Just Ordered My AR Kit

[ltorlo64]

Ordered a 20" A2 kit from Del Ton. I told a guy at work about what I was doing and he ordered 16" M4 kit last week. He doesn't have his lower yet, but he will in the next week or so. Now I have to wait for it to arrive. At least I shoudn't have to wait almost 6 months like I did for my Garand from CMP.

[pastfinder]

I'm going to be ordering my Del-Ton kit soon (heck, maybe tomorrow). At this point I'm going with the lightweight kit with a chrome-lined barrel. One question I have for the board is to go with either the A2 stock or the M4 stock. Which is lighter?

[ltorlo64]

I would expect the M4 to be lighter. I wanted a more retro looking rifle so I went with the A2.

[matshock]

I would expect the M4 to be lighter. I wanted a more retro looking rifle so I went with the A2.

+1 M4 stock is lighter. If you're (pastfinder) going with the carbine gas system you should use a carbine stock and carbine buffer/spring. The A2 rifle stock and rifle spring/buffer *might* have too much resistance for a carbine gas system.

[AK-J]

+1 M4 stock is lighter. If you're (pastfinder) going with the carbine gas system you should use a carbine stock and carbine buffer/spring. The A2 rifle stock and rifle spring/buffer *might* have too much resistance for a carbine gas system.

I think the shorter buffer/spring of the carbine stock are due to the shorter buffer tube than resistance. I remember there being alot of carbine length gas systems w/ A2 rifles stocks during the AWB. And many folks put carbine stocks (w/ the accompanying buffer and spring) on full length rifles that work just fine.

[matshock]

I think the shorter buffer/spring of the carbine stock are due to the shorter buffer tube than resistance. I remember there being alot of carbine length gas systems w/ A2 rifles stocks during the AWB. And many folks put carbine stocks (w/ the accompanying buffer and spring) on full length rifles that work just fine.

The A2 buffer is certainly much heavier than a carbine buffer so you're playing games with bolt velocity vs. bolt energy. You can mix the parts- like using a rifle spring with a carbine buffer in an A2 stock, but there will certainly be a real difference in how they behave. With brand new parts- A2 tube, A2 buffer, rifle spring and a carbine upper the bolt speed might end up being low. For a first time AR build it may be better to just stick to the stock designs and enjoy shooting it.

[ltorlo64]

The A2 buffer is certainly much heavier than a carbine buffer so you're playing games with bolt velocity vs. bolt energy. You can mix the parts- like using a rifle spring with a carbine buffer in an A2 stock, but there will certainly be a real difference in how they behave. With brand new parts- A2 tube, A2 buffer, rifle spring and a carbine upper the bolt speed might end up being low. For a first time AR build it may be better to just stick to the stock designs and enjoy shooting it.

That is my feelings, too. That is why I bought a complete kit instead of figuring out what parts to buy piece meal.

[AK-J]

The A2 buffer is certainly much heavier than a carbine buffer so you're playing games with bolt velocity vs. bolt energy. You can mix the parts- like using a rifle spring with a carbine buffer in an A2 stock, but there will certainly be a real difference in how they behave. With brand new parts- A2 tube, A2 buffer, rifle spring and a carbine upper the bolt speed might end up being low. For a first time AR build it may be better to just stick to the stock designs and enjoy shooting it.

I think you're making this more complicated than it really is. While you certainly don't want to mix and match carbine/rifle buffers, buffer tubes and buffer springs; as long as you are using the correct buffer and spring for the type of stock used, everything is okay. The A1/A2 buffer is heavier than a carbine buffer, but is the spring rate of the rifle spring greater than the carbine spring? I think you'll find that even though the carbine spring is shorter, it has a higher spring rate than the rifle spring.

If it didn't work like that, then why are there ARs that have full length rifle gas systems w/ M4 stocks and ARs with carbine length gas systems w/ A2 stocks? Why can you go on Del-ton's website and order a 16" carbine or mid-length kit w/ a A2 stock, and order a 20" rifle kit w/ a M4 stock? If it was really as complicated as you make it sound like, would it be as easy an option as it is?

The gas system is usually tuned (by the diameter of the gas port leading to the gas block) for the length of the gas tube and the length of the barrel. Usually if there is an issue with the carbine length gas systems, it is that they unlock too violently. That is why there is a market for heavier buffers and springs for the carbine length gas system equipped guns.

The bottom line is, the length of the gas system has no baring on the stock one chooses. Just make sure you're using the appropriate buffer and spring for your application (IE carbine/M4 stock uses carbine buffer and spring; full length stock uses rifle buffer and spring).

[Schuetzenman]

I'm going to be ordering my Del-Ton kit soon (heck, maybe tomorrow). At this point I'm going with the lightweight kit with a chrome-lined barrel. One question I have for the board is to go with either the A2 stock or the M4 stock. Which is lighter?

Probably not much difference in total weight. Ace makes some really light skeleton type stocks if you want ultra light weight.

[matshock]

I think you're making this more complicated than it really is. While you certainly don't want to mix and match carbine/rifle buffers, buffer tubes and buffer springs; as long as you are using the correct buffer and spring for the type of stock used, everything is okay. The A1/A2 buffer is heavier than a carbine buffer, but is the spring rate of the rifle spring greater than the carbine spring? I think you'll find that even though the carbine spring is shorter, it has a higher spring rate than the rifle spring.

If it didn't work like that, then why are there ARs that have full length rifle gas systems w/ M4 stocks and ARs with carbine length gas systems w/ A2 stocks? Why can you go on Del-ton's website and order a 16" carbine or mid-length kit w/ a A2 stock, and order a 20" rifle kit w/ a M4 stock? If it was really as complicated as you make it sound like, would it be as easy an option as it is?

The gas system is usually tuned (by the diameter of the gas port leading to the gas block) for the length of the gas tube and the length of the barrel. Usually if there is an issue with the carbine length gas systems, it is that they unlock too violently. That is why there is a market for heavier buffers and springs for the carbine length gas system equipped guns.

The bottom line is, the length of the gas system has no baring on the stock one chooses. Just make sure you're using the appropriate buffer and spring for your application (IE carbine/M4 stock uses carbine buffer and spring; full length stock uses rifle buffer and spring).

Ah, OK- and yes over-thinking things IS a tendency of mine.

If anything the carbine upper would be under-utilizing the A2 buffer system's potential for stored energy although not necessarily detrimentally so. I'm not real sure the heavier buffer would help mitigate the fast unlock issue though because as you mentioned the A2 spring isn't under as much tension up against the detent as the carbine spring is.

I do have experience with the bolt bouncing out-of-battery running a rifle upper on a carbine lower with a milspec buffer though. The longer impulse of the rifle system can overcharge the carbine buffer system a bit. I fixed it by removing the buffer detent and letting it ride home with the bolt carrier. Some folks fix it with overweight buffers but I'm cheap. Vltor actually makes a rile-specific telestock kit now:

http://vltor.com/emod-a5.html

[pastfinder]

Haha, yall gave me plenty of info I must say! I ordered my Del-ton 16" chrome-lined lightweight with the M4 stock the other day. Can't wait for it to arrive so I can begin assembly...which will possibly involve other posts.

[AK-J]

Ah, OK- and yes over-thinking things IS a tendency of mine.

If anything the carbine upper would be under-utilizing the A2 buffer system's potential for stored energy although not necessarily detrimentally so. I'm not real sure the heavier buffer would help mitigate the fast unlock issue though because as you mentioned the A2 spring isn't under as much tension up against the detent as the carbine spring is.

I do have experience with the bolt bouncing out-of-battery running a rifle upper on a carbine lower with a milspec buffer though. The longer impulse of the rifle system can overcharge the carbine buffer system a bit. I fixed it by removing the buffer detent and letting it ride home with the bolt carrier. Some folks fix it with overweight buffers but I'm cheap. Vltor actually makes a rile-specific telestock kit now:

http://vltor.com/emod-a5.html

I don't think the issue you experienced was due to a buffer issue, especially from the way you 'fixed' it. Sounds like for whatever reason the buffer wasn't making good contact w/ the bolt carrier when the bolt was fully closed. It most likely was a symptom of something else was out of spec (IE upper or lower receiver, bolt carrier) or the stock wasn't installed correctly.

The buffer and buffer springs main purpose isn't managing recoil, but is to return the bolt carrier back into battery after its full rearward travel.