jump on the mess with Swampy band wagon?

Stop playing the Krupski Card, and how on Earth did Post #61, asking you about sources, allow you to launch into another anti-Israel rant?

Just be honest; you're looking for any excuse to go off half cocked and make an ass out of yourself.

[Warthogg]

Answer this...Why were the men of the Liberty ordered to keep their mouths shut but when the USS Stark was hit by Iraq in the 80's the men of that ship were free to speak of the incident?

Also Johnson was to have said to the commander of the US Sixth Fleet....“I want that goddamned ship going to the bottom. No help, recall the Wings”
He did not want to embarrass a friendly nation....

Admiral McCain, the senator's father, was a part of the cover-up.


Wart

[swampdragon]

Proof behind this assertion, please.

As far as the "...did not want to embarrass a friendly nation..." statement, would you not call a friendly fire incident embarrassing?

There is nothing friendly about friendly fire.
And it wasn't an accident.
It was a deliberate attack on an American ship already known for hours to be American.
Israeli pilots even radioed in that it was an American ship...and they were instructed to keep attacking anyways.
This was well before the torpedo boats even arrived on scene.
Wake up Dude!

[swampdragon]

I see no need to retract anything.
I join no bandwagon. The bandwagon may be a good place for you.

Post #61 does not refer to Israel what so ever.
It is mentioned in post #64 as a reference to your sources about the Liberty.
You continue posting stuff about the Liberty that has already been posted and posted and posted, and both sides have expressed their opinions. Kind of a dead subject now, don't you think?



Stay on the Libya subject, or head to the basement to post on the Israeli thread.


.... Most of the stuff you posted is third and forth hand, and even the primary material you've posted is mostly taken out of context.

Guess what?
I didn't post a god damn thing in this thread from ANY source before Lysander shot his mouth off.
What do you think he was referring to?
Please show me ANYTHING in this thread that I posted from ANY source prior to Lysander's comments?

You may not "see" a need to retract.
But it surely DOES exist none the less.
I started off here talking about Libya just like everybody else.
And why is it that even though other people here are now talking about the Liberty too..."I" am the only one you are harassing?
HUH?
Can you fuckin' answer ANY of that at all?

[swampdragon]

Only if the Zionist Joooooooos in Spaaaaaaaace tell us to.


sometimes, this place has as much mis-information as the msm. The LIBERAL, ANTI-JOOOOOO msm.....

What does ANY of this have to do with Libya Slamfire?
I'm still waiting for you to explain why you are singling me out when these posts all came before mine?
Well?

[slamfire51]

What does ANY of this have to do with Libya Slamfire?
I'm still waiting for you to explain why you are singling me out when these posts all came before mine?
Well?

First of all, the OP'er never envisioned the thread ending up like this.

I see nothing about the Israeli attacks on the ship Liberty in those quotes.

And the fore mentioned posts by Lysander was questioning the sources you posted. You continued to post references about the Liberty, which, as I said, had been mentioned by YOU many times in another thread.
Time to leave the Israeli subject alone..... PERIOD.

Get back on the Libya topic.

[swampdragon]

Admiral McCain, the senator's father, was a part of the cover-up.


Wart

Yep. I mentioned that too.
Sieg Heil! Long live AIPAC!
Fuck American sailors...We can always recruit more later.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v648/Swampdragon/ed982259.jpg

[slamfire51]

The thread is open.
I will let Admin handle any other problems.