Will Washington's Failures Lead To Second American Revolution?

[chiak47]

Maybe we can get some politicians who can agree that the USA is too big to fail.
:oh:


http://www.investors.com/NewsAndAnalysis/Article/542171/201007301830/Will-Washingtons-Failures-Lead-To-Second-American-Revolution-.aspx

Will Washington's Failures Lead To Second American Revolution?

The Internet is a large-scale version of the "Committees of Correspondence" that led to the first American Revolution — and with Washington's failings now so obvious and awful, it may lead to another.

People are asking, "Is the government doing us more harm than good? Should we change what it does and the way it does it?"

Pruning the power of government begins with the imperial presidency.

Too many overreaching laws give the president too much discretion to make too many open-ended rules controlling too many aspects of our lives. There's no end to the harm an out-of-control president can do.

Bill Clinton lowered the culture, moral tone and strength of the nation — and left America vulnerable to attack. When it came, George W. Bush stood up for America, albeit sometimes clumsily.

Barack Obama, however, has pulled off the ultimate switcheroo: He's diminishing America from within — so far, successfully.

He may soon bankrupt us and replace our big merit-based capitalist economy with a small government-directed one of his own design.

He is undermining our constitutional traditions: The rule of law and our Anglo-Saxon concepts of private property hang in the balance. Obama may be the most "consequential" president ever.

The Wall Street Journal's steadfast Dorothy Rabinowitz wrote that Barack Obama is "an alien in the White House."

His bullying and offenses against the economy and job creation are so outrageous that CEOs in the Business Roundtable finally mustered the courage to call him "anti-business." Veteran Democrat Sen. Max Baucus blurted out that Obama is engineering the biggest government-forced "redistribution of income" in history.

Fear and uncertainty stalk the land. Fed Chairman Ben Bernanke says America's financial future is "unusually uncertain."

A Wall Street "fear gauge" based on predicted market volatility is flashing long-term panic. New data on the federal budget confirm that record-setting deficits in the $1.4 trillion range are now endemic.

Obama is building an imperium of public debt and crushing taxes, contrary to George Washington's wise farewell admonition: "cherish public credit ... use it as sparingly as possible ... avoiding likewise the accumulation of debt ... bear in mind, that towards the payment of debts there must be Revenue, that to have Revenue there must be taxes; that no taxes can be devised, which are not ... inconvenient and unpleasant ... ."

Opinion polls suggest that in the November mid-term elections, voters will replace the present Democratic majority in Congress with opposition Republicans — but that will not necessarily stop Obama.

[HDR]

"Obama is building an imperium of public debt and crushing taxes,"

0bama has built an imperium of public debt already.

[El Jefe]

I'm about 97% sure it won't.

[swampdragon]

I don't trust anybody in Washington. Republicans or Democrats alike.

As for a Revolution...I doubt it.

I think a more likely scenario would be the collapse of our infrastructure followed by riots, looting, murder, mayhem, mass exodus of people leaving wherever they are and heading someplace else...only to find the grass is not any greener.

[El Jefe]

I don't trust anybody in Washington. Republicans or Democrats alike.

As for a Revolution...I doubt it.

I think a more likely scenario would be the collapse of our infrastructure followed by riots, looting, murder, mayhem, mass exodus of people leaving wherever they are and heading someplace else...only to find the grass is not any greener.

I think it possible that places like LA and Chicago could see unrest like we've seen in Greece in the future.

[mriddick]

The bad thing about the Greece model is as things get worse more people look to the central gov't to fix it, they don't separate into smaller fractions.

[yankeedog]

Will Washington's Failures Lead To Second American Revolution?
Probably not, I have too much to lose to run down the middle of the street screaming "DOWN WITH THE GOVERNMENT" and getting throwed in jail!
Pot will be legal one of these days and its worth waiting for!!!!

[El Jefe]

The bad thing about the Greece model is as things get worse more people look to the central gov't to fix it, they don't separate into smaller fractions.

I'm not sure what you mean exactly, but LA, Chicago, ect, are going to have the same problems Greece is having. Hell, the state of Illinois is borrowing money now to pay employees and fund the retirement payments of past employees. They can't do that for long and when they stop the shit will hit the fan.

[old Grump]

Presidency can't be imperial if congress does its job. Career politicians have abrogated their responsibilities allowing presidents freedom to act that is not in their listed powers in the constitution.

Worse yet they have assumed powers for themselves not envisaged by the founders and its only to foster their own imperial reign by being able to pass laws we have to follow but are exempt from themselves.

Obama and Rangel is just a tiny bit of the corruption in that cess pool. Revolution is in our hands and our best bet is in 94 days and again in November 2012. Keep voting mainstream party and our revolution goes down the proverbial porcelain throne and business as usual till we are invaded by some power with guts, guns and our money. Then it won't be a revolution but a fight for our survival and national identity.

Past time to vote in candidates who really believe in our constitution. All of it not just the selected parts they agree with. I don't care if they are nuttier than a semi full of fruitcakes, it would beat the hell out of a city full of immoral crooks and perverts.

[chiak47]

We can not sustain this debt load and if we continue in this direction then we will fail...
It is that simple.

[Batwing]

I don't trust anybody in Washington. Republicans or Democrats alike.

As for a Revolution...I doubt it.

I think a more likely scenario would be the collapse of our infrastructure followed by riots, looting, murder, mayhem, mass exodus of people leaving wherever they are and heading someplace else...only to find the grass is not any greener.

pretty much how I view it also,anarchy followed by mass migration out of large urban areas looking for food,if this scenario happens it will be real ugly for a looong time

[LAGC]

We have a lot of room to maneuver before this nation goes tits up.

I'm sure if the Democrats don't institute a national sales tax or VAT to tackle the growing deficit, the Republicans will. China won't keep buying our debt forever.

But this nation had a higher percentage of debt-to-GDP ratio after WWII than it has now, and we recovered quite nicely by the 1950s. Of course, FDR wasn't afraid to tax the living fuck out of the rich people, something all politicians are apparently too scared to do now. (Bite the hand that feeds them, I guess.)

[HDR]

I'll take Celente's predictions of food riots and tax rebellion in 2012.


An article in the Washington Times has claimed "Celente's accurate forecasts include the 1987 stock market crash, the collapse of the Soviet Union in 1991, the 1997 Asian currency crash" and "the 2007 subprime mortgage scandal.

His forecasts since 1993 have included predictions about terrorism, economic collapses and war. More recent forecasts involve fascism in the United States, food riots and tax revolts.

Considering his record and what we are seeing; it is difficult to disagree with him.

[Oswald Bastable]

Probably not, I have too much to lose to run down the middle of the street screaming "DOWN WITH THE GOVERNMENT" and getting throwed in jail!
Pot will be legal one of these days and its worth waiting for!!!!

Why am I not surprised that your greatest concern in all of this is whether pot will be legalized or not...

[mriddick]

I'm not sure what you mean exactly, but LA, Chicago, ect, are going to have the same problems Greece is having. Hell, the state of Illinois is borrowing money now to pay employees and fund the retirement payments of past employees. They can't do that for long and when they stop the shit will hit the fan.

What I'm saying is in Europe they tend to look inward for a central gov't to help them, people might not seperate into the keyboard komando's wet dream of us VS them so readily...

[swampdragon]

Why am I not surprised that your greatest concern in all of this is whether pot will be legalized or not...

Everybody being stoned would slow down the motivation of the looters.
However, on the other hand, the theft of junk food would go way up.

[O.S.O.K.]

If things precede down the path to hell in an orderly and incremental fashion, then no, we probably won't see violent revoution.

However, in the real world, things will get fucked up in the process. And people will experience pain and discomfort.

This, will result in violent revolution.

IMHO

[weevil]

Everybody being stoned would slow down the motivation of the looters.
However, on the other hand, the theft of junk food would go way up.




Maybe it'll be like Castro and the rebels in Cuba.

They would launch an attack on a town so they could get a newspaper and read Lil' Abner in the comics.




Only now the rebels would launch an offensive to get some Cheetos.



:D

[American Rage]

Probably not, I have too much to lose to run down the middle of the street screaming "DOWN WITH THE GOVERNMENT" and getting throwed in jail!
Pot will be legal one of these days and its worth waiting for!!!!

Yeah, but how will you feel when everything you had to lose has been taken from you?

Remember, what sparked the Revolution was the government's attempt to take away firearms. However, it was their confiscatory taxes that provided the powder for that spark to ignite.

Rage

[Maser**]

Obama has a plan. It will be good.

[yankeedog]

Yeah, but how will you feel when everything you had to lose has been taken from you?

Remember, what sparked the Revolution was the government's attempt to take away firearms. However, it was their confiscatory taxes that provided the powder for that spark to ignite.

Rage

Well until I feel or really see something being takin away I really don't have a gripe, you know taxes is always an issue but I don't want to pay any so that will always be a losing battle.
I drive around in a 70 Coronet with a semi auto laying right next to me and its all legal to do so whats to gripe about?

[sevlex]

The revolution will be at the ballot box this fall. Unless the Bamster and his Marxist Minions try to stop it. Then it's bullets, molotov cocktails and rope & lamp-posts.:hungio8:

[American Rage]

Well until I feel or really see something being takin away I really don't have a gripe, you know taxes is always an issue but I don't want to pay any so that will always be a losing battle.
I drive around in a 70 Coronet with a semi auto laying right next to me and its all legal to do so whats to gripe about?

Today? Not much. Tomorrow with $8-10 a gallon for that Coronet? Probably quite a bit, especially when that $8-10 is going overseas b/c Obummer won't let us drill here.


Rage

[HDR]

If food riots take place; as everyone needs to eat the trouble will be worse than anything over the Second..

[justinsaneok]

Presidency can't be imperial if congress does its job. Career politicians have abrogated their responsibilities allowing presidents freedom to act that is not in their listed powers in the constitution.

Worse yet they have assumed powers for themselves not envisaged by the founders and its only to foster their own imperial reign by being able to pass laws we have to follow but are exempt from themselves.

Obama and Rangel is just a tiny bit of the corruption in that cess pool. Revolution is in our hands and our best bet is in 94 days and again in November 2012. Keep voting mainstream party and our revolution goes down the proverbial porcelain throne and business as usual till we are invaded by some power with guts, guns and our money. Then it won't be a revolution but a fight for our survival and national identity.

Past time to vote in candidates who really believe in our constitution. All of it not just the selected parts they agree with. I don't care if they are nuttier than a semi full of fruitcakes, it would beat the hell out of a city full of immoral crooks and perverts.

I couldn't of said it any better. I hope everyone takes heed!

[renegadebuck]

Well until I feel or really see something being takin away I really don't have a gripe, you know taxes is always an issue but I don't want to pay any so that will always be a losing battle.
I drive around in a 70 Coronet with a semi auto laying right next to me and its all legal to do so whats to gripe about?

This is exactly what the problem is. It's all about "you", and not what's good for the country. Everyone needs to start thinking the other way. Raise taxes, why? Just cut out some of the spending, then cut some more, and more...before long we can afford our country and our freedom!

[yankeedog]

This is exactly what the problem is. It's all about "you", and not what's good for the country. Everyone needs to start thinking the other way. Raise taxes, why? Just cut out some of the spending, then cut some more, and more...before long we can afford our country and our freedom!

Think about myself?
1: yes
2: cut spending on what?
Welfare, wic, low cost housing, free school meals? Im not for any of this but some others might think you are thinking about yourself by taking away what they are getting.
Well lets see why don't you give up about 50% of your pay and they can use it to clean up inner city Detroit? How about it feeling like helping your fellow man now???
i just got thru with working 60 hours this week and im spending every dime I get out of the check on me and my family not Deshaun, Latisha, Majda, Clarisha, Ebony, Latifa, Shannel, in the projects!!!

[HDR]

The problem is the Left/progressives have been doing this so long and so often simply because no one does anything but talk. The left has seen it time and time again. They need slapped down and hopefully this upcoming election will show them differently.

[American Rage]

The problem is the Left/progressives have been doing this so long and so often simply because no one does anything but talk. The left has seen it time and time again. They need slapped down and hopefully this upcoming election will show them differently.

A slap down should be just the beginning. There should be a complete investigation into Obama, his "team," and the media that has shilled for him. Seriously, people need to go to prison (Bwarney Fwank: "all is well at freddie mac"), and yes some need to be executed for their crimes. While we're at it, we need to clear the courts of liberals, and ask ourselves why their are so few conservative professors on campus. If we don't, we'll just be dealing with another communist in office in a few years. I say we finish the left off as a political party once and for all!!!


Rage

[yankeedog]

A slap down should be just the beginning. There should be a complete investigation into Obama, his "team," and the media that has shilled for him. Seriously, people need to go to prison (Bwarney Fwank: "all is well at freddie mac"), and yes some need to be executed for their crimes. While we're at it, we need to clear the courts of liberals, and ask ourselves why their are so few conservative professors on campus. If we don't, we'll just be dealing with another communist in office in a few years. I say we finish the left off as a political party once and for all!!!


Rage

The guys in office now, well lets put it this way, to look at whats in office now is a very scary picture to think who runs the country verses what could be hiding in the shadows that they can't protect us from!!!
WHERES THE OLD WHITE GUYS WHEN YOU NEED THEM!!!!!!!!

[Mark Ducati]

I would support a 2nd American Revolution to overthrow the scumbags in office now... the problem is, they have the current Army/Navy/Air Force/Marines at their bidding...

So how would a 2nd revolution come to pass? Bunch of backwoods hillbillies with AR's and AK's against the current US Forces? We'd lose...

In order for a successful revolution to occur, we'd need at least a 1/3 of the current military to seceede to support like minded people... I just don't see that happening.

[swampdragon]

I would support a 2nd American Revolution to overthrow the scumbags in office now... the problem is, they have the current Army/Navy/Air Force/Marines at their bidding...

So how would a 2nd revolution come to pass? Bunch of backwoods hillbillies with AR's and AK's against the current US Forces? We'd lose...

In order for a successful revolution to occur, we'd need at least a 1/3 of the current military to seceede to support like minded people... I just don't see that happening.

Short answer is that you don't go up against the military.
You go after select "people," and remain as covert as possible.

The bad thing is that you'd still have 535 targets.
But that's still better odds than going head to head with the military.

[Paladin]

...But that's still better odds than going head to head with the military.

Agreed. Head to head with the military would be foolish.

I don't know what's going to happen though.

All I can say is (my opinion) that the 2nd Revolution, if there is one, may be started over personal interest (taxes, food riots, gun rights, etc.); however; it will only stand a chance of being victorious if genuine concerns for the rights of man recognized by the Constitution are developed as revolutionary underpinnings. Give us liberty or give us death...

[weevil]

Well let's say we are wildly successful and get all "535" what makes anyone think that the next 535 will be any better if not worse?

Do we kill them too?

And the next 535 after them?

And the next?



Let's say we totally overthrow the govt and install a new govt.

How long do you think it will be before they screw up and need overthrown?

What happens if the new leaders of the Revolution aren't the next Washington, Adams, and Jefferson and are more like Pol Pot or Joe Stalin or Robespierre.




Be careful what you wish for,


....you might just get it!

[swampdragon]

I think the next 535 will be a little more careful after seeing the fate of the first 535.

[weevil]

I think the next 535 will be a little more careful after seeing the fate of the first 535.




Yes perhaps they'll be more successful in disarming the people to prevent future massacres.

[swampdragon]

Yes perhaps they'll be more successful in disarming the people to prevent future massacres.

Or perhaps they will listen to the people for a change, go back to honoring the Constitution, and possibly even caring.

Being nice and voting isn't working.
I'm open to suggestions....

[raxar]

Well let's say we are wildly successful and get all "535" what makes anyone think that the next 535 will be any better if not worse?

Do we kill them too?

And the next 535 after them?

And the next?



Let's say we totally overthrow the govt and install a new govt.

How long do you think it will be before they screw up and need overthrown?

What happens if the new leaders of the Revolution aren't the next Washington, Adams, and Jefferson and are more like Pol Pot or Joe Stalin or Robespierre.




Be careful what you wish for,


....you might just get it!


and there's the sad reality, the reason for the corrupt immoral gubmit is because we're a corrupt immoral country (not meant in the crybaby hippie way). Go watch an episode of "Jersey Shore", maybe change the people like that first....

[swampdragon]

So by fear of the unknown, we should just continue to stay the course, even though we know the course is just like the Titanic heading straight for the iceberg?

The people yelling "don't make waves" didn't stop the ship from sinking.

[justinsaneok]

Today? Not much. Tomorrow with $8-10 a gallon for that Coronet? Probably quite a bit, especially when that $8-10 is going overseas b/c Obummer won't let us drill here.


Rage

Well we all know what happens when we drill here!!!!LOL OOPPPSSS WE RUINED THE GULF. I GUESS WE BETTER DRILL IN BRAZIL. I saw that one coming. It's cool though osama opps obama said Americans have been very Resilient.

[justinsaneok]

and there's the sad reality, the reason for the corrupt immoral gubmit is because we're a corrupt immoral country (not meant in the crybaby hippie way). Go watch an episode of "Jersey Shore", maybe change the people like that first....

TV ruined are county. LOL

[swampdragon]

TV ruined are county. LOL

...and that damn rock music is the devil! lol...

[chiak47]

...and that damn rock music is the devil! lol...

Bikini's tore the doors off the church.

[Paladin]

Or perhaps they will listen to the people for a change, go back to honoring the Constitution, and possibly even caring.

Being nice and voting isn't working.
I'm open to suggestions....


Well let's say we are wildly successful and get all "535" what makes anyone think that the next 535 will be any better if not worse?

Do we kill them too?

And the next 535 after them?

And the next?



Let's say we totally overthrow the govt and install a new govt.

How long do you think it will be before they screw up and need overthrown?

What happens if the new leaders of the Revolution aren't the next Washington, Adams, and Jefferson and are more like Pol Pot or Joe Stalin or Robespierre.




Be careful what you wish for,


....you might just get it!

These same concerns were brought up as objections to the first revolution. Pragmatically, they will be unable to stop the second too...

[weevil]

Well if we look at revolutions from the past we find that the American Revolution was the exception rather than the rule.


If we look at France, Russia, China, Cuba, Cambodia, etc.....

....you'll notice things didn't turn out quite as well as they did in America.


Oh I suppose it's possible lightning might strike twice but really considering the type of leadership we have now I tend to think we'd simply wind up with another tyrannical dictatorship as is the more common result.

What man of greatness and dignity like Washington is there now who would walk away from that kind of power???

Such men are very, very rare.

[swampdragon]

Well if we look at revolutions from the past we find that the American Revolution was the exception rather than the rule.


If we look at France, Russia, China, Cuba, Cambodia, etc.....

....you'll notice things didn't turn out quite as well as they did in America.


Oh I suppose it's possible lightning might strike twice but really considering the type of leadership we have now I tend to think we'd simply wind up with another tyrannical dictatorship as is the more common result.

What man of greatness and dignity like Washington is there now who would walk away from that kind of power???

Such men are very, very rare.

So your answer here is "what" exactly then?

If you don't believe that any "Revolutionaries" (for lack of a better word) could come up with better people to run the new establishment........then why would you think that our currently totally corrupt politicians can, and all we have to do is vote?
Just doesn't make sense to me.

[chiak47]

So your answer here is "what" exactly then?

If you don't believe that any "Revolutionaries" (for lack of a better word) could come up with better people to run the new establishment........then why would you think that our currently totally corrupt politicians can, and all we have to do is vote?
Just doesn't make sense to me.

To quote the great poet Zacarías Manuel de la Rocha..."you can kill the revolutionary but you can't kill the revolution."

[weevil]

So your answer here is "what" exactly then?

If you don't believe that any "Revolutionaries" (for lack of a better word) could come up with better people to run the new establishment........then why would you think that our currently totally corrupt politicians can, and all we have to do is vote?
Just doesn't make sense to me.



Well why don't the "revolutionaries" put their efforts into changing the system from within???


Why don't they just put forth these "better people" now and get them elected to run the current establishment???


The founding fathers gave us an excellent system of goverment for running this nation. I find it hard to believe that people who are now too foolish to know how to make this system work the way it should are gonna be smart enough to come up with a "better" system simply by killing off the current crop of crooks.

If we all have been manipulated so badly as to let things come to this point, what makes you think that we're suddenly going to wise up and stop being manipulated by the new leaders?


Sorry I wish I had a simple easy "answer" to all of our problems but I don't.


Perhaps the time is indeed coming when the only answer is violence and death but if so I'm just not as optimistic as you that everything will come up roses when or if the killing ever stops.


Of course I could be wrong we shall see.

[Paladin]

Well if we look at revolutions from the past we find that the American Revolution was the exception rather than the rule...If we look at France, Russia, China, Cuba, Cambodia, etc...you'll notice things didn't turn out quite as well as they did in America...Oh I suppose it's possible lightning might strike twice but really considering the type of leadership we have now I tend to think we'd simply wind up with another tyrannical dictatorship as is the more common result...What man of greatness and dignity like Washington is there now who would walk away from that kind of power???...Such men are very, very rare.

Weevil, consider this; you are comparing apples to oranges.

Yes the American Revolution was exceptional, in that the thing that motivated the revolutionaries was the recognition of individual liberties. A rare thing indeed. This type of motivation caused the Washington's, Jefferson's, Franklin's and more to come to positions of leadership. This is not unusual.

The revolutions of France, Russia, China, Cuba, Cambodia that you mentioned were based on liberation and the desire to promote new forms of government, but not based on the recognition of individual liberties. And they produced governments that, by and large, stepped on individual liberties as a means of implementing and maintaining those governments. This caused men like Robespierre, Pol Pot, Lenin, Castro and so forth to come to positions of leadership. Again, not unexpected.

A revolution based on securing personal liberties, should it be successful, would produce leaders of the same mind.

Sua Sponte.

[weevil]

Weevil, consider this; you are comparing apples to oranges.

Yes the American Revolution was exceptional, in that the thing that motivated the revolutionaries was the recognition of individual liberties. A rare thing indeed. This type of motivation caused the Washington's, Jefferson's, Franklin's and more to come to positions of leadership. This is not unusual.

The revolutions of France, Russia, China, Cuba, Cambodia that you mentioned were based on liberation and the desire to promote new forms of government, but not based on the recognition of individual liberties. And they produced governments that, by and large, stepped on individual liberties as a means of implementing and maintaining those governments. This caused men like Robespierre, Pol Pot, Lenin, Castro and so forth to come to positions of leadership. Again, not unexpected.

A revolution based on securing personal liberties, should it be successful, would produce leaders of the same mind.

Sua Sponte.



Well all revolutions start out with good intentions and many are justified by the tyranny of the estabilshment.

Which one of those revolutions wasn't started to secure the liberties of the people from corrupt and abusive goverments???


The Shah of Iran was a horrible despot in charge of a corrupt goverment but have the people of Iran been better off with the Muslim fanatics now in charge???


Oh like I said it's always possible we could do it again but personally I tend to think that the fact the American Revolution didn't wind up as another dictatorship was a minor miracle. Washington turning down the reins of power cannot be played off as some minor thing, no other revolutionary leader since has been able to bring himself to do that.

Maybe some great man will rise to the occasion but at this point in time I sure can't think of anyone around today who could be trusted to turn down being an all powerful dictator who rules the land with an iron fist.


Could you or would you??


Imagine having total and complete control to rule this nation as you see fit and set things to right!


Would you walk away from that and let the people decide how to run the new nation??


Be honest! ;)

[Paladin]

Well why don't the "revolutionaries" put their efforts into changing the system from within?...Why don't they just put forth these "better people" now and get them elected to run the current establishment?...The founding fathers gave us an excellent system of goverment for running this nation. I find it hard to believe that people who are now too foolish to know how to make this system work the way it should are gonna be smart enough to come up with a "better" system simply by killing off the current crop of crooks...If we all have been manipulated so badly as to let things come to this point, what makes you think that we're suddenly going to wise up and stop being manipulated by the new leaders?...Sorry I wish I had a simple easy "answer" to all of our problems but I don't...Perhaps the time is indeed coming when the only answer is violence and death but if so I'm just not as optimistic as you that everything will come up roses when or if the killing ever stops...Of course I could be wrong we shall see.

Weevil, the "revolutionaries" are We the People. I don't believe what is being said here is that the form of government should be changed. Nor is it being said that now is the time for revolt.

The current office holders of our government have a stranglehold on the political system. What is being said is that voting will probably not be enough. Too bad I say. But a better system is not needed.

It is not a matter of unwise people being openly manipulated. We neglected over the years to continue to educate each generation s to the need to guard individual liberties jealously. And the folks holding office have become master of manipulation by deceit as well as overtly. We the People have become forgetful and lazy, but not stupid and dull.

Our system calls for measures before revolution other than merely voting. The people have, with the help of official corruption, "unlearned" these things. They must be retaught, along with the original perspective of personal liberties.

Should voting, these other measures, and education fail, and the offences against the Constitution become numerous enough, grievous enough, and unlawful enough, We the People are compelled to act on the fact that, according to the Constitution, it is not only our right, but our responsibility, to revolt. Violently...

[weevil]

Weevil, the "revolutionaries" are We the People. I don't believe what is being said here is that the form of government should be changed. Nor is it being said that now is the time for revolt.

The current office holders of our government have a stranglehold on the political system. What is being said is that voting will probably not be enough. Too bad I say. But a better system is not needed.

It is not a matter of unwise people being openly manipulated. We neglected over the years to continue to educate each generation s to the need to guard individual liberties jealously. And the folks holding office have become master of manipulation by deceit as well as overtly. We the People have become forgetful and lazy, but not stupid and dull.

Our system calls for measures before revolution other than merely voting. The people have, with the help of official corruption, "unlearned" these things. They must be retaught, along with the original perspective of personal liberties.

Should voting, these other measures, and education fail, and the offences against the Constitution become numerous enough, grievous enough, and unlawful enough, We the People are compelled to act on the fact that, according to the Constitution, it is not only our right, but our responsibility, to revolt. Violently...



True but what are our grievances that can only be washed away with blood???


What are the offences against the Constitution that require executions of the offenders???


No I'm not happy with the current govt and the direction it's headed either but honestly I don't see it at the point of violence, yet.


Revolution isn't something to be taken lightly.


Win or lose this nation will be changed forever and unless you have a crystal ball there's no way of knowing if that change will be for the good or for evil.

[swampdragon]

Well why don't the "revolutionaries" put their efforts into changing the system from within???


Why don't they just put forth these "better people" now and get them elected to run the current establishment???


The founding fathers gave us an excellent system of goverment for running this nation. I find it hard to believe that people who are now too foolish to know how to make this system work the way it should are gonna be smart enough to come up with a "better" system simply by killing off the current crop of crooks.

If we all have been manipulated so badly as to let things come to this point, what makes you think that we're suddenly going to wise up and stop being manipulated by the new leaders?


Sorry I wish I had a simple easy "answer" to all of our problems but I don't.


Perhaps the time is indeed coming when the only answer is violence and death but if so I'm just not as optimistic as you that everything will come up roses when or if the killing ever stops.


Of course I could be wrong we shall see.

Well, the way I see it is this:

Politicians these days get elected because of mass amounts of money, and endorsements from other politicians.
The regular guy who may be the greatest ever has the smallest chance.
True, it's always been that way...but not to the corrupt levels we see today.
Personally, I find a lot of that to stem directly from the two party system. (which sucks by the way)

Our Founding Fathers were a different breed of men.
A world apart...like you said.
And yes, I agree with you that finding more like them will be hard.
However, I think our best hope lies with the public, not with other career politicians.

[Paladin]

..Be honest! ;)

OK, honestly, I could. And would pretty damn quick. I got a lot of fishing to do. Besides, there are better men than me. Much better.

Again, you sight the aftermath of revolutions that were not started out of respect for INDIVIDUAL liberties.

Consider this; if your thought had prevailed 235 years ago (and it very nearly did) and continued, we would all still be subjects of the Crown (well no, probably the 3rd Reich).

Jefferson and others, heavily influenced by the writings Niccolo Machiavelli, taught that well armed freemen, with those arms pointed at the government, was the best way to assure good government. A successful revolution, based on the recognition of individual liberties and underpinned by 2nd Amendment rights is sufficient to ensure good government for several generations.

Jefferson would not be surprised should there be a 2nd Revolution.

"...The people can not be all, and always, well informed. The part which is wrong will be discontented in proportion to the importance of the facts they misconceive. If they remain quiet under such misconceptions it is a lethargy, the forerunner of death to the public liberty. We have had 13. states independant 11. years. There has been one rebellion. That comes to one rebellion in a century and a half for each state. What country ever existed a century and a half without a rebellion? And what country can preserve it's liberties if their rulers are not warned from time to time that their people preserve the spirit of resistance? Let them take arms. The remedy is to set them right as to facts, pardon and pacify them. What signify a few lives lost in a century or two? The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants. It is it's natural manure..." Jefferson in a letter to Adams

[chiak47]

Our Founding Fathers were a different breed of men.


Washington owned over 10,000 acres of land and he laid it all on the line for his belief and his own troops almost mutinied while they were starving at Valley Forge....

[swampdragon]

Weevil, consider this; you are comparing apples to oranges.

Yes the American Revolution was exceptional, in that the thing that motivated the revolutionaries was the recognition of individual liberties. A rare thing indeed. This type of motivation caused the Washington's, Jefferson's, Franklin's and more to come to positions of leadership. This is not unusual.

The revolutions of France, Russia, China, Cuba, Cambodia that you mentioned were based on liberation and the desire to promote new forms of government, but not based on the recognition of individual liberties. And they produced governments that, by and large, stepped on individual liberties as a means of implementing and maintaining those governments. This caused men like Robespierre, Pol Pot, Lenin, Castro and so forth to come to positions of leadership. Again, not unexpected.

A revolution based on securing personal liberties, should it be successful, would produce leaders of the same mind.

Sua Sponte.

Excellent post.

[weevil]

Well, the way I see it is this:

Politicians these days get elected because of mass amounts of money, and endorsements from other politicians.
The regular guy who may be the greatest ever has the smallest chance.
True, it's always been that way...but not to the corrupt levels we see today.
Personally, I find a lot of that to stem directly from the two party system. (which sucks by the way)

Our Founding Fathers were a different breed of men.
A world apart...like you said.
And yes, I agree with you that finding more like them will be hard.
However, I think our best hope lies with the public, not with other career politicians.



Term limits.


Eliminating career politicians would go a long way in eliminating the corrupt little empires that are draining the life blood from this nation.

We know the answer to the problem we just need to figure out a way to implement the solution.

[Paladin]

True but what are our grievances that can only be washed away with blood???...What are the offences against the Constitution that require executions of the offenders???...No I'm not happy with the current govt and the direction it's headed either but honestly I don't see it at the point of violence, yet...Revolution isn't something to be taken lightly....Win or lose this nation will be changed forever and unless you have a crystal ball there's no way of knowing if that change will be for the good or for evil.

Weevil, reread my post. I said there are other things to do before revolt besides voting. My post indicated that revolt should not be taken lightly (I agree with the Declaration of Independence). But the point is, IF ALL ELSE FAILS, revolt is called for...

[swampdragon]

Washington owned over 10,000 acres of land and he laid it all on the line for his belief and his own troops almost mutinied while they were starving at Valley Forge....

Yet they didn't....because they believed in what they were doing...no matter how tough the road.
Gotta love those guys.

[swampdragon]

Term limits.


Eliminating career politicians would go a long way in eliminating the corrupt little empires that are draining the life blood from this nation.

We know the answer to the problem we just need to figure out a way to implement the solution.

I'm all for term limits.
Damn straight.
I agree with you completely here.
Problem is, how do you get corrupt politicians to vote for something that would help eliminate corrupt politicians?
It holds about as much hope as reducing thier self proclaimed pay raises while they raise our taxes.

[Paladin]

Term limits...Eliminating career politicians would go a long way in eliminating the corrupt little empires that are draining the life blood from this nation...We know the answer to the problem we just need to figure out a way to implement the solution.

I agree, Weevil, and if we are unable to implement solutions after considerable effort, revolt is called for...

Let me ask you sumptin this time.. What do you recommend if it turns out that no solution can be implemented, after all honest efforts have failed (all of them), and elected officials continue to advance down the road to where the Founding Fathers would revolt if they were present?

[Paladin]

I'm all for term limits.
Damn straight.
I agree with you completely here.
Problem is, how do you get corrupt politicians to vote for something that would help eliminate corrupt politicians?
It holds about as much hope as reducing thier self proclaimed pay raises while they raise our taxes.

When I lived in Arkansas, we called that, "the fox guarding the hen house".

[weevil]

OK, honestly, I could. And would pretty damn quick. I got a lot of fishing to do. Besides, there are better men than me. Much better.

Again, you sight the aftermath of revolutions that were not started out of respect for INDIVIDUAL liberties.

Consider this; if your thought had prevailed 235 years ago (and it very nearly did) and continued, we would all still be subjects of the Crown (well no, probably the 3rd Reich).



No because the situatuation was different 235 years ago.


We are not ruled by a foreign power from across the ocean by a goverment in which we have no representation or say in our own affairs.



We have elected our own representatives to our own goverment and just aren't happy with the results.


In the same situation 235 years ago I would have marched to war for our freedom and right to self determination as well.


Nowadays we already have the right to elect our representatives to guide this nation, so what is it we'll be fighting for this time around???





Jefferson and others, heavily influenced by the writings Niccolo Machiavelli, taught that well armed freemen, with those arms pointed at the government, was the best way to assure good government. A successful revolution, based on the recognition of individual liberties and underpinned by 2nd Amendment rights is sufficient to ensure good government for several generations.

Jefferson would not be surprised should there be a 2nd Revolution.

"...The people can not be all, and always, well informed. The part which is wrong will be discontented in proportion to the importance of the facts they misconceive. If they remain quiet under such misconceptions it is a lethargy, the forerunner of death to the public liberty. We have had 13. states independant 11. years. There has been one rebellion. That comes to one rebellion in a century and a half for each state. What country ever existed a century and a half without a rebellion? And what country can preserve it's liberties if their rulers are not warned from time to time that their people preserve the spirit of resistance? Let them take arms. The remedy is to set them right as to facts, pardon and pacify them. What signify a few lives lost in a century or two? The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants. It is it's natural manure..." Jefferson in a letter to Adams



Okay so which fundamental rights as freemen are we being denied???


What are the liberties that a second revolution would give to us that we are currently being deprived of???

[weevil]

I agree, Weevil, and if we are unable to implement solutions after considerable effort, revolt is called for...

Let me ask you sumptin this time.. What do you recommend if it turns out that no solution can be implemented, after all honest efforts have failed (all of them), and elected officials continue to advance down the road to where the Founding Fathers would revolt if they were present?


If indeed the point comes where elections are meaningless and the corruption runs so deep that no peaceful means are left to the people.......


.........then yes the time for bloody revolt will have arrived.



But do you really and truly think that we're anywhere near that point???

[swampdragon]

If indeed the point comes where elections are meaningless and the corruption runs so deep that no peaceful means are left to the people.......


.........then yes the time for bloody revolt will have arrived.



But do you really and truly think that we're anywhere near that point???


I was thinking of asking you that too.
What is your line in the sand?

[weevil]

I was thinking of asking you that too.
What is your line in the sand?


For me the "line" would be elections that are blatantly and obviously phony.


Oh not the typical shenanigans we see in our politics every election but like in Iran where the choice of the people is well known but a goverment stooge wins by a landslide.

Once the elections become a total fraud then we must decide to either accept our chains or fight for our beliefs.


If we have no control over our destiny or voice in the direction of our nation then we will be in the same situation our forefathers were in 235 years ago.

[Paladin]

...We are not ruled by a foreign power from across the ocean by a goverment in which we have no representation or say in our own affairs...We have elected our own representatives to our own goverment and just aren't happy with the results...In the same situation 235 I would have marched to war for our freedom and right to self determination as well...Nowadays we already have the right to elect our representatives to guide this nation, so what is it we'll be fighting for this time around???...Okay so which fundamental rights as freemen are we being denied???...What are the liberties that a second revolution would give to us that we are currently being deprived of???

Weevil. Jefferson's letter to Adams was written 11 years after we were a nation. We had representatives and so forth as you mention. We were not ruled from overseas. A state had revolted. Reread it. Jefferson said it was no big deal because it kept the feds on their toes with respect to states rights and individual liberties.

I will give you one instance of something that would have triggered a revolt in the early States. Then, as a person interested in current events regarding the usurpation of states right and individual liberties by the feds, you will have to honestly look for the great number of these things that are not difficult to find.

No citizen is to be deprived of property or financial instruments without due process. For decades the feds have been seizing money, cash, without due process as a matter of policy. There are literally thousands of well documented examples.

A man paid cash from a large wad of cash for an airline ticket from the Midwest to Houston and back again the same day. He was met at the return airport by two feds. They asked him if he had purchased the ticket from a wad of cash. When he answered honestly, they took nearly $10K from him saying it was drug money. The airline had done this kind of reporting many times, always with the same results. The man protested. Even demanded to be charged. No they said, it was drug money and they could seize it without the need for due process and left with cash. No further action was taken by the feds.

What do you think of that?

[Paladin]

...then yes the time for bloody revolt will have arrived...But do you really and truly think that we're anywhere near that point???

Weevil, as a patriot, I am not a prognosticator. It matters little difference to me that the time is far or near for revolt; only that I am as ready as the Founding Fathers have indicated I should be. And that I am doing what I can, not just voting, to seek redress from the guvmint before there is a revolt. But I stand ready to revolt at all times. It is my patriotic duty. Yours too...

[swampdragon]

For me the "line" would be elections that are blatantly and obviously phony.


Oh not the typical shenanigans we see in our politics every election but like in Iran where the choice of the people is well known but a goverment stooge wins by a landslide.

Once the elections become a total fraud then we must decide to either accept our chains or fight for our beliefs.


If we have no control over our destiny or voice in the direction of our nation then we will be in the same situation our forefathers were in 235 years ago.

So do you feel we actually have any control "now" over our destiny?
Or are you willing to admit that Washington does what Washington wants to, regardless of what we think already?

[weevil]

Weevil. Jefferson's letter to Adams was written 11 years after we were a nation. We had representatives and so forth as you mention. We were not ruled from overseas. A state had revolted. Reread it. Jefferson said it was no big deal because it kept the feds on their toes with respect to states rights and individual liberties.

I will give you one instance of something that would have triggered a revolt in the early States. Then, as a person interested in current events regarding the usurpation of states right and individual liberties by the feds, you will have to honestly look for the great number of these things that are not difficult to find.

No citizen is to be deprived of property or financial instruments without due process. For decades the feds have been seizing money, cash, without due process as a matter of policy. There are literally thousands of well documented examples.

A man paid cash from a large wad of cash for an airline ticket from the Midwest to Houston and back again the same day. He was met at the return airport by two feds. They asked him if he had purchased the ticket from a wad of cash. When he answered honestly, they took nearly $10K from him saying it was drug money. The airline had done this kind of reporting many times, always with the same results. The man protested. Even demanded to be charged. No they said, it was drug money and they could seize it without the need for due process and left with cash. No further action was taken by the feds.

What do you think of that?


I've already heard that one.


Yeah it's wrong but it's not a common everyday occurence or at least not common enough that people will rise up and go to war over it.

Shit happens, I mean there's plenty of corruption going on and the govt has used the war on drugs as an excuse to violate the Constitution on many occasions.

The RICO laws are blatantly unconstitutional but our very own elected representatives passed these laws.


The difference 235 years ago was we were being opressed by a goverment in which they had no representation, now we are being oppressed by the people we elected.


A subtle difference to be sure but it's a lot easier to get people to rise up against a goverment that they have no control over, than it is to get them to admit they made a mistake by electing a bunch of bozos. As long as people can be convinced that drugs are more horrible than losing their freedom this will continue.


Unfortunately a revolution won't put an end to stupidity.

[Paladin]

For me the "line" would be elections that are blatantly and obviously phony.


Oh not the typical shenanigans we see in our politics every election but like in Iran where the choice of the people is well known but a goverment stooge wins by a landslide.

Once the elections become a total fraud then we must decide to either accept our chains or fight for our beliefs.


If we have no control over our destiny or voice in the direction of our nation then we will be in the same situation our forefathers were in 235 years ago.

But Weevil, the founding Fathers didn't revolt because they had no control over their destinies (whether they did or not was beside the point). They revolted over the issue of governmental disregard for individual liberties. Try not to think about it as to whether or not you have any control left, that leaves you with fewer real options. But from the point of view of flagrant governmental disregard for Constitutionally recognized civil liberties. That's the issue now and then. Not impotence...

[weevil]

So do you feel we actually have any control "now" over our destiny?
Or are you willing to admit that Washington does what Washington wants to, regardless of what we think already?


Yes actually I do.

I still have faith in my nation and it's people and in the form of goverment established by our forefathers.


No I don't like everything that goes on in Washington or Denver or down at city hall but I do realize I'm but one of many and my voice and opinions hold no more weight than that of my fellow citizens even if I do own a gun. ;)


Sometimes the people make mistakes and things go wrong but I still believe in the fundamental strength of the American people and our system of goverment.

[Paladin]

I've already heard that one.


Yeah it's wrong but it's not a common everyday occurence or at least not common enough that people will rise up and go to war over it.

Shit happens, I mean there's plenty of corruption going on and the govt has used the war on drugs as an excuse to violate the Constitution on many occasions.

The RICO laws are blatantly unconstitutional but our very own elected representatives passed these laws.


The difference 235 years ago was we were being opressed by a goverment in which they had no representation, now we are being oppressed by the people we elected.


A subtle difference to be sure but it's a lot easier to get people to rise up against a goverment that they have no control over, than it is to get them to admit they made a mistake by electing a bunch of bozos. As long as people can be convinced that drugs are more horrible than losing their freedom this will continue.


Unfortunately a revolution won't put an end to stupidity.

Thought you were unaware of what liberties were being abused?

[Paladin]

Yes actually I do.

I still have faith in my nation and it's people and in the form of goverment established by our forefathers.


No I don't like everything that goes on in Washington or Denver or down at city hall but I do realize I'm but one of many and my voice and opinions hold no more weight than that of my fellow citizens even if I do own a gun. ;)


Sometimes the people make mistakes and things go wrong but I still believe in the fundamental strength of the American people and our system of goverment.

I have that very same faith. That is why I understand, as the Founding fathers did, that as an armed citizen my voice is amplified. I have faith in the logic of the 2nd Amendment. Which was given to men with representation. Not men with no voice or control under a king.

[weevil]

But Weevil, the founding Fathers didn't revolt because they had no control over their destinies (whether they did or not was beside the point). They revolted over the issue of governmental disregard for individual liberties. Try not to think about it as to whether or not you have any control left, that leaves you with fewer real options. But from the point of view of flagrant governmental disregard for Constitutionally recognized civil liberties. That's the issue now and then. Not impotence...


No it's not, because our forefathers had no "constitutionally recognized civil liberties" they were subjects of the Crown.

Perhaps you're familiar with the phrase "no taxation without representation" and the patriots dumping tea into Boston harbor to protest these taxes.


They didn't have "constitutionally recognized civil liberties" until they established their own nation and wrote a constitution to recognize and protect their civil liberties.

[weevil]

Thought you were unaware of what liberties were being abused?


No I'm well aware of them.


I'm just not yet to the point where I'm ready to go out and start killing people in some sort of attempt to correct these "abuses".

[Paladin]

No I'm well aware of them.


I'm just not yet to the point where I'm ready to go out and start killing people in some sort of attempt to correct these "abuses".

Reread my posts. The issue of going out and killing is not being suggested as an immediate action. There are other things to do first. And hopefully it will not come to it.

One other thing. At the start of the American revolution it is figured that less than 25% of the people were in favor of revolt. The rest were drug kicking and screaming into it...

Better start doing something besides just voting.

[swampdragon]

Yes actually I do.

I still have faith in my nation and it's people and in the form of goverment established by our forefathers.


No I don't like everything that goes on in Washington or Denver or down at city hall but I do realize I'm but one of many and my voice and opinions hold no more weight than that of my fellow citizens even if I do own a gun. ;)


Sometimes the people make mistakes and things go wrong but I still believe in the fundamental strength of the American people and our system of goverment.

Dammit Weevil!
I hate it when you do that.
Stop saying stuff I agree with.
We are supposed to be disagreeing!
lol...

[Paladin]

No it's not, because our forefathers had no "constitutionally recognized civil liberties" they were subjects of the Crown...Perhaps you're familiar with the phrase "no taxation without representation" and the patriots dumping tea into Boston harbor to protest these taxes...They didn't have "constitutionally recognized civil liberties" until they established their own nation and wrote a constitution to recognize and protect their civil liberties.

Weevil, reread the post (I swear, I gonna sue you for giving me carpal tunnel just as soon as I am through litigating Hustler for it). I wrote, "...They revolted over the issue of governmental disregard for individual liberties..." And they did. The King had no regard for the individual liberties the the Founding Fathers new they had before the revolurion and later recognized whith the Constitution. I did not write that they were already Constitutionally recognized at the time of the revolt.

Then I wrote, "Try not to think about it as to whether or not you have any control left, that leaves you with fewer real options. But from the point of view of flagrant governmental disregard for Constitutionally recognized civil liberties"., referring to the now.

I think you wasted what would have been a perfectly good rebuttal for a different quote...LOL

[Paladin]

Good night all. It's been swell. This is the sort of debate that lent definition to the first revolution.

Let me close with an opinion. I believe if the Founders were magically brought to this day. Allowed to roam about freely, access the internet, watch C-Span, and so forth. By tomorrow evening, they would be in a smoke filled back room speaking in the hushed tones of conspiracy...

Hasta la vista, baby..

[swampdragon]

Well....I love our country.
And I dedicated my adult life to defending the Constitution.
But honestly, I don't feel like I'm being represented any more.

Clinton and Bush both violated my 2A rights.

The government is trying harder and harder to penalize the strong, hard working people by taking from them and giving it to the ungrateful and undeserving.

Business who operate under the rules of sheer greed and stupidity should fail and rightfully so. But instead, the government takes "my" money, gives it to them, and rewards them for their incompetence while screwing me over.

We have borrowed insurmountable amounts of money from other countries that we cannot pay back.

You don't pay off your bills by spending more money.

You don't let private banks dictate government activities.

You don't fight wars you don't really want to win...yet tell the public you are doing your best and sorry for your loss.

You don't shove universal health care down my throat.
"I" decide what doctor to see, and when, and why. Not you.

You don't tax and regulate businesses to the point that they move someplace else and put our own people out of work.

You never import more than you export.

You don't give ILLEGAL immigrants more benefits than the citizens of your own country get...and then act like it's perfectly great.

You don't bitch about crime, drug wars, smuggling, gun running, etc...but then refuse to close your borders...and then act surprised because people are pissed off.

You don't go after American "States" for stepping up to the plate and handling a situation that the Federal Government simply won't do.

There is still a lot more, and I can go on and on...
Holy F*ckin' Crap.
Yep.
I still vote.
But it's gotten me nowhere in a big fast hurry.

Where is my representation?

[l921428x]

There are a lot of people that feel exactly the same way swampy, me being on of them. People in general are starting to awake and realize the gravity
of the situation, I really do not think it is to late to turn this around but it is getting really close.

[swampdragon]

There are a lot of people that feel exactly the same way swampy, me being on of them. People in general are starting to awake and realize the gravity
of the situation, I really do not think it is to late to turn this around but it is getting really close.

How close is too close?
When it's too late?
See what I mean?
Our Founding Fathers would be spitting blood and nails by now...and already killing mother f*ckers!
Bodies would be hanging by ropes in the streets of DC with signs around their necks saying "Traitor" and the like.

November is really the final stand.
I do agree with O.S.O.K. that something really bad is on the near horizon if the course is not altered.
What's even worse is that it will (could) have multiple fronts.
We the People against the crooked politicians and also against Mexico too.
It's frightening to say the least.

[l921428x]

Really close is right now, when you have people that will elect a communist, just because of skin color.
You know as well as I that this is a systemic thing, it comes from the lack of teaching history and of moral decay.

[mriddick]

For a successful revolution I'd think you'd need around 1/3 of the population to fight for your ideas (actually take up arms) and in the end be able to convince a majority to go along with you. In that I think the pro revolutionary side is along way from having the numbers.

[Paladin]

For a successful revolution I'd think you'd need around 1/3 of the population to fight for your ideas (actually take up arms) and in the end be able to convince a majority to go along with you. In that I think the pro revolutionary side is along way from having the numbers.

Close or far? I don't know. 1/4, 1/3, 1/2? Still don't know. Since the subject is subjective, let me tell you how I "feel". Maybe the move from "a long way to have the numbers" to having the numbers will not be an arithmetic process, maybe it will be exponential. Maybe November will not be a catalyst, maybe it will be synergistic. Numbers have proven that time is relative. Who knows...

[l921428x]

The numbers are here now! The focus has to take over. What do we want and need are the only things that are subjective.
In my opinion we do not need any of the things that this administration is CRAMING down our throats.

[mriddick]

My belief is too few revolutionaries pushing the majority ends in a communist Russia 1917 (or Chinese 1950) type revolution, probably with all the blood letting history tells us follows. Supposedly less then 10% of the Russian revolutionaries took up arms forcing the other 90% to go their way. In the end they had to kill alot of people to force their will and never enjoyed the people's backing for any length of time (they were never fully legitimate).

The American revolution was conducted with roughly 1/3 being pro crown, 1/3 being prorevolution and 1/3 willing to go with who ever would of won. I think the 1/3 model works much better then the 10% model the Russians and Chinese used.

If in the end you don't enjoy a 60% or so majority for your position I think the revolution would (should) be considered a failure. I think anyone thinking a revolution might be on the horizon should be reading the history of past revolutions with the idea of what separated the ones that lived up to the idea of freedom and those that did not.

[Paladin]

...If in the end you don't enjoy a 60% or so majority for your position I think the revolution would (should) be considered a failure. I think anyone thinking a revolution might be on the horizon should be reading the history of past revolutions with the idea of what separated the ones that lived up to the idea of freedom and those that did not.

I once heard it said that, "The only thing worse than a revolution is a failed revolution".

[HDR]

Well if we look at revolutions from the past we find that the American Revolution was the exception rather than the rule.

True, usually they lose...



If we look at France, Russia, China, Cuba, Cambodia, etc.....

....you'll notice things didn't turn out quite as well as they did in America.

And when they win we see the results.



Oh I suppose it's possible lightning might strike twice but really considering the type of leadership we have now I tend to think we'd simply wind up with another tyrannical dictatorship as is the more common result.

It is more than possible; but as history shows it is usually improbable.

[Paladin]

The numbers are here now! The focus has to take over. What do we want and need are the only things that are subjective.
In my opinion we do not need any of the things that this administration is CRAMING down our throats.

This from a friend in Panama...

----- Original Message -----
From: "Bubba Hamm" <bubbahamm@.com>
To: "undisclosed-recipients:"
Sent: Saturday, July 31, 2010 6:05 PM
Subject: Announcing "Greensboro Open & Carry Rally", Saturday, August 14,
2010 1:00 PM!

SOMETIMES I SURE MISS NORTH CAROLINA!

-----Original Message-----
From: Jerald
To:
Sent: Sat, Jul 31, 2010 12:41 pm
Subject: Fw: Announcing "Greensboro Open & Carry Rally", Saturday,
August 14, 2010 1:00 PM!

Wow, talk about show of force!!!! I guess this is in support of the
2nd ammendment but could also be interpreted as a strong, to say the
least, "Don't Tread on Me" statement to the socialists in our state
and federal governments. The statement, one would suppose, is that if
we cannot stop the subversion of our constitutional rights by legal
vote, there are other options open to the people. The inspiring words
of the Declaration of Independence "When in the course of Human
events.....etc" come to mind. I knew this would be an exciting summer
in the US. All we have here in Panama to complain about is rain and
power outages. Best to you all. P

¨Pete¨
President, Panama Enterprises
Clayton, Panama, R. de P.

----- Forwarded Message ----
From: New Meetup &lt;info@meetup.com&gt;
To: maukapete@.com
Sent: Sat, July 31, 2010 8:16:41 AM
Subject: Announcing "Greensboro Open & Carry Rally", Saturday, August
14, 2010 1:00 PM!

Meetup Announcement
Triangle Conservatives Unite!
Your group has a Meetup Saturday, August 14, 2010 1:00 PM!

What Greensboro Open & Carry Rally
When
Saturday, August 14, 2010 1:00 PM
Who 21 Yes
Where Battleground Park
2332 New Garden Road
Greensboro NC 27410
336-508-5505
RSVP Now
YES NO 21 Conservatives RSVPed Yes, including…

see all
Meetup Description
The second Restore the Constitution Rally, the standard "Rules of Non
Engagement" will be in effect (please scroll down to read these rules),
so this event should run as smoothly.
“We want to remind Americans that they have a basic human right to keep
and bear arms – both for self-defense and to preserve individual
freedom – that is not only enshrined in the Bill of Rights, but is
protected only by Americans’ willingness to actually exercise that
right. Just as is true with free speech, freedom of assembly, and every
other right guaranteed by the Constitution – if you don’t insist on
your Constitutional freedoms by exercising them in public, you will
lose them.”
Speakers at this rally include:
1. Mike Vanderboegh (Alleged leader of a merry band of Three Percenters)
2 Daniel Almond (Organizer of the Original Restore The Constitution
rally)
3. Taylor Ruble (from NC Rangers)
4. John Ainsworth (Civil War and Constitutional historian)
5. Ron Woodard (NC Listen)
6. David DeGerolamo (Founder of NC Freedom)
7. Bubba McDowell from the blog “What Bubba Knows”
8. Laura Long from “Triangle Conservative Unite”
9. Dr Dan Eichenbaym(from the mountains in NC and has his own TV show)
http://drdansfreedomforum.com/
10. Dr BJ Lawson (running for US House of Representatives)
11. Rick Smith (Marine and running for NC State House)
12. Bill Randall (running for US House of Representatives)
13. June Griffin (running for Governor of Tennessee)
14. Tom Baugh (author of “Starving the Monkeys”)
15. Dr Ada Fisher National Conservative Republican Spokeswoman and
black conservative
16. Vernon Robertson, Winston Salem 9/12 Group

Rules of (non) Engagement
Pistol loaded, openly carried. Rifle unloaded, slung to rear. Bandoleer
of magazines containing ammo. All in accordance with rules below.
Please note that guidelines below are subject to final coordination
with the Department of the Interior:
Participants and attendees are expected to know and abide by all
applicable state and federal firearms laws. None of the information
provided below is legal advice, and no attorney-client relationship is
created by reading or relying upon this information. If you have
questions, then you are expected to know the applicable state and
federal firearms laws before attending the event. Anyone prohibited
from possessing a firearm by state or federal law may not possess a
firearm at this event. Participants and attendees may not bring any
firearm prohibited by state or federal law.
1. ALL rifles and shotguns carried by participants at this event are to
be unloaded (chamber empty, no magazine inserted, no ammo inside the
rifle or shotgun, no ammo touching the rifle or shotgun whatsoever) and
slung to the rear or to the side, away from the hands. Although the law
does allow for carry of some types of loaded rifles and some types of
shotguns in some circumstances, our guidelines are simpler and more
strict due to the relative novelty of this event and the high level of
attention it is likely to receive from law enforcement, government, and
the media. 2. While we do ask that your rifles and shotguns be
unloaded, you are perfectly welcome to carry ammunition and loaded
magazines on your person if you so choose, so long as no magazines are
actually inserted into rifles and so long as you are not prohibited
from owning a firearm. 3. Open carry of a loaded pistol is allowed.
Concealed carry of a pistol is allowed for those with a valid North
Carolina concealed handgun permit or a concealed handgun permit from a
state for which North Carolina allows concealed carry in North Carolina
(See the North Carolina Department of Justice website for a list of
those states at www.ncdoj.com; we do not vouch for the authenticity or
accuracy of that list). Anyone carrying their pistol openly or
concealed cannot have in it a magazine capable of holding over 20
rounds and cannot have a pistol designed to accept a silencer or
suppressor Participants and attendees are required to keep all pistols
holstered. Participants and attendees are required to keep all
rifles/shotguns slung over their shoulder, muzzle-down, unloaded, with
the safety on, and with no magazine inserted. Brandishing of firearms
is prohibited by North Carolina law. It is unlawful for any person to
(a) point, hold, or brandish any firearm in such a manner as to
reasonably induce fear in the mind of another or (b) hold a firearm in
a public place in such a manner as to reasonably induce fear in the
mind of another being shot or injured. Do not engage in any horseplay,
demonstration of firing positions, or exchange of or other handling of
firearms at Guilford Courthouse Battleground Park, or any other
location or vehicle of transportation associated with this event. By
federal law, firearms are prohibited in federal facilities (defined by
federal law as a building or part thereof owned or leased by the
federal government, where federal employees are regularly present for
the purpose of performing their official duties). Do not transport a
loaded rifle or shotgun in any vehicle on any public street, road, or
highway during this event. Participants and attendees are not to
consume, possess, or be under the influence of alcohol or illegal
substances at this event.
This Meetup Group is sponsored byMama Grizzly T-Shirts Add
info@meetup.com to your address book to receive all Meetup emailsTo
manage your email settings for this group, click hereMeetup, PO Box
4668 #37895 New York, New York 10163-4668Meetup HQ in NYC is hiring!
http://www.meetup.com/jobs/

Be safe,
Bubba

"In God We Trust"

GOD BLESS YOU,
and
GOD BLESS AMERICA!

'If we ever forget that we're one nation under God, then we will be a
nation gone under.' - Ronald Reagan

A veteran is someone who, at one point in their life wrote a blank
check Made
Payable to 'The United States of America, ' for an amount of 'up to and
including their life.' That is Honor, and there are way too many
people in This
Country who no longer understand anything about honor.'

BuTi
(Bubba & Tita Hamm)

USofA: (352)

Panama Cell (T): 011-507-
Panama Cell (B): 011-507-

[chiak47]

For a successful revolution I'd think you'd need around 1/3 of the population to fight for your ideas (actually take up arms) and in the end be able to convince a majority to go along with you. In that I think the pro revolutionary side is along way from having the numbers.

Revolutions start and word spreads like fire. The problem is; is that the left is also pissed off so we would have to fight the state and the leftist revolution at the same time....It would be like the Russian revolution.

[chiak47]

My belief is too few revolutionaries pushing the majority ends in a communist Russia 1917 (or Chinese 1950) type revolution, probably with all the blood letting history tells us follows.

I should have scrolled down sooner...I guess we are on the same page.

[American Rage]

There won't be a revolution so much as a restoration.


Rage

[swampdragon]

I'd suppose that a lot of these statements would all hinge on the interpretation of the word "revolution," of which there are many.

A We the People against our own military in a full scale war head to head is suicide, not a Revolution.

And like already noted in this thread, we would not be seeking to replace one political system with another. The word "restoration" is actually more apropos.

[yankeedog]

There won't be a revolution so much as a restoration.


Rage

I like that.
My opnion is"WHERES THE OLD WHITE GUY"? Thats what its going to take to get around all this.
Most of what he will do is going to hurt, but it will turn out with the U.S. back on top, not like it was but fitting for the times and oppisite of the past badness the goverment let happen.
Now is the time to save up, get ready and prepare for the "fix".

[swampdragon]

I like that.
My opnion is"WHERES THE OLD WHITE GUY"? Thats what its going to take to get around all this.
Most of what he will do is going to hurt, but it will turn out with the U.S. back on top, not like it was but fitting for the times and oppisite of the past badness the goverment let happen.
Now is the time to save up, get ready and prepare for the "fix".

Which old white guy?
You mean like Jimmy Carter?
lol...

[HDR]

There is still a lot more, and I can go on and on...
Holy F*ckin' Crap.
Yep.
I still vote.
But it's gotten me nowhere in a big fast hurry.

Where is my representation?

0bama and the idiotic Craps woke a lot of people up; hopefully we shall see the results of the wake up call this election cycle.

When the Military loses ground they must take it back which isn't an overnight process. Now if they can't take it back, then they either lose or switch to other options.

[l921428x]

The political time is right. A lot of Amreicans are feed up and looking at what is happening with this administration. Remember that the pen is more powerful
than the sword, unless there is no hand or pen.

[O.S.O.K.]

Revolutions, historically, start with a very tiny number of people. They then grow from there.

Its just like a new product that, when introduced, is purchased by the pioneers. Then the next group of consumers buys the product and it builds from there.

This is basic marketing.

I think political upheaval works the same way as a new ipod introduction.

You have to have the pioneers that will take the risk first.

At least that's my take on this. May be my business degree talking but hey... if the shoe fits...

Now, as to the timing: I don't see anything happening until after this fall. A huge number of patriots are waiting to act (at the voting booth and such) and waiting to see the results. Then, if successful, we will wait for the new crop of congress critters to be sworn in and then wait to see just what they will do...

[swampdragon]

The political time is right. A lot of Amreicans are feed up and looking at what is happening with this administration. Remember that the pen is more powerful
than the sword, unless there is no hand or pen.

OK. But if the pen doesn't work......

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v648/Swampdragon/67f0767e.jpg

[HDR]

OK. But if the pen doesn't work......

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v648/Swampdragon/67f0767e.jpg


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zmidb92Hi-c&NR=1

That is served after this.

[Lysander]

If you're talking about a *Bang Bang* revolution, no.

Why?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i-gMMQTt5-c&feature

There's a technology and logistics gap so wide between modern "Patriots" and the current military that you'd get your asses handed to you before you even knew there was incoming.

If you mean a political revolution...hopefully, but we have to remember that revolutions start from the ground up. If you don't win the next generation, any gains you make today will be for naught in twenty years.

[American Rage]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i-gMMQTt5-c&feature

I'm hoping this works.

Rage

[swampdragon]

535

Black Ops

No war

[mriddick]

I think the relief valve Americans have is voting, but really rather then a shooting war we should be looking into Article 5 of the Constitution. Rather then 1/3 willing to fight you might need 15% that want to vote...